1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,200
This helped me so much.

2
00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:06,240
I played with my dad and we were able to talk through some of these topics that, you know,

3
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:07,840
we hadn't been able to before.

4
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,560
You know, my mom finally made her funeral plans.

5
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,880
I've been trying to get her to do that forever.

6
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:21,120
And I brought it into my favorite wine bar here in the LA area.

7
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,680
And this young couple said, oh, can you give us like a handful of questions?

8
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,520
We want to kind of go away and talk about.

9
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,080
So they took some of the cards and then they said, oh my God.

10
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,080
Okay.

11
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:40,160
So we've been putting off doing our, our trust because we were fighting over who to give guardianship of our kid.

12
00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:46,120
And so they had come to a decision after like,

13
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,280
wow, the cards prompted them.

14
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:55,240
And so, and then they just happened to be in a state attorney like sitting there at the bar.

15
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,440
Who is like, oh, are you interested?

16
00:00:58,520 --> 00:00:59,840
I'll give you my card right now.

17
00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:00,800
Meet with you Monday.

18
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,360
They ended up like making an appointment with this guy.

19
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:06,360
They had known each other.

20
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:12,280
Oh, yeah, that felt really good because I got to see it all unfold.

21
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:20,560
Usually it's like after the fact people will, you know, shoot me an email or something and tell me that the card helped them with their family.

22
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,640
But, but that was like action happening.

23
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:45,680
Hi there, grief growers.

24
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,400
I am so grateful to be here with you as always.

25
00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,480
If you've been growing alongside me in my work for a while, welcome back.

26
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,760
And if you are new to me and my work, hello.

27
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,520
My name is Shelby for Scythia.

28
00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:14,120
I am a grief coach, a three time author and the founder of life after loss Academy, which is an online course and community that has helped dozens of greeting people stop feeling lost, broken, alone in their grief, and start building lives that they genuinely love from the lives that lost forced them to live here on grief.

29
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:23,040
Gora, we know that loss includes not only death related losses, which is what most people think of when they think of grief, but also losses like divorce and break up, major diagnosis.

30
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:30,240
And every other loss or transition that changes your life here on the show, we believe that grief is not something we get over.

31
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:48,480
It is something that we grow with and alongside and that when we stop treating grief like a problem to be solved and start treating it like an invitation to live more deeply, we create meaningful lives that are rich with the memories that we carry all of the struggles that we faced and the preciousness of what it is to be right here right now.

32
00:02:49,320 --> 00:03:01,480
Today on the show, I am bringing you my conversation with Lisa Paul, the creator of the death deck, the end of life deck and the dementia deck, all card games for starting conversations around life's hardest moments together.

33
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,760
We talk about why learning more in grief is never a sign of failure.

34
00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:13,120
How playing cards can help you start hard conversations about end of life and death and how identifying as a learner can help you grow through grief.

35
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:26,440
And I'll mention this again at the end of the episode, but if you'd like to get 20% off of any of Lisa's card decks, you can enter the code grief 20 grif20 on her website, and I will provide a link to that in the show notes for this episode.

36
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,800
Here's Lisa's formal bio.

37
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:38,360
Lisa Paul is CEO of the death deck, a company that creates tools to inspire meaningful conversations on what matters most in our lives and in our deaths.

38
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:51,040
As a licensed clinical social worker accredited in hospice and palliative care with almost two decades of experience in hospice and seven years in emergency medicine, Lisa helps people cope with illness, dying and grief.

39
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:57,600
Lisa is also an expert contributor for help texts, which provides expert grief and mental health support via text messages.

40
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:05,080
She is also a volunteer with the Humane Prison Hospice Project, which provides palliative care training and support for incarcerated individuals.

41
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:15,720
With a passionate belief that peace at the end begins with meaningful conversations over time, Lisa engages people in talking about and preparing for this important stage of life.

42
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:27,920
Lisa, thank you so much for coming on grief grower today. I am so delighted to have you. And I think for people who don't know you, we were talking off mic of like some people are famous to us in our heads. And then we can't believe other people don't know who they are.

43
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:43,280
One of those people for me. So for people who have never interacted with you or heard of the death deck, the end of life deck, the dementia deck, tell us a bit about your lost story and how you got into creating card decks for life's most difficult conversations.

44
00:04:43,920 --> 00:05:06,360
Yeah, well, I'm excited to be here with you, Shelby. And I, you know, my lost story, it's interesting because my, I would say my lost story actually occurred after the creation of the decks. So in, in 2018, we created the death deck. And I created it with

45
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:29,040
Lori Lose's row and Lori had lost her husband. He died in his early 40s. And I was the hospital sugar that was supporting her through that process. And so we came together to try to create something that could help people have important conversations before a medical crisis or a terminal diagnosis.

46
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:40,440
And so at the time, I had had a lot of experience with, within hospice, supporting people from a professional viewpoint. And I had had grandparents die.

47
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:49,960
But I hadn't been intimately involved in anyone's care or, you know, a loss that just devastated me.

48
00:05:51,520 --> 00:06:09,880
And it was my, my first loss of that nature was my, my mother in law, K, she called me her daughter in love. And we had a really special relationship. And, and she died in August of 2020.

49
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:18,600
In the height of COVID, my husband and I were taking turns flying back and forth from California to stay with her.

50
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:27,240
While our son was younger and needed one of us here in California. So we were back and forth to Michigan.

51
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:46,040
And she taught me so much. I mean, she just like, I had all these ideas going into it that I was, you know, this grief informed person. And I understood death and dying. And I was there to make this like the best death that ever occurred. And, um,

52
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:54,640
she taught me that that was ridiculous and ego-centric. Okay, thanks for your service.

53
00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:01,000
It was very, a very humbling experience. And I really,

54
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:13,480
I mean, I think about it so often, just the ways in which I, you know, like many people in grief and in, you know,

55
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:27,360
dealing with someone with a serious illness, the intention was good. You know, I was thinking, I, I know all of these amazing legacy projects that we could do. I am, you know,

56
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:41,040
I want to make sure we know everything about everything that you want as you're dying. And I want you, and I really want to make some videos for my son, for my husband.

57
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,040
And it just wasn't, those weren't her priorities. She felt like

58
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:59,920
her whole life had been telling people how she felt about them. And she felt really content with the relationships that she had had. And she really just wanted to visit with people.

59
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:05,200
And eat really good food and

60
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:17,280
let each day unfold. Whereas I was like, you know, when are we going to do this video and all these things? So I think

61
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:27,400
when she died, it was, it was hard in the grief sense, but it was also hard in this like a moment of,

62
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:37,640
you know, I had, it wasted some time being stressed out about something that was my priority in that hers.

63
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,720
It's beautifully said. And I think that

64
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:49,400
that experience has shaped so much of how I try to

65
00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,560
show up now.

66
00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:58,560
You know, everyone's dying experience, everyone's grief

67
00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:03,840
is, is only theirs. And so we can't

68
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,440
you know, I have my worldview and the information that I have, but like

69
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:19,480
so what? Like, you know, it doesn't mean anything to someone else, right? So

70
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:25,720
yeah, I, I, I owe a lot to Kay in terms of

71
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:34,760
I mean, she taught me so many lessons through my life and then in her job. So I'm very grateful for her. She's actually

72
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:43,760
the fuchsia plant here. So this tattoo is a memorial tattoo of all the favorite flowers in my life of people who have died and she's the fuchsia

73
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:49,720
fantastic and I just wrote it as a like, you know, feeling closer.

74
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,600
I love that. And fuchsia's

75
00:09:52,600 --> 00:10:01,640
to me, they look like little tiny ballerinas, like little, little colorful skirts. And then they don't pop open really till they're ready to

76
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:08,240
pop open. They look like little little raspberries on a dangling stick. And then suddenly they're just like, pal, and they're so fun.

77
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:13,200
Just so fun. There's so there's such random colors. It's like this pink and purple and

78
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:20,760
it's nature. Yeah. This is, I forgot you the flower girl. So of course you

79
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,360
tell you a little bit about fuchsia. I love this like

80
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:37,480
this doorway in to learning even more about grief, loss, death and dying because you're like, I knew this stuff. I did it for work. I

81
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:45,640
I was adjacent to a friend and then co-founders major loss. And then that resulted in this first deck of cards that you made together. But then

82
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:54,160
you're like, and then I had my own. And then I realized there was more to learn. Yeah. And I think in grief sometimes we can see

83
00:10:55,560 --> 00:11:05,600
this message in front of our eyeballs of like, oh, you have more to learn as being a failure in some way. Or that you didn't try hard enough or you didn't know enough.

84
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:14,520
Or there was something wrong about the situation. But I wonder, looking back on it now, I know we're six years out. But, but how do you look back on it?

85
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,720
Through an alternative lens.

86
00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:33,040
Yeah. I mean, when you said that what came to mind was I've had the opportunity to supervise social work interns and

87
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:44,240
and then social workers who are getting their licensure. And one of the like criteria that were evaluating social workers on is

88
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,600
if they identify as learners. And so you're coming like instead of just

89
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:57,560
thinking you already know everything. And and I think what

90
00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:06,640
what I learned through that experience was that, you know, that that is through true throughout life.

91
00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:21,120
And that if we identify as learners as people who are curious and we show up with curiosity and compassion and with the desires to learn,

92
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:33,640
rather that's to learn about a person to learn about, you know, what what they hope will happen is they're approaching end of life or whether that's just to be open to

93
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:45,440
the possibilities of being wrong, you know, being just proven sometimes with the ideas that I have, you know, like one of the common things is it's people

94
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:55,960
always think, oh, it's better to die at home. And it's not always better to buy a home, you know, there are a lot of situations where that's just not

95
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:10,640
that wouldn't necessarily be the best, the best thing determined by the dying person even. And so I think when I look back, I, I

96
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:20,880
realized that that was the little kick in the butt that I needed to

97
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:36,200
to really latch on to the idea of being a learner and being curious and constantly reading more books like your great book and learning from that. I mean, you could, you can, you can

98
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:44,080
nerd out on grief, you can nerd out on death, you know, and and I think that there's

99
00:13:46,560 --> 00:14:03,560
there's so much when we approach life that way as learners open to that we, we know some things. There's a lot more to learn. Yes. And thank you for taking that detour with me because it's a,

100
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:14,760
it's a really beautiful reminder of like why this podcast exists in the first place, the first episode I ever did is like, what does it mean to be a grief grower? Because like, why are we calling ourselves this? What does it mean?

101
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:28,000
And a big component of it is acknowledging that grief is a forever thing. It sticks with you. It looks different over time, but part of it as an identity being a griver forever is being willing to

102
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:43,480
notice and be interested and be curious about to your words, like how your grief shifts and changes with time how it shifts and changes with the world's grief, how it changes with the seasons or new losses or new information about old losses, like there's all these different ways it can change.

103
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,240
And I think society has this awful

104
00:14:46,240 --> 00:15:06,280
misive or message for us that if we're learning new information about something, especially after the fact that we failed or we should have cut a what had done better or we didn't have enough information or something about us was wrong as opposed to this is what it is to be alive.

105
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:19,000
Literally the cliche of like you live in your learn it's like no, but really you really actually do live in your learn and then sometimes you grieve in your learn. And so I just love that this is a part of your experience is like creating

106
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:30,720
The death deck like with the knowledge that you had and then creating your other decks with even more information with even more wisdom and acknowledging like I have this as well. I'm like my books.

107
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:45,440
I don't know it at the time how they're going to be imperfect, but when they're in the world, someone will tell me what they are missing what I have forgotten what I didn't know at the time or I'll learn it for myself and be like, dang, I wish I would have put that in one of my things I made or released to the world.

108
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:57,320
And there's a difference between seeing it as having failed in some way and then having learned in some way and then with the next iteration, you know more you do better, the goals to do better.

109
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:09,160
And then as a result that ripple effect is the people who receive the work you create no better do better. So I'm going to use that as a segue to get into the decks introduce us to now three decks that you've created.

110
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:28,360
The death deck, the end of life deck and the newest one is the dementia deck. Why decks like why decks of cards instead of like a book or brochure or a podcast or why that medium and then tell us maybe what exactly therefore I think we can guess with the names, but especially for people who have not heard of these before I love.

111
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:58,160
Like a little tour guide through each of them. Sure. Yeah. I went just to Jess when they, you know, there is so much second guessing in grief. Like it's so hard. And everyone's second guess was, you know, I've worked as a hospital worker almost 20 years and done so many bereavement calls and talking to families after the fact and, you know, it's common to have that second guessing.

112
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:18,440
And sometimes I will have family members tell me I really wish, you know, I wish my mom would have come on the house. But sooner I wish, you know, we would have gotten more support sooner or I wish we had had these conversations ahead of time. So I knew what they, you know, what my mom would want. And, you know,

113
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:29,440
and then I share with them as gently and appropriate as I can. But, you know, you still have the opportunity for everyone else in your life. Right. And so

114
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:44,280
sometimes those regrets about a personal death and how the effects of how it occurred and some of those things like there will be other people in your life who die. And that information can become so valuable for

115
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:57,560
how you can support differently, how you can like advocate for hospice earlier, like all of these things. Of course, it's not always right away that we can come to that point.

116
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,760
But it can help to feel like it's like

117
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:12,200
it's not all lost. Those things you learned are still important. Yeah.

118
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:18,760
And the use. So our decks. So this is the death. Yeah. Show a tell of grief.

119
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,760
Growers come if you're listening to the podcast, come pause it and watch it on YouTube for a minute. So you can see that. So we, so the

120
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:37,560
death. That has our little scully guy. This was created in 2018. And this was the first deck that we created. And so my former business partner, her name's Lori.

121
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:45,400
And her husband's name is Joe. And so we created the deck that Lori wish she could have played with Joe. And so

122
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:59,560
we decided to create a game that uses multiple choice questions and humor. And basically we were thinking, how do we get people who don't want to talk about death to talk about death?

123
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:11,320
Well, maybe if we game a fire, maybe if we turn it into, you know, instead of cards against humanity, it's cards about death, right? And we're, we're just

124
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:22,840
looking at all things death related. And so some other questions are specifically advanced care planning questions, questions about like what you would want for your own

125
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:40,680
death or disposition of your body, you know, how you feel about burial, cremation, human composting those things. And then some of the questions are just like part of the questions. So the idea being that there's lots of different ways that people can enter into the conversation.

126
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,760
And and to lighten up about the topic.

127
00:19:46,280 --> 00:20:15,000
This isn't a game to play new in grief necessarily. This is a game to play when, when you want others to get more comfortable talking about death and dying. I mean, I always, I completely feel like we can't be good at supporting people in grief if we're uncomfortable with death. Like it's just, it's so hard to show up for people in grief.

128
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,960
If we can talk about death and dying, right?

129
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,440
Well, um,

130
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:28,720
The death that is is meant to be a game to start those conversations. And then in 2023, we created the E.O.L.

131
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:36,560
DAC, which had a little koala on it. So she's a little, um, a little more sensitive, a little cuter.

132
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:56,440
The E.O.L. DAC was designed specifically for people with serious illness and, um, or advanced age. So people who are approaching him. So instead of having all these fun questions that are, um, you know, about everything death related. These are very specific questions about

133
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:02,480
How do you feel about touch as you're declining? How do you feel about having visitors?

134
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,760
How much information do you want about your disease progression?

135
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:08,400
Mm hmm.

136
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,000
Not so this one really gets into your end of life preferences.

137
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:22,920
And then the dementia deck, I just released in September with, um, compassion and choices. And so we,

138
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:29,920
this is a tool to help people talk through the type of care and treatment they would want if they were living with dementia.

139
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:37,640
So the idea of this working with so many hospice families and my grandma had dementia for 10 years.

140
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,800
Um,

141
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:55,720
people are always asking, what can I do so that I don't end up in the same situation as my dad, um, who maybe was completely bound and dependent for five years, 10 years.

142
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:04,040
And while we can't necessarily prevent dementia or totally, um,

143
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:12,320
there are decisional moments that arise for family members and talking about what you would want.

144
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:18,880
If you're living with dementia, it can help your family members have some confidence to make those decisions on your behalf.

145
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:25,240
Whether that's living as long as possible because that's your value system and what you think about it.

146
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:44,600
Um, or whether it's living as short a time as possible, um, and making decisions that are related to, you know, caring for a person, but when those medical decisions come out, that they're going to make decisions that are more aligned with that viewpoint.

147
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:54,880
Yes. And, and the person's definition of like what with a full life or a good life look like to you and only you can answer that question for yourself.

148
00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:06,840
I love it. I'm going to read through just really quickly, um, this I found on your website, grief growers, you can go to the deathdeck.com to find all three of the decks, but to kind of get a feel for like how the questions differ between them.

149
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:14,720
So the death deck is like the first and probably the funniest of them. Um, but one of my favorite questions is fact you're going to die.

150
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,520
How often do you think about this and then it's a B or C a says often, but I try not to completely obsess about it.

151
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:34,600
B is enough. Sometimes it makes me worry and sometimes appreciate life and then see rarely I'm too busy living, which is so funny. And if I were to answer that, I would say often, but not, but this is where the conversation opens up.

152
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,320
I think about my own death often, not in a way of I'm terrified to go anywhere, but I use it as a motivator to get things done.

153
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:50,520
My mother's, um, one of her big griefs, uh, before her death, it was feeling I shouldn't get to finish everything she wanted to do before she died. She got the news. She was dying and then she died in seven days.

154
00:23:50,760 --> 00:24:00,440
And so the timeline in there was very short and she got a lot of shit done in seven days, which is more than, than I can say for other folks who've experienced even more seven losses.

155
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:07,200
Um, but there was a lot in life that she didn't get to do. And so I'm very much a person of like, you really do not know when you're going to die.

156
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:16,120
And you could die tomorrow as my friend Kate Mancer says. Um, and so you better do your stuff today. It's what motivated me to put so many books out in the world.

157
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:19,840
Because I'm like, I don't know when I'm going to go and I need people to know this before I before I go.

158
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:35,320
Um, but that's kind of the way it's phrased is funny. And it's also about the question of mortality. Um, the end of life deck, which is questions for preparing for the end of life or reaching the end of your life, whether a terminal diagnosis or old age or both.

159
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:43,600
Um, an example would be in your final days, what would you like to smell? A B or C? A is my favorite foods like fresh baked cookies or coffee.

160
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:53,200
B is calming sense like lavender rose or sandalwood and C is fresh air from an open window. And why do I like about this too is there's a hidden invitation to write in your own response.

161
00:24:53,200 --> 00:25:02,160
So if you're like none of the above D none of the above. Um, there's definitely an option to write in your own and back to the flowers. I'm like, oh, free.

162
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:18,240
Oh, Jasmine, ooh, like some gardenia heavy, sentive willy of the valley if it's March or April. Um, would feel great to me. But yeah, whatever it is not hospital like that. That's one of the big smells that I hate of like alcohol or antiseptic or latex gloves.

163
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:25,640
Like I just don't like any of those smells. So answering these for myself as we go. Um, and then the last one that I'll read from the dementia deck.

164
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:35,160
The idea of being dependent on others dot dot dot a B or C. A doesn't worry me. I've taken care of family and I know they'll do the same for me.

165
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:43,920
B terrifies me. I hate the idea of losing control or C makes me feel guilty. I don't want to be a burden. And I don't know that I have a clear answer for this yet.

166
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,760
Because I do know that I have people in my life who would take care of me. But I also, um,

167
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:59,880
value independent so much this goes back to that question of like what defines a good life for you and being mobile and like on the go and like public transit all over Chicago. Like that's a high value for me.

168
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:10,640
So I don't know that I would feel guilty or like a burden, but I think I'd be bummed out. But that's that's my like B and C answer. Um, but I think there are people who would say, hey, totally.

169
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:21,840
I don't worry about being dependent on others because sometimes or I have this belief that it'll all come back around or I've saved so much for retirement and nursing care that I can afford it or whatever that whatever the answer may be.

170
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:33,720
And so grief goes, you can see like the different flavors of questions that exist even more deeply with any each of these decks. And I think each of them have like 100 and something questions. Am I right?

171
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:53,360
The deck has a 12 question. Okay. That's our bigger, bigger one. The EOL deck is is 50 and then the dementia deck is 42. So I um, yeah, and I like how you answered all of the questions. I think, you know,

172
00:26:54,080 --> 00:27:12,080
we use the multiple choice to give ideas and a line with those ideas, but often it turns into I'm between B and C, like you said, or a little bit of that, a little bit of that or all of the above or a completely different answer. And um,

173
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:23,360
And I always will share with people will of course we're not we're not expecting that you will always align with whatever I randomly came up with, right? But um,

174
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:44,360
but their conversation starter. So, you know, to have some conversations and I've also had people use the decks as as almost journal prompts to just be kind of thinking and reflecting on their own wishes and desires and what's important to them.

175
00:27:45,960 --> 00:28:02,960
And you know, because we don't all have family and friends that are open to having these conversations and even when we want to. And what I've encouraged people to do is, you know, you can go through the questions on your own.

176
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:24,600
You can also like stack the deck and which is what I always encourage people to do, which is basically like choose the cards that you think will play best to the group you're going to play with. Oh, sure. That was going to be my next question of like, how do you introduce this into like a family or a friend group maybe that has never talked about death or end of life before and then suddenly you're like, let's play a game.

177
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:32,800
How do you how do you roll that out or what are some ways to roll that out so it's not so scary. So one of the things that I

178
00:28:33,800 --> 00:29:01,800
encourage people, especially if their family is less reluctant is use a situation in which you're the guest of honor and then you get to say what is done. So, you know, Mother's Day is coming up. You could say, you know what, you all have been of rating me like talking about this topic. I think it's really important as I'm getting older. And we're going to play the death act today. And that's what we're going to do because it's Mother's Day.

179
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:12,800
Same goes for birthday. It can be, you know, on Thanksgiving. I'm hosting. And so I say, this is what we're going to do after our Thanksgiving meal.

180
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:25,800
So using for people who are, you know, for families who are a little bit more like reluctant. That's one of my suggestions. The other really is to

181
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:50,800
with all the decks, there's questions that are more abstract like thoughts like, what do you think about this topic? Those are easier entry points than like, think about yourself dying. What do we want? You know, those are harder to get to. So I encourage people to start from like further out and then kind of work your way in.

182
00:29:53,800 --> 00:30:22,800
And again, like we all know, we know our people for the most part. And so either removing the cards that you think that's going to turn them off or like, that one's about religion and we fight about that topic. So I'm going to like take that one out. So you can, you can really kind of create the, you can kind of create the experience based on the cards that you choose.

183
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:46,800
But it's life. So, you know, someone might say something that's completely surprising and take you off on a completely different topic. And, you know, but one of the other benefits that I have found playing in all these different settings is the connection that you feel with people when you're talking about real topics.

184
00:30:47,800 --> 00:31:03,800
And I'm sure you experienced that all the time here on the podcast, but like, you feel really close to people when you're talking about topics related to life and death and topics that you don't get a chance to talk about very much that are held pretty tight.

185
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:16,800
It's really good relationship builders. I have people reach out and say that they bring them on there like third date and kind of use them as a litmus test of like, do we agree?

186
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:25,800
Enough on some of these topics, which, you know, I love that idea of bringing it on a third date.

187
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,800
Yes, I, well, my wife and I joke that we had the longest first date ever and then the longest second date ever.

188
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:43,800
When we met, we met at the Canadian United States border because the borders were closed during COVID and the only place you could meet was at the border where it was possible for both of you to go home at the end of the day.

189
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:56,800
And our first date was nine hours. We had a picnic and played more not really strangers, which is another card game of like question asking and card games have now just become a staple of our relationship, which I think is true for many people.

190
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:06,800
But our second date was her helping me locate from Washington state to Chicago. And so it was a road trip. It was across the course of several weeks that we were together and we did the New York Times.

191
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:20,800
I think it's 33 questions to fall in love or something like that. And it's like, if you ask these questions of a stranger and we weren't strangers by that point, but you have these questions of a stranger and then at the end, you spend two full minutes staring into each other's eyes, you're supposed to be able to fall in love.

192
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:35,800
It's like psychologically proven and it goes from like, what's your favorite childhood memory? Like at one of the beginning ones to like, what's your relationship with your dad and like one of the more intense ones are like, what's the thing on your bucket list would be one of the lighter ones. And then like, what do you?

193
00:32:36,800 --> 00:33:02,800
If you're leaving behind when you die is like one of the deeper ones. And so it has this scale from easier, more softball questions to like really deep and philosophical ones. But I think yeah, absolutely, if it's your birthday for hosting a dinner party, if you're going on a road trip, if you host like community or mutual aid nights or like benefits or things in your in your neighborhood or even a book club, like skip the book one month and like do the death deck or the end of life deck or the dementia deck.

194
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:24,800
And it's it's wild to me and I love this as a as a prompt for deeper thinking because like I have such good friends and family members in my life and I will know the secret story of the one CD that my friend stole from her sister when she was in middle school, but I have no idea how she wants to die.

195
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:47,800
And one of those things already happened and one of those things is going to happen. And to your point, the connection, the depth, the clarity, the relationship building that I would get from that is one thing, but then the actual like if and when that day comes and it's her turn before me, like I would love to know how to better take care of her in that or through that.

196
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:59,800
I don't know if we all have but my friend group certainly has like we hope to get old like the golden girls and like all the not in support each other, but I'm like I have no idea what that means really for any of us other than we like the idea of living in a sitcom.

197
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:17,800
And so even even being this every fall we have a like a vacation we take together for five days, we just hold up in a cabin and read and play board games and watch movies and make meals with each other, like even just setting this in the middle of the table and just leaving it there in the whole time and seeing what people dig through and what they ask each other.

198
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:26,800
Like I'm about to do this. I'm about to do this with my friend group because yeah, we can know each other's deepest dark it's secrets, but we don't know how we want to die.

199
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:42,800
And that is so so crucial and it's one of the biggest things I think that not just grieving people, but like everyone regrets not knowing in in someone's final days or even after their death, like how do they want to be remembered and sometimes the answer is I don't know.

200
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:54,800
And so we have to invent our own ways of remembering them, but we don't always know if it's what they would want. And so like what a gift to have this clarity before the crisis actually happens before the death actually happens.

201
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,800
I have a question for you, but that's just all my feedback related to that.

202
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:10,800
Well, first of all, I need to get my friend group to go away for five days and like that sounds magical. I'm actually part of a book club for 20 years.

203
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,800
Two years now.

204
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,800
Wow. 23? I think we just hit 23 years.

205
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:33,800
And so it's this wonderful group of women and we came together in our 20s, late 20s and then yeah, now we're all like 50 and still together.

206
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:48,800
The richness that comes from having like conversations about dev, I think there's so many surprises like of these things that you don't know about each other like you were saying.

207
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:54,800
But one of the other ways to play the dot deck is to partner up and cast each other's answers.

208
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:08,800
And we have hosted some game nights with couples and I've hosted game nights with friends, you know, people who are girlfriends who are, you know, just know each other really well.

209
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:15,800
The girlfriends usually do quite a bit better than the couple.

210
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:37,800
So something worth knowing it is something worth knowing and I think that I think that one of the things that is important about that is if you have chosen your partner to be your healthcare decision maker and they are put in charge of those things.

211
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:56,800
And yet your girlfriend actually knows you better in some ways because of the type of conversations you have with that person, you know, it's worth kind of digging into that because your partner may not always be the best person to make decisions on your behalf.

212
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:22,800
You know, sometimes that's because the emotions are too high, sometimes it's because you're afraid like they won't let you go if, if needed or or they may not be very good advocates or they're really shut down about having conversations with you about the topic because it's too hard for them to think about it.

213
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:43,800
Those are all, you know, kind of, I would say yellow flags that maybe it's worth kind of looking into for that moment of your life having a friend be a decision maker rather than a partner for those reasons.

214
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:52,800
But you have to tell you got to make sure you tell the partner.

215
00:37:52,800 --> 00:38:08,800
I've been in situations where because I worked in the ER for eight years to an event in situations where another person comes in with an advanced objective but the spouse wasn't aware that this other person was the decision maker.

216
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:16,800
That can get a little hairy. Then it turns into like a TV drama.

217
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:24,800
Yeah, yeah, then we're on the pit where you know, calling security or whatever.

218
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:37,800
Yeah, I want to know, especially as you've talked about hosting nights with couples and with friends and then other instances or stories like what have been some of your favorite outcomes of people using any of these decks.

219
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:46,800
Or like stories that you've heard or witnessed yourself of people bringing these decks into conversations with friends or family.

220
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,800
Yeah, we've, you know, we've gotten some great feedback.

221
00:38:52,800 --> 00:39:06,800
And people leaving really heartfelt reviews of like, you know, this helped me so much I play with my dad and we were able to talk through some of these topics that, you know, we hadn't been able to be for.

222
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:28,800
You know, my mom finally made her funeral plans. I've been trying to get her to do that forever. And I brought them to my, my favorite wine bar here in the LA area and was asking people questions just at the bar.

223
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:36,800
And this young couple said, oh, can you give us like a handful of questions? We want to kind of go away and talk about.

224
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:46,800
We want to get in this conversation on our own. So they took some of the cards and then they said, then they came back after an hour or so.

225
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:59,800
And the woman was like super excited and she said, oh my god. Okay, so we've been putting off doing our trust because we were fighting over who to give guardianship of our kid.

226
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:07,800
And so they had come to a decision after like one of the cards prompted them.

227
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:16,800
And then they just happened to be in a state attorney like sitting there at the bar who is like, oh, are you interested?

228
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,800
I give you my card right now. Meet with you Monday.

229
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:25,800
They ended up like making an appointment with this guy. They had known each other.

230
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:39,800
So yeah, that felt really good because I got to see it all unfold. Usually it's like after the fact people will shoot me an email or something and tell me that the card helped them with their family.

231
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,800
But that was like action happening.

232
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,800
Start to finish in less than a few hours. That's incredible.

233
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:59,800
I absolutely love it. Have you made going back to our conversation earlier about when you know better, you do better and there's not really such a thing as failure when you're learning about grief.

234
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:09,800
Have you made any changes to the death deck, the EOL deck, the dementia deck like as you've learned more or partnered with different people to create the questions?

235
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:24,800
Yeah, we made some changes to the death deck. We've made several early on. We had a couple of questions that push the limits too much.

236
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:36,800
It both Lori and I found ourselves not asking that question when we were like playing the game with other people, we would skip over it.

237
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:46,800
It was a question about suicide, which we then changed to what celebrity suicide has impacted you the most.

238
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:59,800
It was more of a question about your thoughts on suicide and it was just a little too triggering for a card. We decided not to continue with the question.

239
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:09,800
I think that was the only one that was like, we felt like we really kind of missed the mark in the first printing.

240
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:19,800
We've made some updates because human composting wasn't necessarily a thing when we first started the deck.

241
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:29,800
So it can be dirt or a tree if you like. Right. Right. So there's been a couple more, you know, a couple advancements in death, if you will. Sure. Yes.

242
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:40,800
Well, and I live in a state. I live in Illinois, but there's talk all the time, at least here in the US about medical aid and dying as a potential option for end of life care.

243
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:52,800
And it's true in some countries. It's not true in others and it's becoming true or it seems every day. And so I imagine that would be an element of the question asking to have like if this is an option.

244
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,800
Do you want to pursue it?

245
00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:03,800
Yes. We have questions about medical aid and dying and both that you will take in the deck.

246
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:14,800
Yeah, that's very cool. I love knowing that and it's a permission slip to keep growing and changing as the world of death and end of life keeps growing and changing.

247
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:21,800
There are questions I think that can be evergreen of like this could always be significant when it comes to somebody dying or important to ask.

248
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:36,800
And then there's just like the way in which we die or the conversations we have about, yeah, end of life care in our country and beyond that change the way the deck is written and shared.

249
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:47,800
Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the next printing of the deck will include some AI questions or I might even do a supplemental.

250
00:43:47,800 --> 00:44:06,800
Of just like 20 25 more questions to add because there's now we have AI and so much digital aspect of like planning ahead that isn't really we yeah wasn't really a thing in 2018.

251
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:23,800
Yes, and I have friends and family members are like if you dare create like an AI hologram representation for me I will haunt you and I have other people who are like sure put my voice into chat GPT all right a song with you and I'm like oh my gosh this is so.

252
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,800
Also not who I was expecting to say different things which is really funny.

253
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:38,800
But also as a person who creates things on the internet I'm like I'll leave you with with with what I would like to leave you with I'm in the don't create a hologram of me camp.

254
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:51,800
Yeah, but yeah, I know for sure there are people who are like saving voice memos with the intention of having them turn into a whole it's possible for them to read their grandchildren stories with the use of AI in their voice which is wild to me.

255
00:44:51,800 --> 00:45:03,800
So yeah, it's I mean it's changing every day and it sounds like your deck and and kind of your social media platform and the work that you do to get the word out about these conversations is is morphing along with it.

256
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,800
Again, never failure just just more learning more information more questions worth asking.

257
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:36,800
Yeah, absolutely you know if we and you know just thinking about this podcast and how in five years listening to this podcast of us like talking about AI and grief and in five years oh my god it'll be so different than like what I thought are now you know because of the ways in which all this is changing so.

258
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,800
This will probably feel really sweet that we're talking about.

259
00:45:40,800 --> 00:46:03,800
Yeah, I'm a little afraid of that future yeah, well as we wrap up our conversation today tell people I think I mentioned the website already but tell people where they can find all of the decks and then I'm going to write a blog that corresponds with this podcast about how to have hard conversations about death and of life and dementia and definitely talk about you and all three of the decks throughout so tell people where they can find you.

260
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:31,800
If you're working if they are ready to buy a deck yeah well thank you again shall we for having me on and being a community with the grief growers I you can find me at the death deck calm you can also follow me on social media at the death deck it is me so anytime you're reaching out I am the person that you're hearing back from and yeah and you can also email me at Lisa at the death.

261
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:48,800
I love it Lisa thank you so much for coming on grief grower reminding us what it is to be a grief grower I would love yearly reminders or more often and for creating these decks for really making it so much easier to have hard conversations about the hardest things of our lives.

262
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:56,800
Thank you again for having me.

263
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:14,800
That's all for this episode of grief grower thank you so much for joining me and Lisa today again if you'd like to get 20% off any or all of the card decks we mentioned today just enter code grief 20 griif20 on her website the death deck calm you can find a link to that in the show notes.

264
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:33,800
If you're looking for grief support beyond the show you can also find free workshops blog articles and my new book of course I'm here right now three actually helpful things to say to someone grieving at shall be for sitya dot calm slash links and if you'd like to get support for me for your unique loss experience you can join me at any time in life after loss academy.

265
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:56,800
You get my five step grief framework for rebuilding after loss plus live coaching with me every single week to answer your questions if this podcast help validating comforting educational or otherwise helpful to you please subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify and be sure to share grief grower with a friend because you never know what someone you love is going through or what kind of card game they might like to play.

266
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:11,800
Grief grower is hosted by me shall be for sitya with the music by Addy Goldstein until next time grief growers I see you I am so proud of you and the work that you're doing in the world and I love you because even through grief we are growing.

267
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,800
[Music]