1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,800 That's a conversation rather than a demand. 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:08,480 And it surfaces what could be a clerical error and opportunity or a miscommunication. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,960 If I am a leader, I am an executive. 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:17,440 Part of my role is how do I make it easier for other people to raise those issues? 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:23,120 We might be missing out on promotion, then money, and all kinds of things in our life 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:24,640 that we otherwise wouldn't have. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,960 There's that self-sensoring of "I don't want to be to this or to that" or "I've particularly 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,280 as other people, you know, even if you said something," sometimes it's like the conversation just 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,560 moves on and you're left there thinking, "Did I actually say that out loud? 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,760 Let's just start with eliminate the things that should have been in email anyways because the gift 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:44,960 exists for a reason." 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,360 How we differentiate ourselves from the technology is actually our humanity. 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,680 So how do we bring more of that back? 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:57,040 Particularly when the technology means that we lose some of that social connectivity, 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:05,200 the warmth, the humor, the awkwardness that makes us human and also makes us connect as people. 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:13,120 Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast. 17 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,160 Elaine, you had such a diverse background. 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,560 You've been a lecturer at Harvard Law School. 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,280 You've been a manage partner at TRIOD Consulting Group. 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,720 Can you share a little bit about some pivoting moments in your career that shapes your professional 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:29,600 journey? 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,520 Absolutely. Well, first of all, I'm so delighted to be with Humilissa and with this community. 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:42,160 I think my career tracks most people's careers, which is very few of us end up doing exactly 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:43,280 what we thought we would do. 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:48,800 And it is that pivotal moment of choosing what's the next thing I'm going to try. 26 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,760 Or even if my life does not look like what I thought it would look like, 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,560 maybe it's even better. 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,680 And so I went to Harvard Law School fully intending to be a litigator. 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,160 I was one of those per-coast children that said from the time I was 11 that I was going to be a lawyer. 30 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:10,800 Found out that law was not actually for me, but discovered negotiation theory in pedagogy. 31 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,160 How do you actually communicate? 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,600 How do you negotiate with, and this like, light bulb moment of, 33 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,440 wait, you can actually negotiate because that's not how I was brought up, right? 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,360 Children should be seen and not heard. 35 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,360 You should defer to your elders. 36 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:24,640 You can actually negotiate. 37 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:25,920 You can have an opinion of your own. 38 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:29,040 Mind blown novel idea. 39 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,200 I pivoted into this thing that I didn't know what it was called, but apparently it's called 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:34,240 leadership development. 41 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:39,440 As I was teaching concepts out of the Harvard negotiation project for more than a decade, 42 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,360 realized I think there's something missing here. 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,400 And so accidentally became an author of this book, "Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully." 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:59,120 And so I'm looking forward to the next chapters that are professional adventures I never would have 46 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,400 trumped up, but that when I look back, I can see how I picked up the different skills that's 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,200 along the way to be awesome at what I do. 48 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:15,840 First of all, I love your book and I want to hear a little bit about what inspired you to write 49 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:21,680 "Unlearning Silence." Was it an experience? Was it a situation? 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,560 Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you wrote "Unlearning Silence?" 51 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,080 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's both professional and personal. 52 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,080 So I'm the youngest daughter of an immigrant family from Taiwan to the United States. 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,720 I share that because often as an immigrant, you're just trying to simulate. 54 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,360 You're trying to be accepted. As the youngest daughter, I was supposed to defer to my elders. 55 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,960 And of course, coming from a culture that is pretty patriarchal. 56 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,600 Meaning, my brother is more important and more valued than I am. 57 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:58,800 Boy is more important than girls. And so my job was to smile, stay silent, and serve. 58 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,240 And I think service is a good thing and can have shadow sides if misinterpreted. 59 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:11,120 So for a long time, I was that pretty quiet person who was great to work with because I kept my head down 60 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,200 and did good work and let other people take credit for my work. 61 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,840 And I got the same advice that I think many people get, which is if you're not being heard, 62 00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:23,680 you're not getting promoted, you're not getting what you want in life and in leadership, 63 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:30,160 you need to speak up more. Be more assertive. Be less assertive. Smile more, smile less. 64 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,200 And this is particularly gendered for people who present as female. 65 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:41,600 But as I as a leadership development person started to regurgitate that advice, 66 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,640 I thought there's something missing here. Because as we're talking about, you know, you need to 67 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,360 negotiate more. You need to go have the difficult conversation. You need to give or receive feedback. 68 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:57,200 I noticed a pattern that no matter how good the tools were, the training was, some people still 69 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,040 didn't negotiate. Some people still didn't have the difficult conversation. Some people still 70 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:06,080 wouldn't give or receive feedback no matter how much HR or their manager or the C-suite told them 71 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:12,560 they should and ask the question, what gives? And to me, the missing piece was silence. 72 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:18,800 In what ways have we learned to stay silent, been rewarded in our careers for staying silent, 73 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:25,040 not rocking the boat, right? Not pushing back, not being a stick in the mud, whatever framing you 74 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:31,200 want to use. And in what ways might even well intention leaders end up silencing the very people 75 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:37,040 they want to support. So we say my doors always open or tell me what you really think, but people 76 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:43,680 still wouldn't, still don't. And to me, that's that factor of silence that's interwoven and 77 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,840 implicated in all of our professional and personal relationships. So unlearning silence is really 78 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:56,000 looking at what role does silence play on my team, in my life and in my leadership, and how my 79 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,360 unlearning it, questioning those assumptions, noticing the dynamics changing our inputs, 80 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,760 unlock and unleash talent and potential in a whole new way. 81 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:12,000 Yeah, I think that's great. I think a lot of times the narrative that I used to play is like, 82 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,520 pick your battles. Be careful what you say. Don't appear too smart and nobody's going to like you 83 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,880 or don't seem dumb, then you know, you're not going to, so we have all these things kind of running 84 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,600 through our mind. Like if we're going to say something like we get the courage to say it, 85 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:33,280 and then we organize what we're going to say, and then like it just doesn't happen. So I see it a lot, 86 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:40,000 when I worked as an engineer a lot of times, you know, I had to sit in the back because I was younger, 87 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,640 and you know, I didn't know enough is everybody else. And you know, I'd raise my hand and they continue 88 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,200 to talk or yeah, I'm like, okay, that's not important. And I'd raise my hand and act, 89 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,720 meaning, and nobody, you know, slept me. So I think we also get trained, can we try and we try 90 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:03,680 and we try. And then nobody wants our opinion. And we're like, okay, well, they got it all figured out. 91 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Or if they don't want to hear from me, why should I keep trying? It's like, I'm banging my head 92 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,560 against a brick wall. And what you said there and shared there so beautifully, right? There's 93 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:19,600 that self-sensoring of I don't want to be to this or to that, or I've got to, it's got to be a certain 94 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:26,720 way, particularly if you're the only of any identity or new in a room or more junior, it's easy to 95 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,240 discount yourself, particularly as other people, you know, even if you said something, sometimes it's like 96 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,040 the conversation just moves on, and you're left there thinking, did I actually say that out loud? 97 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:43,680 Because everyone's acting like I didn't actually say anything. And so we really lose this sense of 98 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:51,520 value, right? Am I, am I, is it worth me being here? Do I have anything to offer and at least to 99 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:58,560 self-doubt and lack of self-confidence and really damaging self-image when I think there's contributions 100 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,480 from all sides, right? There's, am I doing that self-talk, self-sensoring? Let me be aware of that. 101 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:11,760 Is there actually anything I can change? And often in terms of mitigated speech, we as human beings 102 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:18,480 don't tend to be as clear as we think we are, right? So I'm thinking this is a horrible idea, this is 103 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,760 never going to work, we're not going to hit the deadline, but instead of saying that out loud, 104 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,640 because I worry about coming across to fill in the blank whatever way people might describe me, 105 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,520 or might fear being perceived, I ask a question, like, do you think this is going to work? 106 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,520 And the other people in the room are like, yeah, of course it's going to work, right? But there's a 107 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,080 huge difference between, do you think this is going to work? And what I'm really thinking in my internal 108 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,920 voice, which is hell no, this is not going to happen. And so in what ways do we dampen our own message 109 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:53,600 without even realizing it? And then there's other people's contributions of assumptions of if you're 110 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:59,680 more junior, your voice just doesn't have as much weight, or you need to raise your hand, do you 111 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:04,480 even need to raise your hand, right? There's all these embedded assumptions about how we work together 112 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:10,560 that contribute to who gets heard and who doesn't. Yeah, so true. And then, you know, I think about when 113 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:15,600 you finally get the courage, kind of a neck flare of that, you get the courage to speak up and 114 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,160 you're halfway through your sentence and somebody like, cuts you off right before you get your 115 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,800 point across. So people are like, oh, whatever she was saying is not valid, because you didn't get to your 116 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:32,240 yes point, process, fast enough. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, some actual, 117 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:38,560 like actual steps people can take if they're the ones that are being silenced or cut off or, you know, 118 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:43,440 now that we're all virtual, people raise their hand and people, you know, a lot of time say, I will 119 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,400 get you later, we'll get you later in a little later, come. So I want to hear a little bit from you 120 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:57,040 about some steps you can actually take to be heard and start that kind of collaborative communication 121 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:04,320 with your professional career, maybe even personal careers. Yeah, two things because we're all about 122 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,000 saving personal relationships as well. Those are sometimes the ones that keep us up at night, 123 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,360 even more than the work ones. So number one, I find that people really struggle with, what's that 124 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,480 initial moment? What do I actually say? Because I'm sitting in a meeting and I'm like, oh, that 125 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:27,200 doesn't work, but I don't, what do I actually say? And the sort of on tray phrase, I find really helpful, 126 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:33,440 particularly if you're going to disagree is, I see that differently. So different isn't your wrong, 127 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:40,000 I'm right, you're wrong, I'm good, you're bad, it's just different and difference exists in the 128 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,520 world and we know that and because we're different human beings, obviously we're going to see things 129 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:48,800 differently. But that phrase, I see things differently or I see it differently, and then you can 130 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:54,480 fill in the blank with whatever that actually is. And to me, that isn't combative, that's just like 131 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:00,720 sign posting, I see it differently, the statement of fact. So that gives you the, what's the first phrase? 132 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,600 If you can't even get there, you could even just go, oh, hold on, right, and hold on is again, 133 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,760 that's taking the ground, pause the conversation, yellow flag, we got to revisit this, whatever it is. 134 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:18,640 So hold on or I see it differently. The other thing can be really helpful in this conversation is 135 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:24,160 when I'm having a conversation with you, I don't really want to push back on you, right? I don't 136 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,880 want to play devil's advocate, even if someone's like, play devil's advocate, it feels relationally 137 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:35,840 awful to be against you. I want to be on the same team. And in the book, I talk about this is three 138 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,640 levers for voice, their substance, what we're talking about, there's relationship who's doing the 139 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:47,120 talking and then process, how we're communicating about it. And a big process move is using standard 140 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:54,160 questions. And so if on our team, every time we're talking about something, evaluating issue, we always 141 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,400 ask what are the pros, what are the cons? What about this works, what about this doesn't work, 142 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:04,640 what about this resonate, doesn't resonate? Those are the same boring old questions that are always 143 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,680 on the agenda. And it does a couple of things. It means I don't have to push back, means I don't 144 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:16,320 have to speak up because I just have to answer the agenda item questions. And it also means that if I 145 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:21,440 wire differently, which we can get into, some of us are post-processors, some of us are real time 146 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,560 processors, post-processors, meaning in the meeting, I can't quite figure out to say, but 20 minutes 147 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:31,120 after I've clicked out of zoom, I'm like, that's what I wanted to say. Okay, I'm seeing the head, 148 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:37,600 nod, the recognition, you're not alone. Oftentimes that feels like a weakness. And in a professional 149 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,600 world, it's characterized as a weakness. When it's really just a difference in wiring, some of us 150 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:49,680 communicate and process better than more we talk it out. Some of us we need that space in engineering 151 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:56,320 terms to cache and compile, right? We need to think and it comes to us. So instead of trying to make 152 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:03,760 everybody fit into this real time mode, what if we actually account for that difference in wiring? 153 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,120 And that standard question of, oh, I know it's going to be pros and cons. So I can sort of pre-process 154 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:15,840 also helps, but it also means that in the meeting, instead of just saying, all right, arbitrary 30-minute 155 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,640 meeting is over, we click out the decisions been made, whoever's owning the meeting can say, all right, 156 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:27,760 everybody sleep on it. As you post process, reply all on that email, or, you know, put it on that 157 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,560 slack thread and it does a couple of things. Number one, it normalizes that we're wired differently. 158 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:38,000 Number two, it means that people know, okay, I just have to reply all on that email because there's 159 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,120 that moment of paralysis if we've clicked out of the meeting particularly virtually. And I'm like, 160 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,760 oh, do I just text Melissa? Do I email her? Do I reply all and I can get overwhelmed by 161 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:57,520 the decision making of how I actually re-engage the conversation. But if I've made clear what the avenue 162 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:03,760 for continuing the conversation is, I've taken that labor off someone else's plate and increases 163 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,160 the likelihood they engage in the conversation. Yeah, and I also think, I don't know about you, but 164 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:17,200 in the world today, I say death by meetings, like there's so many meetings and more meetings and more 165 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:24,320 meetings. So before I show up, I like to know what we're talking about. Really? Before, yeah, right, 166 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,800 I could just say novel idea. All right, and I like to find out what we're talking about and what 167 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:39,440 the outcome of the meeting is. So I can prepare the right questions based on what the discussion is 168 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:45,840 going to be. And then while I'm in the meeting, I'm actively thinking about what's going on. And then 169 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,760 at the end of the meeting, if I didn't get what I need to get out, I often message people or say 170 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:59,920 things like, have you thought of this? Or I really liked your idea on that. We should also try this. 171 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:08,800 And I think it's just being organized and prepared sometimes and get, you know, get incompetence to do it. 172 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:15,520 I feel like it's a muscle. Once you figure out and you're on video, you're on camera and you're 173 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:23,200 actively engaged, I find a lot of times I'm on Zoom calls and like I could tell that like 20% of the 174 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:31,360 people are paying attention. And so you have the opportunity to really get your opinions across 175 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:38,000 if you're paying attention. Well, yes, to if you're paying attention. And also number one, should it 176 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:45,280 even be a meeting? Right, what is the purpose? If it's an update, if it's a unilateral update, 177 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,720 that can be a synchronous. And so let's just start with eliminate the things that should have been 178 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:57,360 in email anyways because the gift exists for a reason. Second, and I'll say this, especially knowing 179 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:03,600 who listens to this podcast, if you are a leader, formally or informally in an organization, 180 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:10,880 but particularly if you're an executive, what do your behaviors model? Because you have the power 181 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:17,520 and influence to cancel the meeting. To ask the question ahead of time to suggest maybe meet without 182 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,720 me because you want other people to brainstorm more freely without your influence in the room, 183 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,240 because they're more likely to be quiet if you're in the room and they're all waiting to see what 184 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:33,360 you're going to do. How do you you want to set the tone for how we operate spend our time and not 185 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:41,840 waste our time around here? Oh, I love it. And I think once you find that voice, you get more time 186 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:48,800 back in your day. I think we just show up and the day runs us instead of running our day. And I love 187 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:56,880 that you brought that up because I think that's so important. I've had recently somebody say, 188 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,400 why aren't you on this meeting? I'm like, because I don't have anything to contribute. It's not even in 189 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:09,280 my job description or a purview. And they're like, yeah, that's true. I'm like, okay, well, let's move on. 190 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:15,200 And so it's really important to manage your day and get your needs met because you could be sitting 191 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:23,360 on meetings that don't affect your day, but really understanding what your role is in sitting in 192 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:27,520 these meetings. Like, what are you contributing? Do they want you to contribute? Or is this just an 193 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:35,920 FYI? I'm like you said, if it's an FYI, send me an email. Was it a courtesy invite? Because particularly 194 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,400 if you're lower on the org chart, there can be a, I want to keep Melissa in the loop. I don't want 195 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:46,880 Melissa to be offended or feel left out. And you're like, leave me out of it because I hired good people 196 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,800 and I know you're more than competent, but there's that clarifying, what are we assuming about each other? 197 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:58,160 What do you mean by this invitation? Just because you included me on the invite doesn't mean I'm 198 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:04,640 promising to show up. And if you want me to show up, I need you to let me know what you're expecting 199 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,720 of me so I can be a value add, right? Make this worthwhile for everyone. 200 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:16,720 Yeah, and kind of pivoting this a little bit personally. I know a lot of people are working 201 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:24,000 remotely these days, artificial intelligence, doing a lot more things. I personally feel like 202 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,800 interpersonal skills, I've changed a lot lately. Even just simple thank you for holding the door or 203 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,400 you know, with children, this is probably historically always the case like how was your day good? 204 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:46,720 Just expanding upon a thought communication is, it seems like it's like a prompt now. So from your 205 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:53,360 perspective, are these technologies affecting people's communication? Is it silencing their voices? 206 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:59,920 What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean to me technology is and always has been a tool. 207 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:07,040 But because it's a tool, we need to know how are we using it? What role do we want it to play in our lives 208 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:13,600 rather than it running our days or running us? I mean, I know I run my days by my Google calendar. 209 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:21,600 I can't, I've outsourced, right? I've outsourced that. But where is our agency, our intentionality 210 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:28,400 in that? And so let me offer this, which is as we talk about voice and silence, voice isn't just 211 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,720 the words you say or don't say in a meeting. Voice is how you move through the world. 212 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:39,120 And so what are your personal values? You could call them brand values. You could think of them as 213 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:45,280 personal values, but much like your company has company values. What are your own values? Because 214 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:51,760 that to me, the manifestation of the living out of your own personal values is your voice. 215 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:57,920 It's not just what you say, it's how you move through the world. And AI can't replicate that. 216 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:05,280 So in what ways might AI or whatever technology supplement 217 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:12,240 what you're doing, amplify what you're doing in a way that we're not fearful of it, but it really 218 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:20,720 is an amplifier and an enhancer rather than us following, you know, machine learning's lead over time. 219 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,760 Yeah, I love that you said that. I think, you know, I worked from home. 220 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:33,120 So a lot of times I'm on a computer and working in silence. And same is new working off calendars. 221 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:39,280 And I've noticed just a shift in myself where I'm not communicating as much. And kind of what you 222 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:46,000 were saying at the beginning, when I do communicate, I'm what I'm getting out is it clear, concise, 223 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,600 and does the person receiving it understand, you know, their piece of it? Are they listening? Is it 224 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:58,400 their own action for them? So a lot of times if there is an action, I'll clarify with the person on the 225 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:04,960 end. So you're going to send me that invite. Great, because I think you're so spot on with that, 226 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:12,000 like how we're communicating, what I understand. Sometimes is different than the person. I think it's so, 227 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:19,760 it's so spot on right now. Yeah. And I think the over reliance on technology, right? Part of your 228 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:26,640 question was does technology silence us? Again, I think it's, are we choosing our relationship with 229 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:33,120 these technologies? When AI suggests the language that I'm typing in the email, sometimes I'm like, 230 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:40,960 that's brilliant. I just click enter and it has expedited my process. Sometimes it cannot anticipate 231 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:47,440 what I'm trying to say, right? We are still adding the human element of it. And however much of our 232 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:55,200 lives is automated, the difference, the different, how we differentiate ourselves from the technology 233 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:02,800 is actually our humanity. So how do we bring more of that back? Particularly when the technology 234 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:10,320 means that we lose some of that social connectivity, the warmth, the humor, the awkwardness that makes 235 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:18,640 us human and also makes us connect as people. Yeah, I love that. I want to talk a little bit about, 236 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,480 you know, you, you, you struggled at the beginning and you found your voice. You're a huge, 237 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,840 longest success story in, you know, one end of the spectrum and the other end of the spectrum. And 238 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:36,160 I often hear a lot in, you know, I'm an engineer, I'm in the tech community, younger generations. I hear 239 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:43,760 all the time, women and men struggling to find their voice and speak up, whether it's in intimate 240 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:50,560 relationships, it work or, you know, maybe they have a friend that's always late and they just are like, 241 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:58,000 gosh, can you be on time or hey, give me the courtesy update? And so what advice would you give women 242 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,600 or men or anybody struggling to find their voice on how they could actually find their voice? 243 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:10,720 Yeah, I mean, I'll try to distill what I ended up writing an entire book on. So one is just thinking 244 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,560 about voice in an expansive way, not just the words you say, but how you move through the world. 245 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,920 And in chapter six, I'm offering three levers for voice. So that substance relationship process, 246 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:29,440 thinking about how do we use each of those to make ourselves heard, to get our needs met. 247 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:36,480 There are some fundamental assumptions there, which is often in terms of getting our needs met. 248 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,120 People are thinking, well, I don't want to come across as needy. And there's a mindset shift there, 249 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:46,880 which is we're human. We all have needs, goals, hopes and concerns. Yours matter as much as anyone 250 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:54,960 else is, even if that's not how other people treat you. So there's an aspect of can I take up space? 251 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,560 I don't want to be a burden that can often be at play versus just the normalization. And in a very 252 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,760 clinical way, I am a party to this negotiation. Therefore, I have needs, goals, hopes and concerns 253 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,160 with my own. Right? Those are that's the fundamental part of interest-based negotiation. 254 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:17,680 The other is what might the world or other people be missing out on because you're withholding 255 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:26,960 yourself, withholding your insight and expertise. So what is really sort of bland and not novel to you, 256 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:34,560 run of the mill to you, maybe profound to someone else? And so if you have, you go. 257 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,520 No, no, finish your thought. Sorry. If you're an other centric person, 258 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:44,240 sometimes that mental hack of how can me actually using my voice more be of service to others can be 259 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,480 really helpful, especially if you're someone who's like, I don't want to take up space or I've been 260 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,240 penalized for taking up space. It's, how can I actually add? Because no one in this world can be you, 261 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,840 but you, right? You as an engineer are going to see different things based on the data that you have, 262 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:05,680 the projects that you touch, where in the world you sit, you're going to have a different vantage 263 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,720 point than anywhere else. And again, if you're looking for an entryway into that conversation, 264 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:17,600 the phrase from where I sit can be really helpful. So from where I sit, the numbers don't add up. 265 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:23,760 What do things look like from where you sit? So part of our hesitation can be, I don't want to get 266 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:30,640 it wrong. I can anticipate their rebuttal, but in doing that and defaulting to silence, we end up 267 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:37,120 not sharing our insights, our expertise versus how do we fully own what I know and what I see, 268 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:42,960 which is going to be one slice of the puzzle, one piece of the puzzle and invite in the other puzzle 269 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,000 pieces, right? So from where I sit, this doesn't make sense because of XYZ reasons, what does it look 270 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,280 like from where you sit? Granted, you live in, you sit in a different state, you sit in a different 271 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:59,280 part of the organization. So we're going to see different things so that frame of where I sit 272 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:05,600 can be really helpful as well. Yeah, and I think that's such an important piece of the well is, 273 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:14,800 you know, just in my experience, I've had some people that were not, you know, engineers or technologists 274 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:21,920 find solutions, they were non-technical people finding solutions or problems because they passed 275 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:28,400 by and noticed something that somebody else did it and they were, one of the people was a janitor 276 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:36,960 of a building I worked out of. Yeah. And he came up with a solution that an entire team couldn't, 277 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,520 but he spoke up and shared what he heard just casually and just like you said, who knows who could 278 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:52,720 benefit from what you share? In the other side of it, I was at an event last night and I heard from 279 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:59,200 a young intern that complained that she'd been an intern for a while at a company and she hadn't 280 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:06,720 received a pay raise and she's very frustrated and she was looking for a new role. And I asked her, 281 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:13,680 you know, how do you sat down with your boss and manager and talk to them? And her response was, 282 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:20,720 no, well she went ahead and did that and circled back around to me come to find out her pay raise was 283 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:29,440 accidentally processed incorrectly in their payroll system. So she indeed did receive the pay raise, 284 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:35,840 but it never actually ended up in her bank account. And so kind of going back to what you were saying is 285 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:42,800 sometimes things we make assumptions or we don't want to speak up about is maybe not even intentional. 286 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:52,400 It's a clerical error or so if we don't find that strength within to ask those questions, 287 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,880 we might be missing out on promotions and money and all kinds of things in our life that we otherwise 288 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:04,320 wouldn't have. And that's totally right, including that, hey, I've been here for a long time, I would have 289 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:12,320 expected a pay raise. I haven't seen it, so I'm sort of confused, right? That's a conversation 290 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:19,680 rather than a demand and it surfaces what could be a clerical error and opportunity or a miscommunication. 291 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,000 But we can't figure out where we've missed each other, where we haven't 292 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,160 understood the other person or where we have missing data until we have those conversations. 293 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:37,840 I do want to layer on another piece, which is if I am a leader, I am an executive part of my role is 294 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:46,640 how do I make it easier for other people to raise those issues? Because we are often invisible, 295 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,800 the power that we have is invisible to us. As an exec, I'm focused on the power I don't have, 296 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800 right? With the board will let me do or not do. If I'm a middle manager, I'm focused on what the 297 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:04,320 execs let me do or not do. And I'm not focusing on the power I do have and the power that other people 298 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:11,920 perceive me having, including this speaking up, right? It's it's phrased as speaking up for that 299 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,920 reason. I'm speaking up in the org chart, I'm speaking across lines of power and you executive 300 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:26,000 have influence over my paycheck, my promotion, my career, my relationships, and there's a lot there. 301 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,160 So if as an exec, I want people to ask what may feel like silly questions, but might actually lead 302 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:40,000 us to a new innovation or a solve for a problem the way that you mentioned the janitor coming up 303 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,400 with a solution, I need to make that really explicit that here we value all perspectives and you 304 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,000 know what? In turn, you're going to see things that I don't see because you come to this with fresh 305 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:59,040 eyes. You come to this with an engineering lens when I'm coming at this with a legal lens. And 306 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,040 again, we're this is the essence of teamwork, right? We're putting together the puzzle pieces, but as 307 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,480 the leader, I need to be explicit about that's what I expect. And as people share their puzzle pieces, 308 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,120 my response is consistent with that, which starts with appreciation, right? Thank you for sharing. 309 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:21,680 And what am I going to do about it? And if I'm not doing what you're suggesting or prescribing, 310 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,440 let me circle back to make sure I let you know, you know, we we didn't get to this this quarter 311 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,640 because there's a cash flow issue or because we have a different priority. It's not to say that it's 312 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:39,440 not important, but as I look at things from where I sit, it didn't make the cut, right? And that helps 313 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:46,160 people with what can feel like, you know, if I come to you, my exec and share something with you, 314 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:51,600 and then I hear nothing back, it's incredibly demotivating and it's really easy for me to draw the 315 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,360 conclusion that my voice and my perspective don't matter. Whereas you're probably juggling a million 316 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:04,320 things that they cannot see. So it doesn't need to be extensive, but even the in terms of priorities, 317 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,680 we determine that these three were the top priorities for the first half of the year. And so it's 318 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:18,480 on the list for Q Q3 Q4, right? Then people know, all right, it's in the ecosystem rather than, I guess, 319 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:26,640 I banged my head against the wall and it's useless. Yeah, and I also think if you're uncomfortable or unsure 320 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:35,120 or not confident in speaking up, find somebody like a buddy that you can bounce something off of. I find, 321 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:42,240 you know, I have a very direct personality and sometimes it's not well received by other people, 322 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,520 which is totally fine. I've learned how to kind of work through that, but I have had friends 323 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:55,600 that I bounced ideas off or chatted through things. I think when you're able to practice it in a, 324 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:02,640 let's say, non-scary environment or a casual environment that and get somebody else's independent 325 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:11,360 view on the situation, it tends to give us strength to do things when we've practiced it. So practice it 326 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:19,040 outside, I think, as well. Yeah, I trust it, partner. Totally. And this is also where I love technology, 327 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:26,960 because it's really awkward to practice a conversation with someone. You know what's even more 328 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:33,840 awkward? Not practicing it and going in cold. But if you're, you know, you don't want to play your 329 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,200 friends in that way or your spouse is tired of hearing about what's going on at work, pull out your 330 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:46,560 smartphone, turn it on selfie mode and record yourself and then play it back. Now, I know maybe that's 331 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,240 even more threatening than talking with friends. So we're just trying to give you options here. 332 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:57,840 But the, what practicing with a buddy does or recording is, number one, it shows you that you're actually 333 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:04,400 usually not going to die from making this request. Right? There's that embodied experience of, 334 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:12,640 I said the words and it didn't kill me, even though it can feel that way. Second is as you do the playback 335 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,640 of the video or you get feedback from your buddy, it will tell you whether you're actually being as 336 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,680 clear as you think you are. Again, it's that example where, you know, do you really think that's a good idea 337 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:29,520 versus hell, no, that's never going to happen. Really big difference. And so you're checking really for 338 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:36,080 understanding. We can't control what other people hear, but we do have influence over what we share with 339 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:43,360 them. So can I at least own my part of the puzzle of what I'm sharing and you get that test from either 340 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,840 recording yourself or testing it out on a buddy, as you said. And get, I think get feedback too. Like, 341 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,960 you know, when you're presenting something, I, you know, I'm a fidgety, you know, look, let's look 342 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:00,000 right person and so many of my friends were like, Hey, what are you doing? Are you reading an email? 343 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,480 I'm like, no, I'm staring at the answers on the ceiling. Why? And but it took somebody coaching me to 344 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,680 tell me that like, I'm looking up so they're rolling your eyes. I'm like, no, I'm just, that's how I think up. 345 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:19,440 And so I didn't realize that about myself until like you said, I recorded myself. And then I have 346 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,160 somebody to tell me, you know, most of what's wrong, you know, you're reading emails back and forth, 347 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:30,960 but it's really just the way my brain thinks. And so I love kind of what you were saying about the video 348 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,800 because we often realize, you know, things about ourself that we otherwise would it. 349 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:44,080 And that's a, that's a fantastic example. Yeah, I want to take what you just offered as well, 350 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:50,160 because there is let me record myself and maybe, you know, look in the camera rather than up at the ceiling. 351 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:57,200 And that's valuable coaching. I also want to offer the idea that, you know, no one's perfect. 352 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:03,440 And we have this one, we tend to have this one model, particularly in corporate spaces of how we're 353 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:11,360 supposed to speak and how real execs show up. Three succinct bullet points, no ums, just the right of 354 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:17,280 the amount of emotion to show that you care, but not too much that you don't seem credible, particularly 355 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:25,200 if you're a woman. And what if we got to be more human? And the way that we can do that is not try to 356 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,720 fix our eye contact or eliminate all of our ums because at the end of the day we're human, 357 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:36,240 but what you've done so beautifully in this conversation is, hey, I'm a really direct person, 358 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:41,200 or this is the way my brain thinks. I'm sort of here and there. And so you'll see that about me. 359 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:48,400 Then I know how to code your behavior, right? When I see you looking to the side or up to the ceiling, 360 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,840 I don't think you're distracted or not paying attention. I'm like, oh, that's apparently how 361 00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:00,160 Melissa's brain is working. So I'm going to focus on tracking you, right? So we can offer that framing 362 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:06,480 to help people understand where we're coming from. It also takes the pressure off of us to have to 363 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,320 have this perfect image all the time, right? And there's power, particularly as an exact, just say, 364 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,000 you know what? It's been a tough day. Or last night was a really short night of sleep, but I am here 365 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,800 with all I've got. And you're getting maybe 80% of me today, but you're also normalizing for other people, 366 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:31,040 it is okay to be a multifaceted human being. I don't know, maybe your kids were up last night, maybe 367 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:38,480 your kids were sick, maybe your dog died, whatever it is, we're not robots. So how do we instead of 368 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:45,600 spending the energy trying to pretend that we are robotic professionals just offer that insight to, 369 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,040 yeah, I'm a really direct person. Or this is what I'm working on. 370 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:57,520 I love that. That is so good. You know, we hear the word authentic a lot. Like we hear that a lot 371 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:03,200 in leadership. You've got to be authentic and authentic and, you know, authentic to me is human. It's 372 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:09,120 messy. It's like you were saying, my video is not on today because I was up all night. And I'm not feeling 373 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:16,880 good or, you know, and so I think the more that you do what you were saying, the stronger you build 374 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:23,440 trust and relationships and community because people know they can bring their authentic self. If 375 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,720 you're saying, you know, I'm late because of this reason or I can't share my camera, they're like, 376 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:33,200 okay, I could be my authentic self too and say, well, I don't, I'm in a different room because my 377 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:39,760 husband kicked me out or, you know, the plumbers fixing are plumbing and you create more, you know, 378 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,200 authentic and great type relationships with that. I love that you said that. 379 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:56,640 Yeah, absolutely. There's just so much posturing that we feel like we have to do and so much real life 380 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:03,040 that is happening. So again, channel that energy differently just because you're tired, just because 381 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,960 you're at a rough night or the plumbers here doesn't mean that we can't get really good high impact 382 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:14,640 work done. Maybe we do that better with the camera off. Maybe we do that better with me on mute right 383 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:21,440 now so you don't hear me hacking up a store, whenever it is, but I'm here, right? And letting that be 384 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:30,560 enough. I love it. So many good nuggets there. Thank you so much for sharing all that. Now, what's next? 385 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:36,000 Share with our listeners. Any upcoming projects, research? Are you writing another book? 386 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:42,800 Are you speaking? Tell us what's next. Yeah, I am speaking wherever I can about unlearning silence 387 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:48,000 because my hope in aim is to put silence on the map, the way Brane Brown put shame on the map. 388 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,760 I want us to talk about it, solve for it, figure it out. I want unlearning silence embedded in every 389 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,920 high potential leadership program so that we are leading in that way that makes it easier for the people 390 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:05,360 who report to us and follow us to show up and unleash their talent. So if that's something you're 391 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:11,280 designing would love to be in that conversation. For the sake of my marriage, I am not yet working on 392 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:18,400 another book again, the personal and professional mix, but have good ideas brewing. So in the meantime, 393 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,440 it's really trying to figure out how do we lead in a way where we don't unintentionally silence the 394 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:30,880 very people we want to support. That is so great. Elaine, thank you so much for your time, your 395 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:37,680 knowledge, and all your positive energy. Thank you for being here today. Thanks for having me. 396 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,800 and that's the Executive Connect podcast.