Marsha Hart, the executive director of the Coos Bay History Museum, said of the project,
"To me, the importance of this day is to recognize a past historical event in the context of the times,
one that is shocking to imagine that it occurred in our community,
and one that is part of a greater story about the unjust treatment of the Indian tribes
and minority pioneers in our state."
Hi Cassie! Hi Caitlyn! Hello creepy people!
Hello!
That's so funny I heard somebody talking about the "Hello!" from Mrs. Doubtfire the other day,
and they couldn't do it. Oh, it was like from us? No!
You didn't even say that up!
Anyway, I guess we'll introduce ourselves.
If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides,
where we chat about true crime, paranormal, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest.
And we do a tarot reading at the end for deeper insight into this episode, so make sure you stick around if you're into that.
Yeah, and hopefully you are, you should be.
We're going coastal today.
Ooh, yeah!
I feel like you like to go coastal. You've gone coastal a couple of times.
Yeah, I feel like coastal, maybe that's like kind of a thing for me.
Sort of the beachy waves vibe.
The salt and the sand in your hair and toes.
I get it. I'm a crab. I live on the beach.
True. True.
And yet we've seen far less little segues off to the beach from you, I feel like.
Yeah, I feel like have I done one? Is this a sign?
Bandage man, sort of. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How did you remember that?
I don't know. I really don't.
I couldn't tell you. I'm impressed.
How does anyone remember anything? That's really the question, I think.
I couldn't tell you.
Well, any who, I'm going to get started.
Who's Bay off the coast of Oregon State is the largest coastal city in the Southwestern coastal region with a population of approximately because this might be a slightly old statistic.
16,615.
Okay, that's the largest.
Yes, in that region.
That's a that big.
No, it also boasts the third largest art museum in Oregon.
Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I love going to the art museums at the beach.
I feel like you have to do that at the beach.
There's always an art museum around.
I think so. Yeah, pretty much every time I go to the beach regardless of what little city that I end up in, there's kind of like a minimum.
It's like a gallery, like a local gallery. You got to check that out.
That in an antique store.
Yes, yes.
Historically known as Marshfield, the city was founded in 1853.
It was named after the Massachusetts hometown of the city's founder, JC Talman.
In 1944, the local residents voted to change the name to Coos Bay.
Though the name Marshfield versus Coos Bay and other would be contenders remained a point of contention for a short time.
Coos Bay would eventually stick.
Marshfield doesn't sound like the beach.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, I mean, I guess it sounds more like a Marsh or a field.
Yeah, little on the nose, I guess.
Yeah, but you know, also, whose is just fun to say.
It really is. It really is.
The name Coos is said to be derived from a number of sources.
In fact, even the city of Coos Bay, Oregon History website, says that the name is likely taken from one of the areas Native American tribes and has two Indian meanings,
Lake and place of pines.
However, a noted Malook or Malook is really hard to get an accurate pronunciation guide for that name specifically.
However, a noted Malook language expert and tribal member has said that she believes its origin ties back to the Lewis and Clark expedition and the word for south in the coups language,
which has two dialects, one of which is Malook.
She also provides a simple pronunciation guide for many of the languages or dialects of the confederated tribes.
So I'm inclined to go with her opinion.
Pretty much anything she says, she's kind of the expert in the tribal languages and dialects.
Yeah, I believe it.
Though, notably, not for the word or name, Malook itself, but with a bit of digging, I think I may have stuck the landing.
So I think it is Malook.
I believe you.
I hope I am correct.
And also, if you're not, you really tried.
I really did.
And I think this next section, you're going to start to understand why it is so incredibly difficult.
And I feel awful for even complaining because the root of the issue is just very sad.
According to ethnologue, the coups language belongs to the Kuzn language family and is a dormant or still language of the United States, meaning that it shows no signs of digital support.
The language is no longer used as a first language by any remaining members of the ethnic community and it is not known to be taught in schools.
Oh, that's so sad.
In addition to the previously mentioned pronunciation guide, I did, however, find an interview with Laura Hodgkis Metcalf dating back to 1953.
There is a recording of the interview containing the 284 different Malook words she spoke during that session.
She is remembered by co-kill tribal members as Lolly Metcalf.
Lolly?
That not the cutest.
That is really cute.
Her sister, Daisy Wasen Codding.
That's cute too.
Was not fluent but assisted with the creation of the historical record as well.
Decades prior in the 1930s, Annie Minor Peterson was considered perhaps the last and best speaker of the language, producing two volumes of texts of both Hannes and Malook dialects of the Kuzn language.
The confederated tribes of Kuz, Lower Amquah, Sayusla Indians as well as the co-kill Indian tribe called the Kuzbe region, their ancestral home.
Despite the lengthy background provided regarding Kuzbe in indigenous history, that's not really what we're here to talk about today.
I mean, not just that.
Today we'll be talking about one man in particular.
He too has little written as record of his existence.
Ooh, ominous.
Yes.
Which seems odd for a person who lived in a particular place and at a point in history that now seems deeply and yet also darkly momentous.
His life and death could have easily remained a tragedy almost entirely lost to history.
Though some of the details of his life may remain unclear, the tragic death of Alonzo Tucker is in alarming, vivid, full focus in hindsight for those familiar with the story.
Alonzo was born in Maryland and later moved to Sacramento, where he was a prized fighter.
Before eventually coming to Coos County, only two years prior to his brutal murder.
Holy shit, he was a prized fighter?
He was.
He fought for prizes.
He was a boxer, you know.
Well, that's crazy.
Reporting on one of his fights in the Sacramento area touted it as the best ever seen in that section of California.
So not just a prized fighter, but a pretty, pretty good one.
Damn, I wonder how many prizes he won.
I'm not sure.
Another article by the Sacramento Bee described his arrest following a physical altercation, one that took place outside of the formal setting of a boxing ring.
He had only become involved to stop the fight and was in fact found not guilty.
This feels particularly remarkable when one considers that in this era, he would have faced an all-male jury of white men.
So emphasis on men and whiteness.
Wow, I never would have guessed that I thought you were going to say he was guilty for sure.
Yeah.
The justice system has been notoriously unkind, people of color throughout our nation's history.
The only thing I can think of is like were all those guys like betting on him or something?
Like, you know, it does kind of make you wonder, but I think that just the situation was just that it was clear he was just there trying to be, you know, a good smaritan.
He was an innocent bystander.
There must have been just like some super obvious evidence they couldn't figure out a way to make him guilty for.
Yeah, I mean that or maybe they were good people.
Yeah, I mean, there's on the outside chance.
Right.
Yeah, not likely.
Yeah, and I don't know that this was a fight with a white person.
So, you know, if you're not pitting, you know, two people of different racial backgrounds against each other, maybe they have less motive to unjustly convict him.
Yeah, that was my thought, but the equal justice initiative based in Montgomery, Alabama has documented the brutal killing of nearly 6,500 African Americans between the years 1865 to 1950.
Wow.
It's less than 100 years.
Alonzo Tucker is one of the more than 300 African-American victims killed in non-Southern states.
This crime has the unique and tragic distinction of being the only documented case to occur in the state of Oregon.
Oh.
Language is important here because some sources do indicate that there were likely more both elsewhere in the Pacific Northwest and in the state of Oregon specifically, though some may not have been documented or formally reported.
That makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to argue with that for a minute.
Yeah.
Is that possible one?
Yeah, I do think that probably the numbers are dramatically lower in Oregon, but maybe not for the reason that you think.
Recordkeeping was far less consistent, as well as far more onerous when it was all recorded and maintained purely by pen and paper.
And that's just one of many reasons why certain things may not have been documented throughout history.
That's a very easy scapegoat.
Yeah, I can't even write in a journal every day why would I want to document everything, you know?
Well, especially when it doesn't look great.
Oregon's historical relationship with the black community was at times, perhaps not quite so fraught as in many southern states at the turn of the 20th century.
But it's important to note that in many Oregon communities, black people were sometimes tolerated, though never welcomed.
I hate that statement.
That's definitely a statement. There's not really any question about that in reviewing the historical record.
The things that were recorded.
Dr. Darryl Milner, who happens to be one of the foremost historians regarding African Americans in the new frontier of the western United States,
sites a number of lynchings of black people, as well as that of Native Americans in the Oregon territory during the Civil War era.
This assertion is additionally supported by Andy E. Jensen, the author of multiple books concerning the history of Kuz County.
His book, Law on the Bay, Marshfield, Oregon, 1874 to 1944, points to a total of four black men potentially lynched in the state.
Oh, wow. So there is like some kind of record.
Maybe not an official record. Yeah.
Yeah. There's definitely information available.
Certainly not widely propagated or circulated, but it exists.
Dr. Milner also cites multiple instances of pseudo lynchings or practice lynchings at the Clans height in the 1920s.
What are they practicing on?
I have more information about that and you're not going to like it.
He states that those incidents for striking resemblance to an actual lynching, which is one of the more terrifying ideas occupying space rent free in my head literally ever and forever more.
In such a case, the intended target would be identified, captured and secreted away to an isolated location before the lynching would be simulated in dramatic fashion, though stopping short of killing the individual.
Often they would be driven out of tone by the promise of a real lynching in the future should they remain.
That's part of the lynching record as well. Dr. Milner explains.
What is so we're going to pretend to hang you.
That is just crazy and grow. I mean, it's gross to do it anyway, but also to like make it a show.
It's like entertainment. Real or pseudo lynches almost without exception in much of the United States treated as a form of entertainment for many.
That's so gross.
Oregon territory for these purposes consisting of Oregon, Washington and Idaho state as well as some parts of both Wyoming and Montana was engineered to be a racist white utopia.
Those familiar with both the historical events and legal proceedings of the day can point to a number of tangible ways that white supremacy was quite literally built into the policies laws and very societal or cultural fabric of the area.
Of course, to great detriment of multiple marginalized groups like the indigenous communities and African Americans.
Don't believe me. Take the Oregon donation land act of 1850, which gave away 2.5 million acres of indigenous land for free to white settlers.
1 320 acre parcel to each and every man willing to claim it at a time.
If that man was married, the couple could claim up to 640 acres, provided that the man was and this is a quote.
A white settler or occupant of the public lands, American half breed Indians included.
Above the age of 18 years, being a citizen of the United States or having made a declaration according to law of his intention to become a citizen.
They just given their shit away for free. They're not even trying to make money off of it.
Probably most of us have some cursory awareness of this, but it didn't stop there.
Next, black people were banned from living in the Oregon territory.
In essence, this law criminalized being black while also happening to be in the state.
Finally, to enforce the former, there was the lash law, which said black people would be publicly whipped up to 39 times every 6 months until they left the territory.
Jesus.
Yep.
It was 6 months later that this would be amended to forced public labor as a punishment rather than the lashes.
Oh my God, really? Quite generous. At the time.
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for punishing me for being me.
Oregon was the only state admitted to the union with a racially exclusionary clause in its constitution.
That black exclusion law language was not removed from Oregon's constitution until 2002.
Wait, what? No, that's fake. That's fake news.
It's Caitlin.
Despite continuous efforts by the black community to do so for almost a century.
2002?
There was also significant opposition in the 21st century from white Oregonians to take the language out.
Of course there was.
I'm not going to name any of the towns I'm thinking of right now.
Uh huh.
The 1900 census listed 36 African-American individuals as living in Kuz County.
And let's just say they did not refer to them as African-Americans.
Oh no. Did they use dirty words and laws or is this a law?
Well, this is the census. Wow.
By 1910, that number had dwindled to just 17.
I wonder why?
Because my next sentence says, "Gee, I wonder why?"
Truthfully, it's surprising that even that many remained by that time.
They were, after all, living in a state that from its very inception had designs on excluding them from its communities.
And the events that we're going to talk about today make that abundantly clear if the language of our laws did not.
Alonzo Tucker was said to be a hardworking and resourceful young married man at 28 years old.
We already know that he had been a boxer, but he would go on to wear many hats when it came to making a living.
He worked as a boot black, a male carrier, and was once even a small business owner when he opened his own gym.
Wow. That's so cool.
According to statements provided to newspaper The World, local Harry Walker spoke about much of what he recalled from the time that Alonzo Tucker was living in the area.
In order to train for upcoming boxing matches, Alonzo was known to run several miles each day.
And as always, he was also never one to miss out on an opportunity for extra income. Alonzo would carry mail between Marshfield and neighboring Libby on his runs.
Harry and other witnesses believed that there was another well-known, but typically little discussed reason why Alonzo took this same route frequently.
Oh, Alonzo, no! Yes.
Reportedly, Alonzo had been carrying on an affair with a white woman, reportedly named Lizzie Dennis, who was a local man or wife.
I'll just state that the name of this woman isn't totally clear in all of the source material, but that same name is used in multiple publications that I found.
And I think that's just because all we have to verify or back up most of the details of this case are decades old, eyewitness accounts.
But that was printed in the paper.
Okay.
There are newspaper articles about this case.
Wow. From way back when?
One day, the relationship either soured or was at risk of being discovered.
Many sources indicate the latter.
In fact, a trio of witnesses dating back to that time stated in a 1974 interview that Tucker and Mrs. Dennis were spotted together by the town doctor.
In any case, rather than admit the truth of the situation, the woman, Alonzo's once former lover, became his accuser.
Of course, effectively sealing his horrific fate.
Her accusation that a black man had raped her near South Marshfield's seventh street bridge carried significant weight.
A newspaper at the time wrote, she is highly esteemed for her pure womanhood.
No.
Yeah.
The odds appeared to be very much against him in this case, unlike his previous judicial experience.
There was little reason to be optimistic about the outcome of a criminal trial.
But there is no official record of what happened since Alonzo Tucker never had a trial.
The co-kill city herald reported that Mrs. Ben Dennis of Libby, a woman it was said, was above reproach.
What does that mean?
When somebody says above reproach or beyond reproach, they're saying like your authority on the matter or the level of trustworthiness for you in this particular matter is without question.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Very little power in any aspect of day to day life for a woman, even a white woman.
But in this case, her word certainly would trump anything in this horrific debacle.
I'll say it once more in just a case.
Okay.
The co-kill city herald reported that Mrs. Ben Dennis of Libby, a woman it said was above reproach, was dragged into some bushes and assaulted by Alonzo Tucker.
Laumann soon arrested Tucker who protested his innocence.
Once the news spread, it didn't take long for a mob of gun-wielding white miners to march into downtown Marshfield.
Their path was all too clear.
They were headed for the jail.
Some accounts say that the marshal tried to sneak Tucker out of the jail to safety, but that the terrified suspect, at least according to the quote on quote, official story, broke away and disappeared.
Based on accounts from that same trio of witnesses in 1974, it seems more likely that the jailer could not and was not likely very inclined to ensure Tucker's safety.
And so yeah, I'd probably run as well.
Yeah, but it doesn't sound like that's what actually happened because his jailer realized pretty quickly that he would be overwhelmed.
But there's a little bit more.
They noted that the man frequently referred to Alonzo Tucker using a popular derogatory slur of the day.
Just in passing conversation, referred to him in that way.
So they were inclined to believe that he probably wasn't going to put much at risk to protect the person he was given as charge.
Whatever one might be inclined to believe, the true course of events was that didn't stop the mob from barging into the city jail.
One detail was repeated throughout source material that one amongst the angry mob boldly proclaimed that they were going to administer southern justice to the alleged rapist.
On September 18th, 1902, they did.
The armed mob closed off the town and patrolled to ensure that escape would be all that impossible.
So Alonzo had hidden overnight, but he was found the following morning underneath a local storefront.
Though he ran after being discovered, he was grievously wounded after being shot in the thigh.
Cheese.
Reportedly having hit a major artery.
According to one doctor at the time, the wound would have proved fatal in roughly 10 minutes, making his attempt to escape all that much more remarkable.
He begged local bystanders for help, but his cries fell on deaf ears.
And there are a couple of different statements about what specifically his cries were and it was variations of Lord half mercy.
Even when the dust settled, the jailer refused to identify anyone within the mob, though he had abandoned his charge mortally wounded to request the coroner's services.
So I don't know what does that tell you?
Wow.
So he just left him still alive and was like, oh, well, he's dead.
But I'm going to get someone to deal with that.
Man, those thinking about the people on the street who he's asking for help, like what, honestly, what are they going to do against an angry mob as well?
Well, and he's already, you know, he's begging people inside the store that he had been hiding underneath and he'd run inside.
There was unfortunately very little that anybody could have done at this point if they had even been inclined to and none of the eyewitnesses who were children at the time indicated that anyone would have helped him.
And this next part is pretty horrific. They hung Alonzo Tucker already dead from multiple gunshot wounds from a bridge in Marshfield.
Now, Kuzbe, he died before they could make it to the bridge, but they strung him up anyway.
As someone put a rope around Tucker's neck, hundreds were gathered.
They were determined to carry out the lynching at the very spot where the alleged crime had taken place.
And though he died before they made it, they hung him from the bridge anyway as a public spectacle.
His body hung for hours in broad daylight on the old Marshfield bridge. Some people said days.
The ensuing investigation, if you can call it that, found that he died and this is a quote, from a wound inflicted by parties unknown and that no crime had been committed.
It wouldn't be until well over a hundred years later that the crime would be acknowledged in a more meaningful way.
Not only was an historical monument erected, but soil from the spots where Tucker was grabbed, shot and lynched, was poured into two glass jars.
As part of a project to commemorate America's lynchings, they are now displayed in both the Kuz history museum and the National Museum for Peace and Justice in Alabama.
It may have been that a crowd of two to three hundred gathered to watch as the gruesome crime took place.
But all these years later, there were easily double as many present to mourn, as well as commemorate a Lonzo Tucker's life.
Marsha Hart, the executive director of the Kuz history museum, said of the project.
To me, the importance of this day is to recognize a past historical event in the context of the times.
One that is shocking to imagine that it occurred in our community, and one that is part of a greater story about the unjust treatment of the Indian tribes and minority pioneers in our state.
I have a few statistics that are from actually a TED talk that I saw in person.
That's cool. And it was one of the individuals who helped to put the monument and the ceremony together.
Oh, wow. Between 1910 and 1950, only 22% of the South's overall population were African-Americans.
But they accounted for over 75% of all executions in the region.
Two thirds of all executions in the United States were of African-Americans in the 1930s and in so-called modern times.
When African-Americans make up roughly 13% of the population, 41% of those residing on death row are African-Americans.
I have all of those written down from when I saw his TED talk, but I watched it again.
There's a lot of really ugly aspects to our nation's history.
And I think particularly those of us in the Pacific Northwest, certainly would like to think that we are part of a more progressive community and generation.
But there are some things about this region, our state, specifically, historically that are really significant and that point to regardless of, you know, sort of the ideals that we have today.
There's pretty dark and horrific things about how this part of the country and our state in particular was founded.
I literally don't even know what to say.
I don't know. Nothing I say is like, not like it's not going to matter. I can't think of a word.
It doesn't feel like it's enough. Nothing really captures it.
I feel like I'm in a classroom, not that we really learned about what we kind of did go in death on this kind of thing in the classroom.
And I just feel like I'm back there learning for the first time what the fuck happened in this country.
I think in some ways, as I was researching, there are aspects of this that I think we were taught.
And then I think there are probably other areas of the country that receive,
and even more whitewashed version of these historical lessons.
But there's still quite a bit that unless you continue on and do graduate level studies or your own independent research,
these are not things necessarily that you will have learned about, not in a public school setting.
And it was like maybe one famous story in the South that we learned about.
I don't remember hearing a ton of numbers or stats or where this happened, other places, definitely not where I was living.
Right. Well, and that was sort of my point with this.
And it's not because I think we have to vilify our community as it exists today.
But I think for some of us that have grown up on the other side of the country, say from where the origins of a lot of the slave trade really where that hub
that we think of, you know, where that originates, our education, I think, focuses on a lot of othering.
And I think you nailed it because you do hear about, you know, maybe one, if you're lucky, a handful of cases that have occurred elsewhere in the country.
But there is sort of this, even if it's never outright spoken, there is sort of a perception or, you know, this reflection that, right, but not here.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think as much as I don't, you know, I hope it's not representative of our state, our communities, of the ideals of anyone residing therein.
It's upsetting to learn that, you know, a lot of what we've built upon is very much not just as racist or just as harmful as murderous as, you know, whatever you want to say as, you know, some of the Southern states.
In a way, almost worse because we just, the exclusionary laws are just, and I've known about them in a more general sense for quite a few years.
But my God, I mean, it's just so much worse than, than we were ever taught.
It feels a little bit like, even if you feel that you have done your best to be, you know, have an awareness and, you know, be open to learning and be open to the perspectives of, you know, people who have a different lived experience than you.
There's a little bit of a sense of betrayal because there's nothing that sets us apart or as being superior.
I mean, not at all.
No, I think the historical record shows that, you know, some pretty awful things happened here too.
And they got rid of the law and what you said, 2002. And we graduated in 2007.
So like right around the time it got abolished or whatever was like when we would have been learning about it or like maybe a couple of years later.
Oh my God.
I mean, take this for perspective.
We had already experienced 9/11.
Yeah.
That's how recently, that's how recently that some of those things were changed.
Yeah.
Some of that language and codification.
That was the past. That was, that wasn't here in today's world.
This doesn't happen anymore.
Yeah.
And maybe you can make the argument that, okay, well, sure, you know, a lot of places have these extremely antiquated laws on the books that aren't really enforced anymore or, you know, obscure regulations that just don't really sync up with modern society.
And so what does it matter?
Like it's illegal to walk into bubble gum or some shit. Like there's random stuff like that.
This is not that.
One of these things is not like the other.
Yeah.
It's not like, like one of them is light and kind of silly like, okay, like that's illegal.
Yeah.
But the other one is like get it out of here.
Yeah.
But we kept that on the books.
They had to fight for it to be removed, which insinuates that there is perhaps a segment of the population that thinks we might still want to be able to use this.
Yeah.
And I mean, I don't, I definitely don't doubt that even now.
Right.
So just casually in the last, you know, two decades, that's finally been changed.
And that's, I mean, very comfortably, very firmly in our lifetimes.
I feel like that needs to be learned as part of history to like the present history, you know, that kind of silly.
No, I mean, it really, it really is remarkable how many things it has so much more impact in years after, you know, just it doesn't just go away.
Right.
I mean, that's the problem with systemic racism.
It doesn't just go away.
We had one of the largest clan populations in the nation at one point.
I'm given to understand.
I don't know if that's backed up by a lot of data or if that's largely anecdotal, but there are certainly members of the Portland police bureau and other government officials that have been photographed from
the last hundred years in their clans wear.
It's just so icky and gross.
I don't know how you can, I just don't know how you can look at another person like a human, like a living thing, like even a bug and want to squash it, you know.
I don't understand.
Yeah.
I just, listen, if you're a spider, I feel like that's a whole different ball of worms as it were.
But let's your man, then I'll take you outside.
Yeah.
Listen, we had a spider the other day that was hanging in the walkway, no less.
His web was like, oh my, and Chris goes, that's a really big one.
He was like, should I just knock it down and maybe it'll go like into the bark dust and I was like, you need to put him on a plane.
Send this to Australia.
It looks like that's where he's from.
Aw, he was enormous.
And he was one of those ones that has like the big, like, it's got like a big butt, but his legs are really long.
No, no, no, no.
I held a really big dead spider the other day.
Because my friends has been brought it up from the basement and he's like, look at this and it was huge, but it was dead.
I mean, it was squash.
It was dry.
That's not better.
And he was like, do you want to hold it?
And I was like, no, but I was like, no.
And then I was like, well, actually, yeah, let me just, it's just a dead spider body.
You couldn't even feel it in your hand.
It was just there.
No.
And I went out and I returned him to the earth.
And I said, thank you for doing your spider duties.
You've done a great job living in the basement for who knows how long catching other bugs.
And I'm returning you to the earth.
I hate it so much.
It checks two different boxes, one of which is that like I have an aversion to touching like dead stuff.
And then an aversion to spite like I can't, I can't.
It is trying to hover in this chair.
I can't touch the floor.
It's lava covered in spiders.
Okay.
You can't touch the spider bodies.
Oh my god.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I felt like we needed like just a little palette cleanser because that was hard.
Yeah, we did.
Are you done?
Is it over?
That's over.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
And I know most of you know too the little like thing I do is just like because I don't understand.
It's things.
It doesn't make sense in my brain and all I can let out is a.
It's kind of like when the fan turns on on like your laptop.
She's processing like as fast and as hard as she can.
But that's her fan.
She can't quite get there.
It will never make sense.
And that's okay.
Yeah.
No, I mean, I think I'm okay with that.
That's as it should be.
Who?
Should we.
Tera?
Let's do some tarot.
Tarot.
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In the heart of the desert where dreams are made and fortunes are lost lies a city that
wears many faces.
But beneath the neon lights in dazzling facade of Las Vegas there exists a world shrouded
in shadows, a world of untold secrets, sins and survival.
Welcome to Sins of Survivors, a Las Vegas True Crime Podcast.
I'm your host Sean.
And I'm your co-host, John.
Join us each week as we delve into the underbelly of this vibrant city, exploring its most unsettling
true crime stories where the stakes are high and the truth is often darker than fiction.
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You guys were bad and don't worry we did get more wine.
Well of course.
Tearing it up.
Okay.
Should I lay these out and let you kind of tell my pointer finger where to stop?
I'll just control your hands from where I'm at with my mind.
Okay.
Cool.
They'll go where they need to go.
Interesting.
I kept seeing this one popping up in the bottom of the deck.
It is the Ten of Cups.
It's in reverse.
Ten of Cups is the family one with the rainbow, right?
It is.
Yeah.
Keywords are comfort, happiness, domestic bliss, love and harmony.
It's one of the cards that we've talked about several times before and in our interpretation
book it says you could think of this as the happy ever after card which just feels odd.
So I'm waiting for there to be something.
The reverse ten may point to disharmony or disappointments in your home life.
Okay.
Well perhaps there we are.
As soon as you said it was reverse ten of Cups so I was like I know exactly where this
is going.
Damn it.
Wow.
Things haven't turned out the way you expected.
Sometimes it suggests a family that puts too much emphasis on stuff and not enough on
love.
In some cases this card may represent the loss of a home or children leaving home.
My guess is that if his wife was living in the area and they were rumored to have possibly
had two children.
Oh, interesting.
There's two kids on the card too.
Yeah.
Isn't there?
There.
Yes.
I would venture a guess to say that probably shortly after this occurred they I'm sure they
would have left town.
I hope they got out and went somewhere where they were accepted.
Yeah.
The family from what I understand did not live in Marshfield or Cusbe as it's known now
proper.
They lived in nearby Libby.
So maybe that's how they were able to hopefully escape.
In a reading about money the 10 reversed can mean having to scale down your expenditures
and lifestyle.
Sometimes it shows declining property values or squabbles over an inheritance.
Scaling down your lifestyle just like I just heard calm the fuck down.
Yeah.
You need to calm down.
You need to be into fucking loud and knowing carrots.
Really?
If the reading is about your job this card says you're not as secure as you'd like to be.
Problems within a company may threaten your position or a company may grow too fast
or overextend itself requiring you to work extra hard.
I mean, I suppose I could point to his small business.
He did seem to work really hard.
He did.
All those jobs.
Yeah.
In a reading about love a partner may not share your values or may have different ideas
about family life.
Maybe you don't get along with the in-laws or kids from a former relationship cause problems.
Or a mistress.
Yeah.
I would say that certainly could lead to problems.
I'm like, I don't see where love went wrong in this story.
What do you mean?
Yeah.
I mean, it's certainly not any sort of a justification for how things have played out
in this situation, but my God.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm just certain there's no way he would have predicted that.
You know, what most people arguably would say is, you know, maybe not the most honorable
choice would have turned out quite so deadly, so horrifically.
And it's who knows what happened to, like if it was even true that they were having
an affair.
It's pretty well or it's pretty well documented.
Or like why?
No, it could be anything or he could just could have done something wrong and he didn't deserve
to die either way.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, it's so it's so hard to say like what occurs between two people, you know, when they,
at least believe to be, you know, in their own private space, it's, yeah, I mean, it would be
impossible to say, but it just makes me think of like all the women who have affairs with
men and power, like what are you going to do?
Like who was more powerful in this situation?
It wasn't him.
I mean, that's true.
Yeah.
I mean, it's certainly, it's worth considering, you know, whether whatever the dealings were
in this relationship, presumed relationship, he certainly wasn't, you know, in a position
of power.
Also, this is like one of the rare cards that is like basically completely opposite in reverse
because that doesn't always happen.
That's very true.
A lot of cards are like, I mean, just like a such a minuscule difference between the upright
and the reverse.
Yeah.
Look at you.
She's just such a, she's such an astute little tarot witchy bitchy.
Yeah, and it just, it's, there's so much happiness on that card and just like a home and family.
And then it just like, it's just like flipped and all on a test.
I mean, if you think about it, that's really like very representative of, of what's happened
here because to everyone, yeah, really, I mean, not, not all the white people, but you know
what I mean.
Right.
Yeah.
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They're sort of a bummer.
I don't mind them, but some people do.
Also, we hope I'm in my room alone.
I'm reportedly allegedly alone, but I guess I have a couple of fur balls, but you get the
idea.
True.
Yeah.
Goose.
Boo.
Ah.
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We post a lot.
We post pictures of shit we're doing.
We post videos of us unboxing fun things.
Yeah, which has actually become like kind of a regular phenomenon.
Yeah.
So, no more gifts.
Periodically, we receive things, okay, whether it's advanced copies of books or presents
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We'll tell everyone and anyone that you come into contact with about us or leave us a
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However, if they are a dick, you don't have to feel obligated to tell them, I guess.
Yeah.
And you know, me and Caitlyn really tell everyone about us.
So I feel like you all should be supporting us in that.
So we're not alone just talking to people about us.
Yeah.
And I'm pretty narcissistic to be us talking about us to other people, but if you guys do
it, then it kind of seems more legit.
Yeah.
Totally.
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Have a creepy ass day.
The creepiest.
Did I just put chapstick on twice?
Maybe.
I mean, better twice than not at all.
Sometimes if I leave it in my hand, I can't remember if I actually put it on or not.
So I do it again.
You're so cute.
Thanks.
You're so cute and funny and smart.
So are you.
And you're just a little witchy as strong power.
I don't pay one.
Unless you use your powers for evil.