Um, you might be able to get past the smell that I have to imagine that the smoke was
pretty goddamn alarming.
Right, right.
And then I combine.
Yeah, it's like the smell's bad.
It's making it hard for people to breathe.
It's like stinging your eyes.
It's like kind of a wicked combo.
Yeah, like all the winner, all the winner.
Exactly.
Hi, Cristina.
Hi.
Say hello to the creepy people.
Hi, creepy people.
Yeah.
That's pretty much the greeting that they are accustomed to.
That's true.
I like I haven't heard it.
I swear I have.
I know.
This is PNW Haunts and Homicides sites.
It's a, oh, I can't forget the tagline Cassie will absolutely murder me.
It's PNW if you're nasty.
I heard that one.
Yeah.
She gets mad whenever I don't say it now.
I just said it like kind of like as a little like joke one time.
You had to keep saying it.
And now I have to say it forever.
Yeah.
That's what Cassie said.
So obviously Cassie is not here.
You have a herder voice yet.
You can't see her if you're watching us on YouTube.
But we have the lovely Cristina.
Yes.
And you know what?
It's like a perfect replacement because my name also starts with C.
I know.
Yeah.
So we're so like C and C, you know, exactly.
Yeah.
It keeps it, you know, feels like it's all in the family.
Yeah.
Before we get started, obviously I want to say thank you Cristina for joining us today.
If you've been listening for a while, you know that she is one of our pod besties.
She took us along for the ride to the
Two Girls, One ghost.
Show.
Breathe.
Oh, yeah.
She's just like, I just do that stuff.
I was going to say, what do you mean?
You took me along to the lighthouse side and I was I was the third wheel.
Yeah.
No, we went to the show first.
Yeah.
And that's where I mean very briefly we met Sabrina and then of course like you mentioned, we
dragged you up to the point Wilson lighthouse so that we could do our crossover episode,
which if you haven't listened to that, we were just talking about before we hopped on
that that was like a really fun episode.
We're lucky it got made because also I was very distracted the whole weekend and I fully
thought I was just like on a fun trip because it was so much about it.
We're doing content.
Yeah.
Oh, shoot, I guess I have responsibilities and things.
So, but it felt like it was time to find something else to do together.
So maybe after we record this episode, we'll get to work on planning another trip.
Oh my god.
Yes.
I know we have.
We've already talked about like as soon as we were done with that trip, we had more ideas
percolating.
We kept naming places.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
But you actually have a special connection to the place that we're going to talk about today,
which I didn't fully realize until we robed you into this with us.
So because I was like, I know generally, but I was like this specific city.
Yeah.
That is my hometown.
My mom's side of the family were all in Guadalajara.
Well, there's a little, not a suburb, but like a colony that's called Zapopan, which is
right by Guadalajara, like literally 20 minutes.
So we just say Guadalajara because that's where everyone is familiar with the bigger city.
But yeah, that is where I go whenever I go to Mexico.
And I'm actually going to be there in January.
That's so funny because I'm like trying to casually drop in somewhat.
We should go to Mexico.
Damn well, you should have just came with me.
I know.
Well, I'm going to be like once there's a year or so.
I was going to say you probably like to visit really often.
Yeah, I've got to see my grandma, you know.
The fam.
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
So actually immediately as you're pronouncing, I don't like now I don't even want to say,
I don't even want to say.
Should I just say Guadalajara every time?
Like you pause and I'll say Guadalajara.
We should just have like a hand signal because I'm just like Guadalajara.
I feel like somebody is like very, very Midwestern grandma.
But no, I'm just going to put it out there.
You have absolute carte blanche to correct any and all of my pronunciation throughout this
because as we know, unfortunately, there was an incident with a puyala.
That was rough.
Yeah, I forget how to pronounce that all the time.
Yeah, but I hyper focus on my pronunciations and then somehow when my brain spiciness, it
meets the dry mouth.
Yeah.
And then when I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, I jump, yeah. I don't always nail it.
I don't always nail it.
And I rarely do.
And then people are like, you said this wrong.
I'm like, all right.
And when you want me to do about it, it's too late.
Yeah.
And sorry.
And I don't even say I'm sorry anymore.
Yeah.
I mean, whoops.
I mean, we're all trying, right?
Nami.
No.
I mean, you're making the effort.
Yeah. I mean, only to go back and to go back and like apologize for something that, you know, you don't mean any harm.
You're doing your best.
Yeah.
Sometimes I mean harm.
But yeah.
No.
I've got a stop.
No, I love it.
I'd like to encourage this.
More harm.
Okay.
No, just your spiciness.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there's the potential for a lot of spiciness today because I'm also in sort of an adjustment period with my meds.
Oh, hey.
Okay.
Yeah.
Could get role well.
I'll get to my appointment for my refill.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
You got to stay on top of that.
It's rough.
So today we have an OG member of the Patreon to thank for suggesting this topic.
So thank you also to Aaron.
I just had to wait for the stars to align and the dopamine to hit with this one.
But as the kids say, I believe this one slips.
I don't even know why I put that in.
I think they do say that though.
Yeah.
They say stuff like that.
I don't know.
It feels like in my head, I'm picturing somebody cooler, saying it.
So then when I put it in my notes and I'm now trying to read it, I'm like, I feel like a soccer mom.
Should I not have said that?
Established as a sister city to Portland, Oregon in 1983, Guadalajara is nestled in Jalisco.
Oh, yeah.
Jalisco.
Okay.
I totally didn't know we were sister cities with Portland, Oregon.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
I had no idea.
I know.
I know that was actually why one of the Patreon members was like, Oh, I know about this crazy case.
And it's like a sister city to Portland.
And that's how that's our like work around.
It's our cheat code to go international.
I love that.
Yeah.
I'm curious about this case because I can't think of one.
Oh, I'm okay.
I'm excited.
I was curious if you were going to know about this.
I don't know.
But we were both alive, but I don't know if it'll be something that, like, you would really have, like, memory of...
Probably not. My memory is already terrible, so...
I know. It's not great. It doesn't get better in terms of...
It makes it worse.
Yeah. Not age in, like, a fine wine. The opposite.
And Guadalajara is actually the capital city of that state in Mexico. Fun fact. Both Mariachi music and Taquila originate from there as...
Well. That is true. Yeah.
So party people.
Yeah. The Tapatio hot sauce. Have you seen it?
Yeah.
That's like the typical... When you say someone from Jalisco look like it's that Tapatio man on the hot sauce.
That's hilarious. I love that.
Yeah. Whenever they say you have a host like Tapatios, eyes that are Tapatios, it means like huge eyes, because they say people from...
Well, at a hot iron Jalisco have huge eyes. I feel like that holds true. Like...
I do have huge eyes.
You have really big eyes.
And just see my marital eyes gigantic.
But like in a good way, not a bad way.
Not like in a...
Not in like a creepy way. Like a really beautiful way.
While it's not the largest or the most major city in Mexico, it is one of the most populous in all of Mexico.
And actually, it rings as... And this statistic I think is only a handful of years old.
They might have moved up or down a notch. But the ranked near the top 20 in all of the Americas.
So North and South America.
Yeah, it's pretty big.
It's the biggest in Jalisco. Yeah, like you said, not Mexico.
It's also host to the San Juan de Dios market.
Oh man, that market is beautiful. Yeah.
It's so beautiful.
I grabbed a bunch of different pictures and stuff from the market because I'm like,
that looks so cool. It's massive.
It's huge. Yeah, it's huge.
Every floor has... Yeah, I mean, like...
It's like part of it is outside. Then you go inside and there's like, I don't know, three to four floors.
I don't remember anymore.
And then you go outside and it just continues.
And yeah, just so much stuff, so much food.
It's just... It's great.
It looks like there's honestly everything there.
Yeah.
Food and all kinds of different like clothing and like every type of good imaginable.
Yeah.
But it is the largest indoor market in Latin America.
Yeah, it's huge.
It's huge.
And yeah, if you're in Guadalajara, you have to go there.
You have to.
You must.
You heard it here first.
So put a pin in the market for now.
Just let that simmer.
Okay.
Fair warning, there's not really a smooth way to transition to this next part.
Just like really get a rip the bandaid off.
Okay, I'm ready.
Though it seems fitting that we get into the story abruptly because the events we're going
to discuss were anything but gradual or subtle.
On April 22nd, 1992, there were a series of several explosions in the downtown district
of Analco, Colonia Atlas.
Okay.
I know it happened, but I know nothing about it.
I, yeah, I'm excited.
I don't, yeah, I don't know about this.
That's crazy.
There were numerous gasoline explosions in the sewer system.
Fires continued burning for over four hours, destroying roughly eight kilometers or for
those of us that are stateside over five miles of city streets, the most badly damaged being
Gante street.
Hundreds of people were injured and hundreds more were killed in the ensuing chaos.
Though numerous sources speculate what exactly the tally was, my research indicates it was
no fewer than 500 injured and 200 left dead.
Wow.
I know.
I'm like, that's insane.
A lot of the source material says that it's probably a lot higher than that.
It usually is whatever number it is, like double it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
But again, not exactly a strict consensus per se.
Some argue that it could have been upwards into the thousands partially due to the hundreds
of people that were missing in the immediate aftermath.
So that's such a hard thing because if people are missing right away, but then they're found,
maybe they were presumed dead at some point.
It's not a good situation.
No.
Not to mention that thousands of homes were badly damaged, leaving many stranded on the
battered nightmarish streets.
But let's rewind just a little bit.
Days before the explosions, residents began complaining that a strong gas smell was emanating
from the sewers on the streets.
But also from their own residential plumbing.
Who?
And it would progressively worsen in the days leading up to the explosions.
The unpleasant odor left residents suffering from nausea as well as a stinging sensation in
their throats and eyes, in some cases.
So probably not something poopery could take care of.
Right.
Smelly, but not that kind of smelly.
Yeah.
This sounds toxic.
I know.
But in all seriousness, the situation in Guadalajara was pretty alarming.
Residents of the city were finding gasoline coming out of their water pipes in some places.
And though city workers discovered dangerously high levels of gasoline fumes in the sewers,
the city was not being evacuated.
Oh my god.
Okay.
But like, yeah, literal gas is coming out of like the sink.
Yes.
Yeah.
In some places.
So.
And I'm going to talk about it a little bit more as we like kind of explain like the full
series of events and more about why this is happening because I'm like, okay, but
like why?
But also like there's it, there's an element of it too where it's like, it's liquid, but
also like gases.
Yeah.
Right.
And I don't know.
It's a really interesting like aspect of of the case to me because there were certain things
that I was reading.
And I'm going, well, why does that matter?
And I'm like, oh, because science.
Right.
And I'm like, yeah, historically not my best subject.
I was more like a history English.
Yeah.
Dance.
Me too.
PE.
Okay.
Well, you had me until you said PE.
And oh, yeah, no, that was my thing.
Yeah, I was very fit.
Too fit.
I had a lot of energy that I had to get out.
So, but no math and science.
My only bad grades.
Yeah.
I feel like even math, I'm like, I can tolerate you.
Science, it depends.
If it's something really interesting.
You have like like earth science.
Yes.
Chemistry, hard no.
Hard pass.
I literally switched majors from nursing because I couldn't get the basic intro to chemistry.
Oh my gosh.
Chemistry 101 or whatever.
I'm like, I can't do this.
I can't.
It's a lot.
You're like, oh.
Yeah.
Also, when am I going to use this?
But I guess if I don't know.
I never found out.
I did not stick around to find out.
You're like, I don't even want to know the answer to that.
I didn't actually.
Actually, to be fair, I didn't know I had ADHD back then.
So I feel like maybe it would have been helpful to have men's.
Maybe I would have just said a little bit.
But even then, I'm pretty sure I have like the dyslexia of math, dyscalculia.
And so I rough, rough, rough all around.
Rough times.
Well, and then there's so much of science that like you need to be able to do the math
thing for it all to like kind of make a mouth.
No, I'm out.
Are you going to keep talking about math?
Because I'm leaving now.
No, there's no math.
I'm going to go back to Wala Haran, no more math.
Yeah, she's like, let's keep this fresh.
Keep it interesting.
The city's mayor was decidedly against the idea of evacuating.
He apparently didn't believe there was any real risk of an explosion.
I mean, when gas is coming out of sinks and there's fumes, I don't know, but I could see
this happening because see them downplaying everything to not like, because then it looks
better on you, because then was this preventable, right?
And funny, you should mention that.
Probably was then.
Okay.
Funny, you should say that.
Well, yeah.
So, sir, are you aware that gasoline is highly flammable?
Right.
It's not just highly preventable, but it's like, it's so foreseeable.
Yeah, but for some of these people in positions of power, the reputation supersede the safety
of the citizens of whatever you're supposed to be carrying for like a city, say, right?
Definitely.
I feel like it makes me a little bit nervous going into the next handful of years.
Not everyone thinks the infrastructure and all of our systems that are in place to keep
society running and functioning are that important.
And that's scary.
It's very scary.
While we're on the topic of flammability, let's take a nerd dive, shall we?
Okay.
I love these sometimes, except when they both math.
No math.
I promise.
Okay.
Yeah.
Let's do it for science and I promise I'll try to keep this part both free.
Then we're down for me.
Yeah.
It's brief and relevant and very simple.
Brief and further dumb bitches, please.
Yeah.
Gasoline has a low flashpoint and high vapor density.
It produces ignitable vapors that are three to four times heavier than air and can travel
great distances at ground level.
And this will be important to our story because it can collect in low places and cause a
fire hazard.
You know, low places like a sewer.
Yes.
I can see where this is going.
But we're going to science some more.
So let's talk about flammability versus combustibility.
A flammable material is one that ignites easily at normal temperatures or immediately when
exposed to flame, whether it's in liquid, solid or gas form.
Gasoline is considered flammable.
So pretty volatile.
Yeah.
Like, just really want to drive home the point that it's like this, this is dangerous.
Yes.
It has been driven.
I get it.
Yeah.
I, it sounds bad.
I get it.
I was with you.
Yeah.
Combustible materials are generally speaking less volatile, but still require observing safety
protocols such as storing attempts below their flashpoints.
And that's literally the end of the science for now.
I will be delving into some interesting aspects of several engineering later.
She's like, why?
Great.
More science.
Yeah.
Not what I said before.
Yeah.
I promise that's not as sleepy as it sounds, though, I swear.
But now that we've got that out of the way, let's go back to April 19, 1992.
That's when it's generally agreed that Gante Street residents first reported a gasoline
smell coming out of the Guadalajara city sewers, along with plums of white smoke.
Oh, no.
This all sounds terrible.
And like it could have been like, oh, we're noticing these things.
Let's take action.
Do we do something?
I'm asking for a friend.
You might be able to get past the smell that I have to imagine that the smoke was pretty
god damn alarming.
Right.
And then like combine.
Yeah.
Like this smells bad.
It's making it hard for people to breathe.
It's like stinging your eyes.
It's like kind of a wicked combo.
Yeah.
Like all the winner, no, no, no.
Exactly.
The following day, April 20, these reports were investigated and high levels of gasoline
and other hydrocarbons were discovered.
Keep in mind, this discovery was prior to an announcement being made that the city would
not be staging evacuations.
So they had this information and they were like, nope.
And then they did nothing.
Yep.
Oh, no.
They did a lot of nothing.
But why would they?
It's not like the sewer system below was a ticking time bomb or anything, right?
It sounds perfectly fine.
That's right.
And also because the mayor said so and that's that nothing to see here.
Well, the mayor is always right.
Absolutely.
Never wrong.
Yeah.
And the elected officials always have our best interests in art, especially.
Yeah.
Mm.
By 10 a.m. on April 22nd, man covers began to bounce on the streets.
This all sounds so bad.
Oh my god.
It doesn't sound like it could be real.
Right.
Like, it sounds out of a movie.
Yes.
It's like out of, oh my gosh, there's so many that are just like these crazy intents,
apocalyptic scenes and that's a thousand percent what I'm picturing.
Yeah.
And the columns of white smoke came pouring out from the sewer system.
Similar to a pot that's been left unattended to boil over.
Feels a little on the nose, but yeah.
Five minutes later, the first two explosions were recorded, one on the corner of Calzada Independencia,
and Aldama Street.
And the second at the intersection of Gante and 20 de Noviembre, just a moment later, the first
emergency call was placed.
The third explosion at 10:08 sent a bus belonging to the Tuts company into the air.
Oh my god.
Launching busses are always so full.
That's crazy.
No wonder so many people.
Oh my god.
This is terrible.
I know.
Like, and to see the pictures, there were a couple of times where I was like, they are pictures
that are really hard to look at, even though it's not particularly like gory.
It's not like they're not showing anybody who's been, you know, mortally wounded in most
of them, but it's just like you just know that that is that's what's happened.
And that like there are people that are just like horrifically injured from this.
I just was like, I just want to cry.
Man.
So the bus that, you know, is just casually flying through the air, that was on the corner
of Gante and Nicolás Bravo.
I just, honestly, the whole time I'm thinking like, what is this, a set of twister?
Like that's crazy.
Just like explosion after explosion after explosion that set a bus off flying and like the city
could have been evacuated or this would have happened.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I'd love to tell you that the third time was the charm in this case, but there's more.
Yeah.
But I think I'd lead with the phrase several explosions, which as you probably guessed, it
certainly implies more than three.
Yeah, I would say a few is two to three, several is four to five or more.
What's the word for more than five?
Oh no, there was more than five.
Oh my god.
That's not great.
Oh, wow.
It's really, it's a really upsetting like, and honestly, we'll talk about it as well, but
like people and rightly so, they were pissed.
I can only imagine like the aftermath of all this and like knowing that like it could have
been prevented.
Yeah.
I mean, can you imagine any other major city like if you have, I mean, we're taking about
a five mile like area of city that's just like, and it's densely populated.
And you can tell that in all of the pictures too.
You can tell that.
And I mean, that was also a big part of why I wanted to talk about the market too, because
it's always so packed.
It is.
I was just saying that.
I was like, it's so packed, but it's so big.
Oh my god.
And it's right there.
Well, and then the date of this incident also coincides with a holiday Easter.
It was, it was Easter.
Okay.
It was fucking Easter.
Okay.
So yeah, that would have been crowded.
There's also like a big, big church around there too.
The cathedral of Guadalajara.
So I can only, I can only imagine how crowded.
Not to mention the historic downtown tenants is always crowded anyway.
Oh, I just, it just, you just can't even like wrap your head around like somebody basically
like thinking that anything else is more important than like making sure everybody.
The safety of the people like, come on.
Yes.
I'm like, oh, let me guess.
He probably doesn't live on Gante Street.
Right.
There was another explosion less than five minutes later on González Gallo Avenue.
And by 1015, the factory workers on that same avenue began evacuating the area.
The fifth explosion was at Gante Street and Calzada del Ejército.
Oh, yeah, I heard a secret.
Just before 10:30, another neighboring area was also evacuated.
In five minutes, the sixth explosion occurs at the intersection of de Febrero and
Río Bravo.
The seventh explosion.
Every number.
I'm like, oh, my God.
Yeah.
Honestly, it just again, I cannot, I don't even know how else to say it, but it's like you just
can't believe that it just keeps going.
And they're all like pretty close in time too.
They are.
Yes.
The seventh explosion is at Gante Street and Silverio García.
Shortly after additional rescue personnel arrived to aid the victims in the affected areas,
there was an eighth explosion at 11:02 at Río Nilo Avenue and Río Grande.
My God.
This explosion would initiate evacuation efforts in several more neighboring areas.
So after the eighth explosion, they finally aren't evacuating people.
Yeah.
Eight explosions.
Yeah.
Basically, I think it's, I think the very, very first evacuation starts after the fifth explosion.
Right.
Okay.
And I believe that was because it was in a super dense.
This is the factory one.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I think that kind of explains it because I feel like a factory setting is even more dangerous.
Yeah.
I mean, there's not a good place to be.
During an explosion?
No.
Not really.
Oh my God.
Not really.
Okay.
But there is an end in sight.
The two final explosions occurred at 11:16.
That's right.
In case you lost track.
To what the same time.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Basically, it's possible that they were like maybe a minute apart, but I feeling with all
of the chaos, it would be pretty hard to keep track.
But these are seven and eight or eight and nine or nine and ten.
I'm like, I lost nine and ten.
Oh my God.
Nine and ten.
Oh my God.
Yes.
Ten mother-freaking explosions.
Wow.
I just like it kind of takes your breath away a little bit.
Even before the explosions concluded, people throughout the Guadalajara metro area removed
manholes in an attempt to allow any residual gases to escape.
Additionally, several neighboring areas were notified to be aware and cautious.
So there's multiple other neighborhoods that they hadn't had explosions specifically
in those neighborhoods or districts, but they were really concerned that it was still
a possibility.
Right.
So I mean, that just makes it like an even more massive area, even more complicated.
Like all the chaos from.
Yeah.
Wendering.
Oh my God.
Is it going to happen here too?
I mean, can you imagine?
I don't think I would be able to like function.
Oh no.
Like forget, forget falling asleep that night.
You know?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm just started in the morning.
Yeah.
But in your whole day.
What time were the last explosions?
Just after 11, it was 11.16 a.m.
Okay.
So I mean, you're talking about a little over an hour, ten different explosions.
A little hour of hell.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
It's going to stay pretty hellish for a minute.
Oh yeah.
Unfortunately.
Oh yeah.
After, after, after, after everything, finally, the people, the mess, yeah.
Collapse buildings.
Oh my God.
There were so many collapse buildings.
And it's so crazy though, because, you know, again, like I haven't visited this part of Mexico
specifically, but like seeing where obviously like the blast radius, like there's a defined
area, like it's not just going to blow up everything everywhere.
Right.
But it's so strange to see where there's like buildings that were completely like level.
And then like right next to it is like a building that looks like it was totally fine.
Insane.
I just like the stress of like, oh my God.
Like hopefully you were, you know, able, you were in one of the buildings that didn't
get leveled.
And, you know, then we're unharmed and like could just start helping people.
Yeah.
I mean, horrific.
Man.
The investigation that followed the devastation revealed two contributing factors to the multiple
explosions.
Okay.
So there's a little bit more science, but it's short.
I'll sum it up for you right now.
So some metals don't mix just kind of like traditionally.
And this isn't the best example because it doesn't feel equally serious.
But when it comes to fashion, you might not mix certain patterns like you don't wear
plaid and stripes.
Right.
Typically do you, but but like don't do that.
Yeah, probably don't.
But new zinc coated iron pipes were placed way too close to an existing steel gasoline pipeline,
and electrolytic reaction similar to the interior of a zinc carbon battery.
So these are the kind that we use in like TV remotes, smoke detectors and a ton of other
stuff like the normal AA batteries.
Basically, yeah, I mean, they're they're in everything.
I don't know.
We just we interact passively with so many of the like different things that have this type
of battery.
They didn't even think about it.
No.
And honestly, it's the fact that we're talking about what we view as such an inert or innocuous
thing in that regard that like makes it even more scary.
Like, yeah.
So what happens when these two meet or whatever like what is a cream here?
So it's basically creating the same type of reaction that happens inside of a battery.
And that is not it.
Listen, I told you what kind it was.
Okay.
Well, I don't know.
No, but I actually I do have there's like it does explain like what it does.
Oh, I'm not going to explain the inside of a battery, but I will explain like what it
did here.
If that is it.
Yes.
Okay.
Oh, wait, I don't know how batteries were.
The reaction corroded the steel pipe resulting in a gasoline leak that permeated not just
the ground, but also the main sewer pipe.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
This is the cause of it all.
Yes.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
You would think they would know this would happen.
I don't know.
I mean, I would think that, you know, people who are in civil engineering should know, right?
I mean, you would think.
Oh, my God.
Like who approved this?
Honestly, it made me look at their batteries a little bit different.
I was like, that's what it's doing.
Right.
Are they safe?
No.
The second factor was the recent rebuild on the sewer piping.
When the city wanted to expand its underground metro railway system, they were modified to
a U shape.
Usually sewer systems are built with a slope to allow gravity to aid in moving waste through
the system for the U shape that they switched over to to work.
An inverted siphon was placed so that fluids could be pushed underneath by gravity.
So we're kind of just using what we already have problem solved, right?
Well, inverted siphons require uniform fluid for proper operation.
When presented with liquids of different densities, as was the case in Guadalajara system,
and honestly, I would imagine this would be true of any...
Any...
Yeah.
It's like, yeah.
It's not uniform liquid.
Right.
Yeah, because it's sewer.
It's sewer.
Sewers?
I don't think I need to, and I'm not going to explain that further.
No, I think we get it.
I think we're good.
Only the densest would pass through the siphon.
What this means is that anything of a lesser density, like air and water would pass freely,
but leave the lighter density gasoline trapped and continuing to accumulate.
Oh.
And I cannot stress this enough.
This is bad.
Yeah.
No window.
Eventually, the liquid gasoline that had accumulated would evaporate, and the sewer system filled
with the explosive vapors as they progressed, because density.
I feel like Bill Nye a little bit.
Bill, Bill.
Bill Nye, this science guy.
Oh, don't sue us.
No, you know, the classroom was going to be lit when they brought in the TV and put the
tape in, and it was Bill, you know, yes.
Yeah.
Fuck it.
Boo, boo.
Silence.
A full three days later, panic was at risk of being reignited when multiple neighborhood
residents were warned to avoid lighting any flames as the smell of gas became increasingly
pervasive.
Oh, God.
So this is like four different neighborhoods.
Oh, my God.
So another massive like surface area that now all of a sudden they are like.
Endangerer.
Yeah.
Could we be next?
Oh, my God.
And of course, at this point, like it's three days later, everybody knows what's happened.
Right.
So what's awaiting it actually happens?
Yeah.
This was later confirmed to be a leak in a Pemex pipe.
Keep in mind that prior to the explosions, people had been annoyed and had maybe raised
some concerns.
But there wasn't widespread alarm because La Nogalera was undergoing their annual spring
cleaning, which is a gasoline storage facility under the state owned monopoly Pemex.
While we're on the topic of Pemex, the public believe that Pemex was to blame for the tragedy.
So basically public opinion is like fuck Pemex.
Yeah.
And feeling in Mexico.
Honestly, I can believe it because after researching this, I'm like, wow, we obviously,
like we've experienced like in kind of a different like application, but like there have been issues
with, you know, power lines or other like we have our own issues with our infrastructure
and like the utilities and things like that.
And I was like, damn, yeah, I think I would feel exactly the same way.
For sure.
And I mean, these were Pemex own plume or whatever, right?
Gas or whatever lines.
So yeah, of course they're going to be blamed.
But also like somebody put those pipes in.
Somebody should have came and checked what was going on when people were complaining like
Pemex and the government are probably used my guess.
I mean, the worst part is that like city workers actually went and they inspected and they
were finding dangerous levels and they were told to dismiss it.
I'm assuming they basically and I mean, it was reported on and like all of the local government
was aware, but they just didn't do anything.
Man.
I mean, if sitting on your hands could be an official charge.
As the theory goes, it was due in part to embezzlement of gasoline from the facility.
There it is.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Not the price.
I know.
I was like, this is, I feel like I was winning for something more corrupt.
I'm like, all right, this is already bad.
But like when is the corruption going to be?
I know.
I was like, this has to be.
There's got to be like something that's more of a corruption angle because like otherwise
how do we get here?
It just right.
Like why?
Well, what's the reason?
What kind of it?
Otherwise, it's just, it just doesn't feel like the math is mathing.
At the end, capitalism.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
It's like, great.
Wow.
It was, it was capitalism all along.
I know.
It's anonymous with greed to me.
Basically.
Yeah.
No, 1000%.
It was rumored that an inspection of the facility by the attorney general's office was
eminent.
And the staff was fearful.
They could be caught with an oversupply of gasoline.
Rather than face any repercussions, because obviously who would do that?
Right.
It's kind of ability for what I've done.
No.
I don't think so.
No.
They opted to simply dump the excess down the drain.
Oh my God.
And they didn't think what could have happened.
What could go wrong?
Right.
Dumping all these gas.
Oh my God.
Just like into your sewer system.
Like what?
Wow.
Because I feel like to me, I was kind of like, okay, everything leading up to this.
It makes sense how like the reaction.
Like, all right, we've got the pipes that shouldn't be next to each other.
We've got like this gas leak thing going on.
That's building up.
But like what was the final like, like the final push, like the final oomph, like, there
it is.
Yeah.
I wonder how all this gas got here.
Right.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't know if you've, if you've ever seen this, but there it, it made me think of this
TikTok that it's one of my favorites.
It's this guy just like basically, he must just presumably he's outside on a walk or something.
And it just quickly develops into a jog.
And eventually he's like full ass sprinting.
And the whole time he's singing, I don't want no consequence.
Consequence, consequence, consequence.
Consequence is a thing.
But this is this.
This is all of that.
Yeah.
Consequences of my actions chasing me right now.
I don't even know if that's the right to, but that's now.
I have a lot of crosses.
Wow.
Look at the stuff we're going to miss out on to.
It's like a band.
I know.
According to a report by the Jalisco State Human Rights Commission, there was account
of 1142 homes affected.
Oh my God.
450 shops.
100 schools.
Wow.
I know schools.
It's a lot of schools.
Insane.
In a five mile radius.
Yes.
Sorry.
Where's there so many schools?
I have so many follow up questions based on the numbers and stuff.
I can't help but wonder if some of that is classified as schools.
If it's like maybe like also like childcare facilities.
I was going to say that.
I think some are like actual childcare facilities.
It's also not just schools.
Yeah.
It's 100 vehicles.
I mean, and like you said, it's five miles eight kilometers of just.
Yeah.
Also wild because like so many people use the public transportation system and taxis.
Yeah.
A ton.
So I'm like, I'm surprised if there's that many cars.
Yeah.
Well, and you know, that's another one of those things where, you know, it says vehicles
that could include like buses and taxis.
I don't know.
Oh, true.
Not like personal vehicles.
Yeah.
I feel like we tend to think of like, like if somebody just says a car, I think of like
a personal vehicle.
But yeah, because we have no public transportation infrastructure in this country.
No, it's but in Guadalajara, it's fantastic.
Except the buses are crazy.
They're like really?
It's like, it's like a roller coaster getting into the bus.
Really?
You got to run in because they're going to like run you over.
Oh, because they're busy.
They'll literally hit other cars like, you know, to, it's fun though.
It's wild.
Ryan, I will say.
Well, I don't know if I have the stomach for that.
They don't play.
No.
And I don't have the stomach to drive and whether I had out at all, it's even crazier.
So I'm like, I will take my chances with the bus or a taxi, but I'm not ever driving.
Yeah.
That sounds crazy.
It's wild.
Yeah.
Also, you'll see like people on like a motorcycle and it will be like a.
But that I'm driving the mom and front holding a baby and then like two kids hanging on the
back like.
Stop it.
Yeah, nobody's as car seats.
So yeah.
Oh my gosh.
People still ride in the back of trucks.
I feel like.
And that's now.
So I can only imagine back then.
Like, yeah.
I feel like there's certain things like riding in the back of the truck.
I feel like there's a lot of places you might sometimes see that, but.
Well, like you're not going to see that I'm driving down the freeway here.
No, not usually.
And you're not here.
Sure.
I'm not going to see five people on like a moped or something.
Yeah.
But over there, you will.
It's wild.
That's wild.
The blast measured at seven and seven point one according to the University of Mexico's
Richter scale.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's high.
Oh my god.
Yes.
I mean, it's not like the deadiest.
I've certainly seen, you know, I think there have been a couple of earthquakes in the last
couple of decades that were like a nine on the Richter scale in parts of South America.
But like, I don't, it doesn't need to be any higher.
Seven is like, that's crazy.
Yeah.
So there were trenches up to 25 feet deep that had been born into the streets.
Wow.
The colonies that suffered the most damage were the alamos, atlas, Olympica and Anelco.
At a government sports complex, bodies of some of the victims were laid out on a basketball
court under white tarps.
Many of whom were older women, children and.
Oh god.
I'm so sorry.
Babies.
I don't even really like babies personal.
They're not for me.
Right.
But I mean, any life loss tragic, but like a newborn, a baby that hasn't gotten to live
that long and children always it's harder for sure.
Yeah.
It just feels like, you know, that's someone who cannot advocate for themselves.
They can't protect themselves.
Right.
It's so sad.
There's a reason they're part of the most vulnerable.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Total monetary damages were estimated between 300 million and 3 billion.
So pretty.
Wow.
Like that's a really wide window.
Like 3 million is already a lot and then you 3 billion.
Whoa.
Yeah.
And that's in the fucking 90s.
Yeah.
Keep that in mind because like with inflation now, it's like.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
Just mind blowing.
But so surely for this magnitude of devastation, there must be not only an explanation, but also
consequences.
Accountability.
Yeah.
And you would be right.
But there wasn't.
Well, President Carlos Salinas Dick Gortjari gave investigators 72 hours to find the cause
of the blast and pledged to quote, punish those found responsible.
Big talk.
The governor of the state of Hilesco Guillermo, Cocio, the Dory accompanied Salinas on his tour
and said his government was investigating possible negligence by three city officials
for minimizing local residents complaints about the gas smell emanating from the sewers.
So this feels a little bit like a dog in poniesho.
It's kind of like they were the scapegoats.
Well, I mean, it's like the president is visiting and then, you know, you've got like the governor
kind of shepherding him around.
Well, they have to.
This sounds like an extreme like, yeah, worse, because you know, when there's earthquakes,
everyone comes flying in and like, it's true.
Yeah.
But now this, I mean, it's like almost at the level of like some of the most devastating
earthquakes in Mexico today.
Yeah.
Same level of like casualties.
So I'm not surprised by the governor and the president both being there.
I'm wondering are those three the only responsible?
I don't think so because someone else dumped all that gas into the sewage system.
Like, yeah, they probably did it more complaints.
Well, we know they did, right?
Because people were calling it complaining and I think was done.
But like they surely are not the only ones responsible for this.
Well, and I think in this case, like, truth be told, these two are like, they're out kind
of serving the devastation.
But I don't think that they're really the ones that are responsible.
Like the president isn't responsible for like a local level emergency evacuation.
I mean, no, right.
But him responding to the aftermath, I could see why he's there and it would be weird
if he wasn't there.
Oh, it totally would be.
And the only reason why I say like that it feels like a dog and pony show is because I think
it's the level of like almost like machismo where it's like, oh, we're going to punish them.
And it's very like, it feels very forceful, you know?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But like someone needs to be blamed.
And like both I mean, Mexico and the United States and probably a lot of places are very
like a pro punishment type plays like send them feed them to the dogs or whatever people
say.
I don't know what to say.
So someone for a couple of completely understand the president like fine, who's responsible.
Yeah.
And all this has like been politicized at the same time.
Like it's a very public like, you know, him saying all this too.
So yeah, I could see all that too.
Yeah.
I think a lot of people obviously were rightly very upset.
I mean, people have lost loved ones, they're homes.
I mean, just a devastating circumstance.
So it's like, it's not surprising.
Like, of course, he's going to like try to take a strong stance.
What else do you do?
Not to mention the like what's it called?
Projection of like, it wasn't us, although somebody failed to properly.
Yeah, I think we're going to find it.
And yeah, like, oh, we're going to find it.
But it's like Spider-Man playing on himself.
Like, yeah, the government is partly responsible.
Yeah, for this, but they're going to make a show out of like, finding who else was responsible
because they don't want to be the ones blamed.
Yeah.
April 27th, both the mayor, who would subsequently resign from office and the secretary for urban
and rural development were detained on charges related to heating the warding signs and failing
to evacuate the area.
Oh, good, because they should be responsible.
Yeah.
Okay.
I totally agree.
The secretary for urban and rural development, like that person seems like probably like one
of the point people in terms of like, and I was like, who, who wasn't definitely in the
gas.
I mean, that's Pemex people presumably, but were they arrested?
Well, it's funny, you should say.
Additionally, there were four executives reportedly arrested, some with Siapa, essentially, that's
the local municipal water lords of yours.
Just in case you aren't familiar with like international utilities.
Where would you be?
Yeah.
Why would you be?
And then there were also some from Pemex that were arrested.
Okay.
Good.
Yeah.
I was about to say, if no one is arrested for this, oh no.
I know.
Can you imagine?
I mean, I could have pictured being like, I'm like, I felt like it could go either way.
Like, either people were arrested or people were not like.
Well, then three days later, the governor of Helusco took a leave of absence, leaving Guadalajara
for Spain.
He never returned to his role following the tragedy.
Wow.
Okay.
He's like, I quit, but first going on vacation.
Wow.
And never returned.
He stayed in Spain.
He may have since returned to Mexico, but he didn't go back to high school.
No.
He never came back to his post like as a government official.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh my god.
Pretty wild.
Wow.
Oh, and remember how I said you would be right about there being both explanations and consequences
for the tragedy.
I did say that, well, see, it's not that I lied per se.
But you may not feel very satisfied with the end result on honestly, either front to
be honest.
The Mexican government has refused to admit fault on their part.
Okay.
Not surprise.
Yeah.
It is the Mexican government.
Nobody.
It is a government.
I was going to say I was like, I mean, I would say it.
Having covered so many stories in Mexico, like the Mexican government itself.
But then you add in like, it's just any government.
It really is.
Yeah.
Of course, they're not going to take kind of what's more, there are 43,000 page report following
the explosions, refused to place blame on any of the executives or government officials
that were initially.
No.
Who got the coin to lie on this long ass report?
Yep.
Not surprised.
So sadly not surprised.
I know.
I was like, oh, god, she's just kind of like flipper lid.
No, I expect there's this.
Yeah.
Oh, man.
You're like actually this fits more in line with what my expectation was.
I was more surprised.
Actually, it sounds about right.
I'm surprised anyone was like arrested at all.
I kind of was too.
And maybe like in the back of my mind, that's sort of where I get like the doc and pony show
thing.
Because it's like, right.
It's like they literally did that for show.
Oh, yeah.
I feel.
I thought at minimum, it was super douchey, but realistically, a major abuse of power.
100%.
Yeah.
I feel like we were just talking about like, you know, every government has their thing.
And I feel like on the flip side, one thing that I really hate about the United States government
that is super douchey and an abuse of power is they won't tell us who really killed Kennedy.
Right.
They're basically the same thing except casually multiplied by hundreds, if not thousands
of times.
One of these things is a little bit more serious.
Yeah.
I really want to know who killed Kennedy, but like he's just one dude.
Do you listen to true and on?
It sounds really silly, but also like you should listen to their Kennedy series.
It's good.
Yeah.
Pemex would make a corporate donation equivalent to $2 million USD.
They should have given more money.
Yeah, that's not a lot.
They should have paid all the damages and more.
Well, and here's the thing.
That $2 million was to be split between the family members who lost loved ones that day
or those that were injured.
So I mean, we're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of people.
Yeah.
And when you start adding the people, that's not enough money.
No.
Not to mention people need to rebuild their homes.
Right.
No.
Christina, I'm going to be honest with you.
Like I don't have a million dollars now and I don't expect to anytime soon, but I will
say this, if the two of us were involved in an explosion, I would certainly hope that
our settlement would be more than $2 million.
Right.
Like that's just, that's not enough.
No, no.
For the number of people affected, no.
No.
And they did that basically to try to like get a little bit of like goodwill back.
Yeah.
Like for a good publicity.
Yeah.
Honestly, it sounds like like broadly speaking, the public really saw through that.
Oh, of course.
And it's Pemex.
Like people already hate Pemex.
Yeah.
I can only imagine they did this because of the immense backlash from the company because
they have to do something.
Yes.
Exactly.
But get this.
Pemex, one of the driving forces behind this was the fact that they were still reeling
from a 1984 Mexico City propane explosion.
Oh, God.
This is not their first rodeo with explosions.
Wow.
And that was the explosion that killed 450 people.
And that one they were found responsible for.
So they already had like their feet to the fire.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
I'm not surprised.
I know.
I was just like, wow, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Like of course this happened already somewhere else.
And it sounds like there were, I mean, it's not maybe something that like it doesn't
get reporting on like an explosion would, but it was very common to have very frequent
like gas leaks and things like that.
So it's like people were aware that there were issues.
So this last part that I'll leave you with was at first confusing, especially as I came
across considerable discussion about how not evacuating had increased civilian casualties.
During the deadly events of April 22nd, just over a week later, protesters gathered outside
the governor's palace in Guadalajara as another gas leak threatened the homes and the very
lives of many more.
After residents of the Alamo district, South of Reforma said they smelled fumes, Guadalajara
Mayor ordered the evacuation of several square blocks.
The area is surrounded by about 40 factories.
That's a lot.
Including a plant operated by Petrolios, Mexicanos, known as Pemex.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
So there's a couple of times in the story where I mentioned that they, you know, refused
to evacuate, refused to evacuate.
Basically it was, you know, from the time of I think the fifth explosion where all of
this and the tune is changing.
And ironically, the reason why is that they finally got close to those big government
and corporate interests.
That's when it mattered.
Yeah.
Five explosions and when it affected them.
Yeah.
It took me a while to work that out because so much of what I was reading was just like they
didn't evacuate.
They didn't evacuate.
And then I started seeing stuff about like, well, wait, what's this?
What's about the, in the factory district after the fifth explosion?
And I'm like, these dirty, dirty, these motherfuckas.
Yeah.
I just had a branch hit my window.
You're like, oh my God, what was that?
Yeah.
So that is the Guadalajara explosions.
You know, I love a good corruption story on a Tuesday afternoon.
So thank you.
I know.
Really cheerful.
Love it.
A good way to, you know, leading up to the Christmas hall with me.
Just what we need.
Yeah.
Very cheerful.
Do you want to stick around for tarot?
Do you want to do the tarot reading with me?
Sure.
Haven't used these ones in a while.
So they needed a good shuffle.
Okay.
I've got them spread out.
Any thoughts into it?
I have no intuition.
No.
I guess there it is.
Oh.
What is that?
The night of so.
What does it mean?
All right.
Our keywords for the night of swords are daring, chivalry, forthrightness, impatience,
single-mindedness, and insensitivity.
Am I those things?
No.
We always try to see if there's like any parallels at all to you.
Like the case itself.
Sometimes we do make it about us.
Okay.
About the case.
That makes more sense.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, there's no hard and fast rules around here.
You know.
You've hung out with us enough.
Yes.
Night often symbolize messages or travel.
Some decks, including the writer Wait Smith-Tero, show this night rushing help vent toward an
adversary or adventure.
If he represents a person you know, he may be someone who's overly aggressive or argumentative
who lives in attack mode.
Or he might be a spiritual warrior, one who uses his intellect to examine and purify
himself.
The upright night may suggest you're passionate about your ideas and believe wholeheartedly
in the rightness of your objective.
With his card represents an actual person, he's probably a young man who expresses his ideas
enthusiastically and may have trouble understanding other viewpoints.
He has a quick mind and keen intellect, but may lack true wisdom.
Sometimes this night symbolizes an urgent message or an unexpected trip.
Oh.
Like, to Spain.
Like the guy who left the Spain in the ocean.
And never be turned to his job.
I feel like this.
I mean, I'm sure there's more parallels that you could draw that I feel like I'm like,
that's all I needed here.
That's what I needed.
Yeah.
Okay.
In a reading about money, you may need to act quickly in a financial matter, but don't neglect
to study the situation before making a decision.
Too late.
The upright night may point to a trip for financial reasons or a message about money.
Sometimes he harolds a change in your resources.
If the reading is about your job, this card can represent a business trip.
Sometimes it means a job change or a shift in work related responsibilities.
Okay.
Like a bad name.
Your work related responsibilities.
Yeah.
That's correct.
Yeah.
Wow.
I feel so caution you to hold your tongue and buy your time diplomacy is important though.
Well, okay.
Okay.
Well, I don't know that I feel like the love connection bullet point makes a lot of sense
for this case, but I feel like the rest of that felt like some of us for sure are affable.
Yeah.
I mean, the whole thing with like the terror reading anyway is just that it's like,
you know, what do we see?
It's like kind of.
It's almost like, you know, paint by numbers like, you know, what parallels we can draw
and yeah.
Yeah.
This is so much fun.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Tell them we brought this terrible disaster.
I know.
I'm like, oh, man.
I didn't really think about it, but in hindsight, I'm like, sorry.
This is something happening.
I know.
It's like a horrible thing that happened in a place that you love, but honestly, I love talking
about horrible things that happen in place of love.
I mean, clearly me too.
That's kind of our whole brand.
So, right?
Yeah.
But when I saw that you had multiple, multiple episodes about like Guadalajara, like hauntings
and things, I was like, she can handle it.
I can.
And I do.
She can handle it.
I know.
I started listening through because I was like, oh, damn.
She's got, I think I was like in spooky tales.
I was like, I think there's like three.
That's for--
Yeah, there's three or four long, yeah.
Guadalajara alone, yeah.
It's just a very haunting place.
Beautiful, but haunting.
So many stories.
I'm surprised.
There's not.
I haven't found one connected to this disaster and that's surprising to me.
Yeah.
I mean, it's in our lifetime.
Yeah.
It's not like it happened yesterday, but I would not be surprised if--
It's actually a few months before my lifetime.
So what?
I was born in August '92.
It's happened in April '92, right?
Oh my God.
I forgot your fetus.
Oh, baby.
I'm just a baby.
32-year-old baby.
Oh my God.
I was born in the 80s.
Oh my God.
So, yes.
I'm very, very old.
To the young ones, I'm old too.
So, it's okay.
We're like elders now.
No, I know.
and I could do without that. I don't really need that. I feel old enough when I wake up every morning
and have back in the morning. Oh my God, I knew we can't be starting on. Back pain.
So Kristina, obviously we need you to plug all of the things about all of your things,
your projects. Yes, two shows now. Or do you have a show, a secret show that even I don't know about?
Two. Two. Okay, two now and yeah. If you started third podcasts... Oh, I tried and then I don't
know this too much. I can't keep up with it. It was... It's a lot of work. Too much. Too much work.
Yeah. Well, if you like haunted places, myths, legends, true crime, then check out
Espootketel, psychosis with my twin. We talk about all those things, but with the focus on Latin
America. So it's a lot of stuff that maybe you haven't heard about. If you're only listening to
things in English that happened in, I don't know, the United States. So yeah, that's a lot of fun.
Who even cares about that place? And then my other podcast is called "Eastorias Unknown." That's
history in Spanish. So "Eastorias" and then "Unknown." It's in English, so the podcast, just the name
is half of Spanish. Yeah. And we talk about Latin American history or history to Latinos,
Latinas in the US. And it's like things like, "Oh my god, why didn't I learn that in school?" So
that sounds like something interesting to you. Then yeah, check that one out. I also co-set with my twin.
And love it. What else? If you like more serious, not people telling each other a story,
I do produce and write episodes for horror story. You do. Okay, so I knew you were holding out.
Oh, exactly. I do work for Scary FM, for Edwin. Yeah. Of course.
And then "True Scary Story," I edit like story, edit on that one. So that's other work that I do.
Honestly, work that I do with too much to name. So seriously, well, I knew about Scary Story. I
didn't know about horror story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah, you can tell when I
just go over because the quality just, you know, shot a... Through the rules. Through the rules. Yes.
I haven't listened to the new show yet, so I have to do that. I love history. Oh, yeah. It's a,
I mean, it's a lot of depressing stories and like, I don't know, some people like to hear very
one-sided version of a history where they're like, oh, this is very biased and you're wrong. And I'm
sorry, I'm telling something to happen. And if you don't like what happened, doesn't mean that it's biased,
you know? And it's a lot of like, oh my god, I can't believe the United States did this. So yeah,
I can come off as like, oh, this is like, do you just hate America? First of all, yes, but...
Yeah, we kind of suck. Yeah. Like, internationally, we've had some pretty bad...
Not a good look. Yeah. But yeah, it's like a... That's fair. You know, the Salvadoran Civil War,
the Guadaluam Islands Civil War, the International Adoption in Chile and Guatemala, which has both been
super corrupt. So episodes like that, the bath rights have been in no Paso in 1917. So yeah,
just things that you're like, wow, why didn't I learn about this? Thank you so much for coming on
with us and doing the story with me. Thanks for inviting me. Have a creepy ass day. Oh, why do you
know? It's pretty good. It's kind of good to me, I don't know. It did. It did as soon as we finished it,
you started glitching out and you had robot boy. Oh, no. That was so funny.
Is it like you complimented me for a paragraph? It's basically just bragging about how much like
were like friends and stuff and I'm like, oh, I love that. Okay, perfect. Yeah, well, let's hear it.
Chronically guard adventures like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like, you guys, we hang out. We've been places,
haunted places. Exactly. I feel like it's a good way to kind of be like, hey, go listen to that
episode if you haven't listened to it. pnwhauntsandhomicides.com