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Welcome to the Executive Connect Podcast, a show for the new generation of leaders.
Join Melissa R. Skag as she speaks to a wide variety of guests that bring new insights into leadership, prosperity, and personal growth.
While now it has all the answers, by building a community of open-minded and engaged leaders,
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Welcome to Executive Connect.
I'm so excited today to have Aaron tweet here with us to talk about salary negotiation.
Aaron, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Thank you so much, Melissa. My name is Aaron Tweet, and I'm an executive coach.
And the main thing that I do is I help people manage difficult conversations and make tough decisions.
And one of the key pillars of that is managing all conversations in your life and with yourself.
And today I think I'm most excited to talk about managing the conversation around salary negotiation.
This is one of my favorite pastimes to help clients with, and do speaking events on.
The reason I got into coaching was because I started helping people negotiate their salary, you know, like five, six years ago.
I spent a lot of time in corporate America, five different careers across 18 years, and various roles.
You know, I grew up in Alaska with the school in Colorado, worked in Denver, then with the L.A. for a very long time.
Now I'm here in Austin where I'm building my executive coaching practice and focusing on salary negotiation for women in their corporate and technological roles.
Excellent introduction. I'm so excited to talk with you today about salary negotiation.
And I think I'll just kick it off with from your perspective, why do people shy away from salary negotiations?
And what can you offer them as advice on how to overcome or not be hesitant with salary negotiation?
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's kind of the first thing that I find people bring to me when we're discussing, you know, their journey in salary negotiation or maybe something that they have upcoming that they want help on, which is, for the first time advocating for yourself in a meaningful way.
And I think the reason why is society really hasn't made it conducive for people who want to advocate for themselves but haven't traditionally done it, hasn't made it easy.
Hasn't shown them the path in the steps and salary negotiation such an integral part of being a person in corporate America tech startups in small business, but there is no class on it usually in college.
And a lot of times people really aren't able to ask their parents, you know, they may not have that skill set either.
It's just kind of get lucky either being someone who just asks and can figure it out or maybe has people around them that know.
So that's kind of the first thing is it's not obvious and apparent how to do it is step number one of issue number one problem number two is you do it so infrequently right.
If you say, you know, it takes one minute to negotiate your salary to actually say the words and you switch jobs seven times in your career, but seven minutes to negotiate your entire life earnings.
And so you know, it's happens every two to five year intervals maybe even longer for some individuals and you know it's a big moment that you don't really get the practice for that there isn't a playbook for and it's really high pressure and high stakes.
And so combined with the you know, if you mentioned lack of knowledge and lack of prep that most people don't get.
They want to swing for the fences and they don't have training in essence in a really high stakes in a situation.
So sometimes then maybe they back off and don't try as hard to get as much money as they could or phrased exact incentives that they want access to.
So that's one of the two biggest issues I see.
You make a really good point I think back about my first job or the jobs that came after my first job. I never even thought to negotiate I was just so excited to get the job that I just accepted the pay that they were giving me.
And I was lucky like you mentioned I had works and babies out for somebody that was in the banking industry so I got paid a higher rate just because it.
And I knew not because I had any special expertise it was one of my first jobs so I was lucky enough to get that pay but didn't know to negotiate to your point that I should even negotiate higher than I then I did.
So thinking kind of spinning a little bit off that when people are at the beginning stages of interviewing for a job.
What are some key strategies that they can you know you're going to be precedents they can set at the beginning of that interview process when they were they're just starting to talk about salary and negotiating their salary.
So what are some key strategies they can use and the early stages of interviewing.
Yeah so two categories there's the pre work or preparation for the negotiation and then the actual negotiation the preparation looks like understanding your market value.
Making sure that you understand what the company's job really is and what the scope is to make sure that that's correct and you're understanding them when you're looking at the job description.
So you can have an opinion and a philosophy to have better discussion with the recruiter the hiring manager and the whole interview panel as you move through that process.
That's kind of a quick primer on the preparation basics.
And is in one of the key things is looking at with salary transparency was paid transparency is very helpful so looking at similar job descriptions and job postings that have salary ranges in them is one of the best ways to get some data now it's only salary usually.
And so the incentive compensation the equity is usually more of a more in depth exercise to acquire that information which have a really great starting basis of what your.
Market that market value as a skill set is in maybe an employer's eyes that's kind of a bottoms up approach top down is to consider what is the value of what I do for the company.
You know sometimes the someone's a HRBP or a software engineer at a large company they could go and maybe run that function at a mid size company or a startup.
So think about where your skill sets can have arbitrage across different stages of company different industries is another really interesting way to look at it.
So that's kind of a quick primer on before the negotiation now when does the negotiation start and when you go in fades to is the next question.
So the negotiation starts on the first phone call when the recruiter asks what are your salary expectations and this is a part where I think kept just a lot of people off guard that they're asking that already sometimes and I think you know for your audience it pretty seasoned and so they're familiar with that that occurring.
But a lot of conventional advice says to just state a range and what I coach my clients to do is you know you have all that preparation and that data informed about your skill set.
But you want to see what they think and it's too early in my opinion to be stating a salary range because you don't have leverage yet because you have an interview you don't know the full scope of the job and whether it's even leveled appropriately.
You have to define the quantitative before you address the quantitative and so starting to figure out what their pay philosophy is is where I'd like to go with my clients and that looks like saying to the recruiter hey I'm so glad we're talking about this can you tell me about your company's compensation philosophy for this role.
Because they're asking you about salary but what about bonus and equity that culminates in total compensation so that's the ultimate number that you want to have clarity on when you negotiate and offer at the end.
And you know you may take less salary and more equity if you can get with a really hot series B startup if you go work for fortune 500 fortune 1000 it's going to be more balanced towards you know wanting to rob us salary usually because the equity maybe isn't as good.
Maybe isn't as much philosophically as maybe a startup would give and so understanding that ratio and that mix depending on industry stage of company it's too soon to be saying what your salary should be because there's there usually isn't one fixed number that you would accept given your scope of opportunities.
And I think sometimes you make a really good point people jump the gun on that like the recruiter wants to know you know you're out of the pay range right if you want 150 and the job is 100 they want to get you out of the process and telling them that your salary is 150 and they only have a button at 100 would automatically knock you out of that job right away so I make a really good point making sure you understand before.
So you know you move to the next level so what do you think are some mistakes that people make and and negotiating their salary.
Yeah great question so number one is not preparing adequately and that kind of informs the whole process.
But once you have that that preparation done as we mentioned.
Make it past that first question basically punting by getting the information usually when you ask that question what is your company's compensation philosophy you'll find out one of two things one is they'll state state the range that they have and maybe they'll mention the bonus target if there is one and if there's equity they may just say and then equity is involved they may not get super specific at that juncture.
But it's good if they think it sounds like you know a company like that may have done its work to define what the job should be paid sometimes you find out that company doesn't have a philosophy what the job should be paid and that's why they're asking you to see who can fit their secret internal number that they haven't officially defined.
Or maybe they'll work it out throughout the interview process based on the caliber of candidates coming through and so you want to leave that open and gather more information to understand the scope of the role the role is right.
The next mistake is not understanding that the way you interview is also the way you negotiate.
So basically as you're interviewing you're looking for what are the biggest pain points and you know how you can solve them uniquely.
Obviously it's how you get the job. But it's also if it really comes down to it sometimes you really want to push it hard in a negotiation after you get the offer reminding them of the key factors that you've identified in that business that department that worked that function that you'll be able to help them with that will differentiate you as a candidate even more.
So we're collecting that data along the way so that you can use that as part of your closing arguments.
And I'd say third the biggest one is not believing that you can't negotiate to be honest.
Every job offer negotiation is like a kitchen remodel it deserves at least one good counter.
And so when they give you an offer sometimes the first offers are very good and you know if you've historically not negotiated or you're currently unemployed or you really don't want to work at your job anymore and you want out immediately and a new great opportunity comes along.
It's an opportunity for you to kind of let the pain of your current situation stop and go into something new and exciting and the idea of challenging that by continuing the tension in between of the negotiation is scary sometimes to people and that's usually why they work with me as a coach or maybe another coach but the idea there is you can always take at least one shot just to make sure that you fully advocated for yourself fully check to see that there isn't something still of that.
There isn't something still available because a lot of times when people don't negotiate they kind of do it often assumption they don't want to be a burden.
They don't want to rock the boat they don't want to see greedy and you know these are some of the three biggest comments self imposed obstacles they've seen clients say about their previous perceptions of negotiating.
And it's worth worth taking shot even if the company doesn't do anything else and you did ask then you know you truly got the best deal possible.
And no matter what offer is you suggest negotiating so even if it's what say you're making a hundred the offers one funny I think most people just take it right they're like oh i'm getting twenty thousand dollars more i'll take it so your suggesting maybe negotiating like a sign on bonus or what are other maybe extra week vacation or whatever.
You come up with it you understand through the interview process is that what i'm hearing.
Yeah i mean it's i'd say within ninety nine percent you should always try and negotiate there are certain instances i'm sure that exists out there in the business world where they give it for phenomenal offer.
But the idea is that compensation starts as a science and ends as an art when you think about how companies in HR departments determine what to pay people.
And so art is subjective and you want to make sure that you've at least had your voice heard in your input infused into that conversation so that that art is something that you like.
What to negotiate is another great topic we should get into you mentioned sign on bonus you know normally the trifecta that is kind of the holy grail is more salary.
Higher equity if there is a company that does give equity and a sign on bonus.
Yeah i it's interesting i've had some friends that are moving into rules that are startups and they had significantly less equity than some of their other peers that negotiate it so i it's by spot on right i think if you don't negotiate you can't get anything unless you ask right you got to ask and all they can.
Do is say no and if they really want you they're going to you know maybe negotiate a little bit but i would agree i think there's there's always room for something on the table.
You know we talked a little bit about the job part of it so you got the offer you're happy with the offer you've negotiated something now pivoting a little bit what about when you have the job.
And you've been there you know a significantly long time so longer now you stick companies the people are coming in at higher space salaries.
How do you negotiate in a position where you either been at a company for a long time or you've been in the role how do you do that negotiation maybe in a performance review or something how do you how do you negotiate once your employee i guess is the question.
One my other favorite topics so not everyone who is looking for salary negotiation help is interviewing another company or wants to lead and you absolutely can negotiate while you're currently in a role so you know thinking about some of the principles we learned we discussed and negotiating as a candidate that first step is important understanding your market value.
As far as you know what other roles in your industry and comparable size companies are paying. Now you know what where could you with your skillset go it's really important lens to take to understand your maximum market value from a skill set perspective then thinking about your own internal company you know what is the unique value proposition that you feel you are providing to your manager your team the customer base the client group all of those things are really important.
And this is like that qualitative build up to combine with the quantitative research you do on your market value to then start defining your own philosophy about you want to raise but how much right.
Saying you want to raise and not having an opinion on the number isn't as helpful as if you did have a direction where you wanted to go because if you leave it completely up to your manager.
And they are open to giving you a raise it may not be as much as you want and so if you really want to use it you should have it in form depending on what that number is so it's like step one now let's talk timing you mentioned performance review let's start with that one that's probably the most low hanging fruit as far as when a raise could be asked for.
And typically performance reviews are done once a year there are some companies that have you know two two calibration to year one is supposed usually a non compensation related calibration.
Halfway through the year doesn't mean confidence do not happen but maybe just not from the company's perspective are they intended to happen.
But don't let an HR policy hold you back from asking is the point.
Now let's say it is that final year review you know the the Super Bowl of a corporate America's employees career cycle you know whether you actually get your raise so if your company's.
And then the fiscal year or performance review year is on the calendar year then actually right now we're having this conversation February mid February of 2024 most people are already having a performance discussions right now for 2023 or it might spill into March a bit but the actual sit down with your manager probably happening right now in the way I coach people to do this to prepare for this is ideally know that this date is coming.
So probably in if you let's say you work summer for two years maybe three and you've never had a raise that was to your liking you've never been promoted or even if you have maybe you're rising star same this same advice applies.
But start priming your manager on what your goals are probably August September because the performance review that's happening right now February March.
Is it that should be the answer not the question about should you get a raise if you asked now and I would support somebody doing that absolutely should always advocate for yourself but point is if you waited thinking oh I can only ask during the sit down that's a bit of an issue because you manager will say oh well thank you for sharing.
I didn't know you felt that way why don't you put together put together a plan for your performance in 2024 for a reason 2025 and you get pumped a year so save yourself that time you want to start priming your manager you probably four months five months before the actual sit down of the performance review.
And that's assuming that you know you don't actually have the opportunity to have a regular discussion some people don't have touch they don't touch base with their manager that much and when they do you know those meetings go quick there those one of ones maybe the by weekly sometimes it's only every month and they're quite a flurry of you know the businesses priorities your teams priorities which you're working on.
And you know sometimes people feel that if they're to bring up themselves in that meeting again we run to some of the same issues they don't want to feel like they're rocking the boat being greedy but at some point you will have to ask you will have to state your case and in order to get your manager thinking about it when they have the most leverage for you it has to be in the budget and by the time you're sitting down February March for your performance review that budget usually is already pretty baked.
The raises you know the performance distribution curve has been set the budget for that has been input by the manager and it could maybe go back and ask is just going to be a lot more friction then if you started putting into mind what your vision was for yourself your career which you desired raised raised is then they would actually if they were on board start doing what they need to do the manager up from them from their own perspective in order to get the money to give to you at you.
At your performance review time.
Yeah I know a lot of times friends that are in positions for a while they've been getting two three percent raises year over year no matter if they achieve the highest top results everything's been tippy top they've achieved everything they were supposed to and they're getting two percent three percent raises that aren't keeping up with inflation or
you know just where salaries are right now what is your recommendation you'll say they're been there for a while may get gotten two percent one percent what would be your recommendation for these people to you know they've gone to their manager they've showed their value in every year they're getting two percent a year what would be your recommendation for these type of people to get more compensation.
That's a great question and it's a trend that is probably going to accelerate just given the state of the economy companies watching head count expensive and incremental cost creep you know as far as salaries live forever the one to two to three percent if you're getting that you know that that's just a call it symbolic raise that is something that the company is not prioritizing the
the the base salary increase of the employees they assume and the I guess the assumption is that the company's compensation philosophy ranges and structures are pretty organized you know if you're in an earlier stage company younger company or company that has a very lean HR team that may not actually be true and that's the other reason why you should be doing yearly research maybe take interviews from time to time check your market value to ensure that you're moving along appropriately
with where the market is based on your skill set again compensation starts as a science and ends as an art so and currently you may not have the right progression and if you don't say anything and you're allocated that one two to three percent the company seems you're happy
and so and this isn't about the squeaky squeaky wheel always gets the grease it's about the person who is able to advocate for themselves communicate their value and alignment with the company's objectives or the teams objectives and how show how their outcomes are really delivering for the company on what it wants or maybe even more
or maybe the scope has increased you have to talk about these things you know a lot something my clients have started roles and then six months in they something got a lot more even like two weeks that a client her manager hired her quit and then now she had to do her job and so when when things like that happen when this material changes
there's opportunities to ask for more but if you don't say anything and just let go by for years and years and years you'll get just the basic amounts so you got to ask second is having communication with your manager about what your goals and objectives are in virtually real time you know we all know that corporate goals can get set very late in the process and even if your company is on top of it and is able to set what your individual goals are for a year
you know actually earlier in the year things change and being able to have a discussion with your manager about how you're trending is important because sometimes people think I think I'm doing pretty good and then sit down with a manager like well you're standard performance
it's like really why you didn't tell me and so you know being able to shake the bushes a bit have a good dialogue and good relationship with your manager so you can ask them probably I don't know once every two months something like that
just want to check in and see you know how you think I'm doing and maybe have a dialogue about that and then if you really want to push it and say you know is there any reason that if my performance continues the way it is or has been you would not give me the highest possible raise at our performance review.
Oh I love that that was great because you're asking for it you're not waiting you're asking for it now today you're putting it in their mind today.
Correct because what you don't want is we never talk about it the entire year goes by you get to the performance review and like well you could have done this a little better we like this and so you know let's put that plan together again for next year and you get puns it a whole year and depending on the cycle could be up to 14 months before you actually get a new raise right so it's just about avoiding that it's about removing plausible deniability from your manager so that they have to tell you the truth at some point about your performance or they just may have a good idea.
And then you go maybe I've done all I can here maybe it is time to start looking for a new job if money is the biggest motivator for you obviously there's a lot of other factors and not saying you should just blindly quit your job if you're not getting the raise you want.
And then you just let it out so that you understand that if you stay and keep performing that way and the economic situation doesn't change you may not get much more of a raise.
Yeah well said I think there's two kind of two pieces I think of there's people that get a job stay with the job move up go for more pay over a period of time and then I think there's the other side right now a lot of peers have gone from one company to the next company the next company what they're chasing is dollars right so they're.
They're chasing dollars do the process when i'm finding with the second people as they kind of rode this wave with the big salaries right in the last few years and now there's been you know a let go or a downsize or a shift and so they've kind of jump their way up you know double the salary and now they're having to go back and
relook at their what their value is and I love you mentioned like knowing what your value and what your worth is how would you suggest somebody do that like in that case where somebody had been it's a company for a while they've stayed and you know three percent over five years is nothing compared to going from one job to the next job where you're talking 20 30 40 thousand dollar pay increases.
Right it's a great question and you know it's understanding the dynamics of the environment you know so now we're probably more in a downtrend than we are an uptrend you know maybe some time it feels like to cliff and it's on all the way off that we're seeing the the first thing you do is as we've been saying is you gotta have a good and good informed lens on what your value is in the market looking at those job descriptions and even if you don't live in a state with that pay transparency.
Looking at that same company or you know they have that role maybe in different multiple cities being able to infer at least what it could pay if you do some geo calculations maybe up or down from whatever that posting is is a great start you know tapping your network if you do have people in the same industry getting their lens on you know what what they see people making especially if they have you know maybe they're in a management role where they are making those decisions rather than just as an individual contribute.
As an individual contributor and it's what they make but every piece of data is helpful so once you get that data then you have to make sure like are your skillsets top notch because ultimately it's about you know having that having that skill set that is enough to differentiate from all of the candidates is that's how you have leverage even in a downward economy or downward job market the companies are still hiring people that they really need right is just the larguess in the fraud has been.
The fraud has definitely been taken out and so they're looking to be much more efficient with their dollars more scrutinizing during the offer process to ensure that they're getting the highest caliber of candidates and so the same way that you introduce for the role is just a higher hurdle rate but then if you get in you have leverage because you get a job in this economy you're a standout.
Yeah I think that's a really really good point I know in the past I used to use websites like career builder dot com to see the pay ranges like in a city is that still is career builder is that still a thing is it still accurate information because I know some friends on the on career builder there's salaries substantially less on career builder than what they're making and then at some states it's higher than what others are making so is that like a good place to look.
You know I have two opinions about that you know as a former compensation consultant you know inside four different type companies when employees would bring that type of data to us from glass door salary dot com.
It was never super compelling obviously we heard what the employee was ultimately trying to tell us but from a pure data standpoint that data is kind of dirty itself reported sounds super clean and it's just salary right where the incentives there's a whole lot of things.
There's a whole the whole thing is missing but the other opinion I have share is you know you as a candidate or someone working in job one more data what are you supposed to do right you do need something so I would definitely look at that if you work in a technological role levels dot fyi is pretty robust as far as how they break out distinct skill sets what they pay by level it these these sort of you know the rebels are.
Creating their own data sets and they're they're getting more and more robust in nature not quite rivaling you know the Mercer and Radford surveys that you know internal HR departments do cross thousands and thousands of companies but it's getting really good so looking maybe for an industry specific.
Data set I know in even an aviation there's you know reported data from a survey in one main magazine publications so across that there's maybe a unique well of information for you to start with rather than one of the broader ones like a glass door or salary dot com.
That's great Aaron thanks for sharing that I've never even heard of it and I plan to go look at is great great piece of information.
Yeah and of course starting just on the salary at least job descriptions that's one of my favorites where there's states that require pay transparency is California New York Colorado things like that.
That's great.
What do you mind full of time I want a couple closing questions for you any final thoughts or top tips you can share with our listeners maybe top three tips about negotiating their salary that you can share in closing sure.
Understanding where you are in time is really important whether as a candidate or your intersting out of company just because you know the what's the budget process understanding how far away from where the company normally makes that decision is important again so you can help prime your manager make things frictionless for your acts ask rather than you know waiting for the raise it comes you're unhappy with it and then going back to the well.
Definitely should I would always advocate someone try right is just about you may be whenever you see this we don't know but you should definitely try the second thing is advice wise definitely cool so many things.
Understand the performance requirements and the performance criteria like from an HR perspective what is the actual scale and start to have that in baked in to your conversation.
To your conversation with your manager while you're talking about what you're going to be accomplishing when it should be when it should be done by and if you're able to do those things do asking them you can never get a full confirmation but say would this give me the best chance at getting the highest possible raise or highest possible bonus or highest possible annual equity grant.
Because it's you know if you're in tech those three levels are possible usually and you want to ask about all that's not always just about the salary and sometimes like you know companies will be watching calf to what maybe they would be more open special since they laid people off they have some frees you know stock and they have treasury stock so delusions may not be as much of a concern and stock prices have gone up as in the ultimate high this week so you know delusion is maybe less of an argument.
And this current juncture it could change in several months but that that's one tip I would give there.
I love it negotiate negotiate negotiate negotiate and ask for it.
Yeah but as a campaign you know and and you're the campaign is ensuring that you're managing you are on the same page about how your performance is being viewed is probably the thing that's consistent with spikes occasionally of actually asking you.
Rather than saying nothing having zero clarity about how you're doing and trying to climb the entire mountain and one one or two conversations well trying to prevent people.
I love it Aaron thank you so much for being here and sharing your knowledge before we close tell us a little bit about you your book how we can connect with you.
For the listeners. Yeah thank you so my name is Aaron tweet it's t h w e a t t in my last name so Aaron tweet Aaron two a's.
Is my Instagram handle at Aaron tweet my website is re spark coaching dot com there you can find out more about me sign up for a new my newsletter getting touch with me if you want a chat about any negotiations you have coming up.
And also go in the top of the page and click book and sign up for my book that is coming I think actually just got delivered by you PS while we were here.
I wrote a book with Chris Voss and he's an former FBI hostage negotiator who wrote this book never split the difference so you know I call after the book with him on using empathy and business and the ultimate foundation of how I coach and my executive coaching practice what the salary negotiation or personal issues.
Is helping you manage the conversation in your life and career.
Thank you so much Aaron for being here today and that's all for us at executive connect.
Thank you so much.
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