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Welcome back to Communication Breakdown, a weekly podcast from the Observatory on Corporate

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Reputation.

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Thanks for joining us.

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I'm Steve Dowling in Silicon Valley.

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And I'm Craig Carroll in New York City.

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Each week, Steve and I take a look at strategies, companies are using to shape headlines, and

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sometimes save their skins.

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It's a post-game show for PR Pros.

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This week, the legal community splits over Trump's attacks.

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And the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

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With apologies to the Royal Shakespeare Company, that's Henry VI, part two, a mob of commoners

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railing against the ruling class.

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Or what today some might call the deep state.

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Five and a half centuries after the wars of the roses, lawyers are still in the crosshairs,

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at least when it comes to this Trump White House.

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The president has been swiping his black sharpie marker against white shoe law firms for

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evoking security clearances and threatening their federal contracts through a series of executive

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orders.

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And in a broader memo, Trump directs the Justice Department to seek sanctions against firms

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if I would he calls frivolous and vexatious litigation against the government.

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Vaxatious, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

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Trump's broadside against the bar is widely seen as an effort to undermine the legal

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profession and bully prominent law firms who might challenge his populist agenda.

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And of course, some of the executive orders are straight up retribution against firms who

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have hired critics of the president.

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What's remarkable about this campaign, and I think most relevant to our podcast today,

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is how the targeted law firms have responded.

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Of the eight we know about right now, four of them, Paul Weiss, Skadden Arps, Willkie Farr

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and Milbank, some with lengthy memos have capitulated rather than face sanctions, pledging

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tens of millions of dollars in pro bono work on behalf of initiatives aligned with Trump.

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And that has not gone over well with the legal community, including some partners at those

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firms.

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The other four, Perkins Coie, Wilmer Hale, Jenner & Block, and Covington & Burling, they've

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chosen to fight in federal court, which is kind of their home turf.

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And perhaps not surprisingly, judges so far have been siding with the lawyers, calling Trump's

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directives disturbing and reprehensible and most importantly, unconstitutional.

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Steve, like so many of the fights that Trump is picking right now, we know this one is probably

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going to end up with a supreme court.

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But what are we learning from the initial responses?

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I think what stands out to me is how similar the communications we've seen from these capitulating

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firms are to the communications we've seen from some of the companies surrendering on diversity

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over the past several months.

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And in fact, diversity has been one of the things the White House has been using to push

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around these law firms.

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Let's look at how this played out.

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I think the most important episode was the Paul Weiss firm and they were the first to

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give in.

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And their concessions to Trump, I think really hit like an earthquake.

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It came out on a Thursday.

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Trump announced he was rescinding his executive order because Paul Weiss had agreed to change

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their hiring practices and do $40 million in pro bono work, who causes in line with Trump's

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priorities.

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And they were immediately criticized by many in the legal community.

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Then it wasn't until Sunday that the CEO of Paul Weiss sent this 1600 word memo trying

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to explain how they had to do this.

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It was an existential threat.

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They know people aren't happy with it.

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But you know, of course some of these changes were already in the works.

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Others have said that as well.

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They're still committed to diversity, they say.

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So they didn't get ahead of it.

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They gave the White House the PR win, which I'm sure was the main part of the calculus there.

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They let Trump make the announcement for them.

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You know, that's a peep of mine.

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And the other three firms who have since given in also, they largely followed this pattern.

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Milbanks CEO said they only made commitments.

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They were happy to make.

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But the criticism has been really strong.

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Firms have already lost a few partners.

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I've got to believe that's going to continue.

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And as we've seen, it's no guarantee that they won't be targeted again by this protection

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racket approach.

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You can just ask Disney and Harvard and others are learning that lesson the hard way.

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Yeah, what striking here is just that firms like Paul Weiss and Mill bank cut deals.

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It's how they communicated or more accurately didn't communicate.

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They let the White House announce the deal.

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They responded slowly.

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And when they did speak, it was a long defensive message.

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It was designed to manage internal backlash and not manage external perceptions.

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And I would say that response pattern mirrors exactly what we've seen from companies back

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peddling on DEI delay, denial, damage control and always a promise that these changes were

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already in motion as if that is going to neutralize the reputational impact.

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But it doesn't because when you're when you're surrendering narrative control like this,

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especially to a White House that's using policies of pressure campaign, you know, just

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lose the story.

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You set the president and I don't know that's that's what Paul Weiss exactly did.

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They made it easier for you know, for other law firms to follow suit quite cautiously and

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harder to stand up without looking confrontational.

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Yeah.

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And it's hard to read the Paul Weiss memo from the Sunday.

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Three days after the announcement had been made.

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It's harder to read as anything other than, you know, reactive.

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They clearly did not have this planned out and you have to wonder like what did you

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think was going to happen that you think that it was just you were just going to be able

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to do this and let the White House announce it.

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These huge questions that come out of what Trump has been calling settlements and not

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settlements, but he's been referring to them that way.

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Like that just that alone makes it feel like you know, these are like these are lawyers,

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right?

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Yeah.

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These are lawyers and you're using you're losing lawyers language in incorrectly.

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I wonder what the calculation was there that they could just sort of let it go and people

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wouldn't ask, well, what is this pro bono work you're going to be doing this 40 million dollars

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worth of pro bono?

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Right.

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Which by the way, now pales in comparison because three other firms have pledged a hundred

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million dollars.

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So, but back to your point, I read the Paul Weiss memo really has like defeatist.

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Yeah.

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It was, yeah.

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And certainly the government's out to get us.

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Other lawyers aren't coming to our aid.

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They kind of set it up like they are an island.

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And the best spin that they had is I read it was.

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They lived to compromise another day and that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, I think.

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And they talked about values, but they didn't really stand up for them.

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The pattern here is now familiar, a hundred million dollars in pro bono pledges, a public

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rejection of DEI and a performative alignment statement.

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And this time posted by Trump himself.

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Now, why does this matter for us?

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Well, as communicators, well, partly because Trump isn't just targeting legal arguments.

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He's targeting affiliations, clients, even hiring practices.

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And that's a reputational risk vector.

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It's not just a legal one.

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So you know, if you're a CCO or general counsel, you know, the question is, do you know how your

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law firm is positioning itself right now?

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And are you prepared to communicate if your firm becomes part of the story?

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And do you have alignment between legal and communications on how you respond?

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Because when legal independence becomes a political flashpoint, your silence is no longer

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neutral.

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Your affiliation then becomes the narrative.

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The opposite of that, I thought was gender and block.

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Yeah.

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And I think they have been the strongest communicators in this episode.

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They filed their lawsuit the day after Trump's executive order and they had a website going

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live at the same time.

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It's called, "Gener stands firm."

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I think it encouraged people to check it out at jeneraffirm.com.

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It's got their statement, their filings, links to supportive editorials, a couple of one

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pages, which I really like.

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These are resources that are really handy for reporters.

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You look at the website, they draw attention, you know, the editorial board from the Wall Street

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Journal, the Chicago Bar Association.

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You know, so even with the Wall Street Journal editorial board weighing in, that's not a

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group known for pearl clutching, right?

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They said, "Using power to punish firms for representing clients breaks the cornerstone

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principle of American justice going back to John Adams and the founders."

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That's not legal commentary.

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That's constitutional history.

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And when they're saying this has gone too far, it tells you this isn't about the left or

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right, it's about the rule of law versus the rule of power.

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This is the kind of legal communication that meets the moment.

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They're not just litigating in court, they're narrating in public.

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They're doing it in a way that's accessible.

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You know, you don't need to have a JD to follow the logic.

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That matters because right now, the government is going to have a JD.

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Now, the clarity of your position is your positioning.

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It's not written in legal ease.

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And that's a really, you know, critical part of communicating this because, and maybe this

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was a calculation that Paul Weiss is making.

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I don't know, but if you think that something like this is going to remain sort of contained

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within your community, at this scale, I think you're really making a miscalculation.

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So hats off to a general block for being prepared to go public and doing a good job at it.

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Yeah, Jinner moved fast.

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Not just legally, you know, they showed what it looks like when your comms team and legal

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team are rowing in the same direction, you know, that the lawsuit and the narrative launched

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together, that's rare and it's powerful.

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You know, honestly, you know, if you're a chief comms officer or general counsel watching

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this play out, I think Jinner just gave you a master class in how to frame a principled

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stand, fast, clean, and media ready.

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They had some time to prepare, which I think is good.

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Clearly they were gearing up for this during whatever negotiations they had with the White

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House.

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And yeah, I think this is a really critical part of doing PR for legal, making it understandable

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to every day, humans, which reporters generally are.

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And yeah, the comms department needs a really healthy relationship with the legal department

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to do it.

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Yeah.

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Most of our listeners have experienced this dynamic between legal and PR.

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PR needs to be consistent with the legal argument and of course everything when you're in a

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legal action, everything gets, you know, reviewed with a fine tooth comb, but you tend to pull

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the quotable quotes from the filings, the relevant bits that you want to get in front of the

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reporters, the pertin parts and then help frame it.

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And one thing that I like to advise is that legal can help in partnership by making

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its filings, at least parts of them as readable as possible, right?

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They're not going to change the whole filing into some press-friendly, conversational document,

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but I always suggest like try to partner with legal if you can, like on say the first page,

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the introductory part.

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That's where, first of all, it's easy to find.

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And it's okay to be a little more general and that you can broadly set up the arguments,

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you know, ideally in the same language that you would use in a public, like a press statement

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and then make it pithy and understandable at least and then the lawyers can go on to do

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all their loitering with the lawyer language after that.

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Yeah.

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And I think that General and Block did a really good job in, now they're lawyers and obviously

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their comms team is, you know, doing comms for legal every day, but you go to that web page

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and it feels very accessible, again, as we said, the firms that are fighting this, they're

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making it about a bigger issue, they're making it about the way the system ought to work

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and that they are coming to defense, to the defense of constitutional principles, to defense

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of the rule of law.

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So I think it's a much more effective approach.

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One of the things that is most surprising to me is that we haven't seen as many other

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firms sign on.

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Winter lose.

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And I mean, these are the top law firms in the country fighting for their lives.

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I assume they're going to give it their best, but winter lose, you're standing on principle

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and reputationally, that's where I would much rather be.

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And I think whatever the reasons business or otherwise, I think it's a real mess that the

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legal profession, the legal community doesn't seem more unified in its response.

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That it's where at this 50/50 split is really surprising to me.

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I don't know where, if that trend is going to continue, but the firms who have given

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in more recently, but we said that we upped that pro bono pledge.

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So it seems from the outside, like the two sides could be moving apart or at least the

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ones who are capitulating don't seem to have drawn any strength from the resolve that their

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peers are showing.

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And I'm sure there is a lot of industry politics and history and other goings on that we

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are not familiar with.

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And it's pretty clear a lot of there's a lot of negotiation going on behind the scenes

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between these firms and we have to assume that there are others sort of in the pipeline.

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What's troubling about these law firms giving in a Trump isn't just that they folded under

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pressure.

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It's that they seated very ground the legal profession is supposed to defend.

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And that's independence, access and equal protection under the law.

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So if law firms are supposed to be the firewall, they're the ones who take the heat so that

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the clients, even on popular ones, still get representation.

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But when you start cutting deals to void executive retaliation, when you rewrite hiring practices

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and pledge pro bono work to political causes to stay in the administration's good graces,

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you're not defending the law, you're conforming to power.

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And let's be honest, this was at a level playing field.

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These weren't routine policy disagreements.

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These were firms being targeted for past affiliations or DEI programs for who they hired

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and who they represented.

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That's not oversight.

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That's retribution.

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So yeah, it's troubling.

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People training teaches you how to win arguments with their tight reasoning, but reputation isn't

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one that way.

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Yeah, it's shaped by how you show up in the uncertainty.

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And in today's environment, people aren't judging you based on your footnotes.

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They're judging you based on your values or voice and your visibility.

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Yeah, and I think that this is why the strategy that these, the firms who are resisting,

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their strategy of zooming out to the impact on the rule of law, getting people to focus

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on the broader issues and not necessarily making it about themselves in the first instance,

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which is I think, think what Paul Weiss was doing in this long memo that was sort of

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doubled back on itself logically a couple times, where they're really like, we can't operate

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if we don't give in.

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That narrows it, not broadens it.

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And I think it's less relatable to people and it makes it harder to get people to pick

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up your case.

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You know, risk isn't always something to minimize.

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Sometimes you have to manage, right?

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Lawyers are trying to reduce exposure, but in chaotic environments like this, visibility

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is often the strategic move that they're making.

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The public doesn't trust silence anymore.

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You know, it's red is weakness, guilt or detachment.

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So the shift here's got to be from control to credibility, from not saying anything, to

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saying something worth believing.

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I think that's the communications mindset is how you turn legal risk into risk.

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Reputational authority.

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Yeah, it's beyond me that anybody thinks in this dynamic that we're in the middle of right

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now with the Trump White House that anybody thinks saying nothing is an effective way to

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get through a reputational crisis like this.

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I can't think of an example where it has worked.

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I don't understand why people keep trying that playbook except paralysis, that it is scary

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and we don't like what we've just had to do, but you've done it and now you've got to

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own it and saying nothing is not a viable option.

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Communication moves fast, the law moves cautiously and I think that's where a little bit of the

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friction is.

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But friction doesn't mean conflict.

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It means you need fluency.

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And when you know what might trigger litigation, regulatory scrutiny or discovery exposure,

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you can help legal stay out of trouble without losing the message.

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So it's a little bit about timing, a little bit about trust knowing when to speak and either

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way you got to be able to get the buy-in first.

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Yeah, and I mean, I think that's a really good point that things are moving fast these

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days, but the law, the court process is still a lot slower.

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And what the firms who are resisting these executive orders and these other threats, they're

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using that to their advantage.

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Again, I don't understand why this wasn't part of the calculus for the firms who capitulated

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because they're basically buying time.

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I don't think it's super surprising, but or that there was any luck involved.

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These are skilled lawyers.

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I think in each case, when they went to federal judges, the federal judges, their immediate

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response was inclined to support their position that these are unconstitutional orders.

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And so now you enter this period, well, well, it's in the courts and we're encouraged

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by the initial comments by the court.

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And it didn't necessarily have to move as quickly as it did for some of these firms.

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I think the first target of the executive orders was coming to an emberling.

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That was at the end of February.

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They just sued this week.

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So that was hanging out there and it's really also about the ability to live in the uncertainty.

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What skills they brought to bear there, I'm not sure, but they certainly were able then

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to get their ducks in a row.

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And now it's in the courts and that gets them some more time.

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I will say there's something about that, that for us as communicators that we have to in

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this moment of chaos, we have to be able to pause long enough and not move too fast.

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I mean, the fact that their lawsuit took so long, sometimes you can have a knee jerk response

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and needed to find out and be aware and touch with how, you know, in this case, other

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law firms, but how other companies are dealing with these issues so that you know the degree

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that you're in sync, you certainly don't want to be out there.

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But if you are out there by yourself and you're speaking from a position of authority and

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you're doubling down, that's totally okay.

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But I think right now there's just so much uncertainty, the more aware, the more calibrated

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that you can be in your response and your ability to keep your feet grounded, right?

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While you're pulled in so many different directions is is important.

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Yeah.

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And we've seen, we've seen some firms use their time wisely.

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I think Cuffington and Burling, General and Block, probably in that category because where

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the communications needs to move quickly is once you've made a decision and taken an action,

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right?

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We didn't see that with, with Paul Weiss.

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They let Trump make the announcement and then everybody sort of scratch their heads about

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why and what it really meant and it wasn't until the weekend that their CEO came out.

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But the others are making their decision and obviously in parallel, they're getting their

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communications ready.

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So when they file, they're there with a statement and the public positioning so that everybody

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knows where they stands and it amplifies their actions and puts them in context.

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Yeah.

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I'm actually curious for our audience how much their background affects the way they're

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thinking about matters right now because look, we've got several CCOs who actually have

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law degrees.

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They not only have a communications background, but they also have a law degree as well.

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Yeah.

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I think that's one issue.

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One is their own exposure, their own training in terms of the law and two, how is their

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company set up in terms of the relationship between communications and their legal department

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here?

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Yeah, I mean, there's a fair number of companies where communications reports into legal just

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structurally organizational.

330
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's also that too, right?

331
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Yeah.

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00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,560
So you would like to think that there's two way education going on there that you have

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00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:29,600
comms, people who are more versed in legal and you have importantly lawyers who are more

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versed in how the comms works.

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And I think if you get that balance right, you can be really, really effective.

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That is said earlier, it really depends on partnership here where comms can have some input, legal

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can set the boundaries, maybe stretch them just a little bit where they understand that

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it's going to be effective outside the court, outside the legal filing.

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So long as it doesn't harm what they're trying to do within the four walls of that legal

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filing.

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One of the biggest questions here for me is, and one we don't have full visibility to

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us whether communicators at these firms are actually part of the decision making process

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or if they're just getting handed the consequences.

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You know, from the outside, it looks like the latter, right?

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You know, these statements don't always read like their proactive positioning.

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They read like internal memos that reluctantly got sent to the public.

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They're vague, reactive, and late in some cases.

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And they're letting the story be told by the very person who put them in the cross-airs.

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If communicators were in the room early, if legal and comms were functioning as a joint unit,

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you would expect sharper framing, faster response, and a clear articulation of values and principles.

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Instead, we're getting the language you write when you're trying to keep the peace and not

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lead the conversation.

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So yeah, I think many of these cases, we've got situations where communicators are on the

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sidelines.

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And that's a missed opportunity.

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It's a strategic failure if that makes sense.

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However you want to term it, I'll boil it down to four words.

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Get ahead of it.

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Get ahead of it.

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It's a golden rule and it's something that everybody's got to keep in mind.

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I think everybody listening to this podcast knows that it's just that sometimes when you

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get into these situations, again, paralysis, fear, we're in uncharted territory in some

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00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:21,360
ways, but in some ways, we are not.

364
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:26,840
These things are going to play out to the same audience that we had six months ago.

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And so a lot of what we've known, a lot of the rules that we've sort of grown up on,

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still apply, even though we have some of the characters operating outside of the norms.

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It's just have to remember what works and what principles are going to help us stay ahead

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of things so that we can still be controlling our own narrative, even if we're in a situation

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that we don't like.

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The truth is in organizations, Pierre doesn't have the authority to shape legal decisions.

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When a firm is facing an executive order, a sanctions threat or pressure from the White House,

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those decisions are happening at the top between managing partners, general counsel, sometimes

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the board and communications is often brought in after the fact, often tasked with crafting

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a message around a decision that's already been made.

375
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That's the structural reality.

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00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:23,040
But it's also a strategic vulnerability because when legal decisions have public consequences

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and they increasingly do, leaving comms out of the conversation early means you're reacting

378
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and not shaping it.

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00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,480
And that delay is going to cost you in terms of public trust, employee confidence, investor

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00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,000
perception, and even a court.

381
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,160
So this isn't about comms trying to steer legal reasoning.

382
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,960
It's about recognizing that legal strategy has become a reputational flashpoint.

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00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,600
And if you don't have alignment across the functions early enough, you end up with filings

384
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,040
that are airtight and court, but they're not readable in the media.

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And statements that will sound detached or defensive or even hollow.

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So no communicators so often have the power to insert themselves, but smart organizations

387
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,840
are starting to shift that somewhat because comms is not nice to have.

388
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:16,800
It's a necessity and in a moment where public opinion can influence legal risk and legal

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00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,640
posture can shape your brand's identity, the alignment between legal and comms is an luxury.

390
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,160
It's risk management.

391
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,920
So here's some of the things this episode tells me.

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One legal credibility is now a reputational asset, but it's also reputation or liability.

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00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:42,000
Native orders are increasingly becoming tools of narrative warfare and law firms once

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00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,360
behind the scenes advisors are now big dragged out front and center.

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So you know, if you're in comms, I think part of the job now is mapping what your exposure

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00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,760
is knowing which firms you're tied to and how they're responding.

397
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You got to align your legal and communications playbooks now before the pressure hits.

398
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And I think you have to decide in advance, where do we stand on this?

399
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What's the guesible?

400
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Not because the question isn't if this climate affects your organization, it's win and in

401
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,040
that moment, you know, reputation or resilience is going to start with clarity.

402
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,040
Yeah.

403
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,800
And again, these decisions, these statements are playing out in front of a much broader

404
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:21,800
audience.

405
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,200
You're dealing with legal stuff.

406
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,720
It's usually you're talking to a judge and now you are talking to the whole world and

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that's something that comms can have a really important point of view to share on.

408
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So giving them a seat at the table for these things.

409
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,120
Yeah, they're not going to decide or veto your legal strategy, but they're going to have

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00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:42,000
very important feedback on how it might play out.

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And we are going to see, I think more of this, it will be really interesting to see if

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this divide in the legal community somehow narrows or if we end up with two very distinct

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camps.

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And I think the next several weeks will be very telling and we of course will stay on

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top of it.

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That's our show for this week.

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We want to thank Sean P. Niel and the people forward network for making our podcast possible.

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If you have comments or suggestions for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you.

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Our email address is podcast@ocrnetwork.com.

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Communication breakdown is a production of the Observatory on corporate reputation.

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I'm Steve Dowling.

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And I'm Craig Carroll.

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Thanks for listening.

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We'll be back next week.

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#RoyalShakespeareCompany​ #PaulWeiss​ #SkaddenArps​ #WilkieFarr​ #Milbank​ #PerkinsCoie​ #WilmerHale​ #Jenner&Block​ #Covington&Burling​ #Trump #Tariff #LegalNews #Disney #Harvard #DEI

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