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The focus should be on, what can you do in the moment while you have this time to make an impact on your constituency, your state and your country.

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We're only in these positions for a finite amount of time.

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This is Real State, a podcast from CSG South.

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Join us as we talk with policymakers and public leaders shaping state-level decisions across the South

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and explore how ideas move from policy to real impact.

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Hello and welcome to Real State. I'm your host, Lindsey Gray.

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Across the South, state leaders are navigating increasingly complex questions

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about how to support children, families and vulnerable populations

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while also maintaining responsible, sustainable budgets.

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Our guest today, Representative Daniel Pae, works at the intersection of state budgeting and human services policy.

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He has been serving in the Oklahoma House of Representatives since 2018

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and currently serves as chair of the House Appropriations and Budget Human Services Subcommittee

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and as vice chair of the House Children, Youth and Family Services Committee.

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He also currently serves as vice chair of CSG South's Fiscal Affairs and Government Operations Policy Committee.

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Representative Pae has led and supported legislation involving public health, behavioral health, family services, health care access, and state government operations,

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giving him a unique perspective on how states balance fiscal priorities with community needs.

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As you can see, he's a very busy man, so Representative Pae, thank you for carving out the time to be with us today.

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Absolutely, Lindsey, my pleasure and thanks for your opportunity.

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Before we discuss specific policy initiatives, I'd like to begin with your path into public service.

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You've served in Oklahoma for several terms now. Looking back, what first motivated you to pursue public service

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and how has your perspective on policy making evolved during your time in office?

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Well, it's hard to believe it has been since 2018 that I've been serving in office.

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So it's been quite the journey, as you can imagine.

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And I was elected at the age of 23, so I spent most of my 20s and public services incredible

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and to also represent my hometown in the community that I grew up in.

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I was born raised in with a lot in Lawton. It's very humbling.

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I really had no desire to get into politics growing up.

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I wanted to study for medical school, and that was a plan I went to university,

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local home, for the first semester.

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But the more I contemplated that path, it just did not seem like the right calling for me.

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So I dabbed with the student government and really the idea of problem solving and trying to do deep dives

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and any given topic and follow my career, I did that really appeal to me.

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So one thing led to another, I got to be the student body president on campus,

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got to intern from my state representative, and then my member of Congress throughout college.

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I moved back to Lawton after graduating, worked in city government,

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very much the Parks and Rec model, if you will, and trying to get back to local level.

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And then this seat became open in 2018, and I think in life you just got it.

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You should have shot it, if you will, and take that leap of faith.

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And that's why I did, and knocked on thousands and thousands of doors,

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all throughout the course of 2017 and 2018, and prevailed by 42 votes.

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So it was a very, very tight margin, and here we are eight years later.

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So I'm incredibly proud of the work that I've done, and very thankful for this opportunity.

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And we'll see what life takes me after I leave office.

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In Oklahoma, we are unique in that we only have 12 years of most to serve.

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So I've done eight, so I am nearing that retirement phase here very shortly.

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So I'll have to call to play what the next steps are. But in the meantime, I'm still enjoying my work in the house.

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Well, we're happy that you followed your calling and you're serving Oklahoma so well.

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So as your responsibilities have expanded over that eight years into leadership roles,

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involving both appropriations and human services, what lessons have shaped the way you approach policy decisions today?

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Well, I think good policy is good policy regardless if it comes from either side of the aisle.

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So I was trying to find that common ground.

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And I finished reading a former Senator Lamar Alexander's autobiography.

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And he talked about his work in the US Senate, his time as governor of Tennessee,

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and how he tried to find that common ground throughout his decades of public service.

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So that's why I always try to strive for is what exactly is a problem we're trying to address.

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And what is some really sensible solutions that we can bring to the table.

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And from there, the coalition building, the problem solving can occur.

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So that's how I've always operated even during my days at a lot in high and student council.

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I just think the fundamentals are the same, build those relationships, find those solutions,

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and then acknowledge that it will take time, it will take effort.

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There's no such thing as a perfect idea of solution, but at least we can make some progress and move the ball forward.

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Well, those leadership roles have placed you at the center of conversations many states are having right now about fiscal sustainability and service delivery.

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So as chair of human services appropriations and budget subcommittee,

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how do you approach balancing fiscal discipline with the growing demand for services across areas like child welfare, behavioral health, health care access, family support?

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Absolutely. It is definitely a challenging position to be in, and I'm thankful for speaking to Hilbert for having the trust and confidence in me to have this role in leadership.

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And so I do believe when it comes to the question of the role of government, we should invest in quality, live initiatives.

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We should invest in these types of social services that can empower individuals and families to get on a better path.

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And so I've learned a lot the past two years because of the subcommittees' purview, it is rather wide-ranging.

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So getting to meet with a lot of the kids and the families and the case workers who are on the ground every single day is very, very enlightening.

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And no doubt that we have some incredible people in Oklahoma, one of its DHS or OJA or the other agencies in this subcommittees jurisdiction.

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It's been rewarding getting to learn from them.

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Obviously there are some federal changes that are taking place and we're certainly in the midst of implementing those changes, whether it's staff and HL1 and trying to reduce our payment error rate, whatever it's on the issue of child care, with some of those federal funds transitioning away from the states.

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We've tried to tackle all those different issues. I do appreciate DHS did tap Michael Williams, he's from Connecticut.

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So he brings the national experience into the child welfare space. I think he's an excellent job of green to get a stakeholders and trying to figure out what can be done in Oklahoma based on his previous experience.

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So it's a great way to get people like him. So there's no doubt that when it comes to human services and child welfare and other issues is a lot going on.

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And so it definitely takes a team effort. That's what we're trying to do in Oklahoma.

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And we'll definitely dive into the federal piece and just a little bit too, but this kind of next question is what are some of the most significant funding pressures Oklahoma policymakers are facing today.

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And when it comes to human services programs, I imagine that federal conversation is part of those pressures.

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Absolutely. And I would also submit when it comes to properly compensating our state employees. That's a conversation we had. Not just in human services, but in state government as a whole.

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We have a tremendous number of great men and women who are dedicating their lives to public service.

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The conversation has not followed along with the cost of living and with inflation. And so I know there's been a lot of turnover, a lot of burnout.

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And so while we're not able to get a substantial pay increase, so we did pass longevity pay. So at the longer you've been working in government, you will be acknowledged and recognized for years of service.

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I'm glad we got that across the finish line, but there's no doubt that we do have to look into that more and more as well as keeping in mind the different federal changes going on.

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Yeah. I know several of our states have been grappling with the issue of pay among teachers and first responders and government workers.

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It's Oklahoma is not alone and trying to tackle that issue. Increasingly, legislatures are focused not only on funding programs, but also on measuring outcomes. So how do you evaluate whether taxpayer investments in human services are improving outcomes in Oklahoma?

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I would look to the measurements and indicators from well over a decade ago, we were placed on what's called the pinnacle plan. And so DHS had to make certain adjustments and changes, for example, to try to help kids in the foster care system, families were trying to go through the adoption system.

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And all the indicators and measurements that I've seen were positive and it was enough for us to transition away from the pinnacle plan and to move forward in a more productive manner.

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So the state of Oklahoma for well over a decade was a part of that initiative. And because of the leadership throughout the decade and the changes that we made, one of much, much better path.

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So I would say based on those indicators, we're better off than we were a decade ago.

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And then I mean, we all want that immediate kind of reward from our work that we're doing. So how do you balance the desire for that immediate result with the reality that some human services investments may take years to demonstrate their full impact?

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That's the challenge in policy making is human nature for us to want instantaneous change immediately and as much as possible. That's just not the way that the founders intended for our government to be functioning.

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So it is very slow moving, it is very deliberative, but that was the intent of our founders when they, you know, as we celebrate in America 250, that was what they had in mind.

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So I understand folks were feeling that way, but now having been in this position for the past eight years, it does require a lot of patience and a lot of coalition building.

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But I think I would rather us take the time to draft thoughtful policy than try to rush something and have unintended consequences. So I, there are certain bills and initiatives that are taking me two, three, four years to finally get done.

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But the end result has been well worth it. And in the end, it's great policy to be local home.

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So let's dive into some of those policies that you've been able to put forward and, and, and sponsor. So last year Oklahoma enacted Dylan's law to increase awareness around epilepsy and sudden unexpected death and epilepsy.

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This session, you also sponsored HB 42 94, which would expand insurance protections and treatment access for Oklahoma and living with epilepsy. So how do you see efforts fitting together and what does this issue reveal about the broader role states can play an improving access to care for individuals managing chronic health conditions.

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And also just love to hear kind of what got you motivated and, and to, to put this bill forward and obviously it became law.

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Well, it was quite the journey when it comes to Dylan's law. And so the past several years, the, the wooden family has been advocating for this pause the issue.

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We got connected a couple years ago and I got to meet Hannah Wooden and her dad, Reggie Wooden and how Dylan, that's Hannah's brother, Reggie's son passed away from sudden death and epilepsy and how does not, at the time, there was not a lot of data.

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There was not a lot of overall systems in place for us to tackle this issue. And so that's what became Dylan's law. And while I found out what that was that there are other states that had done different types of initiatives, whether that's looking at the death certificate and how suit up is reported on it, whether that's on the driver's license for person with epilepsy having a special designation.

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These types of provisions have been separately considered. I thought we should at least try to attempt to bring everything together in a comprehensive package and that became Dylan's law.

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There was one provision on insurance coverage that we couldn't quite get consensus. So we decided to wait until this year to advance that policy.

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So we did pass Dylan's law last year, nonetheless that still became the most comprehensive law on epilepsy in the entire country. And so in Oklahoma we have 41,000 people who lived with epilepsy.

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And personally I heard from a lot of friends and constituents who I had no idea had epilepsy but because of the bill, because of the conversation we're having, they felt comfortable sharing those stories with me and with others.

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So no matter what, I felt that was stepping the right direction. If we can de-stigmatize these types of issues as leaders in government, I think not doing all jobs.

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So we came back this year and we were able to find that consensus on the insurance coverage provision. We were able to get through the House and the Senate.

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Unfortunately the governor did veto the bill in the end and we ran out of time to override the veto. So we're going to try again next year.

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And we have a new governor no matter what after the general election. So I'm hopeful that we can get that one across the finish line in 2027.

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Yeah, great. That's part of that. You've got to sometimes it takes years to get things pushed through. So that's an example of that.

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You also sponsored HP 2012 in 2025. That's a mouthful, which extended Oklahoma's registered harm reduction programs, including needle exchange and rapid STI testing services.

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These programs have generated discussions in many states about both public health outcomes and long term costs.

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So what shaped your approach to this issue and what outcomes do you believe are most important when evaluating success?

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So when it comes to harm reduction, that idea came from a constituent. And so he'd seen other states look into the possibility of passing a legal framework to authorize harm reduction.

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And so I was initially skeptical to be honest because on its face, what you're doing is that you're distributing needles at the same time of exchanging dirty needles.

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So there is that initial skepticism. The many colleagues also experienced when I first told them about the policy.

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But then why is thought about the impact on law enforcement and how this is a practical issue that they deal with when they're patrolling the streets.

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And if they get injured by picking up one of these needles, that's a long term consequence that's not good for them for anyone in that profession.

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So there's that component and there's also the mental health component as well where we know, especially since COVID, a lot of people are struggling with addiction.

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And the training to other substances is not good for them. Not to mention the data on spread of infectious disease like HIV and hepatitis C, especially in Oklahoma, which is totally out of control.

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This is a possible remedy that we discovered five years ago. And at the time, there was not enough support for a permanent program.

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So we essentially created a pilot program set to transition out this past year.

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And so that was what the original bill did in 2021. And that was a bipartisan coalition.

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Very much appreciate its support from public safety and medical advocacy who was talking about the issue.

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But in the end, what drew me to the policy was that this is a way to help to save lives in Oklahoma.

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And in fact, other conservative republicans say it's having a look into it because it truly is, in my view, a pro-life measure.

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And it is nuanced. I will acknowledge that part. And I think you have to acknowledge reality where if someone is struggling and they're on the streets, the easy response would be just to tell them to suck it up and to stop being an addict and get their life straight.

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But we know that life's more complicated than that, especially for a lot of these individuals. So with this home reduction idea, you're acknowledging where they're at, you're acknowledging the reality of the situation.

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And by, again, destigmatizing this issue, you can have better results in the end. You've got people not addicted in the long run, not using needles in the long run.

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And that's what the data suggested in other states and what's happening in Oklahoma as well. So what the policy is at right now is we passed the extension in the House to continue to program in illegal framework.

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It did not advance in the Senate. So my interpretation is that these nonprofits who are offering these types of services to programs could continue, but now we're going to be in a legal gray area that how we had the extension in place.

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They've been more clarity. So I'm not sure what the game plan is moving forward. But I do know that the data is very compelling.

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What's been taking place in Oklahoma where this has led to lives being saved. People entering treatment and ultimately ending up in recovery.

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Then a lot of positive results will be what we've done. So hopefully that will be enough support to find another way to make sure these nonprofits continue those services programs.

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You got four more years to get it done. No pressure, no pressure.

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Well, you mentioned mental health. So mental health, mental health continues to be a growing challenge across states, particularly as demand for services increases.

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How do you view Oklahoma's role in strengthening behavioral health infrastructure and improving access to care?

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So those last three words, Lindsay, are the most important part of this conversation, especially keeping in mind that outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa, much of Oklahoma is in fact rural.

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And many of these communities have challenging access to care.

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So having these behavioral health centers, having these opportunities for people to seek that treatment in the center of care, that's what's critical here.

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So certainly funding is part of that equation. I think making sure they get good people to enter the mental health profession is what we've done tremendous work when it comes to credentialing and training, once you're in college and then preparing for this profession.

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So I think we've done a lot of good work there. Now in Oklahoma, we have had some challenges with our department of mental health.

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There will be new leadership, per the new governor coming up in 2027. So I'm hopeful that whoever is appointed to that position as commissioner will keep all of this in mind.

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And we'll talk to professionals on the ground who have been struggling over the past two, three years with all the challenges that the agency has been facing.

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And we did have a debate in law and last week for the major candidates for governor.

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They each talked about this issue. So I'm hopeful that no matter who wins the general election, they will focus on mental health and left side.

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So we do have the mental health caucus. That will still continue and help with those efforts as well.

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Yeah. One thing I don't know if you realized you said as we were talking about policies, as you said, that one came from a constituent or that idea came from a family that had been working through this issue a lot.

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So it's very apparent that it is just in your DNA to listen to your constituents and to try to put forward policies that you know are good for Oklahoma, but also for your district, your constituents, things that they really care about.

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And that you dive in and you learn about them and turn those into your efforts at the Capitol. So that's really awesome to just hear and just naturally you just got to flow through that.

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So I don't even know if you heard that you do that, but it's awesome to see that baked into your DNA for sure.

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So you know many of the issues you've talked about affect children and families, which is another major area of your legislative work. So as vice chair of the Children Youth and Family Services Committee, what do you believe are the most important investment states can make today to improve long term outcomes for children and families loaded question.

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And that's the, you know, the question that we're all trying to address as a country. So certainly when it comes to our appropriation process, we have made those investments in those relevant agencies to get them the tools and resources to help kids and families all throughout Oklahoma.

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I would also submit that a lot of these policies are interconnected. So for addressing education, if we're addressing mental health, if we're addressing access to basic resources, this can help lead to a compounding effect helps everyone in the long run.

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And I think initiatives like talking about pay family leave or free school meals throughout the day, things like that where these are quality of life ideas that invest in families.

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And the ROI in the long run is very compelling. So I think we should do more that. And I do want to acknowledge efforts to have been taking place for a foster care system where there was a law passed assigned into effect for this year for any person that's aging out of foster care system to have until the age of 21 now to continue receiving the services so that we don't have a substantial gap.

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After they turn 18 and also provide them a double bag and having that sense of dignity given to them as well for basic resources. So we have made progress in Oklahoma and why reference early with the pinnacle plan that speaks to those efforts and progress that has been made.

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Obviously, it's still more work to do. And I think that's where organizations like CSG come into play where we can learn from other states and not try to reinvent the wheel. Something's working. If it's good policy, we could try to collaborate and bring those good ideas to Oklahoma and vice versa, looking at other states and what they're doing.

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Are there specific Oklahoma initiatives or forms underway that you're particularly encouraged by right now? I know you mentioned a couple just a moment ago, but is there anything else you're kind of watching new and evative or just reforms that particularly gets you excited.

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Yeah, I think the reforms that I mentioned here and then also trying to connect a lot of these students with those internships and mentorship opportunities to be successful and to learn from other professionals.

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I think if we have more of this as an investment in building those relationships where there's a young leader who doesn't know what he or she wants to do, but they can be connected with the right people and learn from them. I think that's going to help the state tremendously.

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So I will in fact be volunteering for youth in Chicago, Oklahoma here, later this month and teaching their must-eat government. So I think each of us has that opportunity and responsibility to make sure we're meant to in the next generation.

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I love that. Thank you. You give so much back to Oklahoma and your community.

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So assuming, out and kind of back to that federal lens that we were talking about earlier states often administer programs that rely on significant federal funding, including Medicaid, SNAP, behavior of health initiatives, as you mentioned earlier.

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So how are Oklahoma policymakers preparing for uncertainty surrounding future federal funding and program requirements coming from the federal government?

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Well, HL1 certainly had a substantial impact on state governments across the country and so within our committees purview, SNAP has been the main focus in priorities.

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So our payment array has been hovering around 10.87 percent the past couple of years.

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The most recent data based on changes that the HS made to the training curriculum and just getting the word out to clients on how to proceed with SNAP payments.

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That array has now been reduced substantially to around 6.1 percent give or take. So it is right near that critical threshold of below 6 percent based on the new federal law.

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And for folks who don't realize the ramifications, if we do not reduce it to below 6 percent in Oklahoma at least that that is up to 300 million more dollars.

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We will have to supplement in our state's budget to cover the cost for SNAP.

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And so we're making tremendous progress. I think we're well on the way to complying with HL1.

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Now when it comes to Medicaid that's more complicated and I think there are conversations with our hospitals on what the direct impact is going to be.

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We talked about acts to care earlier and that is very concerned for me is that with the federal funding changes that some of these hospitals will be negatively impacted.

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As an outcome we do none of us want to see but we're preparing for that possibility just given the financial realities of the situation.

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So I know the Trump administration just released the Medicaid work requirement guidelines and is still implementing other provisions of the law.

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Now we do have upwards of $223 million with the will health transformation fund that is going to help a lot of those hospitals and trying to brainstorm innovative policy ideas when it comes to healthcare.

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We have already since COVID invested in telehealth for example. So I think with SNAP working on that with Medicaid that is one day at a time approach and looking at the states will what they're trying to grapple with.

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So I think the law will not be fully implemented until essentially in the end of this decade. So it's still time.

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It's powerful that our friends at the federal level will make sure that they're available for any health that we need.

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Our main policy plenary at SLC this year will be around Medicaid. It's such an active discussion.

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What role do UC state legislatures play playing and maintaining flexibility and responsiveness with federal policy shifts.

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I mean you've basically answered it but.

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We had that conversation in the legislature this past year we did not find that consensus but the question we were trying to address is in our state constitution.

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We have Medicaid expansion that was passed by both the people in 2020 and I think we can all get behind the idea of people getting access to care and making sure that they're properly taken care of.

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We have to reconcile that with the fiscal reality where if the federal government if Congress decides to modify the match rate between the feds and states from Medicaid.

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We would have a very challenging situation on the hands because we would be required to fill in that financial gap.

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So we were trying to address that in the legislature.

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There was still a dispute with you in the House and the Senate. I would anticipate that is you can come back next session.

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And so whether we find that the compromise agreement that remains to be seen by I know that's something that we do have to tackle as a state.

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I think all of our states are tackling it right now so that is a complex issue and you are in the thick of it.

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So these are the moments that I don't envy your roles as legislators.

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Through your work with CSG South you can also compare experiences across multiple states with your leadership on our fiscal affairs and government operations policy committee.

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What policy trends are you seeing emerge across southern states that are consistent with that intersection of human services delivery and state budgeting?

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Well, I've got my cal certificate behind me as well.

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So I had a gosh that was seven years ago now.

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That was part of that program. So I got to meet other legislators to register out the South and figure out what the challenges are.

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And I think that's a lot more to to Oklahoma and so as far as your question about the intersection and make sure that we are investing in human services.

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I think it's a it's not going conversation.

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And to be honest, there are many colleagues who will take some time to convince about the importance of these types of investments.

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So I think the foundation of questions to founding of this country is what is the proper government in each of our lives?

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And my viewpoint is that when it comes to these kids and families who are oftentimes struggling and not really knowing where to go, there is a role for government to play.

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I think there's also a role for partnership with our friends in the private sector.

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So you take a look at the issue of child care.

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There was legislation from a colleague in Tulsa, Representative Suzanne Triber.

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And she was proposing a trial share pilot program where you have a child care center, you have the local government, you have local businesses trying to fill those funding needs.

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That's an excellent example of a public private partnership that can and should be done.

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And so I hope we can have more of those types of brainstorming sessions and figure out how can we all work together for those outcomes where we're having families feel that the opportunities there for them.

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To be economically and socially successful and empowered.

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I think that is certainly worthy of our time in government.

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And so the home would certainly be a leader in it.

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Yeah, love that.

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Before we close, I'd like to switch gears with a few rapid fire questions.

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So buckle up, I hope you're ready.

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What's one policy issue you think deserves more attention nationally?

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What we're talking about when it comes to families struggling with food insecurity.

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And when I was at OU, we were part of the original team that established OU Food Pantry almost a decade ago now.

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And it's such a basic idea right as far as being able to know where next meal is coming from and not to be hungry.

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Whether it's like going to class or going to your job, but I think that's such a foundational policy issue that if we can make investments and get that right, I think all these other issues it would help tremendously.

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All interconnected.

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What's one thing people often must misunderstand about state budgeting?

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A lot of people are surprised that we are required to have a balanced budget.

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Obviously, in Congress, that's not the case.

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But a lot of folks are surprised that we are required to constitutionally have a balanced budget.

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So no matter what happens in session, that is always guaranteed in the end.

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It might, it's a little bumping, oftentimes that's part of the, the software-making process.

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But in the end, we have to have a balanced budget.

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That's right.

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What's the most valuable lesson you've learned during your time in public service?

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This will all come to an end at some point.

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And so trying to be worried about the next election, what your leadership position is going to be, the focus should be on what can you do in the moment while you have this time to make an impact on your constituency, your state and your country.

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We're only in these positions for a finite amount of time.

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And so that's why we have to use it wisely. And not be worried about the politics of any given matter, but do you even the end what is necessary to move forward?

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So good.

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What gives you optimism about the future of state government?

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I would say, this is making me feel old now, but a lot of the young rising leader, no longer a rising leader now.

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And so a lot of the folks in high school and college, I've had eight interns.

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And they've gone to the exact same program that I went through in college.

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And it's very, very encouraging to get to know them and hear their stories and what they are wanting to do in public service.

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So almost recent interns, she's actually going to be intending for Senator Langford this summer in D.C.

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And she got the exact same scholarship I did when I was a student.

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So that's what gives me hope is that you have these young rising leaders who are interested in public service, not understanding what's going on.

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And the current national environment, they still feel hopeful and you want to get back.

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I think that's what gives me hope.

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Okay. And our final question, which is also our real state signature question.

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What is the best piece of professional advice you've ever received?

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And how does it influence the way you approach public service today?

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So my high school English teacher told me in school that if you can have a little bit of patience and a sense of humor, anything is possible in life.

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And so I think that's very true in government where, as we talked about earlier, some of these initiatives, it takes years to get through.

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And obviously these are very divisive times and tense times for the country right now.

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But I always try to find those moments of levity with colleagues, especially in those stressful moments.

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And that keeps us all together moving forward.

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So I think having patience and a sense of humor, regardless of its public service or anything in the private sector, I think that's a key leadership lesson right there.

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Every time I see you, you're always happy.

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I can attest to that.

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So you live what you speak.

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So we'll representative pay. Thank you for joining us and for sharing your perspective on the important work happening in Oklahoma at the intersection of fiscal policy and human services.

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I deeply appreciate the leadership you've provided to our policy team and your continued engagement across the Southern region.

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Oklahoma, especially House District 62 is very lucky to have you representing them.

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Well, thank you, Lindsey. Appreciate you and your team and everything you've done and it's been wonderful going to work with you guys over all these years.

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Absolutely. And I look forward to seeing you very soon.

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And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Real State.

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For more conversations with state leaders from across the South, visit CHGSouth.org.

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And I look forward to seeing you all at the Southern Legislative Conference this July.

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I'm Lindsey Gray. Let's keep it real.

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Thank you for joining us today on Real State, where we keep it real about what really matters.

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