So really the state of sleep is like a mini death.
It's endless.
And then even a more fundamental question is,
why do we need to sleep?
Why is it so powerful?
You cannot escape that youth.
Sleep enough.
Why is that?
So I think it appears that the awake state
is when the soul and body are in a donation
and they are active and they're working.
But after a while, based on inherent nature or whatever,
the soul has to disengage from the body for a period of time.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Welcome to the Quantum Theory podcast.
Today we have a very special guest, Dr. Syed Jaffrey.
He is a medical oncologist, cancer researcher
and teacher at UT Health Houston.
He's written two books.
First, the 40 spiritual rules for the journey of life
from all Quran, second, God and God of science.
Also, he's produced two documentaries.
The first, on his first book, the 40 spiritual rules.
And second, more of his storybook documentary
on the Islamic character, Imam Hussein.
So very excited to introduce Dr. Jaffrey.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Good morning.
Thank you very much for this opportunity.
Of course.
So I hope this has jump in first and just learn a bit more
about your origin story of course, being a medical oncologist
in such a materialist profession and traditional world view
in that side of things.
I'd love to learn just kind of your origin of growing up
in Pakistan, all the way to becoming an oncologist
and really where faith and particularly
the Islamic faith began taking root in your life
and how that's impacted you.
Well, yeah, sure.
We can start-- so a group in Pakistan
in a large city called Karachi.
It's kind of similar to Houston, huge,
with maybe 10, 12 million people living there.
And the faith initially just came from family teachings.
Also, I went to medical school in--
it's called Al-Wafani University-- say one of the top private
medical schools in the country.
In fact, in the region, you know.
And then decided to come to US for additional training.
I knew I wanted to be an oncologist
and US offers the best training programs.
No questions about that.
They're very structured, very organized,
and you have a clear path.
So again, here, settle in US and then eventually
add up being staying back after finishing my training.
So the spiritual aspect of things,
I can see that it's kind of come from the religion primary,
that if you follow religious path,
then it comes from that.
But also just from regular inquiry and investigation.
So if somebody has an inquisitive mind,
they want to know about what's going on.
How does the universe come into existence?
And was there evolution?
And the bigger question, the big question,
what is purpose of life?
Why do we exist?
What happens?
Why am I here?
Why there's 7 billion people on this planet?
What are they doing?
What's their big point behind all this?
And then the other big existential question
that people almost always ask, what happens when I die?
Is this the end of it?
So you start to explore these questions
from various perspective, from science perspective,
from philosophy perspective, and from the religious
last spirituality perspective, and try to make
sets of things.
And I think really what my conclusion,
where I've tried reaches, that the reality of existence
is really one thing.
What we all experience is just one reality.
But our perspective and vantage point
could be different.
So a physicist can look at the cosmos
and give their interpretation, well, that's how things started.
And that's how we can know.
And they have their own tools to analyze things.
They rely on mathematics and instruments,
and then they try to come with a conclusion.
On the other hand, the same universe
can be viewed by a philosopher, you know,
from Aristotle, Plato, whatever he's seen, and others,
who try to give the next position
with the universe by the universe exists
and what is their vantage point.
And then comes in religion and spirituality,
and then they give their perspective,
well, that's how that's what things exist.
And so really the difference is not really
in their different interpretations,
it's just your different vantage point.
That's why you're reading different conclusions.
So reality of existence actually the same.
It's just the way you look at it is different, you know.
And for the existential questions,
I think the best really comes from religion, spirituality,
you know, from physics.
And just you can understand how things are now,
and but why do they exist?
And I think there's not much that data they have,
they can, you know, rely on to answer that question
because their method is different.
But as a philosophy relies more on logic and reasoning
and then they say, okay, well, if this exists
than what was before that, and you know,
sort of logical conclusion as to why universe exists
and is there a higher power, et cetera, et cetera.
And then of course, religion relies more on
another form of knowledge, we just call revelation, you know,
which is to a, if there is a higher source
than they give you in sort of intuitive knowledge
and you have a sort of a vision and you realize,
okay, that's maybe what things are.
So the real difference is epistemologically, you know,
the theory of knowledge, science relies on empirical evidence,
they need to analyze things and you know,
all the other religion as philosophy relies more on logic
and, you know, rational thinking,
whereas spirituality is based on intuitive knowledge.
And I think there is really,
one should be able to blend it and then there's one
not need to be a conflict, it's just a different advantage.
- Awesome, I really appreciate that and it definitely resonates.
I think what would be interesting too is to learn a bit more
about from the perspective of the Quran
and even what I read as well and God and God of science
of the different types of knowledge,
such as we have things as you mentioned,
like revelation, we have direct experimentation
and things of that accord.
I'd love just to dive in a little bit further
about the types of knowledge that we can acquire here.
- Yeah, so knowledge is like a metaphysical reality
which exists inherently with existence in them.
So if something exists, there would be knowledge about it as well.
Question is, as a human being, as you know,
who has curiosity, how do we acquire knowledge from various things?
So the simple way to acquire knowledge,
simplest ways of observation,
that's how the children learn.
So the newborn, how do they learn what's going on
through their sensory observation through it?
You may notice that child wants to put everything in the mountain.
That's the way of analyzing things like an analyzer.
So when they pick up something,
they have to put in the mountain or what is it?
It also, yeah.
Yeah, so they rely on sensation.
So tactile sensation, visual, so that's how you learn
and you learn about the environment around you.
Explore the environment.
The other is through communication.
For example, somebody sends me an email and I know about something,
or a verbal communication, or a written communication,
or an event is happening, a match is happening,
and a game is happening in a stadium.
How do I know about it?
Because there's a fly out about it.
So that's how we learn it, that's what something is happening.
So communication is the other way.
And humans have developed language,
which is a wonderful way of transferring knowledge.
So with language, you can store the body of knowledge.
So what one generation learns, they can write it down,
develop writing, and then transfer it to the next generation.
So the entire body of knowledge creeps,
increasing, so communication either verbal or written
is the another way of knowledge.
The third is really, we can call the empirical way
or doing an experiment.
For example, I give in the book,
is that for example, if scientists are trying
to figure out if elephants have kidneys or not.
So what is the scientific way of, let's say,
if this is the question, what is the scientific way of doing that?
Well, they'll do it.
They know, let's say they have about 10,000 elephants in the world.
They'll take a small sample, let's say 10 elephants.
And then, if it's ethical body approves it,
they say, okay, we don't have to ask the animals
and see if they have kidneys or not.
Or maybe do an MRI scan to see if they have a kidney or not.
And if these 10 elephants have kidneys,
or let's say nine out of 10 have kidneys,
then we can kind of generalize that,
yes, all elephants can have kidneys.
So that's an, you do an experiment, you get some data,
and then you can extrapolate and say,
well, they must be true in all elephants.
Now, if a philosopher has the same question,
and if they want to know, do elephants have kidneys or not,
they can put a rational argument and say that,
all elephants are mammals, and all mammals have kidneys.
So, all elephants should have kidneys.
So that's a rational way of getting it to the same conclusion,
but now you're using an XEM, then a logic,
and a rational, to get to that same question
that you're trying to answer.
Now, the, but there is more to it.
So that's where most people operate.
So, common people are everyday life.
That's where we operate in these things,
to communication, to rational,
that is, to empirical evidence,
and that's our sort of working knowledge
through which we live our lives.
But there are more to it thing.
There's something called intuitive knowledge,
something that comes sort of from within.
You just kind of know that it is true.
It could be a gut feeling, it could be,
you know, more, you just have a, you know, epiphany,
you just, all of a sudden an idea comes to you
and then say, well, that's how it is.
Is something that's come from within, you know?
And it could be random, it could of course be wrong.
Sometimes you're gonna be wrong, the idea about things,
but they think there's a method behind it as well, you know?
People who engage in, you know, serious spiritual practices,
they kind of learn from within,
their knowledge sort of springs from within them,
they're being, you know, like they kind of make
an internal spiritual correction
with a higher source of learning and they, you know,
and they learn, so it could just be,
for a simple person, it could be a dream
in which they know something, you know?
But for a more advanced spiritual practitioners,
you know, like yogis or prophets, they can get visions
and they can get see things,
which others ordinary people cannot do.
So that's another way of knowing.
To give you an example, you know,
often people, let's say, have a dream
in which they find out something is true.
So they learn something and then later on
in real life, they also found it is to be true.
I can quote a personal example, you know,
nothing out of ordinary, but what happened is that I was,
many years ago I was doing an experiment
in lava was a training in oncology, and we were trying
to experiment on a chemical that was extracted
from an herbal supplement,
to see if it has anti-cancer properties on.
So we made this solution, we divided this model of mice
when we were given them cancer, the cancer was growing
in these mice, and when they divided them into two groups,
one group got the placebo, the other group got the medicine,
and the way we were injecting the medicine was,
we would draw the medicine in the syringe
and then inject in their peritonium, like in their abdomen.
So everybody, abdomen has a lining called peritonium,
so just under the skin of the abdomen.
So we'll pick up the animal and inject into the animal,
and then see what happens after.
So we started the experiment in the first week
when we injected our experimental medicine,
pretty much all animals appeared sick,
and eventually they all died from the experimental medicine.
And this medicine was supposed to be coming from an herbal
supplement supposed to be safe.
It had been studied in other studies as well,
and so we were kind of a little surprised as to why
our animal's dying, you know, really this is not supposed
to die with the placebo animals are doing okay,
and all the experimental harm in which we are using this drug
from an herbal supplement everybody's dying.
So I was a little surprised as to what's going on anyways.
I went with a little disappointment as well,
you know, that my experiment is not working.
And then I remember I was sleeping during that time one day,
I think after noon, and I felt that I have a lot of abdominal pain,
a lot of belly pain, during sleep, you know,
I get up that woke me up from the,
that my stomach is hurting and I have a belly pain,
that kind of woke me up.
And afterwards I started thinking,
it's kind of correlated with my experiment,
that perhaps what's happening is that the chemical
that we're injecting is causing what's called chemical
peritonitis, it's causing inflammation in the lining,
because that lining peritonitis kind of sensitive.
And if you inject it, it can get inflamed,
and that chemical peritonitis is probably
what's causing animals to become sick and die.
So all we did was just change the location of the injection.
We started injecting into the skin rather than
into the peritonium of the abdominal lining.
So rather than lifting the animal,
and turning them over and injecting into the belly,
we started injecting in their back where there is skin, you know.
And the animal is dead fine, and the drug
show that it's working for the cancer, you know.
So that's an example of an example of intuitive knowledge
in which I really could not figure out why it was happening, you know.
But in that dream, I kind of had the feeling that something is not
right with my belly and my belly is sort of hurting.
And that kind of started that epiphanies and that that maybe
that's what's happening with the animals as well that when I
inject it's causing that peritonitis in there.
Because I had a medical breakdown, so I could, you know,
correlate with these two things, you know.
And then we were told it was true, you know, when we injected
into the skin, the animals did fine, and you know,
the experiment was successful.
So that's an example of intuitive knowledge.
That's something simple that I think many people can relate to that.
Sometimes you have that extra sort of source of knowledge.
You don't know where it's coming from, but you know, it's true.
So that's I think, and but there's a method behind it as well, you know,
those who do advanced spiritual practices and those who, you know,
take this matter seriously, they through sort of method of
self-purification, they can actually get a lot more knowledge.
You know, they kind of have a clear understanding of what
reality of existence is.
So, you know, I think that's something that people need to appreciate.
And building on this is what we call in from Islamic philosophy
perspective, the revelation or there's a term called Vaheeh,
that for example, what what the mystics know or what the
Bible has in it or what the Quran has it that individuals what
we call prophets or you know, spiritual leaders,
they get direct knowledge from a higher source of knowledge.
So when they describe something, you know, as if they are seeing the reality.
So that's like the truest or the highest form of knowledge.
But you know, of course, you have to correlate with the reality of how
you observe the world and make sure you know, it makes sense to you.
But that's that's not just coming from nowhere.
You know, there is a source behind it and that is given to those
individuals or those those individuals can acquire if they have a
particular spiritual path or spiritual status, then you can have that sort of
direct knowledge or you know, intuitive knowledge in which
sometime you can, you know, just tell what it is.
Without necessarily through an analysis or through an experiment,
you just kind of just know that that's what it is.
Absolutely. So thank you so much and it makes so much sense.
And I think that that segues really into the idea of,
you know, realities outside of the material.
And I think today, especially we are so stuck in our in our rational mind
that we have somewhat supplanted the need for God or some type of creative force
for the filling in with reason and rationality and being able to, you know,
find, you know, supposed morality as you stay in your book.
Even though it's really pseudo morality because ultimately what is the point of
virtue and doing good if there is ultimately no
and destination for those actions. Why help a later generation if all that matters
is survival that that is, then you cease to exist after this lifetime.
Why even do that other than it just being more of a virtue signal?
But I think in the book, you're certainly spot on in the sense that whether they know it or not
or whether we know it or not are in, in transit goal is the perfection of our soul.
It's to the evolution of our, of our soul through the acquisition of knowledge
and through all sorts of growth within this lifetime to lead to that next outcome
and into that hereafter or whatever might be following.
So I'd love for you to kind of touch on really that the difference between
the material realities and the metaphysical realities
and also how important it is to be implementing that into our life
and really adopting a worldview that isn't just so stuck in the material, if you will.
Yeah, I think there is a limitation to material explanation of the universe.
There's an inherent limitation in this because it does not in the end add up.
It does not answer all our questions.
People kind of intuitively know that there's more to it.
That's why there's kind of a reception within general people about spirituality
and about religion because they know there's more to it than what just the I cease.
Coming to your earlier point about the the perfection that why we all you know
what why we seeking perfection is just it also there's a pattern in what people seek.
A respective of who you are a mad woman which culture you grow up or which religion you follow or
you know whether you're scientists or not.
There's an inherent design in what we are seeking.
We all want to gain knowledge.
Nobody likes ignorance.
We all want to be strong and powerful.
Nobody wants to be weak.
Again, wealth is also way of getting strong that you get more power.
You can do things.
That's why people want to be wealthy and not dependent on the others.
The same way we all love beauty.
You know, nobody wants to be ugly or seek
a gueness.
Everybody wants goodness.
Everybody wants justice.
So there's an inherent design within us to seek certain attributes or values and the perfection of that.
So when you get some beautiful object, then you want to get even better than that.
So when you gain certain amount of knowledge, it's not that your thirst goes away.
In fact, you become even more thirsty now.
You want to get even more knowledge in.
Right.
So there is an inherent design within us to seek perfection of these attributes.
And that in itself is tells us that maybe there's more perfection.
There's a source of perfection.
There is manifesting everywhere in the universe.
And that's what ultimately we all are seeking.
So we may go after an object of that attribute.
You know, like a powerful position.
You want to be, you know,
counselor of your of your community.
And then but once you've reached that, then you want to be congressman.
And then you want to be a senator.
And you want to be in.
So it's no limit to it.
So you want to build up on because you have an inherent desire to be powerful.
You know, to have been powerful position.
Same with goodness and, you know, wealth.
So that tells us that there's really what we are seeking is a higher source of perfection.
And which that's what religions just type as God.
You know, that's the ultimate reality enough existence that that's inherently.
So even if we completely say, well, we are atheists.
There's no God.
But inherently that's exactly what you're doing.
You're not doing anything else.
You're also trying to do the same thing.
You know, so you you cannot escape that design.
You know, because that's how you're designed.
So those who acknowledge existence of God do it sort of more cautiously
that that's what we're trying to do.
Whereas those who deny the existence,
well, you're still doing the same thing.
You know, but you know, you know, in a different way.
Anyway, so now coming to you, I think that is there more to a physical world than,
you know, than is there a metaphysical reality to existence or also or not?
I think the evidence is mounting towards that that you cannot ignore that.
For example, if you just even look at the structure of the physical universe,
what the cosmologists tell us that all the stars and the galaxies
and they know and the supernova etc, they make up of what's called 5% of the universe in material universe.
About 20, 25% is what's called dark matter and 65% of what's called dark energy.
Which by the way, have not been detected is just theorized that they are should be the adish.
Otherwise, you cannot explain why the galaxies are held together.
You know, because there's not enough mass.
If you just look at the stars, there's not enough mass for them to hold them together.
There must be some other source of matter in the galaxy sphere that keeps the galaxy together.
And the explanation for it is dark matter that is more matter, but it does not emit light.
So it appeared that what we observe is a tiny fraction of our sound there,
even just from a material perspective.
But also when we, you know, look at the religious sources and, you know,
the spiritual text they have talked about a larger metaphysical reality that there is more to life than what we see.
Especially from, let's say, from Islamic cosmology perspective, the explanation is that really the,
there are not one universe but multi-versa, they're, you know, different universes.
And physical aspect of reality is just one of the planes of existence.
And then there are higher planes of or higher dimensions or different dimensions of existence,
in which, you know, a person can go and, you know, and things exist, you know.
So we are, the way I see what we're seeing is the material world is just a interface of a much larger
metaphysical reality. We are just observing one aspect of things, but there are other things.
It's a famous quote, quote from one of our spiritual teacher, Masters, Imam Ali, that
people are sleeping and they would wake up after their death.
So as you go through the life, you are actually like a sleep mode because you don't have the full
big picture, but only when you sort of die that you're, I think the way of saying is the, the,
the one interpretation of this is that your consciousness is limited because sleep is a limited
consciousness, right? And awake state is a higher concept. So in the same way in the entire human life,
even in our awake state, our actually consciousness is still limited. And when you die the level of
consciousness rises much more and then you start seeing things that you otherwise would not be saying.
And also from a medical perspective, I can say that they're this pure biophysical model of medicine
that there is only physical body and that's to it, you know, you're made up of molecules and atoms,
you know, but even if you go just through quantum physics, the, the, at the very base is what's called
quantum field, you know, which carries energy and then within that energy, you know, there is some
vibrations and those vibrations create the subatomic particles and rest of the material world is just
based off of that, you know, so in the end, it's quantum field or energy, you know, so that this
material experience is also very sort of fragile, you know, it's very temporary. It's, does not
be real to it, you know, because you know, if it's coming from fluctuations of these, you know,
these energy fields, it can be changed as well. It does not appear like it's something inherent in
existence. And one of the quotes from Quran about the life of this world is that the life of this world
is nothing but enjoyment of a delusion that what you're experiencing is really a delusion is like
you can call like a matrix, you know, your, your environment which you're experiencing a reality,
but that's there's more to it. This is not it, you know, this is, this is like a a mirage, you know,
you're that you're living in and then once there's this, what is so question is what is beyond quantum
fields? Or if you take away the quantum field, what is beyond that? And what is the source of quantum
field? So there has to be another layer of existence. So you can say the metaphysical existence is another
layer of existence. Our search gets it to quantum fields. And what is beyond quantum fields or
what exists on the other side is we don't know. So why are we saying that this is where the reality ends?
Because for a thing to exist, it does not necessarily have to be perceivable bias.
Now, something can exist without beyond our perception. So what we perceive and what we can detect
through our instruments should not necessarily the however, why are we concluding that only those
things can exist that we can perceive and that we can detect. Can things exist which we don't
perceive and don't of course, because we have limited perception and understanding. Things
reality is far bigger than that. And then so coming back to bias prediction model that the
do we have a human soul or not? I think that perhaps is the biggest inquiry, a biggest question of
human civilization that do we really have a soul? Now, other older civilizations have had solved that,
that right from the time of Mesopotamia and then the Plato and the Greek philosophers and the Islamic
philosophy, they said that there is soul. But now after enlightenment, we have given away and
then there is no soul. The previous lot of civilization culture says, well, there has to be more to
human life. There is a soul. But coming back to modern medicine that we describe human body
just as a physical being and everything that happens is through that. Now, of course, now this era,
we analyze things through empirical methods and people need to know what is your empirical evidence,
how do you know that human soul exists? Why should I understand it? Yes, some books may describe it,
but what is the empirical evidence or tangible things that I can... The challenge that comes is that
soul is not necessarily a metaphysical thing. It's not a physical thing. So you cannot do an MRI scan
or a PET scan to look at the soul because it's not going to show up. But are there other ways of
knowing it? So the real question is about consciousness. Can there be consciousness beyond death?
If there is consciousness beyond death, then you know, you know that there is... There has to be...
So there has to be another explanation for this. If your body has died and why are you still conscious?
Then the answer for this actually comes from a study published in Lancet,
Journal in 2001, in which I think they took about 340 or 50 people who had cardiac arrest and then
they were revived and they got brought back. And then they interviewed them and about 18% of them
reported that they had what's called an out-of-body experience. So this is published in a standard
medical journal. Lancet is a well known... You know, inside the big journal. Right. That about 18% of
people described that they had an out-of-body experience in which while they were supposedly gone and
in a well-incarded crash scene were being revived, they could see themselves sort of standing outside
their body being revived or maybe meet their dead relatives or maybe have a very vivid visual
experience that they... Like the... What is very common in these descriptions is that the...
what you experience is far more vivid and real appears real than what you experience during
sort of normal awake state, you know. So there has much much profound, impactful experience. It's not
like a dull dream or a awake dream that you have. It's actually very profound. And there's a... Maybe
there's light or maybe there's a pleasant experience or maybe there's a painful experience. So about
18% and this was across all cultures, all gender, even children have a children who would not
especially have a, you know, an expert understanding of after life or, you know, big religious question,
but even they can describe that having that experience. And then they followed these people over a period
of about, you know, eight years and then asked them, "How did that experience impact your life?"
And then those who had this experience were actually profoundly changed their life, you know,
that that experience was real. That's something that they felt, you know, that near that experience.
But most people can say that... So that's an argument that it goes in favor that, you know,
our consciousness may not necessarily be arriving from this physical body. They could be other
source of consciousness, which we can describe as soul, but it's sort of manifesting through our physical
body. But most people can say, "Well, I've not had near that experience, so why would I believe in it?"
But I think I can say that most people have had a spiritual experience. And the way, the reason I say
this is that we all fall asleep and then most of us can see dreams, you know. So in dream state,
as such, our eyes are closed, the room is dark, but you can... In that state of consciousness,
you can travel, you can meet people, you can have conversation, you can taste food,
you can have pain, you can have pleasure, and then you can have come back. So all while you are
in a way is God. So we have the other explanations of dream that your mind is wandering around and
and this is creating them, images, but that is a way of knowing that you can have a state of consciousness
beyond your physical experience. And there's actually a verse or ayat in Quran which describes that.
We say that we take away the soul of those who have died and also of those who have not died,
but are in state of sleep, you know. But those who have died, we just keep them with us. Whereas those
who have not died, we return the soul back to their body. So really the state of sleep is like a
mini death. And even a more fundamental question is, why do we need to sleep? Why is it so powerful?
You cannot escape that. So why is that? So I think it appears that the soul, the awake state is when
the soul and body are in you know, you're nation and they are active and they're working. But after a while
based on inherent nature or whatever, the soul has to disengage from the body for a period of time.
For recharging the body or recharging the soul, whatever the bigger question may be, but that's a state
in which it's disengagement. That's why a level of cautiousness decreases. We sort of slip away from
the reality. We're out. And then the soul can experience whatever need to experience. And then
after a while, we re-engages and then we're in the awake state. So if you look at a human body
within awake state, you can tell while the soul is engaged with the body. Whereas in a sleep state,
what Zidies happen is slow. The soul has disengaged from the body, not completely because this complete
would be death, you know. But partially it does disengage. That's why you cannot maintain consciousness.
That's why you slip out of consciousness. So sleep is like a mini-death. Just like death is
inevitable. You cannot escape that. In the same way, sleep cannot escape that. You have to fall asleep.
It can be given an interesting anecdote that in 20 years ago, I was an intern and our shifts used to
be very long. We started seven in the morning and finished 1pm next day. So sometimes you would work all
night or maybe two hours, three hours, then you go back to work. So when we come back at 1pm,
of course you're tired, you're hungry and you're sleepy. So at that time, the driver's sleep is so
strong that even if you're hungry and thirsty, you just want to sleep first before doing anything
else. You cannot even eat at that state. So driver's sleep is so strong, you know, it's not
compatible with life if you don't sleep. And then that's some inherent design that makes you want to,
you know, sleep. And I think it's kind of a reminder that this phase of life is a
is a temporary place. We all have to disengage eventually from this reality. We kind of engaging
in this material reality and but we have to disengage. And sleep is a reminder that
it's going to come out of wait one day, you know, 100%. No, thank you. Thank you so much. I really
just connect a lot of I have a hundred questions, but you know, so much I want to peer into. I know time
is limited, but you know, one of the things that makes me think of when it comes to, you know, the
nature of the soul and everything that you're describing is, you know, it really kind of gets me back
to holographic reality theory and the idea that the whole is contained in the part kind of back
to the idea of the attributes of the soul seeking perfection and on those points. And it's interesting
because you know, through modern science, we're seeing that we are sort of a fractal piece of
this broader hole in it could almost make sense that we have the same attributes in locally as the
entire universe as a system. And you know, that's my fascination is where I feel that science and
spirituality are starting to kind of tangle up a little bit and starting to interweave. And you know,
I'm curious as well, you know, as we kind of see from other traditions like we hear about the Maya,
right? The illusion. And as you mentioned as well from Iman Iman Ali. And even through what we see
with quantum physics, right? I even remember in the book, in God and God of Science, talking about
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and wave particle duality and even zero point energy. We know
that when everything is zero degrees Kelvin, there's still as a field of energy. There is there is a
field of creation, which on a tangent, I also agree with you that it is fundamentally irrational
that creation comes from nothing. Nothing can give something, right? There has to be something at
the foundation to produce the something. And so I'm curious given that you're definitely on more
of the Islamic religion perspective. I know that you are very scientific in nature as well. Do you feel
that we can find answers or at least pointers to the greater reality that that is God through things
like understanding observer effect in our actual effect on the physical world and sort of the
holographic reality principle and these types of things. Do you think that they have bearing in
that spiritual understanding? Yes, I think this is an area that conversions of science and spirituality.
I think it's a big area of I think that's actually the next I would say the next revolution in human
thought that that is going to happen. See if you trace the history of human thought, you know, we
had the I guess the first we can say the rational rationality, the philosophy of Greeks or the
Mayans or the or the Mesopotamians or Chinese, you know, so they tried to explain the universe through the
philosophical argument and then had a concept of soul and afterlife and you know, and then we had
a Islamic civilization and came and they kind of incorporated a revolution and philosophy also and
then move these things forward, starting basic, you know, algebra, for example, algebra comes from
Arabic word, you know, algebra, you know, and you know, so basically I'll go out of them. So though they
started sort of fundamental scientific concept and then the the came the scientific revolution,
you know, which changed the perspective, you know, where we got the empirical evidence
going and then using empirical evidence, you figure out the natural word. Question is what comes
next? What is the big leap in human thought that comes after these various ways? Then I think the
bigger leap is the bigger leap is going to be that when we start acknowledging that there is more
to existence beyond the physical realm of existence, you know, so and then the people who were likely
going to oppose this is going to be the rationalist and the scientist, you know, so those who the
scientists who were the the who were at the cutting edge of understanding in the during the scientific
revolution and were going against reaction forces may actually become reaction themselves because
they kind of stop acknowledging that because they kind of does not fit their framework of how they
want to seek. There's a paper written in 1987 by a Nobel laureate his name is his name is Joseph
Brian Joseph's but Brian Joseph's since you know, so he I think one of a Nobel prize in physics in 1973
and the title of the paper is physics and spirituality the next grand unification. So that's I think and
it's kind of describes how the reduction is available online if you want to you know take a look
how the reduction system you know it may not be enough to explain what's there so what I think
the it would come gradually but I think things are moving in that direction that people would start
realizing that that there is more to existence than just the physical world. Now in terms of medicine
what I can say is that there are pointers towards that direction. I am there studies which have shown
that for example one of the spiritual principles is to have you know relationship with your
family members to make make contacts with people of your of your of your next next to Ken you know
for your siblings with your maintain that relationship. Now there's a spiritual for example
statement by Prophet Muhammad (S.S.A.W.A.) that if you if somebody makes their
maintains their relationship with their siblings that say or with your first degree relatives it
actually helps you live longer it prolongs your life. On the other hand if you cut off your relationship
let's say you stop seeing your brother or your sister or you know you at some argument you say I'm
not going to meet you again that that can actually shorten your life's manner. Now this is just a
spiritual rule that is given do we have empirical evidence for this. So there are studies which
show this and in fact social isolation is as big a risk factor for mortality as smoking 15
cigarettes a day or maybe even more. So it's a bigger risk factor than obesity. Yeah. So if you are
isolated and you're not in social contact it somehow affects your longevity and I think that's
a very powerful rule. So what I think likely the the way forward is going to be that people who can
kind of agree with both these worlds of world of spirituality and world of empirical medicine
or empirical sciences they can take these spiritual rules and then also do a scientific
empirical study on this and see if these are true and then in this way the path forward would
open up you know start to open up that if then you start real start accepting more spiritual rules
you know to be as true or you know the effect of intermittent fasting and so fasting is prescribed
by most spiritual practice that you should you know fast it's good for your soul it's good for your
body and there are studies which show that those who do intermittent fasting can actually reduce their
human globin A1c those diabetes we there's a marker called hemoglobin A1c wish sort of measures
their blood glucose over a period of time that marker goes down if you as if fast for three days a week
you know. So the this combination would come then you when you start integrating these two things
now you mean another interesting study which kind of bridges these two words I don't know if you remember
this back in 1990s there was a there's a Hollywood star named Christopher Reeves you know he used
to play Superman you know so he what happened to him in in late 90s he had an accident he fell
off his horse and fractured his cervical spine and he was paralyzed for about 10 years and I think in 2003
or 2004 he passed away you know after 10 years of illness now within the year of his death his wife
who was in early 40s non-smoker died of merisetic lung cancer now I was an you know intro that time
when I was interested in oncology and I was trying to figure out you know okay why at these two events
related you know why would somebody in early 40s non-smoker polyphsum develop lung cancer you know
and that's to stage four lung cancer and die you know within a year and then kind of something similar
happened with one of my classmates in medical school you know he is his when we were in 30 or his
dad passed away from heart like all of a sudden you know I said that and you know and then a two years
later his mom developed stage three lung cancer and then she passed away as well both periods were
non-smokers both were physicians otherwise healthy and I kind of always thought that are these two
things linked you know what happens to your spouse can affect you as a and to a point that you develop
cancer and not as simple illness but you know cancer so in 2015 I got an opportunity to do a research
study what we did it was a case control study in which we asked this simple question two major
stressful life events do they increase the risk of developing cancer or not so what we did was we
took about 100 lung cancer patients who had been newly diagnosed and then and we gave them
a questionnaire about the major stressful life events you know so there's a forms and right stress
scale which list all the stressful life events a person can have so starting the top actually is
the death of spouse the death of spouse is considered with the in considered the most stressful
event is somebody's life death of a child or family member personal illness you know retirement
divorce so there are various they list all they give them a grade as well so we took top 10 and say
did you because it's kind of hard to quantify stress you know how much stress for somebody is
but you can but you can quantify the events did you have this event or not it's very clear yes or no
answer so so we asked them to fill out this questionnaire and say did you have any of these events
you know in past five years or ever in your life and we asked the same question there to another
200 or so patients who did not have lung cancer and who were matched for the gender and the age
and smoking service so there were smokers on both sides you know and but one group had lung cancer
the other group did not have lung cancer and we asked them this questionnaire did you have that
event or not and then we analyze the results so in the lifetime there was really no difference between
the number of stressful events between the those who had lung cancer and who did not have lung cancer
but if you restrict it to last five years then those who had lung cancer were twice as more likely to
report a major stressful event as compared to those who did not have lung cancer and this has been
I think reproduced in in a head and a cancer and pancreatic cancer I've seen some other groups doing
it in colon cancer and breast cancer so it appears that that a major stressful life event could actually
be a trigger question how does it work in in physiological terms well what can happen is because
a major stressful events your immune system can become weak you know your immunity goes down so let's
say if somebody has been has decades of carcinogen exposure through smoking they have been smoking and then
and out immune system one of his job is besides talking in the viruses and bacteria is to also take
out abnormal cancer cell to cancer cell so that cancers develop immune system can't you know remove
them from the system but if you go through intense videos of stress your immune system the
teas levels can go down TCL levels function can go down and that can sort of those cancer cells can
really blossom and and become you know malignant now we don't have biological correlative studies we
are doing in the process to see to explain the mechanism but I think there is this this this does add
up this kind of at least theoretically it makes sense that that's could be the case that what happens
to one partner can actually impact the other partner because your immune system goes down it so
it's not uncommon in my practice of CAA that's a grandfather who's like the late 70s early 80s
and who has been a smoker all his life and now has stage 4 lung cancer and you know I when he's
been losing weight and I said what's happened while you're losing weight he said well my my wife died
last year and then I'm not be eating properly so this this grandfather has been smoking for decades
you know for 30 40 years and did not have cancer now he had another event in which the spouse died
and kind of that triggers his his you know immune system in a way that now that immune system that was
controlling any malignant cells no longer is sort of as active as it was before and that could be
a reasonable explanation of why he has cancer although you know some people may doubt this but I think
this this does app physiologically it makes sense that this is possible and possible that this is how
it should be but the other thing the more interesting thing is that it tells us that the spiritual concept
of connectivity that how connected we are to each other we don't realize that when you
spend time with some people you know or you spend lifetime with them you are actually connected
at a some quantum level or spiritual level which you say yes it's like in your entire you know
your entangled with the other what happens to one can affect the other it's kind of same
question quantum entanglement you know the what happens to one particle affects the other particle you
know and and then and then this this is a video and then for example when we say we love somebody you
are actually kind of in a way attached to that person I start off necessarily a physical attachment
but some met a physical or quantum attachment that that's why breakups are painful that it hurts
it is painful why is it painful because you are actually physically somehow attached you know
there's actually interesting saying by prophet Muhammad that when people would be raised in the
next life they would be raised with what they love them so whatever that you love you would be
attached to that so even if you left it love a rock or piece of rock you kind of would be with you
so that the feeling of love is is actually in attachment you know real attachment you know
that is hard to separate you know and then and it has manifestations of what happens to one
can affect the other so I think these are the to answer your question I think I you know I know
went in a different direction that that that's how the science and spirituality can make
headways and connections that you start realizing certain spiritual principles are actually true
when then you have a way of empirically verifying that I think that's when you can the scientist would
accept or the general community scientific and population would accept or community would accept
when when you can verify the spiritual principles through doing some you know empirical
pretty intellect yes so yeah because the human consciousness is a word that if you just tell
me something I'm not necessarily going to accept it no unless I have some you know empirical
basis behind this or a rational way of you know explaining this because you know a lot of things
that are not true are also out there so you cannot you have to separate the true from the untrue
because there are a lot of things that go around and may not be true so yeah to put that into a
framework of an empirical way of analyzing it and that's the skill of this next you know the
science is how do we do that you know to go into to to to to answer this you know the bigger questions
yeah yeah I think one of the things that I really respect about Islam and and and something that I was
learning after being immersed in that book which again I cannot rave enough about I think it
really was such a beautiful introduction to just the general tenets of Islam teachings of prophet
Muhammad and other imams like Ali and others as well who were you know mega impactful on humanity
and still are still are today I think just it's so cool that the foundation is is reason and I remember
you even citing that the first word ever revealed to prophet Muhammad was read if I have that correctly
which is unbelievable you know and that's it's obvious as to why from that point forward the Muslim
world just skyrocketed in their scientific mathematical life sciences astronomical understandings
when the when the foundation of the belief system is to acquire knowledge and to expand your
consciousness so I think when it comes when it comes to reason you know I'm curious if you think that
it can extend as far as in the world of quantum physics you know do you do you think that Islam or
even your own personal belief system allows for an ultimate reality where we sort of are one
with God or we are a fractal piece of it because if you think of the holographic reality principle
you you kind of think about the nature of reality in that way versus God is a separate entity and we
are kind of a separate soul that's being sort of evaluated and judged from a different perspective
of God whereas I think perhaps now through quantum entanglement and again all these other sort of
realities were understanding is we are actually connected to the whole thing and we're actually a
unique representation of the attributes of the whole we can see things like the Fibonacci sequence
from spiral galaxies to flowers you know so there's this sort of code that we are encoded with
and I'm curious if you if you feel that you know through thinking of this in sort of rational lands as
well whether that you know we could be a fractal piece of God itself or are we something that is
kind of separate that is here separately judged and incarnated if you will. So yeah do you have to
start with the first one you have rationality I think that's what especially you know within Islam
I follow what's called Shia school of thought in Islam you know and their foundation is really
rationality they say that even the for example you prescribe these recommendation that you're supposed
to fast and pray and give charity etc there's not necessarily a rational reason why supposed to do
yes beneficial for you and you can just follow that but for the the the bigger concepts of the
ideology is there a God or not is there after life or not you know is Quran really the word so there
is no you everybody is supposed to do their independent investigation to reach that conclusion you cannot
just say that I believe there's a God because my dad told me that you know and that's what everybody
believes you know so you know you have to come to your own rational conclusion then your faith is
sort of grounded because if you if it does not come from within without without using your intellect
and if you haven't really learned it in that way it can disappear as well very quickly you know
once you come across you know some other idea or use any year it would go away because unless
so and that's for your own cell you don't have to explain to others you have to
the belief really should come from your within your own investigation I think that's what
recommended that you do your own investigation to reach the conclusion or just accept it because
you know somebody told you that or you heard a sermon on that you know that's that's not going to
last you know let's go away wash away so that's one point the other thing is about the concept of
you know how what is this relationship between this higher source of existence and the what you
can call creation everything else besides that so just to deliberate a little bit about what Islamic
philosophical spiritual concept of God is that God is like an absolute being which is you know
which is kind of like pure existence that exists by itself you know and it it has no beginning
you know you cannot have a beginning because anything that has a beginning has to have a cause so that
has it is in in in eternal in existence without having any cause it does not really change
the absolute in existence at the same time is unique one you know it's one in the truest sense of
the word now they cannot have parts to it that this part is for vision this part is for knowledge
this part is for mercy no it is whole one in the truest sense of the word that cannot have a second
and cannot have parts or components to it and that what makes it unique absolute being different
from anything else that we experience you know because everything else that we kind of at ease in
our immediate experience that we experience is limited in some way and is made up of components and
parts and so the entire universe is is you know is made up of different parts and and that's
the nature of that and that tells us that it cannot self exist because something which is made up
of parts cannot self exist it has to be put it has it because it depends on the other things to
come into be for example God cannot self exist you know because these parts have to be assembled
to make a something you know the same way a galaxy cannot self exist you know have to have different
stars to put it together so that it that tells you the by this nature it is not self existing it has
to have an outer source for it to come into existence which is different from a say God which is
true as sense in the world and the nature of God you cannot know because our intellect and even
imagination cannot reach that that's our limitation we cannot reach what is a true nature of God but
the attributes known to from God is you know or we can know because yes reveal those attributes
you know like mercy and knowledge and power and beauty so these are attributes now question is how
does that relate with the what else is there you know do other things also exist or not you know of
course there they so there is existence there's a there's a philosophical concept of
gradation of existence there they the pure existence and then their level of existence kind of
go down till we get to the basic bottom like material subatomic particles you know that's the
minimal form of existence do they they also exist but their level of existence is minimal so there's
a higher grade of existence and the lower their existence and sort of soul and intellect are at a
higher level and the material realities are at a lower level you know of existence so now question
is what is then creation the Islamic concept the what I've understood is that the material
universe is also a manifestation of God so the terminology that is used is is that what you're seeing
or experiencing is a manifestation like a sun and its rays so the realities read the sun and what
rays represent are a manifestation so you cannot imagine a sun ray without a sun you have to have a
sun to have a sun ray you know and that's ray of sun or the light of sun kind of is manifesting the
attributes of the reality which is the sun you know but it is manifesting that you know so you can
think of the entire universe as a giant mirror which is reflecting the attributes of God so anything
for example for whatever for anything to for you to understand it has to have two concepts number one
does it exist number two what what what what what it actually it is yeah query what are these attributes
it so the very existence of a thing you know is also coming from an outside source so that thing cannot
exist without an outside source because that's a dependent existence and the attribute that thing
has are also coming from so there is inherent what we call poverty in in other things that my existence
or existence of our of a mountain or a tree or in the entire universe is dependent on something else
you know and what attributes I have are also dependent on that outside source you know so
so let's say the majesty of a mountain looks majestic huge powerful you know but is manifesting the
the grandeur of god in them or a beauty of a flower you know looks very pretty you know want to
pick it up and a better fly but its existence and the attribute that it is manifesting
represent us and highly now these become perfected or sort of more most prominent in humanity you know
human beings are those who can manifest that divine spark the most you know so there's
the makeup of humanity human being as sort of understood through Islamic spiritual perspective is
that there's a divine would equal rule or spirit or divine spark that all of us have it in and then
there's a soul or nuffs and then there's a physical body or just so they're really a three components
to it not necessarily two there's a divine spark the divine soul that is sort of a you can say
a you know manifestation of god that is with us and then and then there's a metaphysical aspect of
what's called soul which gives us individuality which which makes one from different from the other
that are soul and then we all carry a physical body to manifest that soul so that's how you know
and then since humans can have that divine spark that you know that manifests most of the gods
attributes that's why we can humans can in and manifest the the mercy and the kindness and the
and the justice and the so a knowledge you know and rationality the biggest I guess gift to
humanity is the rashada you have rationality that's why you're different from animals you know you can
do things that animals cannot do you know so now so that's and that's why we you know when we say
we see god you know or the journey towards god you know really god is within us you know we don't
have to go out there to to get to god it's already within and so there's a spiritual teacher Sheikh
Padallah he says just you know arrive at which you already are so here it was the god but arrive
at where you already are you just have to realize yet you're ready at home you know stop being
attached to the other stuff you know and then just focus internally and you're already at home you know
right so the to answer your question how this relationship work now it can be you can say that
there are different levels of existence there is god and there's world of let's say intellect so
one of angels and world of souls and then you get to the material world so there's a different
levels of existence but it can best be I think understood to an analogy and I read in a book
you know which actually started one of my first you know inspirations to a spirituality is a book
called light within me you know and it is available on internet and it I think is compiled by
somebody has compiled them and it's written by three authors one is a philosopher from this era called
Al-Alamatabad the baiyis was in Iran there's another person called Murtazam with the hadith also
Islamic spoiler you know written many books and the third one you you may be familiar with but
maybe surprised to hear his name he's actually Imam Fomani you know the leader of the Islamic revolution so
he was a you know actually a philosopher and mystic as well you know so he gives this example in the
book and this book is about you know spiritual Islamic spirituality and nothing the wijia
products is just about spirituality and you know somebody compiled their three booklets of these
is a small book you know and then put in in one format called light within me so he describes this
example as what is the relationship between god and creation and he says take the example of a sea
and its way in so the reality is the sea and the waves are manifestation of the sea you know and
waves have really no inherent existence without the sea you know you cannot imagine a sea wave without
a sea you know and and waves are just coming into existence and then disappearing and then the
more coming and this is how creation is so reality is god what is actually the only reality that
exists god is the only reality that actually is alive you know has the real attributes and everything
else is a manifestation of it just like a sea wave you know so that's I think a good way of at
least that's what satisfies me of way of understanding how that that relationship exists between the
bigger reality so in the way we are all connected to that sea so we all are different manifestations
of that sea right at different points so we are in a way connected to that larger sea but we
each have a unique manifestation so each each that's also an interesting point that each one of us
each one of us billions about is a unique manifestation god that's I mean the the immensity of the creation
that every one of us is unique in our DNA in our physical appearance even the voice or voice is unique
you know so that is I mean they're so remarkable that somehow the creation is so you know there's no
limit to it so diversified that each one of us is a unique manifestation of god and you know
just like god is the first and the last the very first and the one of one of us the very first and the
last in the same way each one of us is the very first manifestation of us and the last but there's
never going to be there's never been a Jared born before and there's never going to be a Jared
born again you know you're I mean you are unique in the history of existence you know there's never
been a person named like you with your background with your attributes who has ever existed and there's
never going to be another person like you who would ever exist so each one of us is unique in in this
journey of you know of existence wow that's that's so powerful and another reflection of
you know just the are sort of fractal nature of a sort of a representation of god you the beginning
in the end there's only one of us that ever has or ever will exist and that's such an unbelievable
parallel you know one of the things I I wanted to ask based on I was talking about sort of us is a
ripple of a wave in the ocean and of course there has no meaning without the ocean and think of ocean
as sort of the feel do you think that it's possible that there is a conscious morphogenic feel that is
because in your book I resonated with something that I've always thought you know which which is sort of
the lack of experimental proof of macro jumps of species and it's sort of observational as you
explain it's we're kind of taking what we know about micro evolution the obvious empirical facts of
you know those micro shifts and it's just sort of applying that on on a macro level just because we
see certain timelines necessarily mean one came from the other you know it or that they literally
evolve from the same origin of species but more different time periods of those species sort of
prominence now I'm curious is I've always wondered you know is is there perhaps the the creative force
because I don't think evolution or some form of evolution disproves god because I I agree what you
said in the book which what I've always thought which is that what if that is the creative process of
god is the constant never ending perpetual creation whether it's a universe down to a species and
do you think it's possible there is sort of a morphogenic feel that as we see in quantum physics you
know it's sort of in this sort of superposition state but there is sort of if you ever looked into
Fredrico fagine the micro chip inventor who wrote a book on consciousness called irreducible you know
there's a free will behind this field and what he believes in what he is I think largely proven
and that's why there's the uncertainty right is it's not predictable there is a free will
and I don't know if that's a fingerprint of god or or potentially a manifestation of god but I
think that from my feeling is that perhaps we are in this field that guides are bodily systems in
our evolution like as you talked about earlier what keeps our you know molecules together why is
there even a blueprint of this atom plus this atom plus this atom they're going to come together and
have these new properties you know and what what is that blueprint and this sort of field that we're in
and it could that perhaps be what guides the evolution of a system of a certain being because there
is a blueprint in this field that is co-hearing that being into existence and it's kind of has the
subtle blueprint for how that can evolve and develop does that make sense do you have any
thoughts on that kind of thought process of a field basis of consciousness yeah so question is
what is consciousness is it is it only humans who are conscious are animals also conscious are
plants also conscious what about rock is a rock also conscious of madness so question is what what
is the degree of conscience so again it comes back to the primary concept from philosophy which is
about existence you know existence is the most basic concept about anything you know you can have
that it exists you know because you cannot discuss non-existence you know something doesn't
exist you know cannot exist as existence where things start and and things have degrees of existence
and and the higher existence have higher consciousness and then lower existence have lower consciousness
so even let's say a pebble or a rock you know if it exists then it should have a degree of consciousness
you know if it's coming from the same source you know now the degree of consciousness may be very
able you know but it if it exists then it should have a degree of consciousness now the this is a
again as famous statement in Quran we say is that you sub beholding lahim afe sama matama mafeleurs
that whatever is in the heavens in the earth places the garden and you don't understand their praise
so everything in a way is conscious you know and have a degree of awareness so what is conscious
just being aware of yourself and your self that's the simplest way of describing consciousness that
you are aware that you exist and you are aware of your surroundings now how you manifest is depends
on your attributes so if you are a plant you can grow if you're an animal you can walk around you know
but if you're a human you can do other things you know but if you're a pebble you just know that you are
there but that's all you can understand that you have limited understanding but you know that you
exist even an ant you know so an ant has a has consciousness you know they have qualities they have
you know societies that they live and they make you know they're wonderful structures and you know
they plan and they so cannot expect that from an unconscious being that the being does not understand
what's going on of course they understand what's going on and they're operating in the realm of
existence you know that's why they're doing it you know that's their lifespan maybe a few days few
hours few minutes or a few months but they're so everything is conscious and and and and it's met
so question is what brings that consciousness what is that you know makes them conscious so is it
the the molecules or the the atoms that that they're made up of or is there something else
and that's I think where the concept of the soul at the higher levels of existence come that
really the consciousness come from that aspect of existence and this is a you can say a
a zone of format of manifesting that attributes of a soul that we live in that zone of existence
in which things are made up of matter you know and matter is made up of these atomic particles or
subordinal particles so it has to have that from so from an ant or a cockroach or a plant it has
to be made up of that material can say the basic building block of life in in this is this can say
zone of existence on this dimension of existence so it has to have that out of costume and now to
manifest it itself you know otherwise you you cannot perceive it and it has to be able to
manifest itself so I don't know if that answer part of the question and the question was how does
that evolution kind of happens so so I know if I say there's a lot of people going to criticize
are you a doctorate don't believe in afflictions I'm not so I don't believe in evolution of
it happens all the time in my clinic and then you give a medicine people you come resistant so
they have evolved but is there empirical evidence that thing one thing made from the other I mean
we basically lacking that evidence because things happen over millions of years so it's
you have to come with a better level of evidence to show that but the if you can maybe repeat part
of the questions and maybe yeah yeah for sure and specifically whether it's whether consciousness
can be a source from a field and if that field is what guides the a biogenesis or even just the
development of a species is it possible that it's a field guiding that behavior which is the
consciousness if you want. Yeah so the idea is that that consciousness or that biological form that
you get comes from in outer source like it and it could you can call it a field and what is field
maybe field is a manifestation of a soul or a spirit or something you know that is coming from that
you know realm of existence or that level of existence but it is you have to I think we have to
have two entities put together to make think like a material aspect of reality and a metaphysical
reality and I think it my understanding is it it it provides this this this model of existence
provides everything not just human body but even a plant or an animal that there are two levels
of existence. For example it may be easier to understand in a concept human body that the
there's a concept of human soul as not something which it comes from outside and gets attached
to a body and then you have a sort of a you know symbiosis of that. There is a concept that explained
by Muldersadar Auzah you know 400 year old philosopher from Iran you know very well known in that
circle that the soul is really a is an has an advent from the physical and then becomes more metaphysical
that due to some divine spark the material being manifests the soul and now that existence
survives as a body soul unity. There are two things that are held together but soul is actually
something which is manifesting from the body and then it's maintaining the body you know that
it has inherent properties of let's say growth and movement and that's that's why the body grows
and moves you know and then its rationality comes into so your human being becomes rational and you
start because your child is not rational eventually you know it requires rationality and you know
so and then and the soul continues to mature you know and then eventually it it has less attention
on the physical body that's why aging starts you know that's why you're you're starting right here
and you discard a physical physical physical body starts to decline because now soul is less
and less dependent on the body because it is falling its natural path of returning to an
another realm of existence and eventually when it just detaches from the body that's when death
happens and that's why you see the body starts to disintegrate completely immediately you know
you know that soon after that the body within days and weeks is gone because it disintegrates
so what was keeping the thing together and functional was that that manifestation of the soul
on the physical body now coming time that to did that process I mean that did the evolution process
was guided by that yeah I mean I of course if that's how things are like if there's a biological
murder of existence then this process has to be guided and and really did these things arrive at
discrete intervals or evolved from each other if they evolved from each other did the soul also evolve
so I don't know the answers to that question you know how did that why did we have a basic level
of organisms and then a higher level of organisms and then you know the bipylohomo sapiens and
homo erectus why did things evolve in a in a in a in a stepwise fashion you know and if they
did the evolved as a fashion was this process guided and what is the role of soul in this all this
you know so I mean appears that you we have to have two to for it to work you know it cannot just
be material being manifesting you know into a next next species right yeah reminds me of the
concept of subtle bodies you know if you're familiar with those traditions as well that there is
of course the you know the physical that the mental plane the astral plane and there's different
sort of layers to our existence and into our energy bodies and I think it's cool at quantum
physics it's showing in predict particularly dr. Joe dispenses work in doing a lot of research on
the energy centers of our bodies in like our terroidal field that is measurable you know depending
on people's brainwave states or their state of health so I think we're seeing that we we have
an existence that's becoming empirical that extends certainly beyond beyond our body and one
thing I've been very curious to actually ask you from the book is speaking on this sort of a bio
genesis you because you mentioned homo erectus and and and so on and so forth I read that you
in regards to Adam that that you think potentially according to other leading scholars that
it might have been created somewhere else and and then brought here and that just triggers my
Anunnaki you know type of a whole dot process so I'd love to get a little more insight on on
that yeah so so traditions are not very clear on it this is what I understood but if you take that
concept then we all of us are aliens you know you know we're right and then living here but but
yeah it's the the story describes in the Quran that kind of similar to why Bible that you know
Adam and the Eve that they were created and then when there was a sort of a so Adam went near a tree
and then was not supposed to go near a tree then was asked to go down to earth you know so they
was a change in status so they were in a in a garden you know the not necessarily heaven that we
talked about afterlife but they were in a garden you know and then they had a nice life there and
but then you do some but it was kind of with design because this this was not likely
necessarily a punishment punishment there was just time to go there that's where the earth was
created so that you can grow there and grow your soul and mean you know reach your perfection so
it was just time for that and and then they went and there was asked to go down and then it was
it was they say that you have a stay in this in this earth for a limited period of time and
provision so it appears that either they it was we're coming from a different realm of existence and
then now stationed here for a period of time and then we supposed to return back or he was created
in a in a zone at which they were at certain conditions but was asked to sort of leave that zone
and exist in like within earth there was a zone and he was supposed to live there and then was
asked to leave that zone and go out to the natural world and you know explore so this I think I don't
know if there's any clear answer to this but but that's what my understanding is maybe most likely he
was existing a different zone of existence and and why he came here and I mean there is a I mean
there's some you can say co-operative answers like why do we age you know like as if we are don't
belong here you know we have to leave you know so we spend time but it's kind of you're not designed
for this place you know that's why we age and we die and we have to leave or I mean there's
something to it I don't know the exact answer to what the true answer is but that's one of the
explanations I give that could be the case that the the Adam the prototype human being was in a
different zone of existence of was brought here you know to experience this this zone of existence
and then there were other traditions that they were other sort of humanoid before the Adam came
you know so it's not that we can say well we have forces going back you know thousands of years or
in hundreds of thousands of years so Adam's story doesn't add up you know it doesn't go that
stretched out for you know but somebody was asking you know one of our moms that who was before Adam
he said there was another Adam so there are cycles to it you know you know and we are in one of those
cycles and I said are the last cycle would there be other cycles I don't know I think we don't have
the complete picture but there are cycles that things go and start and stop and then
things go and start and stop you know so we are we are experiencing a limited zone of of
reality you know and and our time frame is very short actually you know there's the earth is
way you know has much longer history you know billions of years and awesome no I appreciate that
I'm sure of course you can't you know tell me for a fact what happened because none of us really know
but no but that but that but that's super insightful and one thing I was following up on which is a
bit more philosophical on the Adam point is why do you think when it comes to omniscience and
the nature of God is inherently the all knowing there is no piece of knowledge that it can fundamentally
cannot have as the as the ultimate existence so why why do you think or how do you think that God
can create an Adam for example knowing that they will you know bite the apple quote unquote have
the temptation and and screw up for lack of better words it's sort of reconciling the all knowing
why even do that if you know that that's going to happen in the first place like it's a surprise
what's kind of your thought process and intuition around that yeah I think I think maybe the big
question is about the concept of free will and predestination like if everything is only
destined or do we have any free choice in it so there are different ways of analyzing this and then
I think from the Adam story I think it was they were destined for this zone of existence so I don't
think there's any because of that whatever mistake or whatever error they did they got here I think
they were destined for that that was a design and there was a way of doing it and maybe that's how it
manifested or we could have manifested in a different way but the coming to earth I think was
kind of destined it was not something that happened as sort of a punishment or you know something
that it is that it was something destined but the bigger question now can now know that we are here
if for example God knows somebody is going to commit murder you know God already knows that you know
then why does it let it happen you know why is there no stop to these things you know so there there is
the fact that I know something does not necessarily mean I have to it I want that thing to happen as
well so for example if the way of knowing is that the reason I know what's coming tomorrow is because
I for me the time doesn't apply on sort of outside the time zone so I already know that tomorrow
this is what's going to happen you know so my that sort of my my wavelength of knowledge or my
stretch of knowledge is not limited by time ours is you know we are limited by time we cannot know
or we don't know what happens you know what will happen tomorrow and that's interesting for us otherwise
you know it would be very boring you know if you already know what's coming next year very fun yeah
you're like I know I'm going to ask if there's a motivation to wait enough if you're like so so it's
it's it's in our benefit that we don't know we don't have the full picture you know but for
from God is kind of outside that system you know it's not really in that system so it's not limited
by the system I can say and so that's why it has the knowledge of things so having knowledge of
thing not necessarily does mean that he also wants that things to happen what he has done is there is a
you know there's a basic design in which we can operate you know for example we are bounded by
certain limitations we have to have a day and night we have to fall asleep we have to ease so there
are certain framework in which we can operate we cannot go beyond that framework for example we cannot
choose who our parents are going to be you know that's not part of or if I would have an inherent
ability or disability I necessarily don't have that you know say in that that you know I would be
by sharp or intelligent and I'm an extraordinary skill of this versus I have a limitation you know I
cannot see properly I cannot walk properly so so those limitations are notness those fundamental
things are not within our control door kind of given to us which culture we've gone into which
family we've gone into those are already kind of you know built in for us however that does not
mean we don't have any free well you know we we have a intellect and we have a way of analyzing
things and we have choices to make you know we can either choose to do this or choose to do that you know
this this is of course if this wasn't the case then it you know it doesn't make sense for us to
get any reward or punishment or have any spiritual growth or spiritual retardation you know because
really the reward and punishment is is notness you know it's basically what happens to your soul so
if you do something good your soul should grow and more enlightened and you know and that's what
you experience in the afterlife that you are a mature soul you know you're lived a good life on
the other hand if a person makes lots of mistakes they're kind of really damaging themselves you know
before damaging anybody else you know they and then they have a more restricted retarded soul you
know and it's more enamelistic and less human less sort of you know more less sublime soul and then
that's what their experience of our life would be so really the afterlife of concept is how you have
develop your soul so if you have matured your soul and you know if you have enlightened in then your
afterlife experience kind of is going to be also pleasant you know on the other hand if you have
really not looked after your soul you have damaged it you have you know made a lot of corruption
and that sort of quote unquote sin you know the concept of sin that you know if you have lied you
cheated you know you've been rude to others you know so your you know your soul is kind of in that
sense so right now the so you have choices then you can make a free because if there was no free will
then this you it doesn't make it it appears unfair why somebody's wretched and why somebody's
blessed you know because you have to have a free well you know now but there are limits to it you know
how much you can do it how much you cannot so not everything is is under our control so
something I can do whatever I want to know no you have limitations you cannot you cannot you cannot
it so there's a man again came to him amaliyah I think you might have read in the book then ask
I love this I love this quote yes and he said you know is is it all under my control or is do I have
of already everything is already destined for me he said you know lift up your one leg you know he
said yeah I can do that so now lift up your other leg also well I cannot look at it you cannot
lift to the same time so he said yeah it means that you have a degree of control but there are
limitations to it so so in this way I think the way I describe is or I understand is that
what choices come to our way may not necessarily be in our control but what we choose from those
choices is under our control you know although there is a dynamic reality that if you make correct
choices then more important good choices open up for you and if you make wrong choices then more
wrong choices open for you for example somebody drinks and then they start to drive then they open
themselves to these possibilities of hazard to themselves and to the others and you know so because
you make that too wrong choice whatsoever you drag and you know or you drag yourself and then you
started driving you made two wrong choices and now the possibilities open up for you or a person
says no I'm going to remain sober or even if I drink I'm not going to drive I'm going to you know
have my kuala uber or something or get my friend so now you have opened another set of choices for
yourself so I think that's I think how free will and predestination works that you have choices but
that you decide which one you want which we want to go and then that can then open up other choices
for you so it's like a very dynamic reality that is you're kind of writing your will as you're
as you're doing things you know but again within a certain framework you cannot be everything
and all times and be every place now you cannot you're not only person you're not only person
right everywhere so we have certain framework in which we have to operate but then within that
framework like for example our family and our basic tendencies basic you know inclinations so
everybody has a certain inclination certain interests you somebody's an artist they have that's
what they want to do somebody's a mathematician so they have everybody has a different inclination
and interest so you operate based on that basic programming that you've been done into you but after
that is for you what you make of it in awesome now I love that it sounds like we it's as you said it's
an interplay and it's almost like we're provided sort of the bumper lanes that we get to play in
you know because we can't just say I'm gonna fly right my my will is to fly you know there's
ours you know Imam Ali said you know pick up your second foot now and it's okay I can't do that
because that device gravity right we we have gravity you know but I'm gonna fall so there's certain
limitations and perhaps you know we are placed in those certain simmits situations of whether it is
how we're brought up whether it is challenges that are thrown our way in our lives to give us that
unique experience here on earth to develop our soul in a certain way that's sort of you know outline
for us and we kind of fill it in you know with our choices in the subsequent possibilities that follow
so that that that really resonates with me now one one one last question here before we wrap up
is on a more of a meta level in relation to Islam you know I if I should say on maybe on a personal
level if I might say so myself one of the main problems I've had wouldn't say problems but
phones to pick with traditional mainstream religions is sort of the the level of constrictiveness
around the belief system where it's like well if you don't adopt this then everyone else de facto
is going to the not good place after this and I think one of the things and please correct me if
I'm wrong I read one of the couple of the verses that were in the the book and it was explaining how
you know Islam acknowledges Jesus acknowledges Moses Noah and it's not this either or or conflict
it's more of just that as you said the latest OS you know it's the it's the latest most up-to-date
teaching but doesn't necessarily nullify everything before they're from the same lineage and I just
wanted to inquire from someone that's extremely knowledgeable on this is am I correct in saying that
the people who worship you know God in the Christian faith let's say if they live with the right
intent you know obviously doing good with the right intent not for self-aggrandizement pride riches
whatever it might be that and they truly do operate towards the higher power and seek that the
year after and they follow those principles and they are you know seeking the one God however they're
part of the Christian faith am I correct in saying that that the Islamic faith still believes that they're
judged you know right to sleep based on those acts or is it you have to be Islam quote-unquote yeah
so I think the answer is that I would say another analogy is to see at what level of what what what
are you working with so think of say somebody has a done a high school you know you know that's what
their level of education is so they should be quizzed about their high school course you know so they
cannot be given a PhD to solve you know you're you're gonna say the same exam as a PhD you know in
mathematics is gonna do no I'm done then high school mathematics so quiz me about that on the other
hand somebody's and college level maths somebody's and PhD so everybody would be my this is what my
understanding is would be judged based on what they have done you know and what they work they
operated in you know cannot ask somebody to questions about why did you do not do that when you
were not sort of qualified for that you know so now from its life perspective there is there is a
sequence of of these revelations which are all to guide the humanity know to our the
purpose and meaning of life you know and and then as the humanity's consciousness is evolved the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
ideology has evolved and you know to to so the people can reach their perfection the best they can
now the expectation from my understanding is is that people should adopt Islam because that's
that's where humanity conscious that's where you can have the best chance of developing your soul
now a person that's if who is not born in that fate and it's not you know too familiar with it
doesn't feel compatible with it doesn't feel familiar with it doesn't necessarily
resend it to adopt that you know but they still want to you know be a good person from their
perspective and you know do things as they think so I think they work they choose they'd make their
choice you know I have this path of Islam that I can follow follow that ideology but at the same time
you know I don't think so I'm ready for that right now you know I or maybe I that's not I'm compatible
with I would rather follow this other ideology but whichever is going to be a Christian could be
Jewish could be Buddhist you know whatever you want to follow then then you know you you you you
that's your choice that you admit that which what what do you want to do with that you know so if you
want to let's say again not trying to win any condescending way but if you want to operate with nine
you know windows 96 or MS doors or that's what you want to work that's the features you're going to get
you know that's the application you have whereas if you want to say now I want to try some other things
then you know so I think that's a matter of choice so the real I think the problem maybe in my mind
people who can get into trouble is people who kind of know what is right but still don't want to
adopt that you know so say if somebody has has an has a clear clarity in their mind that this is
the right ideology or this is the right way I should be following and they're very clear about that
but there's certain things that are preventing them for example my girlfriend doesn't agree with
this or my dad is going to be upset with this or I don't want to drink drink a give up alcohol because
that's what I so now you're the cause of your whatever personal choice you know you are or
personal as a restriction you are avoiding something which you think is true so I think that
may be cause of disadvantage for that person no because now your your idea is to follow the truth path
so if something is become clear to you this is the truth path but because of your own either bias or
any limitations you don't want to step into that zone then I think that may be a disadvantage for
that person because on the other hand somebody is not clear about it that's if they never came across
Islam or they never really understood the ideology or they so you cannot be quizzed about something
which you don't know him cannot be answered we ask something which you have not literally
now really understood or not really developed into a not have not found it to be true yet then you
know I don't think a person can be answered a question about that but on the other hand if you
somebody has already reached that level of conviction or understanding or it's very clear to them
what is what is the better path or what is I think it may be more suitable for my spiritual growth
but because of their personal limitation or challenge or habit they decide not to do it then I
think they'd be at a level of disadvantage so the expectation again you know is that people should
be following Islam because that's the most updated version of that same religion that has been
going on it's not a different religion is coming is the same religion we just trying to guide him
and he should different different you know ideologies and this is the up to date and you should
and of course they could be understand okay I understand this part but these parts I don't understand
or I don't agree with that or I it doesn't make sense to me when you know that's inquiry and you
know that happens a lot of Muslims as well that you know they're already Muslim but they don't
may not necessarily agree with one thing or the other and because some things are more at scholarly
level and are more sort of on a discussion level but I think at the basic you know operation for
or basic lifestyle for a for a Muslim believe it things are more or less you know clear that you
know you're supposed to have this belief in God and afterlife and then you know follow a regiment
you know of prayer and charity and being good to neighbors and you know which kind of is common in
in most religions not necessarily a different although it may be more regimented I think what I like
about Islam is that it has very guideline driven you know oncology we also very guidelines that tell
us what to do in on this so Islam is very guideline driven that you know you're supposed to wake up at
this time you're supposed to go to bed at this time you can eat this you cannot eat that so it kind of
already lays out for you know you just have to fly it on your liking sure well I think the very last
question I have is to follow that up here and and we'll wrap up today is so if they're all ultimately
going after the same God so that's an interesting kind of point in the in the Son of Line of Logic as well
if Islam does acknowledge Jesus and Christianity as valid and ultimately they're still going after
the same ultimate being which is God and they're still pointing in that direction and they have
similar virtues of you know charity and in all these types of things you know is it necessarily
disadvantage to be part of let's say Christianity or or no religion at all let's say someone is
yeah I mean I would say even more towards myself though I very strongly resonating was impacted by
you know a lot of the verses that you had in your book from the Quran that really resonate with me
on so many so many levels but you know I would say that someone like myself who truly does follow those
that degree of virtue and character and and and ethic and charity and and goodwill and good
intention and and I do absolutely believe in a supreme creator being and I think that they all
obviously all these you know traditions have so much wealth of knowledge and wisdom to apply to
the life you know and I don't want to make it necessarily me-centric but maybe before the listener
you know but might be kind of more of that spiritual angle which I know you wrote about in the book
as well the shift from organized religion to spiritual but the numbers have really gone down
for the amount of people who still believe in a and the God let's say so you know well it's what's
kind of your thought process you know on us all kind of pointing to the same supreme being if you will
yeah I think the also the the label of for example I have a label that I'm a Muslim and you may have
a label your a Christian again this is that we have given ourselves you know but you have to see
things from God's perspective who really thinks is is is most most Muslim believe but I think the
fundamental the things that I understood from reading Quran is that you person the the the sort of
the afterlife or the life after death is dependent on two things one is you have to have faith you
know you have to acknowledge that there's a higher power and you have to acknowledge that there is
an afterlife I think that's where things start you know so you know which happens I guess same
in Christianity as well that you know you believe in a you know Christians also believe in a
higher being or a God and they also believe in an afterlife so that's that's I think the foundation
where things start so if somebody does not has not reached that level of commission then I think
they have a different path you know so what happens with them I think God decides what happens with
them but because you're already denying a reality the biggest reality is God you say no I right with
it and then you're also denying afterlife so I mean if you're denying afterlife that you know you
should really not be expecting anything you know they're right yeah I know so you know what's
complaining you know you already said there's nothing so so so once you acknowledge that then each
I think each community a group have been given an ideology and a path that they're supposed to
follow and how well somebody follows that I think they should be judged based on that that's again my
perspective but but again I think once the the for the whole system to work or again they're my
understanding is that the expectation is that people should lean towards more Islamic or that's the
most updated ideology if somebody choose not to do that and they want to follow another path but
they still believe in God the spirit of afterlife they're still doing things morally they may be
I don't know Grace does it Muslim you know that they're they have the same belief that there's a God
there's afterlife yes they may not have done the five prayers that they may not have done you know but
but you know Islam has a particular you know tenons that somebody has to follow like the the salat
they're the prayer and they go for a high so I think yeah without a ignore I think that maybe the
bigger question is do do somebody acknowledge does somebody acknowledge prophet Muhammad and Quran
as valid source of guidance you know is Quran a valid sort of book of guidance and if is prophet
Muhammad the the the true messenger or you know somebody who's been sent by God if somebody says yes
to these questions then I think in a way technically they're already Muslims you know they're
all you acknowledge that Quran is the word of God and or at least it has truth in it you know I you
know I relate to that that this appears true to it be and then prophet Muhammad from whatever it
about him is appears to be right spiritual person likely a prophet of God you know then in a way you're
acknowledging that you're a Muslim but on the other hand if somebody is say that no I don't think so
that prophet all does a true prophet or you know I you may be a spiritual person but may not be
divine yes but only we have a different that somebody has a different interpretation of his personality
or of this book then technically they are cannot be labeled as Muslims you know they are not listening
so I think that's with a distinction would come and and then based on that and what you do with it you know
you know so if you're a Muslim I think maybe the expectations are higher from that person so as a Muslim
you should be more spiritual or more mindful because you have a more you can say evolved or complex
guideline driven you know that in Overseas so you actually you should be you know have more
expectation from either you do better you know whereas if somebody you know does not adopt that you
know they have a different path so I think the the question of judgment I want to stay out of that
because it's not my job to judge anybody because that's God job we judge that you know and you know
and person so I don't necessarily want to step into God's zone and say well you know you know that's
how you know judge but but but I think that's my vantage point or perspective is that expectation
is to follow this law because that's the the the the the the latest version of the same operating
system that's out there and and then if you follow then you'll see the benefits of that on there then
if somebody chooses not to follow that then that's their choice that they have made it. Sure
awesome why I'd love to conclude with one of the verses so just wrap that up that you included in
the book relating to this topic surely those who profess to believe in Islam and those who follow
the Jewish faith the Christians and the Savians who's ever whoever of these truly beliefs in God
and the last day in Acts righteously shall have their reward with the Lord and shall have nothing
to fear nor shall they grieve. Yeah that kind of summarizes that's it it's say the truth that you
have to believe in God and you have to believe in afterlife these are two things and then you follow
back so and then how would you be judged that's you know that's up to God how would I be judged
you know because they know everybody has to go through the the process of you know judgment and then
what you what you knew and based on that what you did you know so actually having knowledge is not
necessarily it means a good thing but as also your responsibility goes up you know you say what can I
I've got to be scrutinized more thoroughly you know so but yeah that I think that summarizes that
statement you know that believe the basic the the the the the things where it started is that you
have to believe in God and you have to believe in afterlife and then what path you choose to follow
you know awesome well Dr. Jeffrey thank you so much for all of your time and insights today has been
such a pleasure and and I truly do appreciate you coming on I'd love just to wrap up by telling
our listeners if you have any links any places you want them to visit work and we find you work and
we learn more I'm of course going to link everything in the bio for the audience but just a quick
second if you want to share yeah so there is a these two books God and God of Science came in 2018
and it's available in on Amazon and also 40 spiritual dues for the journey of life from al-Quran is
also available on Amazon for God and God of Science actually there's a documentary two hour
documentary for the first book you know which kind of dwells into the most of the book is available
on YouTube I think and the channel God signs one and then and then the other videos also in that
channel so you can do Google that and should be able to find under my name and then if you want
to reach out to me you can maybe know down my email address is s as in sand h as in hairy
hot as in robberton jafi j a f r i so s h r jafi at hardmail dot awesome doctor jafi well thank you so
much once again it was such a pleasure and uh yeah absolutely we'll we'll get this uh get this
published here and uh and uh we'll be in touch soon good luck thank you bye bye awesome thanks
doctor jacquery bye bye thank you for tuning into this episode of the quantum theory podcast
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