Think you're good at listening because you can repeat the last thing someone said think again
Most executives only capture a fraction of what's actually being communicated and that's costing them big
On today's executive connect podcast. We're welcoming Oscar Trumboli best-selling author and host of the award-winning
deep listening podcast
He's worked with over 1500 organizations to teach leaders how to go beyond words and uncover insights and drive powerful decisions
Ready to upgrade your listening skills and transform your leadership impact. Let's dive in
Welcome Oscar
Good. I'm Alyssa looking forward to listening to your questions today. I
Love it now you've been building an impressive career helping leaders go beyond just hearing words to truly listening with meaning
What interests you and this passion for deep listening and how did you learn and
Lead on your mission of creating a hundred thousand deep listeners
Well, you have to zoom into a ordering meeting in April
2008 I'm in a three-way video conference between Sydney Seattle and Singapore and we're setting the annual budget for Microsoft and
You can imagine there are lots of people in this very long boardroom and 20 minutes in my supervisor
My vice president looks me straight in the eye across the room and she says Oscar
We need to talk immediately after this meeting now. I know about you Melissa when you get the honey. We need to talk conversation
It's not gonna be good so
To be quite honest. I didn't listen to anything that happened in the rest of that budget meeting which cost me on my budget line a little bit later on
and all I was trying to do was figure out how many weeks of salary I had left and
Who the five people I'm gonna call together job
Meeting finished a little early and as everybody walked out Tracy said to me
Oscar police closed the door because what I have to say to you is very important and as I kind of step back after
closing the door
She says to me
Oscar you have no idea what you do at the 20-minute mark and I thought great
I'm getting fired and I don't even know why I
sat down and Tracy said if you could code how you listen you could change the world
What I heard was whoo. I haven't been fired
and
The difference between hearing and listening is the action you take and
Ever since then I haven't tried to code how I listen but I've tried to code how the best listeners in the world listen with within a few hundred of them from
Hostage negotiators to dolphin trainers and
Journalists and judges and
Deaf people and blind people to to understand what great listening is so that's where it started and since then we've coded it into software into books into
Cheek saw puzzle games and into the consulting methodologies for use
Deep listen deep listening isn't just a skill. It's a discipline that one must practice
So can you break down some of those core elements of deep listening and explain how executives can apply them in their day to day?
Well one of the first fallacies of listening is that
focusing on the speaker is where listening starts
Kind of that's handy, but it's not actually productive the step but most people skip when it comes to listening is listening to themselves
They have so many browser tabs open in their own mind and this is multiplied for executives where I have
Balanced meeting the next meeting the upcoming
resolution of
customer issue quality issue production issue
They've got so many things going on in their mind and they don't have available memory to help everyone out
So
There's three things I would say that everybody needs to know about listening and the first one is don't focus on the speaker
Start by focusing on you
The second one is it's great to listen to what people say. It's even more powerful to notice what they haven't said and
If you know the numbers of listening
it becomes really simple and
Don't focus on yourself. Know what the speaker is going through
The speaker can speak at 125 to 150 words a minute if they're selling property
They might speak at 200 words per minute. They might go a little faster. You can still understand
Here's the challenge for the speaker although they can get a
150 125 words out per minute in their head. I have 900 words per minute. They're trying to get out
So the very first thing that somebody says is 14% of what they think
So if you're only focused on what they said the first time you're missing 86% of what they think and what they mean
And if you want employees and customers to be seen heard and valued
By noticing what they haven't said you'll make a big impact
So when it comes to listening that the three things we talk about continuously is one
Get yourself right
to
Make sure that you can hear not just what they say the first time
But create some space so they can say what they think and what they mean and
then finally if you can hear what they mean
Rather than what they said you'll have an impact beyond words and often say to people if I said to you Melissa 3 is half of 8
What will go through your head you'd properly say Oscar's wrong?
You misspoke and
yet
3 is half of 8 and
Zero is half of 8 and so is 4
See while you're listening to me speaking you're thinking mathematically and you go 4 Oscar 4 is the only answer
But if you drew the figure 8 on a piece of paper and cut it in half and
Thought about it geometrically you've got two three's when you cut an 8 in half and you've got two zeros when you cut the 8 in half in the middle
Every day we're having conversations with people
Where they're saying 3 is half of 8 and then your head you're going no no no you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong
In fact, they're just looking at the world in a completely different way
So that's how to think about listening beyond the words
And I feel like I 14% is such a crazy number to me that's not very good if you're
in sales or dealing with people on a regular basis so
You know most of us focus on like you said what's being said, but really
What's not being said so when people are
Talking to someone how can they is it really just asking the right question so 14%
Listened leaving silence and asking more questions for clarification. Oh, yes, if it was only that simple
Yes, that's a great stopping point
and
But I want to allow you a very simple technique
By the way if you work in a complex collaborative or competitive environment
The average person thinks that 900 words per minute, but if you're in those complex environments
You're thinking up to 1600 words per minute, which means what you say the first time is 5% of what you think
So here's the tip the words silent
And the word listen share the identical letters
If you want to notice what somebody hasn't said
If you just pause if you just use silence
It's like a magnet to pull out what they mean
For many of us
particularly in the West
particularly in Western workplaces
We feel an urge to fill the silence
We have our negative relationship with silence
We call it the awkward silence the pregnant pause the deafening silence
In high context cultures China career Japan
The in-your-of-north America the Polynesian cultures the Australian Aboriginal cultures
Silence is a sign of wisdom respect and authority
So if you're looking for one simple thing
To draw out what I mean
Quite often silence is the most difficult thing you're ever going to play with
Treat silence like a word
Listen to the beginning of the middle and the end of silence which will give you enough time to go
Oh, they haven't finished what they think
They're just moving on to explaining it in a different way
Most people have a jumbled mess of spaghetti inside their head
And it's unlikely they can say what they mean the very very first time
If you're looking for two simple other phrases
These phrases take the
Conversation in very different directions
Tell me more keeps the conversation going in the same direction
So if you want to listen for what similar
If you want to bring the group together
If it's a group conversation it's always tell me more
So that keeps the conversation going in the same direction
But if you're listening trying to listen for difference
And most people are uneven conscious that they listen for similarities exclusively because they're just trying to pattern match with past experience
The other one is and what else?
now
questions with eight words or less
neutral or unbiased and
in the early part of a conversation in the early part of a relationship in the early part of a project you want to watch neutral questions
In the middle towards the end of the conversation or a project you do want to ask close questions
So a lot of people say you should always ask open-ended questions
That's true if you're a psychiatrist
But if you're in a workplace and you got finite resources you have to allocate
Bice questions have a place as well
And the pause I always think of like I've been in some of those meetings that you're talking about where everybody is talking
Posing is almost like it's so uncomfortable that it makes people you could tell who's paying attention to right when you pause
I feel like the pause a lot of times you I could always tell oh they know they're not paying attention and it also is like
like you said a seeker lepon
to
Really getting more information but also paying attention to see who's paying attention
And I think now do you think it's because
The westerners are just uncomfortable with the pause or do you think it's just a lack of discipline?
I think comes to what's role modeled in the culture by the leader
If you've got leaders who are comfortable with
the unknown
To explore to experiment to not think they have the answer to every question
Now you'll see pauses and silence and
Always present
If you if you're like use weight
W
Hey IT
Why am I talking as a way to think about silence?
So if you can't remember silent and listening have the same letters just remember weight why am I talking?
because often
particularly in group settings the lead as role is not to get everybody to listen to the active speaker
The leaders role in groups is to get everybody to listen to each other and
creating
That space whether through silence or an offer for somebody else to provide input is a great way to get a different
And possibly better solution to the same problem
So leaders set the tone and
If leaders are comfortable flexing that muscle
Then the group becomes more comfortable as well particularly if people are jumping in in turn taking and
The leader might say I noticed that Mary hadn't quite finished Oscar
Hold that thought we're gonna come back to you
This is particularly plays out with the classic introvert extrovert dynamic in a meeting as well
I want to go back to that example
You set at the beginning with the budget meeting and everybody's in the room now
How like playing off that example?
How how do you teach leaders in those situations where?
You know, there's multiple executives in the room
You know everybody has to give their you know their pitch to get their dollars. How do you teach them?
These skills that you're talking about is there a certain method that you use or how do you teach them that so they can make better decisions?
in their careers
Well the first thing to think about is listening and communication happens before during and after those set-piece meetings
A lot of the success of those meetings happen well before the meeting
It's a piece of theater to be honest whether that's a set-piece meeting that's
presidential negotiation all the works done by others before hand
The during pieces really critical if you're the leader who's hosting that meeting
process is as important as content
how you
Set time up how you ask questions
How you allocate time to various parts of it
Most leaders I work with have agendas and think that's the answer and in most cases
It's the answer to the output
It's not the answer to the process or the imports that are coming into the conversation
So during the meeting
No matter how many participants there are if you don't ask this question
Most people will zone out during team meetings
If you don't ask this question you won't get the most from everybody if you don't ask this question
You won't get discretionary effort if you don't ask this question
You won't get the left field breakthrough ideas and the question is simply this
What would make this a great meeting
Not what would make this a great meeting for you which I hear a lot of executives ask
But we're actually not interested in what will make it a great meeting for the participant
We're asking for the collective so we want everybody to go around the room and say well
We'll make it a great meeting because when somebody zones out
I invite them to go listen for what the other person said and
That will give you a different perspective in terms of listening
So before the meeting make sure you have
Everybody who are the right people in the room with the right inputs during the meeting make sure you have the right process set up
By asking this question what will make it a good meeting conversation project
Acquisition procurement process
You can interrupt people that tell the same story just different ways a lot of people say oh I can't listen to these people
They just go on and on and it's like
When you ask that question at the beginning you have a permission slip to interrupt them
Melissa at the beginning of the meeting you mentioned this would make it a great meeting
Given where you're out with the story how are we tracking?
They will self correct in most cases and if they don't and lack the self awareness
Then you can just say look given the time available
Could you wrap it up? Could you say it in a sentence?
Whatever the case may be that also make a point to check in with them a lot of times the reason people say things over and over and over again
They feel like they haven't been heard
Finally after the meeting this is where the biggest impact happens
The difference between hearing and listening is action if you don't take the actions and the actions of a
Regret in the meeting nobody will ever think you're listening in group meetings
So again you need a process for tracking actions and
Checking in on actions before the next meeting so listening happens before during and after a meeting
I love it made me when you when you were saying I'm one of those people that have all these file folders open
So let me go for meeting to meeting to meeting we're still digesting the last meeting and the meeting before the other meeting
You know to figure out what we got to get done and then we're showing up to a meeting that we're
You know responsible for bringing something so how does one navigate and juggle that right? I think even for myself
I do like you said have all those file folders open and when I
Get on a call
I'm still trying to like who saw and like bring it down
To to really lean in and focus on the current meeting. So is there any
You know tips for those leaders and executives that are going for meeting to meeting really attacking the day and problem-solving all the time that you can share
Yeah, I'm gonna give you two
both very practical number one
Well, listen if you had to speculate what percentage of meetings do you create like is it 50% 80%
20%
Great for those 50% of meetings is your most common meeting a one-hour meeting or a 30 minute meeting
I've been trying to do the
25 meeting mark and the 50 meeting mark so there's kind of minutes in between the other meetings
I heard the trying I
Didn't hear what you said after that. So are you doing it or are you trying it?
Well in my in my industry everything happens at the last end of the meeting right everything happens at the end
So we kind of waste the beginning
Parts of the meeting then we get into the meeting and then everything happens at the end because like you were saying at the beginning
Not everybody was paying attention
So we're really going back and addressing all of those things. So I would say I
Give myself a C
I could be doing that
Most executives would and if you've got an assistant just handover and delegate it to them
But the further one hour meeting is definitely the five minutes either side
When your book a meeting with me it's ten minutes after the hour and
Everybody says to me at the beginning did you make a mistake?
We meant to meet it ten after the hour. I said no
No, that that was by design and they go oh, that's great because I had a restroom break
Had a chance to collect my thoughts and I also
Take off ten minutes at the end
So they can process the meeting so for the 50% you're in charge of
you can
time box it
So that you and the participants have got time either side of it because if you started the top of the hour
And it's a group meeting people still gonna arrive five minutes after the hour. It's like
Sorry, so I was running late
I had a listen that ran over because the big breakthrough idea only came at the last minute in the last meeting and and they're not there
They're physically present but they're mentally not present
So listening as humans as we evolved we learned to listen
After we learned to see so our eyesight is more evolved than our listening our listening happens in the more modern part of the brain
The prefrontal cortex so shutting down those browser tabs is really difficult because we're using working memory
The brain 5% of body mass but it consumes 25% of blood sugars
That this is where the work happens. So the second tip is this
Drink water drink a glass of water before the meeting starts and it sends a signal to the parasympathetic nervous system
That's all the nervous system around your chest and lungs to go relax everything's okay
Now if you just time box it and drink the water
You're gonna be miles ahead listening is a skill
It's a strategy and it's a discipline
It's not something that
Oscar clicks his magic fingers come on the course and off you go it's done
You're the world's best listener now
Listening takes discipline it takes practice takes consistency
The listening is a contact sport the only way you can practice it is by being in dialogue with another human
So greatly you're trying the time boxing
With your teams
If you're a leader
Hopefully that will cascade into the meetings they create as well
So the time boxing happens and explain to people why you're time boxing as often as possible
Because time is the only finite resource we have in an organization
money people
That much more flexible than our time
Yeah, I love that that's a great the great tips now
We talked a little bit at the beginning you mentioned Japan and some other
Cultures that have you know they they have been trained to do it. It's embedded into their culture
Now how can we take what's being used in other parts of the world and really embed it and bad deep listening into our corporate culture is there a way
That one could kind of blend that into a culprit culture if a culture is not as you said into
deep listening
And everybody is kind of just fighting their way through the meeting is there a way to embed that
See there's what I did I read I re ask the question
Beautiful beautiful example of 125 words per minute Melissa. Thank you
Completely out of a rest and well done, but that's a perfect example of that and if you go back and he molasses
First-day question and the host second question that actually had very different emphasis in meaning in them
So as a as a leader in a corporate system one of the things you want to pay attention to for the meetings you run is this
How many
Statements are made versus how many questions are made during a conversation you can keep a tally of this just
Put your little one two three four five and then stroke with a gate so you can keep tallys in five
And then just notice the ratio of statements to questions
For underperforming teams the statement ratio is very much higher in underperforming teams to the questions
Now depending there's no magic formula and 50 50 is probably not a good start start for 25% questions
And 75% statements that's a good starting point
Here's the most important thing you've got to pay attention to
When you look at the questions how many of those questions are clarifying questions
most people are answering the question that wasn't asked
Why because they didn't allow enough space for Melissa to say it the second time
Or confirm with Melissa when you said x did you mean
X or did you mean Y or did you mean Z or did you mean something else
Clarifying questions should be at least 10% of the total
Conversation and should represent at least a third of all questions asked
When you increase the clarifying question ratio in team meetings
Your meetings will actually be shorter
Those examples that Melissa talked about earlier where everything kind of comes at the end of the meeting
That's because we're just not listening
Effectively and we get the chance to pull up fall wood
By asking some simple clarifying questions
Because remember again most of us are going for four four is half of eight you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong
Well, I'm thinking geometrically you're thinking in mathematics
So maybe we just need to agree on the language
So for leaders just keep a count
You can do this in your one-on-ones as well
Just keep a running count of how many times you're asking questions versus
statements the opposite is true too
Too many questions
Doesn't feel like listening it just feels like you're loading up more ammunition in a gun to put somebody in a court
So be careful with how many questions you ask as well
Which one of those is helpful for you
I call that interrogation the too many questions
Yeah, I know
Go ahead sorry sorry
No, no, I just noticed your head tilted very differently when I talked about clarifying questions compared to statement to question right
Shows and I think you heard it a little differently
Yeah, and I think
For me sometimes I know I'm guilty
Jumping to conclusions, right? I'm coming hot out of a meeting and I know what's a meeting is going to be about
And so I instantly think I know what's gonna so I'm instantly jumping to conclusions
I guilty of it guilty of that and so how can we teach people to not be that
Jumping to conclusions you know talking over people
interrupting people finishing people senses is there
Is it simple is just muting your your computer so you just don't do it or is there another
So there's
For for for primary barriers to listening we're very such 35,000 white place listeners across the world in English speaking
Workplaces and there's four things that get in their way number one the one you said
I've been there. I've done that
I it's not my first rodeo I can patent match I can solve hurry up
Finish a sentence because I know the answer right so we call that the shiroud listening villain
That are awesome. They give great listening. They give you lots of mm-hmm, uh-huh
In their head they're not paying attention at all the side hurry ups. I can tell you the answer
And what the speaker says in our research is all they're trying to do is fix me they're not actually listening
So notice they say fix me not the problem
So for those shrewd listening villains out there your disproportionately represented in finance in accounting in human resources in
General and executive leadership
any service function
IT and
Sales shrewd is disproportionately represented there interrupting is someone who's very conscious of time
And but they're the jeopardy quiz contestant who presses the buzzer before the host and they answer the wrong question and get it wrong
And what the speaker says is you know one more bother talking, you know
So you're creating friction in the relationship
The final two is lost. I don't know my purpose in this meeting
I don't know why I've been invited. I don't even know my place in the meeting
So you come across as vague and disinterested in the meeting ask that question if the host doesn't ask you
What what will make this a good meeting?
So you can understand would you like me to listen from the customers perspective?
Would you like me to listen from the competitors perspective?
What perspective would you like me to bring in this meeting?
And then the final one the dramatic listener
They love listening to your story. Oh, I'm struggling with my manager. This is the worst merger I've ever gone through
Oh, let me tell you about my manager
I've got I've got an even worse manager than you all of a sudden the spot white goes on to them
So if you want to find out which one of the four listening villains gets in your way
You can go to listeningquiz.com you can take the seven minute 20 question assessment
You'll get a five page report
It'll tell you not only what your primary and secondary villain is but it also give you
Three pages of tips about what to do about that combination of villains in yours
I'm not going to ask you to out yourself Melissa because you already have you're the shrewd listening villain
Yeah, we listen differently at home
Then we listen our work at work. I'm a shrewd listening villain at home
I'm lost my brother-in-law's bang on about religion all the time when they come over dinner is like
And they religion is the religion of canon versus Nikon it's photography and like my my camera is my phone
It's like occasionally I pretend I'm interested in the conversation but most of the time I'm not
so
I'm completely zoned out. I don't know my purpose in that conversation
So your skills of listening dumb well at work you can bring them into home as well at least you need to be aware of what gets in your way
Now you're making me question my listening
I'm thinking through how I'm doing listening I find for me
I have to put myself on a way and everything down
Otherwise, I'm distracted with listening with the beings and the the calls and the this and the this so like you were
We listen different in our work in our home
I know in my home if I don't put the phone away for I'm half listening which we know if I'm half listening
I can't possibly be really listening
So for me the the simple thing of putting the phone down in a way and sitting
And not thinking about what I need to be doing next and not what I need to be accomplishing later
Is the only way I've really been grounded in listening personally with my children and my family
So I have to practice this more
Maybe I'll try the phone putting the phone away at work and see how that works
Focus in better
You're you're my me an executive of flew from the US to Australia effectively a 24 hour flight
I was hosting a room of 30 CEOs on his behalf, Peter's behalf
He sat down the meeting was about to commence. I introduced everybody and then he got up
And went to his bag and put his cell phone in his bag and he sat down and he said look I've traveled 24 hours to be here
I apologize
I need to bring my full and undivided attention to this conversation
19
of the
30 executives did exactly the same straight away
As a leader why you raw model to your teams will get you located
Now I know after the fact that this is a piece of theatre
That Peter created to make sure the executives paid attention to him and nothing to do with that
And more importantly as he said to me laid Oscar
I don't care if they pay attention to me. I wanted them to pay attention to each other
And that's the difference between a good host and a great host a good host gets everybody listen to them
A great host gets everybody to listen to each other
So what are you role modeling when it comes to devices
Are you role modeling frantic? Are you role modeling sneaky? Are you role modeling or
Can you simply say
Look
My dad's under medical care
He's got an appointment today my phone will be on
The only reason I'll answer it is his from his doctor
So if that phone does ring people don't get oh yeah
Tells all of us to do it right but he doesn't do it himself. So there are situations where you can't
Switch the phone or you might have a child at sick or a daycare center that needs to contact you
There are many reasons why the phone should be on
And signal that to the team
But it should be the exception rather than all
And that's a really great example too because you're being so authentic and honest
And I think that builds trust with people and you know
You're not becoming a hypocrite like you were mentioning to
Tell them they can't be on their phone but you're on your phone
So I love that example that's so such a really important example
Now do you think any of it has to do
With the technology itself like the
Constant need I kind of feel sometimes the phones kind of like an addiction and I feel like
We're constantly feeling like we have to be busy and
Important in doing things and answering texts and
Social media is is that planning and to any of it you think or is it just flat learning how to be a better listener
So I want to apologize I'm from the industry that created all those distractions
I sold
Email systems and instant messengers systems and video conference systems
And what I taught then and what I teach now is actually not different
By default you should switch all those notifications off
Right that that you have a new mail whether that's on your phone or on your
tablet or on your desktop
really
Doesn't really matter that much
Or is it more important to role model being present to the person or people who are in front of you
Use the technology don't let the technology use you
You have one button in every operating system
That if turned on will switch off all notifications based on what's in your calendar
So if your calendar is empty you'll get the notifications and if your calendar's got a meeting in it
I won't notify you
Before you did was just switch that setting in your operating system to on
No notifications during meetings
That would help many many many many people
For a lot of people switching notifications off is like telling a drug addict they need to go call turkey
They will never do it
Maybe switch your phone to grayscale
When you're in those meetings
So those little red dots that go from one to two to three to four to five aren't as prominent for you
Learn how to use the vibrate feature rather than use the ring feature
Use the technology don't let the technology use you all those red dots and notifications and vibrations and sounds
All come from the exact same piece of research in 1973 that taught the software industry
Based on the slot machine industry in Las Vegas how to keep people pressing a button mindlessly to put coins in it
So if you want to be a mindless gambler
Keep your notifications on
It didn't occur to me until you said that oscar that I have had my phone on off the entire time I've owned my iPhone
I don't even think my phone is ever
Raying unless it was an emergency and it didn't occur to me until just now that I have them all
I do not just turn or silent
So maybe that's why I'm more peaceful. I don't know that could be it. I didn't occur to me so just now
I want to get any
I want to ask you any final thoughts or anything that we didn't touch on that you want to leave with our listeners today
Now simply a reminder that the first thing somebody said is unlikely to be what they think and what they mean
And if you truly want to have an impact beyond words
Listen to what they have to say
But notice what they haven't said is
The 86% sits in what they haven't said and when you hear
What they haven't said your meetings will be shorter. They'll be more productive and more impactful
That's great. Thank you for sharing that oscar now tell our listeners
Where they can connect with you and what's the best way?
Please don't connect with me please connect with your listening visit listening quiz.com and learn about your listening
And if you do want to connect with me once you take the quiz you'll get all the
fancy pants coordinates in there where you can stay in touch with me if you want to
But it's more important you discover or get in the way of your listening than spending time talking to me
Thank you so much for being here oscar and sharing your time with our listeners. That's the executive connect podcast
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