I think if your kids are eight and you're like, "Oh, they're the liars," and then you
call them that for the rest of their lives, that's a poor parenting move.
And you know what?
Guess what happened to liars?
And they burned a house down.
I missed it when I read the book.
I missed it in the TV show, and I missed it the second time I read the book.
You start a fire, stand nearby with your yes, can, soak your own clothes.
The relationship between the liars was inspired by Lockhart's quote, "fantasy" of having
close friends grow.
Oh no!
It's not good!
Can I say something positive?
No!
Shut up!
Hello everyone and welcome back to Mean Book Club.
This week we read We Were Liars by E. Lockhart.
Mysterious!
What does the E mean?
What does the title mean?
As always we are your hosts.
I'm Sarah Burton.
Hey I'm Clara Morris.
Hello, I'm Johnna Scravest.
I am Sabrina B. Jordan.
Well perfect intro to the perfect host.
And as always, being book club, we read New York Times bestsellers that maybe shouldn't
be, you recommend them, etc.
But we have a very, very special guest.
Johnna would you like to do the honor?
I would love to do this honor best known for his work as an improviser on the infamous
UCB New York Lloyd team never, never.
Our guest is the writer, director, actor and creative force behind Boya Raste, The Gift,
and this year, South by Southwest Hit, I don't understand you starring Nick Crowle and Amanda
Safrid from drama to dark comedy he does it all, and he's here to shake things up.
David Joseph Craig!
You're all liars, you're liars.
Oh my god, I'm flattered.
Not to be so young, guys.
I dyed my hair just for you guys.
Oh my god, it is a very nice youthful white blonde.
Thank you.
It's fun, it's summer.
It is.
Thank you very much.
I did it once or twice before that were just like one time things and now I'm going for it.
It looks great.
I love talking about hair on a podcast.
On a podcast, yeah.
As always.
Can we all just talk about what we look like right now?
How beautiful.
We all learn.
Oh, study, I think we all learn.
Double, I'm the most beautiful.
I don't want to use you, Sabrina, coming in.
I'm not gonna compliment you.
We were all complimenting each other.
I am happy about my hair today.
Your hair is cute.
Okay, so David, we're so excited to have you.
I mean, it's gonna be world friends.
This is gonna be so fun.
And besides, you have your like a legit writer.
Like you, you're gonna bring that perspective, you know, because also we were liars.
It's also a big hit TV show now.
I just found out.
Yeah.
Has anybody watched me too?
I guess, I guess, wait, wait, before I get into that.
Yeah, let me ask everyone.
What are we doing this year?
No, no, we had to find out why we're reading this book.
Why we read it?
So John and we talk about how we read it.
Why we read it this book?
Okay, so Alexis, do you recommend it?
Single day.
Yes, Alexis, single day, recommend it.
Hey y'all, sorry to come on so strong in the subject line.
Well, we didn't have that written down.
So I in a panic moments before we started to go back to the email.
The email, subject line was all caps.
The perfect book suggestion, a literal New York time best seller,
I swear on my life.
So David, we asked for recommendations constantly and we last season had a real rough season
because people would recommend things they'd be like, we think it's a best seller
and we'd be like, great, we won't double check.
You know, trust you until we're literally recording.
And we'd record and then we'd be like, oh my god, it's not.
So people know they know they have to say certain buzzwords to get their books on anymore.
And one of them is, I swear on my life.
Was it actually the author because that would be what I would assume?
Yes, oftentimes it's a New York Times best selling author and the book isn't.
And we've been screwed by that number of times.
National best seller tricks us as well.
Caldecott award winning.
Yes, that'll get us.
Alexis goes on, it would be such an honor to have a book I recommend it on the cast.
I've been such a huge fan of your podcast from the beginning,
even though I don't read along, you don't have to.
Nobody has to, that's the joy of it.
My friend recommended this book to me and I both hated it and could not put it down.
The ending was literally the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
And I had to take a 10 minute walk to play steam after processing how insane it was.
I felt bad, ranting to my friend about how stupid I thought it was.
Only to find out she gave it five stars on goodreads.
I hope we have that goodreads review.
Oh my gosh, yeah, we should have asked.
Maybe you will validate my hatred.
Most importantly, the book is short.
Okay, the rest of you know was flattering to us because about how specific it gets.
Mine's even shorter now because my dog ate it.
Oh, literally.
The dog knows, okay, I mean spoiler alert, but the dog knows what happens at the end,
trying to get rid of that.
Oh yeah, he was like, you can't read this part.
Okay, really bad you guys.
All right, all right, keep going.
Jay, or you don't, you're not going to read that.
That's it.
It does end with a link to it being a bestseller.
And I cannot wait to listen to this episode with a wink face, which I absolutely love.
I thought Sabrina would love it because it really manifests us doing it.
Yeah, hell yeah.
The wink face is backwards.
Yes.
I just got to say, but I'll accept it.
All right, real, real criticism of Alexis, thank you for the wrecked.
Prenticey then, semi colon.
But I think that's cool.
It means Alexis is different.
They're, you know, they're, they're on thinker.
They don't need to do a smiley any kind of way.
They do it how they want.
All right.
Well, how'd you guys read this book?
Did you get it from the library?
Do you have to buy it?
Do you do audio book?
What'd you do?
David.
I, I, I, I am a Zondet.
And then I worried because like I said, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I was worried I wouldn't get through the end of the book.
And so I had to Amazon it again.
But as the other Amazon was coming, I read the book.
And I realized I got all the way through it because there's like, there's literally like pages and pages of appendix on the book.
And that's actually what my dog ate.
So I, so, so, there's 50 pages.
Yeah, wait, what is it?
Yeah, maybe you don't know the answer because they've been chewed away, but what could they be appendix?
How does this book warrant an appendix?
I don't know.
There's acknowledgements.
Then there's bonus content.
Oh, some bonus.
So there's a note from E Lockhart.
What cadence found notes and poems from Gat?
I read them on one of the reads something less.
An original hand drawn map of Beachwood Island.
Okay.
Oh, I like a little.
This reminds me of like papers I've written where I'm like, and now here are photos I took of my writing process.
The original hand drawn, single player family tree.
And then a whole piece about how I wrote we were liars, which I would assume would be in her fever tree.
Yeah.
And then we were liars book club meeting.
Oh, shit.
Intr...
I will say the family tree and the map probably were added because they were so poorly described in the book.
Yeah, that's less of an appendix and more of a must have item.
I did just did audiobooks.
I listened to the audiobook, although I don't know if the reader was like the actress in the show.
The voice is very grating.
It's like, "Apa da na na, aapa, mama, drinks to mama."
Oh, I got the fucking mummy.
Yeah, mummy.
It was not a good, I also did audiobook.
And I really didn't like the reader, the reader.
She said, "Liberry?"
Oh, yeah.
You can't be a book reader.
So I did a different job.
Or learn to say it.
You simply can't.
You have to say the word that's the king of books.
You have to know how to say it.
Yeah.
I had a little journey with this book as I always do.
Requested from the library was like 1000th on the list.
It did.
I did use that.
That's upsetting.
I used the audible subscription.
I mean, why is it?
Use, use, use libraries.
That's a good thing though, right?
That is true.
Although I suspect it's all people my age watching the TV show.
But I also, so I listened to the book.
I then, I binge the whole show this weekend.
Oh, okay.
So I can watch it.
And then like so many more things happened in the TV show,
which like wasn't hard to believe because I felt so little had happened in the book.
Then I started to question myself.
I was like, maybe I didn't pay attention in the book at all.
So today I listened, I re-listen to three quarters of the book to confirm that in, in fact, lacked all the plot that I taught it back.
I just searched for an article that said, "Different sources between the book and the TV show."
Are you watching this?
You've just read that article.
I watched two episodes of it.
I've not, I didn't finish it.
Is it good?
I think it's better than the book.
But I only made two episodes, so I don't know.
There's a gummer in there, isn't there?
There's two.
Yes.
There's a gummer in there.
Oh, a gummer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Of the street gummers.
But yeah, okay.
So there we go.
I'm glad David, you can let us know how the, how's the texture of the cover since you have the book on hand.
That's another visual segment we occasionally insist on doing.
It's called, describe a book by its cover and take all the time you want, David.
It's called, "Judge a book by its cover."
Okay, well, we haven't done it in a while.
Sean.
But take your time.
Tell us what's the book feel?
What does it say to you?
Trash.
Okay.
It feels like trash.
Yeah.
Well, also because my dog, all right, he's knurled it up.
Honestly, I think he made it into an art project a little bit, which is quite nice because it adds some texture and some plot to the book.
Yeah.
And I mean, if you put that in a free, little free library, I might be intrigued.
Like, oh, so good that it was ripped up.
What's, what happened here?
What's the book story?
Gobbled right up.
But all right, guys, what is this?
Sorry.
I see a new segment on our outline that says, "Johnna's just the facts.
What is that?"
That is the summary of the book.
Okay.
Okay, sorry.
I was tired of doing my summaries to Sabrina sums it up in our outline.
Okay, okay.
So, I feel like Sarah was ready to kill you for your first time in a new segment.
For everyone is listening, it's still Sabrina sums it up, no matter who writes it.
I did it for years.
Okay, all right.
Did you do it tonight?
It's fine.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I'm ready.
I'm going to have SAG after.
No, I'm going to have WGA come after you for taking credit for other writer's work.
That's crazy.
Good luck.
Almost all the screen I've been in.
I'm going to cause it luck.
Works in.
Also, before we get into this, Johnna, I have to ask.
Yes.
I mean, we're going to talk about the spoiler because the spoiler is the book.
Do you touch on it in your summary?
It's touched.
A lot.
Okay, great.
I'm just going to throw out their spoiler alert.
I mean, but honestly, if you're listening to us, you're not going to read the book or you already read it.
And you want to hear us rant about it.
So, just keep it.
I don't feel bad if we accidentally waste four hours of your life because that's how long it takes to read the spoiler.
It's a part team or something like that.
I can tell you right now.
You are correct.
It's 2014.
Wow.
I guess we might spoil it so that people are going to watch it on TV.
But you'll be okay.
You'll be okay.
You'll be all right.
I guess, you know, you could skip ahead.
We usually put music around this.
So, skip ahead if you must.
Although, I wouldn't because it's really special.
Sarah recommended that I do this to the tune of Hillary Duff's 2003.
Hit, come clean.
And I did go ahead and write the summary.
So, is anyone familiar with come clean, familiar enough to...
This is audio podcast.
Yes.
Great.
So, I guess we want to then sing it.
You want David to sing it?
I'm not singing it.
You raise his hand so excitedly.
So excited.
I'm, you have to sing it.
You have to sing it.
Or Sabrina, I guess.
Great.
I really thought Sabrina would do this.
I don't know this song.
Okay.
No.
That was like, you know it.
But I don't want to sing it.
I have a horrible singing voice.
Let me wash away.
That's it.
You do not.
That's it.
You do not.
So, it seems like you do know it.
Okay.
I didn't expect to be the one to sing this.
But I'll do my best.
Did you listen to the song beforehand?
No.
Oh, fantastic.
That was great.
I remember.
This is going to go on playing it now.
Yes.
Me, but that's fine.
Okay.
Well, let's go back.
Back to the beginning.
David Claire notoriously does like music.
Okay.
That's fine.
Okay.
I don't think I'm going to be able to sing it.
She has a pretty high voice.
But I think I can...
Bring it down if you're active.
Yeah, for you.
A few.
Why don't you open like a...
Maybe just one octave?
Like that usually where.
I know.
Can you bring open it?
No, sing it deep.
Can you bring up a karaoke backing track?
This is a disaster for me.
Okay.
I'm just going to...
I think I'm just going to speak it.
And we'll put...
We'll have like put her audio under it.
That's how this is going to work.
That's...
It's going to be a great song.
No, the song...
The karaoke version of the song is going to play under it.
We are... no one is coming after us for this to pop right.
I guarantee you, Hillary does.
Lawyers are not gonna...
Don't sharky.
They...
Her teeth might be that sharky.
Okay.
Oh, maybe.
Whoa!
This is not...
So, those of sh*t teeth...
This isn't about Hillary!
Okay, I'm just going to read it.
And Blake, here is where you put the song underneath.
Let's go back.
Back to the beginning.
Back to the money, the son, the rich teens, all alive.
Yeah.
[Music]
I said, "That right there!"
I said, "What Rose - does he recommend?"
And the wine man said some and I said, "Oh no!"
And he was like, "Oh that one's good, too!"
And I took it.
The bottle is beautiful.
Obviously, the Hampton's a classic rich paradise major mecca for wealth.
So I think it pairs well with this book.
Also fun fact, it's made by John Bon Jovi and his son.
And I think that is fun.
-Josey.
-Wow.
It's, it's Jesse and John Bon Jovi as dedicated father and son through our partnership with
renowned wine maker Gerard Bartrand.
I imagine Gerard is pulling a lot of the wine weight.
I think he's probably doing a lot of the work on the wine head.
-I bet John Bon.
-He probably had the glass idea, right?
-I would think so.
He seems like a classy guy.
-Good price, too.
-I don't know.
-It's a great price.
-I like the Hampton water as a branding.
-It feels, I love it.
It's funny.
-I love it.
It feels decadent.
-I guess it feels like it exudes by...
-It exudes by...
-So like liquid death for you?
-I was like, "Oh, they can't, they can drink tap water there, huh?"
-Ritchie's, that was my first reaction.
Then it's like, "Oh, it's supposed to be a little joke.
Hampton water is just wine.
It's a little joke."
-Yeah.
-Now I'm pissed, I'm pissed.
-What do you think came out first?
Ranch water or Hampton water?
Either way, I love ripping it off.
-I don't know what Ranch water is.
-It's hard-seltzer targeted to straight men.
-No one here.
-I know what Ranch water is.
-I know what really well.
-I know what Ranch water is.
-So it brings up Ranch water.
-I know what the silence falls over the room.
-I'm shit.
-I know Ranch dipping sauce.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-Yum, yum, yum, yum.
-Love that.
-Ritchwater was, I thought it was a cocktail you can get like in Texas.
-Maybe that's what it's by your own.
-It's like a tequila-based cocktail.
-Yeah, it's also a brand.
-Okay, it's also a brand.
-I thought it was like the runoff water if you like spray a horse now.
-Yeah.
-That's probably where it came from, right?
-Some tough association.
-What's this taste like?
-I'm a leaky.
-Let's put some chocolate in it.
-Alright, so this, John, give us some background on the book.
-Okay.
-So, Alexis was correct.
It debuted as number six in the New York Times bestseller among the young adult category,
where I guess anyone can just write a book and it could be a bestseller based on this one.
Goodreads Determined was the most searched standalone title of 2014.
It was somehow marketed as a psychological thriller.
-But...
-Yeah.
-That's a psychological thriller we read there, folks.
To promote, we were liars without giving too much of the plot away.
Sorry.
A blog on Tumblr was created that focused on the aesthetics of the Sinclair's Island
with quotes.
The promotional material urged readers to quote, "Just lie" if they were asked about the
ending.
I guess the lie was like, "It was good.
I enjoyed it."
-Thanks, Clara.
-I liked it.
-Nobody else did that stuff.
-Yes.
This series was greenlit by Amazon and it premiered June 18th, 2025 with a full eight episodes.
This is all just so upsetting to me, every detail more upsetting.
-They're like 53 minutes long.
The series is longer than the audience.
-That's crazy.
I am surprised that they didn't look at this book and say it's a movie and said they were
like...
-I guess because they maybe looked at it and were like, "We can...
There's nothing in here.
We can write whatever we want."
-No, honestly, that's why I'm curious about the series because I'm like, "Oh, if you made
this a movie, it would be a short film."
But with a series, you actually could create something that feels more like...
I haven't watched the series, but I feel like it's in the whole nine perfect strangers
kind of zeitgeist world.
-Yes.
-It's like you focus on one thing for a huge amount of time and you allow it to just break
for...
I bet the series is better.
-Yes.
Well, here's what I'll say is...
Actually, I feel that there's so little in the book that that's why they had to...
-Yeah.
-Make up full plot points.
And there'd be a whole episode and I was watching it with my wife and my friend who was
visiting from out of town.
I was like, "Part of what we're doing this weekend is watching this whole series."
-Yeah.
-But they were like, "Don't tell us what happens."
And I was like, "Well, I couldn't possibly because nothing happened in the book."
-Yes, very true.
I agree.
I just like even watching the first two episodes, it was like, "Oh, each of the mom characters,
the mummies, they have a background and there's something going on."
Like, "Oh, she's cheating."
And like, "Oh, there's something...
There's stakes for every single character, which is definitely more interesting."
Even like Johnny, who we even talked about, but is one of the...
one of the liars he has...
-Why are they liars?
-Exactly.
-I guess.
-I missed it when I read the book.
I missed it in the TV show and I missed it the second time I read the book.
Meg, that's my wife, said that this is the TV show, so I don't even know if it was in
the book.
It was like something when they were like eight-year-olds, they stole candy online about
it.
-I think it's not the same for the liars.
-Is it...
-I don't think that was in the book.
-I'll tell you what.
-I don't think that was in the book.
-I sure didn't hear that.
-I think if your kids are eight and you're like, "Oh, they're the liars," and then you call
them that for the rest of their lives.
That's a poor parent's rule.
-Yeah, sure.
-These, the little ones, we call them the littles and the big ones, we call them the liars.
And you know what?
Guess what happened to the liars?
They became criminals at the end of the book and they burned a house down, so that
was manifested by the parents.
-Also, can I just say, who are the real liars not telling her the truth for that entire
year that she's back?
They're the liars.
-No, Dr. Jirkondation was to not tell it would happen because it would destroy her.
-You've got to follow the doctor.
-Janna, wait, before it, because I know we're about...
We're trying to dive in.
Do you want to give us any author info or...?
-Yes.
-E, what's Lockhart is really Emily Jenkins.
-That's a different name.
It's a different name.
And when she writes a young adult novel, she uses the pen name E Lockhart, which was her
grandmother's maiden name, something.
-Okay, but she has a point.
-I'm just saying Emily Jenkins is a kind of boo.
-Super boring name.
-I don't want to hear which is.
-But maybe comfortable for a child.
-Emily Jenkins.
-I'm Emily Jenkins.
I feel safe.
Great.
E Lockhart, I feel dangerous.
Sex.
Drugs.
-When does it mean crazy?
Her Emily Jenkins.
It seems like her, one of her parents last name is just Jenkins.
So she even added the S.
So she's a liar.
She says that she likes beachy gothics with plot twists, feminism and occasional comedy
in her Instagrams, which is like, yes, I'm so, yes, I'm there.
All of that stuff sounds great.
It is not great here, unfortunately.
-It's a beach in it.
-It does have a beach in it at the end.
One of the things that was written up, the very mysterious figure, by the way.
She's one of those people that's like, I'm only an author, that's my only online presence.
You're not going to know anything about me personally.
One of the things that was highlighted was that she wrote, we were liars with, quote,
"knowledge of the ending," which is just like, wow, how revolutionary.
Like, that's really cool.
You wrote it.
-To be fair, we have read other authors that are like, I just made it up as I went.
-I have a plan and I should change it.
-If you can believe it, no outlaw.
The novel was written in five acts.
-You're going to say five words.
-We're going to say five words.
-I was like, "It's a funny thing."
-Paces of it were rearranged, particularly in the middle three, which is like, after you
read it, it makes so much sense that it is just like a collage of words.
And then the relationship between the liars was inspired by Lockhart's, quote, "fantasy"
of having close friends grow.
-Oh, no.
-It's like, oh, that is really sad.
-It is and it does read in the book.
It reads in the book.
-I would say, but it's not really believable, friends.
-This is a fall.
-I wish you hadn't said that because now I'm going to feel like that.
-Well, but now she has money.
-That's true.
And I would trade money for all of them.
-That's why it's a best seller.
She's got her series.
That's why we're allowed to mock it.
-Okay, guys, don't still punching them.
-Just because we're side friends going out.
-Also, I just want to clarify.
I said that in a backwards way.
I meant I would trade you for money, not that I wanted you and settle for money.
-Yeah, I understand.
-Yeah, no, no, no.
-You're saying that we're clear.
-It was crystal clear.
-I think the tone was right, but the words I actually said were wrong.
-Great.
-I'm going to burn you.
-That's it for the author in the book.
I will just add, I think, before we kind of get into things, a little more context is this
book is about a stupid wealthy family who owns a private island near Martha's Vineyard
called Beechwood Island.
Their name is Sinclair's and they spend their summers there.
And the island is organized as a de facto private state with four independent mansions
windmere at the north, cuddled down the northeast, red gate at the east, and Claremont
at the west with private tennis fields, beaches, and docks.
So just so you know, that sort of the setting for the Sinclair family is like them on their
island in their mansions.
-Honestly, my wife haven't.
Like we're in.
-Yeah, we're in.
-Also, I feel like it's important to point out that the book is like a lot of purple prose
and like odd sentence structure, which like like a like ee Cummings type shit where it's
just like cutting stuff off midway and it's like choppy and really dramatic imagery, I guess
that's supposed to be like the teenager, but also it really threw me off.
And this is where I'm curious of this through anybody else off because early in the book,
you find out that the main character, Caden's, Katie, her parents divorced and she's talking
about like before this, there's a lot of like, I don't know what happened.
I don't remember and we're cutting back and forth between like these few different summers.
And then this, I'm just going to read what it says.
This is when her dad's leaving.
Then he pulled out a, yeah, this then he pulled out a handgun and shot me in the chest.
I was standing on the lawn and I fell, the bullet hole opened wide and my heart rolled out
of my ribcage and down into the flower bed, blood gushed rhythmically from my open room,
bed from my eyes, my ears, my heart.
Sarah, I'm holding back laughter with this, you sicko.
That never happened again, that never happened again.
It was, it was a description of how she felt.
Metaphorical.
But it was so unclear.
I was like, oh, so that's the thing that happened that like caused, she got shot and that's where
the memory is like it's going through and it continues.
But I don't think that was the purpose of it.
I think it was supposed to be like dramatic prose, but like I'm just kept going reading
the book and being like at first I was like, oh, what, she's like, what happened?
I'm like, well, we know what happened as the reader.
She already told us she got shot by her dad.
I'm wondering how that's going to all like, hook back up to this.
Oh, I got to treat for a second.
I figured it out.
I thought that was something that really happened, guys.
I thought that for a second.
So what's crazy about it is though that like as an author, that type of writing never happens
again in the book.
It's not like she doesn't just like narrate something that didn't happen unless she's saying
like the king has princesses and you know that.
That was that was that was when I realized that that earlier part was prose was when she
started doing like the like the three daughter stuff and like all that other stuff.
But but that was all italicized.
But the part about her getting shot was not italicized, which should have been because if
it was italicized, I would have known it was prose and connected to the other stuff.
It was so weird and I she does bring it up multiple other times in the book.
I have to I hate the job.
The like blood spilling and my heart.
I agree, but I feel like she does it.
It's not real.
But it's always her head.
Right.
Yeah, that's about her head.
She's like her head like her skull cracking open and that is true.
Oh, like that's more of a way I would I've like heard people describe pain.
It like it's like it's like this.
And not it was it wasn't the way it was.
It wasn't true.
It was it was it anyway.
So for I don't I don't know how but there was a good portion of the book that I just thought
that that was I didn't think I thought that that's what caused the head injury that she
was shot and that she was trying to figure out and then I was like had to eventually I
guess like David was saying realizing what the prose is like, oh, wait, was that that wasn't
something that actually happened.
No, she's not talking about it again.
But like the whole premise is like don't talk about it.
Don't talk about it.
Nobody tell her about it.
So like it made sense to me that it wasn't brought up again.
I don't know.
It was weird.
I think the thing was as we never met him.
Yeah.
That's true.
So why would that's the other thing like when I think about how she met it.
It's like it was that dramatic to her.
But like she never talks about her dad or like you ever see her interactive with anybody
else about like how much she misses her dad or like the only talking about her dad is when
she goes on the trip with him.
And she's like, which is cool, which is a crazy trip because who goes to like Italy and
all these places and it's just like rolling their eyes at everything and just wants to stay
in the hotel like what the fuck?
I mean, I could see any teenager feeling that way.
Come on by the teenagers, you like interested.
You know that this stuff is important.
Like even if she liked it, but like she's like crazy red and she's got so much access.
But like culture.
You'd want to have an also she wants to be with her friends.
It doesn't make sense.
It does it.
Not how she does it makes sense because she was missing the widest book I've ever read.
No, yes.
It really is.
But there's an Indian guy.
It really, really is.
What?
Gat Patel.
I don't forget two Hispanic workers.
Would they make sure to mention?
Yes.
She does not know she also like is like, I don't know their names, which is I thought funny
because I did notice that in the series they changed it that she thought think she
knows their names, but she's wrong about the names as opposed to just being like in the
book.
I never, never, never, never, never heard anything that I would ever want.
You know what I mean?
It's just.
It was like, I don't, yeah, these people are just, it's hard because nobody's likeable in this
book.
Maybe except Gat.
You maybe feel bad a little.
No, he's not like.
Oh, he's got potential.
So, man.
I'm actually.
I mean, he writes the books he wants to read on his legs that summer.
It's like, that's it.
Why are you doing it with Sharpie and rewriting them every day?
Because you don't read a book at a day.
Are you not showering?
What's happening?
I had a hard time with like, I was like, is this taking place in modern times with cell phones
because sometimes they're reading, oh, there's no reception on the island.
Tricky fine.
Fine.
So I would say don't have anything to say.
It's a good plot.
That's a little way of getting away with something.
Something that I didn't like catch on to until I was watching the TV show is it was definitely
a way to hide the reveal of saying that there was no reception on the island and then also
her traumatic brain injury.
They took her phone and her screens away from her.
So despite the fact that there were two years between when the big trauma happened and
when she goes back, it was condensed to one year in the series.
It is better, but still, it's still a lot.
It's hard to rebuild a house in that time.
It's still hard to imagine like, wait, why did nobody respond to you?
Like, really?
They were all just told not to and nobody even tried to say anything once.
Like it was weird.
Right.
But the problem is I feel like I didn't think like in retrospect, since we know what happens
at the end, it makes sense that they didn't respond.
But it doesn't work.
To be really talk about, but I'm just saying I at the time, I was just like, none of these
characters are believable.
None of them seem to act in a way that makes sense to me.
So it didn't, I didn't even question it.
I was just like, okay, in this world, these rich people don't only talk to each other
in the summer.
You know what I mean?
Like, I was just like, all right, I guess I didn't think about it.
Yeah.
Can I say that even, I found even the dogs kind of unlikable in the story, the five bone and
three worse?
Do you remember, can you guys remember what their names were?
Because it's the worst names for dogs I've ever heard in my life.
Where are they?
Franklin and Eleanor.
Can anyone name a single dog?
That's what it was in the TV show.
Liberty or was that one of the littles or nothing?
It does.
A bell to me.
I just print Liberty Bell.
I don't remember any.
I'm going to tell you these fucking dog's names.
It's a dog name.
They were poppy, Bosch, Grendel, Prince Philip and Fatima.
I remember Prince Philip and Fatima.
Did you say Grendel?
Oh.
So much better.
Not as beautiful as Grendel.
Grendel even sounds like a worse Grendel.
Yeah, it's like close.
It's like maybe that's also, yeah, some lingo.
Poppy is okay.
Yeah.
Poppy is fine.
It goes down further.
I don't like it.
I mean, obviously the names are all pretentious.
But within the book, like the way she describes characters, sorry, I want to play a little game
with you guys.
Okay.
I'm excited.
I'm going to read a few, I'll say, I guess nouns, characterizations.
And you're going to have to guess if it's a person or a Yankee candle.
I'm so excited, Sarah.
Okay.
You said game and I was like, why isn't this the whole cast?
Okay.
Ready?
Yeah.
Beach walk.
That's it?
That's all you get.
Candle.
That's a candle.
That's all you got.
Yeah, one.
I would be hard to describe a person as Beach walk.
Pancakes and syrup.
Candle.
That's Miran.
It's Gat and KKD.
It's Gat.
All right.
This is a need.
This is okay.
Whiskers on kittens.
What's not a candle?
That's what I do.
I know it's not a candle because the whiskers on snow, I feel like is a candle.
What?
That's a person.
It's a candle.
No!
You know what I'm saying?
You're thinking of cherries on snow.
Of the cherries on snow?
You're right.
You guys know a lot about candles.
You take them.
Yeah, Yankees are the best candles you can get.
And dogs and beach roses.
Okay, that's a person.
That's got to be...
I fucked up.
I didn't write who this was, but it is.
That's got to be Gat, right?
He was always...
Oh, it was so easy.
The easiest one is ambition and strong coffee.
You know who that is.
That's Gat.
I would love a candle that was ambition from me.
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
Can I just...
We've got the premise.
You get it.
Stop on the strong coffee.
Yeah, let's stop.
Is like she describes him as that when they...
Is that a fencer?
He's a old.
Maybe.
And so when I thought...
I forgot that she had described him that way as a child.
When I thought she was doing it in there like ten years, I was like, "Oh, it's about as
a personality."
But as an eight-year-old, it does feel like it's the color of a piste.
It feels offensive.
It feels something.
Well, when you don't drink coffee, yes, of course.
Yeah, what reference coffee do you have other than the color?
That's true.
And pot, don't touch.
Don't touch.
Mommy, that's a mummy drink.
A mummy drink.
Wait, can we talk about mummy?
Why is that the only...
Why?
Does she call her mummy?
You're a grown-up man.
You've committed a murder by Arsden.
You don't mean to see mummy.
I hated it.
I also thought for a little bit because simply because of the word mummy that it was a...
Oh, my God.
What is it called when you just are making your child sicker and sicker?
Munchows in by proxy.
I was like, "Oh, this mummy is giving in munchows in by proxy."
So I was like, "Maybe that's the moms."
Yeah, like she can't remember because the moms' drugginger.
I thought that.
Maybe it's interesting.
That's interesting.
Yes.
I mean, there were a million ways this plot could have twisted.
That would have been more interesting and more like, "Ah, I saw it coming."
That would have been one.
What's funny is, I feel like the book was written in such a way that I wasn't trying to
figure out what happened because I didn't care.
It was so little information.
It was just using words that were repulsive, like, too many, and like, describing people
like Yankee candles.
And then, like, kind of just repeating over and over again, like, I need to figure out what
happened.
Oh, my God.
I'm just trying to figure it out.
I was more like, "Ah, just fucking tell me already."
Instead, like, just...
I know it's not going to be good, whatever it is.
So why don't we just get to it?
I thought it was like, "Daddy or Err."
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because there was a lot of...
I thought too.
There was a lot about Gatswari.
The twist was...
I really did have the same reaction as the commenter when I got to the twist.
I was just like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
And then, like, you had to listen as it's, like, graphically described how they all died,
how, even before that, how the dogs died, I was like, "Jesus Christ."
I was gapped, to be honest.
I was like, "Whoa, this book took up my monster."
I liked this.
My biggest question was, was, "Why that house?"
I understood it was the grandfather's house, but I was like, I kind of was like, "Why?"
Like...
They were like arguing about a different house.
So it was like...
Yeah.
Maybe it makes more sense for it to be that house.
I don't know.
I just didn't understand how that...
I guess my biggest thing was, like, their thought process was like...
I didn't understand why that would change anything.
It's...
I also, like, their plan to burn down this house, because their family was feuding over who
gets it, was so flawed from the beginning.
They were like, "Here's how it's gonna work.
We're all gonna bring in a can of gasoline for the boat.
We're each gonna take a different floor.
We're all gonna...
A-strew our gasoline everywhere.
Then the person on the ground floor will light the match.
And that...
Not wait till everyone's out.
We'll get light.
Basement...
You'll get lighter than that.
Exactly.
The zombies.
Right.
You want to see...
Do you...
I feel like these deaths, like this big, twist death, you want it to feel like, "Oh, it
makes sense, or it was like...
We've been talking a lot about kind of greed and I guess maybe...
Kind of in this book."
And so...
It's almost like the lesson was for the parents, because they were so greedy, they drove their
children to burn...
I could kill themselves, but like, we don't hear anything from the parents.
We don't hear...
Right.
We know nothing about them.
And so it's just...
It was so weird for that to be the twist to me, because I'm like...
It just wasn't fulfilling.
And this is something the TV show does a bit better is makes them characters.
And...
The parents...
I don't know.
There's like a...
Yeah, like, I could kind of see why they wanted to burn down the symbol of the Sinclair
family in the TV show.
In the book...
It wasn't quite there.
And it's just like the plan was so obviously gonna fail too.
They're all just soaked in lighter fluid.
I think...
I think Kate and should have been prosecuted for...
Oh, I don't...
She's seen this like the...
The end of the episode...
I'm a murderer.
And then everyone's keeping a secret.
Don't talk about it.
I'll get better.
Can I also...
I'll get better.
Am I the only one...
Am I the only one that doesn't understand how...
And she comes back for year 17.
How...
How she's talking to everybody...
Oh, because they're ghosts?
Because this is also a supernatural aspect of this.
Is that real?
Oh, I thought she was just like hallucinating.
I feel like an eye to be ghosts.
I thought it was never...
I thought it was never told to us.
Oh, yeah.
I think it goes.
The...
The TV show...
Look, I don't want to give it to me.
It makes you think...
It makes you think that they're definitely ghosts.
And...
Maybe I'm getting...
Maybe cadence isn't the only person who sees a ghost.
Oh, I haven't gotten to that part.
But maybe they are giving...
Maybe I'm getting the ghost feel also from the TV show.
But I...
It is...
Because it's like how...
It's too much conversation.
Oh my God.
Also, they're all the conversations they have are so dumb and pointless.
And they don't feel like...
They're like building a tuna leg on TV and...
No, no.
They don't.
Can I say something positive?
No.
Shut up!
Yes, yeah, you can.
Can I say that...
Like, I got a little bit...
I felt something when cadence and got together a couple times.
I was like, "Oh, these scenes...
Like, I'm...
Scenes."
These scenarios with the two of them, I was like, "Oh, I could watch this."
Like I actually enjoyed their relationship together.
I don't know why.
I love any romance in a book.
I don't read this kind of...
I don't read this kind of in a book.
Like actually having some camp of two lovers who are infatuated with each other.
I was like, "Oh, I could see why people use this as porn."
Yeah.
You know going in that they're both hot, because that also really helps.
It is...
She loves love.
I don't know.
She's so dramatic.
It's a teenage girl thing.
The very specific, this like first love is a very specific trope, I guess.
But yeah, I don't know.
I guess it was fine.
It was just because it was all this amnesia stuff.
I was always just so confused about their relationship between the like back and forth and
like, "Does he have a girlfriend or what's going on?"
And dating someone else, Raquel.
Yeah, so she's cheating.
Like he's gross.
He's cheating on his girlfriend.
Yeah.
He even disagrees.
He's like, "There's so much cheating in the TV show."
They're so you.
Yeah.
I don't know if I care that much about the cheating.
I just...
I don't understand why.
I don't understand why the character gets coming back, because it seems like he, by his youthful
rumination, that he's like, "Realize that St. Clairs are evil and they'll never accept
him and he calls himself Heathcliff and all that."
And I'm like, "Why are you there, dude?"
Like...
Yeah.
So that brought up another topic for me, which is the references to other literary events.
But I think he... I mean, it's just what he does.
He seems like a real...
He seems like a real downer to like, be on your friend's private island and be like, "Well, nobody,
don't really, it's anymore."
(laughs)
I don't know.
They're white, but I just mean like, who's... they're... they're not anybody's people.
They are like the one percent of the one percent of the one percent.
Like, nobody can relate to them.
It's fine that you can't relate to them.
Like...
Also, we never saw any sort of hatred towards him.
Right, that's true.
That's true.
Like, there was never a moment in...
Like, he... he...
The grandpa says something once, right?
He says like...
No, it was referenced.
Watch yourself.
Yeah, yeah.
It was really very vague that she went back and interpreted as, "Oh, maybe."
But it was still...
It was so vague that it was like, "I don't know."
I don't know.
Yeah, there's...
Nobody is actually profiling him in the book.
Like, I can understand what he is, maybe, understanding, but like, we don't actually understand
the profiling, right?
Yeah, and it's also...
But it's also because...
That's because nothing happens.
Or you could argue it's from...
Because it's from Katie's perspective.
And she is such like a rich white person that she doesn't see it.
Like, you know what I mean?
So we're not going to hear about it because she doesn't see it because of her, like, blinders,
which is possible, but it's also like...
It's a lot of lifting for me to have to do as the reader if you know what I mean.
Yeah.
Also, I feel like that's so generous to be author.
It's very generous to be author.
Like, we could have...
We could have...
At least, been told.
We could have been shown something...
Right.
I mean, other than just through "Gat" rebelling against.
But the Heathcliff thing made me remember that a couple times throughout the book, they
reference, like, she...
Just in a throwaway, she's like going through, crappin' her bed, and she's like, "This is
a giveaway."
She's like, "Oh, the copy of King Lear throwaway, I don't need to read that again."
It's like, "Okay."
So, you think you're making a little homage to King Lear here, but you're not sure it's
clear enough, so you are going to say King Lear in the book.
Exactly.
She does this all the time.
The book starts with one of my favorite examples of this, which is, "It is true I suffer
my grain since my accident.
It is true I do not suffer fools."
I like a twist of meaning.
You see?
Suffer my grain.
Do not...
It's like we did see.
We could read.
A twist of meaning, you see?
Suffer my grains.
Do not suffer fools.
The words mean almost the same thing as they did in the previous sentence, but not quite.
Suffer.
You could say it as a score, but that's not exactly right.
And I swear to God, you guys, I wanted to find this quote online, so I had it exactly,
so I typed in part of it, and it took me to a goodreads question.
Juliet J asked, "What does this part of the book mean?"
The twist in meaning part, "I got a bit confused," and then she quotes it.
And then someone below explains to Juliet, "I think the difference in the two meanings of
suffer was that while she could not control the migraines, she had to suffer them, but she
could choose to not suffer the company of fools.
Hope this helped.
Smile.
And it made me want to blow up the internet."
That's the world, huh?
Yes.
I mean, the Heathcliff thing, that was a whole chapter of the book, him explaining the
parallels between him and Heathcliff.
Just write it if you want that there, maybe just introduce it in the plot or let us,
the reader, it's YA babies.
I just was looking at my notes, my random, like, rants as we were listening.
And early on, there's a scene where Gat picks up, picks a rose and is like putting in
a letter, and she thinks it's for him.
She thinks it's for her, for her, but then finds out it was for Raquel, and I just kept
thinking, "Who puts a rose?
Who does that?"
Like, who sends the rose in the mail?
I guess it's easier.
I'm gonna get crushed.
That's how you know it doesn't really like you.
You can't get it together to write something.
I love Raquel.
I'm obsessed with Raquel.
She is the legend of this book.
She is the reason this book was written.
Raquel, Raquel, Raquel.
Raquel, rocks.
I love--
Do we know anything about her?
No!
Nothing, nothing, right?
I feel like--
She doesn't want you to know anything about her.
She is the queen bee, and she lives forever.
I know mine is a god.
I'm happy the other characters die, but Raquel can live.
She is the Isabella Rosalini of Death Becomes her Raquel.
Beautiful.
Wow.
I think we moved past something a little too quick, which happened to our back, which was
John overening up just how much gasoline they thought they needed it.
Like, I understand.
It's an engine.
Oh my god.
It's so cool.
They're not--
They're not.
It's funny because they're not very-- they're supposed to be well-educated or could be going
to Harvard or whatever, but they're-- yeah, it was--
It was like--
Everything about that was just--
The balance each.
Soak your own clothes.
Soak first.
Soak your clothes.
They died because of stupidity, and it's like, what's the purpose of that?
It was sort of crazy.
It was so fun.
I am peddling.
Stand nearby with your ass cam.
That's-- I'm not joking.
That was the point.
That was the plan.
And they were like afterwards.
But afterwards, we'll all meet up in about 30 minutes.
We'll meet up and make sure everybody got out OK.
And it should make sense.
I'm on the first floor and it'd be easiest for me to get out.
I'm just going to assume they made it out as a gift.
Yeah.
I'll start the fire here at the base of the building.
I'm sure--
Blocking the doorway in the exit route route.
In what world?
They're 15 years old, right?
They're not eight.
They are now 15.
But--
OK.
Put all your gallons of gasoline around the house.
Reconvene.
Get together.
Figure out what you're doing.
And like the match.
I don't think we need to be like a match on each floor.
Exit.
You know what I'm saying?
Literally, just literally nobody's in the house.
Throw gasoline and light a match.
It will start a fire.
It'll be--
The dogs are in the house.
OK.
But I just come on.
You're forgetting about the-- you're going to-- you thought about it.
You're going to burn down a house and you forgot about the dogs.
It's fucking crazy.
And she's like--
She's like--
She's like, I remember.
I really should have thought of them because I was the one that took care of the dogs.
It's like, yeah, you should have fucking thought of them.
And her description, too, of like, it's so wild.
She's like, how could I have been so wrapped up in my own criminal exercise?
Fatima, Prince Philip?
No.
Her two face.
Can I ask a question, too?
It's an island, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Where the fuck did she get-- did they get that much gasoline?
Great question.
The boat house, I believe?
I mean, that's what happened in the TV show.
I know.
I was supposed to be trying to explain it.
I know.
Oh, it's gasoline for boats.
OK, all right.
That makes some sense.
I didn't remember what it was in the book.
But still--
I don't know that the book says that.
There's so much I honestly do.
I do think-- I mean, I feel like Claire a little bit.
I was like, we're going to keep coming back to this because it's the main thing that happens
in the book.
It's the big twist.
And it's just so nonsensical.
I guess, OK, we earned it maybe going back and looking over, rereading that, OK, they are
all dead and nobody's talking about it.
That was what happened.
I mean, I guess that is earned, but I just think it's so unsatisfying as a story.
And then it just ends.
She remembers.
And then it just ends.
And she's just remembered the murder.
And I guess her ghost forgave her.
Which is why--
The ghosts were all pretty forgiving.
Pretty gentle.
Pretty nice.
Don't feel guilty.
We always feel guilty.
It was very much her fault.
They definitely all die because she was--
the shirt was the plan was dumb.
But she's the one-- why did she like the fire?
Why did she assume that?
I mean, it was just so many-- she's pulled the trigger.
Like she--
It's seemingly pretty cool.
She was kind of the leader of the--
Yeah, yeah, it was also her idea.
Like, yeah, you're right.
It was a series of like, this is totally her fault.
Like, put this woman in jail.
I get it's traumatic, but like--
So she's the people that are jailed for them?
Yeah, so nice.
And she's--
It takes some time to think about it and present.
And again, like, this character that we've kind of like--
I feel like is only shown as horrifying characteristics
or like, she's, you know, selfish.
She's too good for Italy.
She's all these things--
sorry, just at some point, like, she's
giving away all of her stuff.
And she gives away her pillow to a homeless person, I guess,
some-- to some homeless girl.
And then she says, my bed was uncomfortable that night,
but it's for the best.
And like, that's the type of person
we're supposed to be rooting for.
Like, you fucking kidding me.
Like, you are trash.
You're a trash human.
I don't know.
She's-- listen, she's not good if the murder says anything.
I really don't like--
And she just serves those--
I agree.
I was going to ask-- and the little--
Oh, sorry, I was going to say--
the little stories, because there are little stories
interspersed throughout the whole book.
Like, nothing happens until the very end.
But then there'll be a little story about a king
in some princesses.
Again, we're very little happens.
But then you find out that she's writing
these little stories, and it's kind of like her talent
or her skill.
Oh, you think she wrote them?
Yeah, I do.
Am I getting this from the TV show?
I also was under the impression that she wrote them.
I don't-- I think I didn't get that far in the book the second
time, so I--
I don't know if it's the second time, so I--
But anyway, the point is, they suck, so it makes sense
that she wrote the second time.
I think she thinks of-- I think she does write them.
One of my favorites was there was a little fairy morality
play, and the lesson was that one of the fairies
had been given wit, but she used it
to make people laugh instead of making them think.
And it was just like, ah, yes, nothing
I love more than a friend who can just explain shit to me
would hate to hang out with someone funny.
Let that be a lesson.
There were also all these funny family
mottos and stuff, too.
There were the morality plays we had to suffer through
over fairies and princesses, and then there was like--
the Sinclair's had a family motto, which one of which
was never complained, never explained, just stolen from the royals.
Yep.
Oh, that's an actual--
Yep, just fully stolen, very clever.
You know what story I actually thought
would be better than this book?
The Three Sisters?
Sure.
Oh, yeah.
One of the fairy tales.
Like, like, yeah, directly, directly--
like, that was the thing that I was searching for so much
is what actually was the reason that these kids
became who they were was because all three of these women
were under somebody--
and like, you know who the redeeming character
of this entire movie?
This entire book was the stepmother who died.
Stepmother?
Your mom?
Or just the grandma?
Grandma.
The grandma?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, grandma.
Oh, yeah.
It's a tipber.
I wanted to know everything about a tipber.
I did, too.
She seemed like the only likable character,
other than, of course, our heroic Raquel.
Well, wasn't tipber the one who was like, I like ivory.
No, yeah.
Yeah, shit, shit, shit.
I'm well.
So do I, Claire.
We all have our tipber.
Do I?
You know, we love ivory on this cast.
Sorry if that offends you.
You know.
I think it should--
Move to what final thoughts?
Or maybe hit some hate rates, hit some good news.
Did you want to do it in the Ask the Author, John?
Or I saw that, or you know, not real.
I did have a funny quote from the author.
But yeah, we could do maybe like maybe two people
do an Ask the Author if everybody doesn't want to.
That's fair.
I don't do it.
David, this segment is just, I ask a question,
and you imagine how the author answered.
Give me like a quick answer as the author.
If you want, or the ladies can play.
And then I'll tell you what her real answer was.
So my question was, E Lockhart, what's her name?
E Lockhart.
What did you think of the--
or E Lockhart, how did TikTok respond to this book?
The clock?
[LAUGHTER]
Slap.
I'm sorry, I know that's an uncommon.
I think TikTok, TikTok, love to it.
You know, they lifted it up, and it really connected with them.
I didn't realize so many people would feel so connected to Katie.
And I guess there were a few people who didn't like it,
but my followers really pretty much canceled them.
So I won.
I win.
Great.
And let's get one more response.
E Lockhart, how did TikTok respond to this book?
What did they think?
It's Emily here.
Hello.
I'm so sorry.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that everybody on TikTok really--
listen, I only follow East Coast Hamdenites.
And so everybody on the East Coast totally understood
what was going on in my book.
And Fire is a big element of the East Coast Hamdenites.
I did not know that.
Wow, really interesting.
So the real answer is--
I really liked the voice choice you made in there.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
So basically, because of the pandemic, she says,
TikTokers really started making videos
that were more than just saying, hey, here's a book I like.
They made videos that were very vulnerable,
reading the novel, and responding to it.
Sometimes they were throwing the book across the room.
Sometimes they were weeping copiously,
and Snot was dripping out of their nose.
I must scare out running on their face.
The essence of those responses was, what the fuck, this book?
I just--
No, do it as Emily.
As--
I--
[LAUGHS]
The essence of those responses.
What the fuck?
That seems like she took it well, even though I
think if somebody threw the book across--
See, yeah, I mean, they don't like it.
I worry that that is somewhat furious.
But yeah, he--
Lockhart was like, you know what?
Any press is good press.
Any reactions are good reaction.
Throughout--
Right.
Scream, burn it.
Good.
I did listen to like a brief interview with her,
where she talked about being nervous about this book,
people receiving it because they wouldn't like the main characters.
Correct.
Or like a few--
They were like a few--
Sure.
Like all, like, yes, that was the problem.
But then she was like--
But then it was kind of nice.
It was kind of-- she was like, but I--
You know, like one of those, like, I had to take the swing.
I'd rather take the swing than, you know, put down the bat.
And I was like, all right, I guess.
I like that, right?
All right, sure.
OK, well, I like that idea to say--
Is this your first book?
No, not by a long shot.
John, I would have been good to have that information.
Oh, right.
I apologize, David.
[LAUGHS]
And she wrote a lot of children's books first.
And then this is--
Maybe her first young adult.
OK, that makes sense because in children's books,
you actually really can have nothing to do with it.
You could be like, here's a picture of a dog.
Oh, yeah, that's a book, the end.
I would love to see the children's book version of this.
You've seen it.
This is it.
How could it get more children?
Except at the end, they color on the walls.
They're burning the house, they're killing the castle.
See them all with the guilt.
No, the other children still die.
OK, one thing I hadn't done in a long time
was read a book that has like 70-A chapters.
Oh, yeah.
Yes, I actually love that.
We love that because it does make you feel like you're reading more.
And there's always like, at the end of a chapter,
there's always all that blank page.
You know what I mean?
It just goes so fast.
Yeah, I remember I was reading to it, and I would be like, 82.
What, wait, what?
It'd be like 81.
And so I did 82.
82.
It really, really, anything could be a chapter.
Any amount of words, as long as you have one word,
that could be a chapter.
All right.
I love that.
Yeah.
What a cliffhanger.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right.
Jay, you want to do good reads, 5,000,000?
Yeah, so unfortunately, some people did like this book.
Kristen gave it 5 stars.
She said, "The plot introduces itself in a vague manner
and slowly unravels."
I found that the message has held more power
than the characters delivering them.
The sum was greater than its parts.
OK, what a glowing reveal.
I know.
I guess maybe that's true.
Just be-- we're talking about it,
and I'm trying to come up with messages that the book maybe had,
but it's not in the book.
It's just I'm trying to figure out what it's saying, maybe.
Sure.
I'm going to start with the filters, so.
I know.
I'm just going to read it.
I know.
I was going to say it.
Kiera said, as a poem, one word on every line,
much like these chapters, "I am lost amongst my endless tears."
Very teenager.
And then Susanna gave it 5 stars.
She said, "Warning to everyone who reads, we were liars.
Be prepared to scrape your chin off the floor with a fork left."
Wait, what?
Big chin.
Wait, four cliffs?
Are they known to scrape?
I think if you have a really big, heavy chin,
you wouldn't be able to lift it with just a hand.
That's so crazy.
I mean, yeah, I don't think--
Just because your chin has fallen to the floor
doesn't mean it's so heavy that you need a fork left.
I'm just confused by that.
Bashing down into the ground.
What is the matter of faw?
Bashing down into the ground.
What she's saying, with the fork left,
is that her chin has gotten so large that it's forked?
I don't understand what that means.
Does the head not follow the chin?
Good point.
Did it still attach to the head or did it fall off?
I don't know.
Because I think what we're really talking about is fainting,
if that's your chin is hitting the floor,
I suppose you're going down in a heart and a result.
I thought it was all down there.
This is a heart.
This is a heart giving us a roundabout.
I don't like to think that long about teenagers' words usually.
So I think we can wrap it up.
Sorry to any teenage fans.
I'm more not talking about you, you listeners.
You're smart.
The fact that you even listened means you're
so cool and smart.
I love talking to you.
You're cool and smart.
Let's do our hate rates and just Dave's, David,
so you know, we do out of five, five bean.
This was a good bad book, zero bean.
This is the worst bad book I've ever read.
And of course, we're not comparing these to Shakespeare
or whatever you think is good.
It's in the world of bad books.
So let that guide you.
But does anybody want to go first?
Yeah, I'm going to go first.
Zero out of five.
I found it personally offensive
that to punish yourself, she died of her black.
(laughing)
It's rude.
A lot of people have that color hair.
Beautiful on them.
Not David.
On everyone.
On everyone, on anyone.
I'm going to go with zero out of five.
This book was slop.
It made prep look like a masterpiece.
That's not true, but it did.
They burp both bad.
It did in their own way.
Johnna actually thought one of the books
we read this season was a real masterpiece.
I don't remember.
I already don't remember.
Corrections.
Corrections, yeah.
By Jonathan Franson.
It is.
It's a masterpiece.
Okay.
So to finish my time and my review,
it's a zero.
And I was already mad.
And then this woman killed the Golden Retrievers
in the book that put me over the edge.
I was incensed.
Then the people died and that brought me back.
I was like, yay, that's good.
Glad those characters are dead.
But it still didn't redeem it enough to give it a star.
Wow.
I can go.
I think it's a two out of whatever the scale is for me.
Five.
It failed.
What I've got to say is that my score is more
of a two out of six than it is a two out of five.
So one out of three?
So--
Thank you.
It's a one out of three, a two out of six, a one point,
probably three out of five.
I don't know how to do that kind of math.
But yeah, listen, it was six hours long.
I was able to listen to the whole book.
She's definitely a good point.
And then listen to three quarters of the book.
She's definitely a good point.
That was in this span of three days, where
I had other stuff going on.
A poor friend.
I mean, you are getting points for that.
I will say in the TV show at the end, which I was expecting.
Obviously, I knew it was going to happen.
Meg bald her eyes out.
Bald her eyes out.
We know who is men.
I will say that's a wife, my wife.
But she was so devastated.
And I was laughing because I knew what I knew what was going on.
And so I love a motion evoked.
Be sure Meg is comfortable with you, saying something so embarrassing
about her.
The TV show is world-to-be sure that it is.
Yeah, I can just talk to you.
Small part of me wants to watch it, maybe more than a small part of me.
I'll say, I'll probably keep, I'll probably maybe watch a few more episodes before I decide
whether I'm going to bail on it.
But I'm going to give this a 2 out of 5.
Obviously, I agree, Johnna Prep was better, and I gave that a 2.5, so it must be lower.
However, this again gets a point for being super short.
I agree with Sabrina, that was a real treat.
Yeah, I do think it's fun.
I mean that there was a twist is fun.
But yeah, I didn't, you can do it.
You can do it, said.
It didn't hurt anything.
I'm sorry, my child walked in.
That was very, very attractive.
Did she lose confidence?
I lost a little bit.
A little bit, a little bit, that immediately sucked my confidence out.
2 out of 5, I'm going to mute.
I'm going to do a 1.5 for location, because I actually think it's ideal.
Like, like, Island East Coast Island, who doesn't want that, right?
And a 0.5 for everything that my dog chewed off of the book that I couldn't get to.
And then 3.5 negative for killing a bunch of dogs.
Yes.
That's never, like, I can't come back from that.
And maybe if I added a 0.25 negative off of my 1.5, it would be for not telling me if
they're ghosts or not.
You got to tell us, guys, in your book.
It is, it is strange that it isn't clarified if it's in her head.
Where they are.
Just give me a line.
Just literally go like, and I, and I, and I wonder if I actually saw them that summer.
Just give me a line.
Yeah.
And the ghost was strong coffee.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, leaving the smell of strong coffee lingering in the air.
Great.
Well, and at least at that age, she would have, like, she would have confidence to be able
to say those words.
Yes.
Wow.
So we're all pretty much in agreement.
This was a tough one but an easy read.
So a great pick.
Can I just, can I say something that is like a literary criticism that I should have said
at some point, at some point in the podcast?
I, even though she knew the ending when she started writing it evidently, I really don't
feel like it was written as though she knew the end.
I don't think, and the TV show, this is a criticism of that as well, because I was like
actively watching to find out that they were ghost, so are figments of her imagination.
And it's really hidden, really.
Can you give away what it is in the show?
So in the show when, like, I was watching, and there was one moment that stuck out at me
where she's like laying on a beach blanket with Mirin who has died.
It's also so funny.
I'm talking about basically I mean, the character's names in this podcast, but she's laying
on a beach blanket with, with Mirin and with one of the littles.
And one of the littles says, tell me a ghost story.
And Kate and says, why don't you ask Mirin?
And the little goes hilarious.
And then grandpa interrupts and then they all leave.
But then when she realizes it, there's like a flashback moment of like all the times you
see them and then they like take the ghosts out of the scene, so you see it happening without
them there.
And it's like, that scene you had to know it was a ghost to catch off.
And I feel like it's meant to have that six cents moment.
Yeah, I think they're trying to do six cents.
Yeah, I appreciate that you shared that, Sabrina, because now I know I'm not.
I'm not gonna watch the series based on just some details that I heard there.
I was like, cool, got it.
In the book, there also is the moment where like he does, he's like, I don't believe in
Sunblock or something, but it's like, supposedly a reference to like, he can't get
it.
He's like, oh, I didn't even think of that.
Like, what?
Yeah, I just kept waiting.
When's the payoff for that?
When's the payoff where he's super sunburned?
And the vacation is her wound.
That's all for her wound.
In the show, there's a moment where her and Gat are in town and he buys her ice cream.
Like he's the one who physically goes to the ice cream stand purchases it from another
person.
Wait, how does it go?
Gets the ice cream, gives it to her.
But I mean, they explain it later as like, no, that didn't happen.
You were a magic.
No, that's too bad.
Okay, why?
No, we have to change it.
He could have been like, I'll buy it for you and then she goes, no, I insist.
Like all they had to do was that.
Right.
Like, never have a ghost give someone a physical object if you want them to be a ghost.
Did we do a little fucker of the cast?
Did I miss it?
No, I need to be in.
No, let's go.
Okay.
We'll go up.
So, David, you can go first if you have an immediate dislike or you can kind of wait, what is this,
a story?
We're going to vote for who you dislike to the most this cast between, we call it a little,
little, little, little, little, little, little, little, little cast.
Oh, the cast of the podcast.
Yeah, the podcast.
We want to, yes, so, yes, so, don't try to pick one of our children, somebody did that
one.
Somebody did do that one.
You have to pick one of our kids.
You don't have to go over all of us.
I picked myself for offending a teenager.
Yeah, you can do that.
You can definitely pick yourself.
No, I'm going to pick Clara.
Yeah.
What happened to picking yourself?
Because we disagreed on hair color.
Okay.
Yeah, you have the black, hairy blonde.
Yeah.
Well, I just disagreed with like the depression and the murder.
Yeah, the symbolism that we see again and again in books, the black hair is evil and
a witch.
Usually the good person has red hair and there's nobody with red hair in this, so that
made it really distinct and interesting, I thought.
But everyone has blonde hair.
Oh my god.
My little fucker.
Did I just not have any?
No, don't worry.
My little fucker, I asked what the dogs names were and then like nobody could even venture
one guess.
Nobody had an answer.
So I'm a little mad at all of you about that.
But I know I need to like latch onto one to target my anger.
I can only pick one of you even though I'm a little mad that none of you knew the dog's
names.
Like I guess I'll go ahead and put it on Sarah because Sabrina at least tried Clara is
a very famous dog, Lallor and David's our guest.
Sarah, you're my dog.
I have doggies.
I have dogs and loves dogs and I loved hearing the description of your dog.
I have it locked in.
You have a whip it and you have a black dog that's a mix of a shepherd.
Correct.
Thank you for remembering this.
Yeah.
All right, so that's one vote for Sarah, one vote for Clara.
Interesting.
Okay, here's the thing.
I went into this podcast.
Also, I would really love for anybody to make me a.
Oh, well, that wasn't where my voice was going to be, but I'll explain.
I went into this podcast thinking I can't possibly pick Johnna because Johnna incredibly
thoughtfully texted me before the podcast.
And basically, Johnna said, I finished the book and I realized I got to the end and I realized
that the end might be really triggering for you.
And so we can like skip over as much as you need to.
And my first thought was because I talked to ghost.
But then I did remember that my childhood home burned down.
So it was actually a really thoughtful test.
But here's the thing.
The whole fiasco with the summary.
Yeah.
I've got about for Johnna despite the extreme kindness she showed me.
And I mean, I guess I was like, LOL, no need to tip to around it.
So she was like, well, I guess I'll take that as a sign to give it away in the first four
minutes of the cast.
Okay.
I hear that.
All right.
So I'm sorry, David.
I wanted to make your dreams come true, but I love that for you.
That was so remarkable.
Yeah.
It's the journey I had to take.
All right.
I accept it.
Yeah.
Really?
This is really spread out.
This is unusual for us.
Clara, you know what you have.
No, I don't.
No, I don't have really anything.
I have retaliation to save it.
I'm not sure.
I could put on a wig right now.
I could kill time.
I could get a job.
I could stall.
Do a different color.
Okay.
I guess I'll go with David.
I have retaliation and he asked for it.
He also did a lot of visuals, this podcast, which is I like that.
I like that.
And famously in the lore of the cast, I've been against judgeable by its cover.
Yeah.
I'm like that.
I am tend to be the one who's against a visual descriptions on an audio podcast.
Yeah.
You just reminded me that my vote for Donna doubles down because she called it described
a vice cover.
Well, we should do it more often.
I'll know it.
Wow, I love this is fun because I feel I have so much power right now because essentially
there's a lot of the John, I declare a David and Sarah and myself.
I will say I did consider John for similar reasons of the opening, but I also feel I was
to blame a little bit since I suggested to her to do the only song.
She doesn't honor you.
So I couldn't ever.
I couldn't possibly vote against her for that.
But then she gave us a lot of information about the author, really other books.
But she seemed to have the information, but she's right away was like, it's not the first
time.
You were supposed to tell us that.
But I did, David, did ask for it.
So I did want to give it to him, but he didn't really piss me off this episode.
I did think, David, I did think you were going to be like, I knew the twist from the beginning.
Did you?
You didn't admit that though.
The twist?
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
At the top, I thought that was going to be your giveaway that nobody, I thought somebody
would have figured out the twist.
All right, I'm sorry.
I mean, I'm going to just, I shouldn't do.
Yeah, we shouldn't do John, huh?
Doesn't make any sense.
I don't have any, give it to Sabrina because then we're all equals.
All right.
I know what.
Yeah.
That's fair.
I love getting so.
I have a reason for Sabrina.
It's because she read this book twice and watched an eight hour series, whereas usually, David,
she has to listen to books at three times speed in order to get through them.
So, uh, you just, you clarify both times, we're at three point five times.
Okay.
I'm just saying you gave an inordinate amount of your time to this book compared to other
my books.
I just knew who the guest was.
Yeah.
That was right.
So, this is the first time, I think this is the first time this has maybe ever happened,
that we are all little, we are collectively, the little fuckers of the cast.
So, congratulations.
It's like a sisterhood of the trail.
No, Jay, the thing.
Somehow feel like I'm not.
I'm somehow feel like it's more everybody else than me.
I mean, I'm certainly more clear.
All right.
Next week, we have the plot against America.
So go ahead, check that out.
If you haven't become a Patreon, please become a patron in the mean arts.
Please give us some money.
Please subscribe.
Please check us out on TikTok.
Please send us your recs.
And David, do you have anything you'd like to plug knowing that this is coming out in August
or September?
Love.
You want to plug love?
I want to plug love.
All right.
I'm really fine.
And go see my movie.
And go see I don't understand you.
I was gonna say, go see I don't understand you.
It's very, very funny.
It shows Italy in a different light than this book.
And also, there's murder, but, oh man, give me a way too much now.
I'm giving away too much.
Fuck.
If you've watched the trailer, you've seen the entire movie.
No, I'm not sure.
I was gonna say there's murder, but like the murderers are so likable, which is different
than this book.
The murderer is very dislikable, so you don't.
But totally, it's hilarious.
Go see it.
All right.
Anybody else have anything to add?
I think I successfully avoided doing pretty, pretty princess.
Yeah.
No, we're gonna.
No, pretty princess.
No, it's dead.
Thank you.
Thank you, instead.
Wait, it's dead.
It's dead.
It's not dead, and we've had this.
Why is it dead, John?
The episode three.
'Cause we took yourself out of the rest.
I think it's a pretty princess.
It's dead.
You can't take yourself out of the one.
We don't want to do anything, David.
It's not.
I made up all I was gone.
It's not dead, and you know what?
I'm gonna vote for Clara.
Although for myself, it's not all in now.
I'm the pretty, pretty princess.
I vote for you too, Clara.
Thank you.
David and John will raise everything.
I love it.
All right, everyone.
Thank you guys for listening.
We'll see you next app.
Bye.
♪ I can't wait for the love of God ♪
♪ I'll fall down ♪
♪ Let the ash fall down ♪
♪ And wake my dreams ♪
♪ Let it burn away ♪
♪ My sanity ♪
♪ 'Cause my friends died in the fire ♪
♪ I won't us scream ♪
♪ Even the dogs ♪
♪ At the farthest burn down ♪
♪ I'll call me Cle ♪
♪ I'll call you Cle ♪
♪ Cle ♪
♪ At the farthest ♪
♪ I'll find a match like ♪
(upbeat music)
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