You know, all these things are experiential.
They're all different mysteries
as how we would frame it in witchcraft.
And mysteries is like how I was talking about like with dreams,
you know, this sort of like,
there's this genus aqua quality to certain dreams
that are prophetic or are a spirit visitation.
And while I can't properly explain what that quality is,
if you've had an experience with it,
we can kind of talk about it and kind of understand what it is.
And you're both kind of on the same page
because you've experienced the same mystery, the same experience.
These things are essentially techniques trying to push you
in the direction of figuring it out for yourself
and what works for you.
Welcome to the Re-Patterning Podcast,
where we believe your mind body system is your domain
and that choosing the beliefs, habits,
and patterns that best support you is your birthright.
I'm your host, Arden Lee,
creator of the Re-Patterning Project,
an eight week course in learning to free yourself
from the patterns of your past
and program your mind for your dreams of the future.
Join me for these extraordinary conversations
as we unpack the keys to creating our reality.
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Re-Patterning Podcast.
I'm so excited to dive in to today's conversation
with today's guest.
But before I do that, I just wanna let everyone know
since you've been listening to this podcast
for a little while now, presumably.
And you may have heard about the eight week course,
the Re-Patterning Project that inspires these conversations.
I wanted to let you know that we are now enrolling
for a start on September 13th.
So we start on September 13th,
we go for eight weeks and we cover all of the ways
that we can understand our mind body,
human operating system, the way that we learn our patterns,
how we take on our beliefs and mindsets
and how we can adapt and change them.
We're using our will in order to become our favorite versions
of ourselves if you've enjoyed some of the things
that we've been talking about in these conversations.
If you feel like you wanna be a deeper part of the community,
those doors are open, you can reach out to me,
you can find us at therepatterningproject.com
or on any of my social media.
Reach out, say hi, we'll have a conversation
and we'll see if it's right for you.
All right, and now I'm so excited to introduce today's guest.
Today we are gonna be speaking with Mat Orin,
who is the author of The Psychic Witch,
as well as The Psychic Art of Terror and Mastering Magic.
He is also the co-host of a podcast called The Circle is Podcast.
Podcast, get it, it's a joke.
With Rachel True, who you may also know,
has having been one of the stars of the movie The Craft.
And he teaches at a whole lot of different,
and I was asking him just before this,
should I mention some of the places you teach?
And he's like, oh, there's so many.
His books have been translated into over 13 languages.
His work is everywhere around the occult community.
And he's someone that I have learned a great deal from.
I'm proud to call him a friend.
Welcome to The Repatterning Podcast, Mat Orin.
- Hi, I'm really excited to be here.
Thank you for having me on today.
- I'm so excited to have you here.
I have your work in psychic development.
I have to tell you when this book, Psychic Witch,
came through the mail and I opened it.
I immediately was like, wow, first of all,
it's so beautifully laid out.
(laughs)
And the illustrations also are really, really gorgeous.
And it's such a clear format made with all of these
really, clearly delineated exercises for psychic development.
And what I'm interested in chatting about today
is thinking of psychic development as one more way
that we can repattern, that we can train our minds
to do things that we previously didn't think that we can do.
So I'd love for you to share a little bit
about how psychic development is something
that people can train in themselves.
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
I'm a big proponent that everyone is psychic.
They may not be actively psychic all the time,
but I do believe it's a natural human ability.
And most of us have that kind of dormant in us.
And I think it's kind of programmed out of us as a society.
But I do believe from my own personal experience
and from training other people,
that it is something that can be developed and can be awoken.
- And share with us, what are some indicators
that people might possess a psychic ability
that is sort of like an inborn natural talent?
What are things that people who are maybe otherwise
on a wake-in to a cultism might,
but maybe they're listening to this, right?
What are some indicators that they might have even,
yes, everyone can train,
but what are some signs that they might have
more of a natural talent?
- You know, I think it's gonna vary for everyone.
I think everyone's wired a little bit differently.
So, you know, certain clear senses
are gonna be stronger than others.
But I think like even the most average person
has had those psychic experiences where like,
you're thinking of someone you haven't talked to
in a really long time and then they call you
or you're thinking about a topic and then suddenly
you see it everywhere, even if you've never spoken about it,
you know, and then I differentiate
to psychic ability and intuition.
And I think people are a little bit more tuned
into intuition naturally than psychic ability.
But I think we mostly see psychic ability predominant
in children, particularly up to about the age seven.
You have children that have imaginary friends
or that have like monsters under their beds, you know,
or like, you know, have experiences where like,
oh, they're talking to grandma that they've never met
and like bring out all these details.
I think that like as a society,
like I said, it's kind of programmed out of us.
One of the things I talk about in psychic,
which is that I found totally independently
but I was like, oh, these are connected.
In sociology, around seven is when the child like realizes
that people have opinions of them
and how they conduct themselves and act
and what they say forms how people think about them.
So I think that's when we kind of start self-policing
and we start kind of repatterning in not a good way, you know,
to fit in a little bit more and to be more accepted
among other people, whether that's adults
or older kids or even peers.
- Yeah, we become conditioned through our experiences
to shut down a lot of our natural intuitive gifts
if they're deemed in any way like unacceptable
or if we feel like they're gonna get us bullied
or things like that, right?
- Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, I think part of it too is parents unintentionally
trying to calm their children down and not scare them.
Like, you know, when the kids are talking about things
in their room or you know, like having imaginary friends,
it's very natural for parents to A, B like,
oh, that's just your imagination or it's not real.
And, you know, while it's done with good intentions,
I think sometimes that, you know, you listen to your parents
so you start turning something off within you.
- You know, I just thought of something.
When I was a kid at summer camp
and I must have been like maybe seven or eight years old,
I had no idea how I got this notion into my head,
but I somehow began to believe that I had the ability
to tell people what animal they had been in their past life.
And it got to a point where like this got around the camp
and everyone started like, and in my mind,
and you know, granted this was a memory from a long time ago,
but in my mind, I can, I just remember like hundreds of people
and me kind of like just deciding what,
and I actually got really embarrassed about that
like later on in my life, like in my 20s,
like what was I thinking or whatever?
And now I look back at that and I'm like, I wonder
because it turns out like I have certain,
I do have certain gifts for being able to see certain patterns
in people and like, you know, detecting which blood,
which is not something I've been formally trained in,
something I wanna get trained in
because I feel like I have a natural aptitude for seeing that.
And now I'm like, I wonder if I was, I wonder if I was right.
(laughs)
- And I love, you know, like in the book, I quote,
"Lady Cersei" who is a traditional witchcraft elder.
She has the saying that if you would learn the witch's way,
observe with care the child at play,
and like I think, you know, with both psychic ability
and magic, just like observing children
is one of the most enlightening to like understand
the sort of frame of mind to be like to both be receptive
and, you know, cast magic.
In the psychic art of terror, I even have an exercise
where it's like, you know, find a small child in your life
that knows nothing about terror
and, you know, have them pull a tarot card for you
and have them tell you what they see in the card, you know,
to gain like their psychic impression
because they have no idea what it means, you know.
- I love that.
- Yeah, you know, I was a weird kid.
You know, I'm sure you were a weird kid.
I think most of us who are drawn to this stuff
were weird children and a lot of it has parallels
with a lot of the things that we later ended up like,
you know, either devoting our lives to
or became a big part of our spiritual identity.
Like, I know that for me like I used to try to form little
cousins when I was in elementary school even, you know.
You know, I was one of those kids that made potions
and I just, I've always been kind of drawn to it
a little bit more than even my peers.
And I think that would be another indication
of like psychic ability, like you were asking.
Like, it's just that kind of natural draw to these things.
I think is an indication in itself,
whether you have training or knowledge in it or not.
- Yeah.
- You know, and then there's people like my father,
my father and my mother, but specifically my father
who is probably the most psychic person
I've ever met in my whole life,
but he doesn't own it, he doesn't claim it,
he doesn't like, he's almost afraid of it.
And it's like this weird denial he has with it
because he's like a born again Christian or whatever.
He'll say things and then it'll happen that day, you know,
like exactly, you know, as he just, you know,
it was kind of spitballing it.
And I think that's like another kind of sign
of like a quote unquote natural like psychic
or someone with inclined psychic abilities
is that they just kind of know things
or recognize patterns like you were saying that develop.
I think like people with various of the dreams
also tend to have a more of an inclination
to psychic ability and quicker development
because they have such a rich inner world
and that's such a major part of all of this.
You know, I really strive as you know
to bring people back to imagination
and re-embracing the power of imagination.
And I think that like that can lead to spiritual psychosis
as well, but I think like it's important to understand
that like all imagination is not necessarily like
just flights of fancy or delusion.
And not all delusion is connected to psychic ability.
- Yeah, that's a great topic by the way.
What, how do you figure out or discern the line
between delusion that can potentially, you know,
lead one down the path to a spiritual crisis
or you know, just like having a whole false narrative
versus what is the information we can trust?
- Yeah, so this is kind of hard once again.
So like all of these things,
none of them are like one size fits all for everyone
because everyone is wired differently
and a lot of things come to people differently.
And my answer are people usually don't like,
which is meditation and journaling
or something like that, something where you're record keeping
and you're learning how your mind works.
The example I usually give is have you ever had a dream
where like a past loved one comes to you
or a dream that's prophetic
and like there's a different quality to those dreams
they feel different and you can't really explain it.
Like we don't really have the language for it
but if you've experienced it, you know there's a different
quality to it and if someone else has had it just like this,
like they can have a frame of reference
of what you're talking about, you know,
because they have their own personal experience.
So I think with psychic ability, it's a lot like that.
It's a lot of like finding how information comes to you
and also record keeping like well how accurate was it
in the long run, you know?
And you can start to see patterns of like,
oh like when it's accurate there's this feeling
or there's this quality to the information
versus this which usually isn't.
Another thing that I always tell people to look out for
is anything that is a projection based
if it's about someone else as well as things
that are self-glorifying in ways that maybe like
are more egotistical and I think that comes more
to like spirit communication more than anything.
You know, I have spirits that like are constantly
are like no you're wrong, like you're just straight up
wronged about this and I think that's you know
a good reality check as well as just having people
in your life whether they're in person or not
but people that you trust even if it's an online community
that can kind of rope you back in when it seems like
you're going a little bit overboard or in a direction
that's a little bit unhealthy
because I think you know like for example
like not necessarily about this topic
but my husband is usually a good like he can see things
in me before I can see them myself, you know
whether it's certain patterns or qualities or behaviors
so I think like having other people in your life
as a good sounding board can also help whisper
to psychosis and really new and back to reality.
- Yeah, yeah that's so true and I love what you said
also about really knowing ourselves in our own patterns
you know something we were just speaking about
like the idea of you know
warding off psychic attack and something that I had experienced
when I had an attack happen to me in recent months
was I noticed that there were certain thoughts
and impulses in me where I was like this is not like me
like there was one where you know
and I've said it on this podcast number of times
I always encourage people to question me or to you know
don't just take what I say as an authority
like always like if there's something that you're curious about
always ask always question always feel free to you know
tell me to get lost or whatever you know
like I'm not the only teacher out there or whatever
and I felt myself feeling like that
like don't question me like how dare you question my experiences
or whatever and thank goodness I caught myself you know
because it's so scary thinking about how there is a
there is a potential for that delusion to set in
and how deep because I've been doing this work
every patterning now for like about a decade
and like it's it's scary like if I had not done that work
if I did not know myself as well as I do
like I don't want to even think about what would happen
because sometimes like it can feel real right
yeah and that's you know the Oracle of Delphi
like they said above it was know that I self
and I mentioned that I think briefly in psychic which
but that's you know people have asked like Mat
when are you gonna teach about spirits
when are you gonna teach about like spirit work
and deity and stuff like a I keep it like open
because it's a beginner but like my emphasis
particularly with psychic which is to get to know your own
spirit before you start even interacting with any other
spirits because I think that like spirits will also use
things against you if they're not a good spirit you know
or they they want to somehow manipulate you
because I mean spirits are like people right
like there's all kinds of people with all kinds of
different motives and that's why you know
a lot of you see in a lot of online discourse
it's a popular thing to say that like oh psychology
or self-help or self-development or self-work
or spirituality has nothing to do with magic
and I agree on some level you don't need any of that for magic
but I think that like as a magician
as a magical practitioner even a psychic
being clear on who you are understanding yourself
understanding where your weaknesses lie
you know where your vulnerabilities are
where your strengths are are you going to serve you
immensely like when it comes to magic or psychic ability
as well as just your personal life and I think that's like
one of the things that like I'm sorry
I'm nerdy now I'm going on a tangent but
please note out
I'll just her Crowley when he did the forward to
the mother's translation of the ours goaisha you know
he has this quote that he's criticized about a lot
which is that the demons of the goaisha are just
parts of your mind right and I think there's a
truth in that I mean aside from like the hermetic
like as above so below as within so without you know
I think it's more about like there's something in you
that resonates with all of those demons you know
and so like learning you know whether you go through
the HGA whether you take that as literal or metaphorical
you know but this idea of like binding your demons
like having it to where your demons are
your inner demons are all under control
then external demons can't use their powers of influence
against you in that area in that realm
yes yes because they're literally like the
neural pathways that you use the most often are
the ones that are most vulnerable so it's like you
know it's so much easier to like if you if you cast
on someone that they're going to have like a
crazy bender of a weekend and destroy their life
or whatever like it's easier to do that to
someone who has a propensity for you know
addiction and someone who's like some vegan
new age t totaler or whatever like because the pathway is there
well and then even then like that's why you know it's so trendy
and it's so overused and over abused but like
the idea of like young young shadow work
I mean because it's so overhyped and it's become
it's also turned into things that it never was meant to be
but this idea of like the shadow being things that like we don't recognize
you know so a lot of people are like oh weren't you conscious of your shadow
like no like because it's my shadow
but you know the right it's literally your blinders
but like the the constantly doing self inquiry constantly
evaluating yourself and striving to be a better person
and being willing to work on your own personal flaws is going to serve you
in these ways because you know a lot of times in my experience a lot of these
like love and light new age people end up having the darkest shadows and the
darkest demons and we're constantly seeing that unfold
you know I mean all the way up to like de-packed Houtra you know
and his whole thing so I think there's definitely something about
while magic may not be inherently about self-development
I think that they go hand in hand in a path to not destroy yourself with magic
because I think magic and spirits exacerbate
whatever is going on with you and your life
I mean that was the whole point of the movie of the craft right like
right yeah all right yeah and I'll push even further back on that narrative
because I really think that that self-knowledge and knowing what patterns
we have those patterns and mindsets inform our desires they
inform what we believe is possible for us and like how can you say
that oh that has nothing to do with magic when it's literally
informing what magic you choose to cast this is a huge thing that I'm talking about
because if you are running patterns and you're trying to you know your patterns
are essentially strategies for getting the things that you want right for
earning love and safety for earning security whatever all the things that
we are seeking as humans and so often those are conditioned into us in ways
that are misguided you know so we people please when we want to earn love or
whatever instead of having love for ourselves you know we take on the and
and that's essentially kind of what repatterning is it's looking at these
strategies we're using and taking those out and reinst like
installing in their place the strategies that actually get us the things that
we're looking for by making those conscious and choosing a thousand percent
well I'm not someone that's constantly you know going on the internet and being
like oh my magic so big and bad and like my magic always gets results and
you know I am at a point where my magic almost always works and part of that is
because I know what I'm casting for and I know that I want it and you know I'm
very big proponent to that both psychic ability and magic the biggest obstacle is
yourself and so I think a lot of times when people cast magic and they're not
seen results and they did everything correctly it's like well your will is not
there and it's not just about your personal willpower it's about having
you know and my work is very big on the self-being multiple aspects right so having
all of yourself aligned to know that you want it because a lot of times on a conscious level you
think you want something you know you think I absolutely want this but there's parts of you
that don't want it or don't you know for example like like love magic or money magic would be the
best easiest examples to grab for where like you're like yes I want this I want this but then
there's part of you that's like I don't deserve this and that's so common and it sounds like
that's like what you're talking about like you know at least partially love Re-Patterning those
yeah those yeah and it's well it's also just that like if we don't if we don't really examine our
strategies that we're using to get what we want if we add magic to the mix with that then we're
just 10 xing those strategies that are already going in the wrong direction like I think whatever
spirits were looking out for me that I did not learn magic until I begin like my really magic like was
my real initiation into magic and my Re-Patterning journey were kind of one and the same and
because I just learned that for whatever reason you know going oh you should always start your intentions
with the word I right so I bought a lot so I thank God because like what you know back in the day before
like I used to be a pickup artist you know I can only I would have been like full on love which I'm sure
you know if if and I'm making the the reference to the Annabelle movie of course which I'm sure you
know but just for our listeners I'm not saying like every love which does this but like according
the movie you know she just she tries to I related so hard to that movie I was like I felt so
called out by it you know my former self like oh trying all these things to earn love and then
like being disappointed that no one actually like shows up for her and and cares for her so yeah
we're just we're just amplifying strategies that already don't work if we're doing that so I
don't know how anyone says like oh self development and spirituality has nothing to do with magic I
tell people all the time like sigil magic it will take you two minutes to learn and a lifetime to
master because it's not about making a sigil it's about what are you casting for and that's the part
where it really comes in you have to think about it I think like you know I definitely agree and I
think that applies for a whole bunch of magical and psychic things across the board like one of the
things that I really emphasize in psychic which is this idea that like yes some of these things
seem seem basic they seem like beginner things but like like you said like it takes a lifetime
like like I'm still finding deaths in things that I'm like oh I didn't know like you know it it
went this far even just like grounding and centering like I'm constantly like coming across like oh I
see how this can be used in other avenues you know and I also think that like for example grounding
and centering especially the way that I teach it like I think it teaches you how to direct energy
and you don't even realize that that's what you're doing but you're learning what magic feels like
going through you and moving through you you know and I think that is helpful in in tons of areas
but yeah the starting things with I the first thing that popped into my head when you said that was
the movie labyrinth right from from the 80s like because you know she she has that scene where she like
does her dramatic prose from the book with her baby and she's like you know goblin king goblin
king you know take this child away but the goblins are like what the hell you know like that didn't
even start with the words I wish like what is that rubbed you know like do you know I literally
use that scene in the first module of my four week course myths and magic to talk about how like you
need to call on like there are these there are these beings who are they're just waiting for you to
say the magic words and then to come out of the woodwork and help you and they're like they're in their
chip that they can't you know they can't do it without your permission so you need to say so that's
so cool that you brought that up because I'm like that's that's like my my almost very first beginner
teachable moment when I teach folks magic so tell me also we talked about a little bit about like
what might be the signs that someone has natural psychic gifts I'm wondering what might be the signs
that someone has natural magical gifts because in the book you you do make some differentiation
between psychism and magic and obviously there's lots of overlap but how do you think you know
or do you think that they differ from the indicators of psychic ability and how so I don't think
they differ that much honestly my view and I know like a lot of people disagree because it's very broad
but my base belief from working magic and psychic ability like pretty much since I was a little kid
at least exploring it is that magical ability and psychic ability are the same thing like it's just
is it in reverse or forward you know are are you directing energy out to inform your environment or
are you receiving energetic information from your environment so it's input output you know and I think
you know a lot of the qualities that you would see that indicate that you're psychically gifted
would also indicate that you're magically gifted the problem is is that a lot of people end up
getting stuck in one or the other either you know output or input mode and so like I like I write
in the book you know like I have known many incredibly talented psychics that can give like the best life
advice really impressive information but they can't manifest for crap and likewise I've seen
magicians that can do like great feats of magic but they're like completely blocked off from any
sort of psychic ability or input or direction in their life and I think that like they both serve
each other you know like you need the guidance to help your direction with magic and I think magic
without that direction I don't know if I'm reading that clearly but I hopefully like that kind of
makes sense like I think that like aside from being able to feel the energies and interact more
directly with the spirits in the energy that you are working within magic I think that like things
like divination and like looking into things of like you know I do a lot of divination before I do
magic too you know of like is this the best way to do it you know I I'm not going to let a bunch
of cards bully me around but I am going to listen to their guidance of like oh no maybe I should move
my plan this way and go with this strategy first I hope that makes sense yeah no it absolutely
does I think I'm I'm one of those folks who magic started working for me almost right away when I
started doing it but I had to really open up more to the receiving information and even to this day
you know I rely a lot on divination on cardamansy and you know my joke is like I can't hear with my
pendulum you know and funny enough like sometimes even just putting it in my hand and getting into
that state allows the messages to come through and then I'm just confer oh did you say this yes no
you know yeah it really serves me like this is how it like serves me outside of magic it serves me in
training people in magic because like in person like when I'm teaching something fundamental like
a circle casting like one of the things that I'll do in person is I will cast a circle with the
people that I'm teaching inside the circle to feel the change in the energy and then I'll I'll
take it down and then I'll cast a circle with them outside of the circle with me inside of it to
feel the difference of energy and then when they go to do it aside from feeling those different
things like I have had this phenomenon that has come with like developing my clair audience where
like when a circle is cast properly I'll start to hear that tonight is ring until the circle's lifted
so I can tell energetically like if they cast it or not and that can help me to kind of like be like
okay well like let's let's work on this a little bit so so for my own magic that's also helpful too
because I know when the energy is flowing I know I think even even with magic you kind of naturally
start developing psychic ability at least a little bit when you call in spirits when when you call
in spirits and they come you feel them like there is a change in the atmosphere at the least you know
and I think it's hard to not notice that but it's one of those things of like you know that is a psychic
perception of something related to magic and I think psychic ability can help you be more precise and
make sure that everything's going according to plan and I think that like which was the point of my
second book mastery magic you know magic can be used to enhance your psychic ability you know so
you can essentially create this kind of circuit of like you know development that just kind of helps
you level up and level up and level up but as long as you're doing that that inner work and that
self-development I think that like that is incredibly important and that's why like I love hearing
like about the work you're doing I think that's really that's really cool and it's really needed
whether it's even for magic or not just you know in people's lives in general I think that's great
yeah thank you for that that means a lot and I want it to be accessible to people who don't who don't
work magic because it doesn't it doesn't have to be inherently magical like understanding the way that
are our human mind body system operates but but man if we're gonna do magic we better
we really better know it but I'll go ahead and I'll put myself on record is saying I'm
I'm one of those people who has a hard time detecting that change in the atmosphere
and actually like and I have called on spirits before and I've even begun to be able to
visually perceive them in you know in a scrying device like a like a crystal ball or glass ball in my case
but I rely a lot on like the pendulum to be like are you here is this you is your true name and then
you know the cards for the the messages and things like that so and I attribute that a lot to
my trauma response overall was desensitization my body just shut off after years of me essentially not
paying attention to it kind of yelling at me being like we don't like all these things are happening
to us and my being unable to protect me and my body from that and so I'm I would actually love to know
even for myself like what do you recommend for someone who who is on that path and is learning
magic and is communicating with spirits and has you know some successful results but still you know
sometimes feels a little like a fraud because it's like are they here I don't know yeah you know so
this goes into what I was saying about like how people are wired differently you know and it's not
just even naturally wired it's it's things like trauma it's things like neuro divergence you know
everyone's wired a little bit differently you know neuro divergence is a whole spectrum I am a
big proponent on you know because one of the things that I got a lot of feedback on with psychic which
was like oh I have the aphantasia and sometimes that's true sometimes it's not and they just had to
like keep working at it you know in the second book I do have techniques for if you do have aphantasia
or difficulty visualizing but like I'm like you're getting hung up on the visualization part right you're
getting hung up on that like I'm teaching all of these clairs for you you know I'm very big on
develop what your week at work on developing that know what your strengths are but then try to work
on your weaknesses so I have the opposite as you so like my trauma and my neuro divergence like it
makes me overly sensitive right so like I feel things atmospherically like quickly and I feel things
in other people quickly that doesn't mean that okay let me explain it a little bit different with
a different kind of reference so people tend to be surprised for example that like internal
clairvoyance was the hardest thing for me to but to develop visualization was the hardest thing for
me to develop I had to put a lot of work into it and it's still not my strength it's still not my
strongest of my clairs and of my senses so I don't think there's like a right or a wrong way of
like if you're not feeling the spirits in the room I don't think that's necessarily like you're not
psychic or you're not doing it correctly you know I think everyone has their strengths and their
weaknesses so for example your pendulum you know you're probably better at a pendulum than I am you
know because those are those are different psychic responses going on you know so like I think
that having divination there's a reason that divination developed so vastly and has been around for
so long is because it is that sort of like double checking on things you know and I do think that it
is a skill in itself and it is a psychic skill um I think I wrote it in in the psychic art of
tarot how I believe that like working with tarot for example just in general just working with it
is gonna make you more psychic it is going to just open those pathways naturally whether you intend to
or not and I think the same is true with a pendulum I think the same is true with magic I think
when you consciously put effort into developing things then you kind of have an advantage in those
though so and I'm not trying to say that like aphantasia is not real it is absolutely real you know
and difficulty with it is real but I think that a putting effort into things that you're not good at
but be also finding what works for you is very very important I don't know if I answered your question
or if I just went on a total tangent no I I think that was a great answer and I I actually like that
was really affirming for me to to know that just because I'm not good at perceiving things in one
way doesn't mean I'm not good at getting accurate information in the ways that I am yeah yeah no
that was that was super helpful I'd also like to chat about Claire audience too because we've had
a number of guests on the podcast who have dissociative identities or multiple selves within the body
and I'm curious for folks with that experience how would you discern let me back it up a little bit
let me talk about like voice hearing first off so there are folks who have like natural voice hearing
how do you trust what information I guess is coming like internally versus externally yeah so this is
one of the things that used to annoy annoy me for a while and confuse me for a while when I was
developing my psychic ability is there were a lot of teachers that there's an psychic ability that
would write or teach that you will never hear external voices if you ever hear external voices then
you need to go seek help and that is absolutely not true I have known so many other mediums and
psychics too that it's like yes there's absolutely phenomenon where you externally hear voices
as well as internal voices which is how it tends to happen more my baseline for this of like kind of
determining like is this a psychic phenomenon or is this something that may be out of my range of
expertise to to handle or speak on properly is a the nature of the voices you know like what are they
saying so are they are they belittling are they angry are they stressful or on the other hand are
they over flattering are they over grandizing I think either of those can be sort of a red flag
whether it is a psychic ability or not a psychic ability and I think either of those are kind of
like a check of like okay well somethings may not be completely copicetic with the information that's
coming through I think that I have kind of a weird kind of notion of differences as well when it comes
to spirits and people and things like that because I think we're all interconnected and we're all
intertwined a lot more than we realize I think the personality the ego personality is very big on
like I am a separate identity you know and I don't think that's always necessarily true on different
levels of reality which goes back to what I was saying about like demons and crawlies take on it being
like parts of your brain you know I think that like yes they are parts of our brain but that doesn't
mean that they're also external so I'm not an expert in these fields to be able to say what is or
isn't a clinical or a a certain diagnosis but I will say that like I think that it does get kind
of blurry unlike do these things overlap and what does that mean I think it's more about like
what is the spirit saying to you the voice that you're hearing what is it saying how is it presented
is this information something that can be verified something that's helpful something that
may even be challenging because it tells you that you're wrong you know which I've had many times
and it's very humbling but it ends up that yes a lot of times I am wrong about something you know
so I think it I think it depends I mean I think it's very case specific I'm also not an expert on like
multiple personalities or anything like that yeah I'm 100% with you on it being blurry and I actually
you know even based on some of the folks who are you know both have lived experience of dissociative
identities and are also clinicians like we had Katie Keach on last season who's both of those things
and the diagnostic process of that in traditional therapeutics is just like it's it's messed the F-Op
so like I'm not necessarily asking about like oh how do you know you need to diagnose this because
I take a much more sort of like holistic you know an indigenous informed look at things like like
actually you know multiple parts of souls like that can exist in a person and it doesn't need
to be a pathologized necessarily but I guess what I'm curious about is how if you if you experience
clair audience maybe you even experience like an abundance of clair audience because of of that
reason whether it's just having a door open to spirits or whether it's having multiple selves
how might you harness that for mastery and be able to use that the information that's coming to you
as a psychic gift like how do you train that ability how would you go about that it depends on if
your motive is spirit communication or whether it's receiving psychic information that presents
itself as a voice so this is also wait that's a fascinating distinction I hadn't even thought of that
so this is one of the things too is that like I think and this is going to sound super judgmental
and it's not meant to be judgmental it's just my personal observation and belief I think there's
a lot of talented mediums that are not mediums they're psychics and I think that like they're picking
up on information about the person's life or the person themselves and what they know about their
deceased person and very big on evidential mediumship that proves that you have connected with someone
that is past because the person sitting in front of you doesn't even have that information or it's
like unknown to anyone but you know there's ways to develop clair audience that I talk about in the
book such as listening exercises like one of the ways that I developed it was just listening super
slowly and that sounds really kind of lame but I picked it up from I think it it was something stupid
from my childhood some stupid movie that was about karate because like when I was a kid karate was
the big craze in all the kids movies you know but it was something about like meditating and listening
very very closely and listening closer and listening closer and so like I would do that as an
exercise of like well one all in like capable of hearing and that I would start getting information
that way and I would start being able to pick up on like windess spirit once my attention I am a
proponent of you know a lot of times also of having that kind of tinnitus sense that like tells me
a spirit's trying to tap me on the shoulder and it's a little bit different than tinnitus because I've
had it but it's a very specific pitch and always when I am like okay what like like what do you want
it stops you know which is always my confirmation that like this isn't just something going on with
my ears this is a phenomenon beyond anything like that wow that's a really helpful tip because I
every once in a while get a ringing in my ear but I've always attributed just to you know I lived in
New York for 10 years I make music you know sometimes very loud or whatever so yeah and tinnitus is a
real thing you know and it does happen kind of randomly but like next time that happens like just stop
and be like what's up like what do you what do you want to tell me and see if you may not even
pick up on what the information is right away but sometimes just acknowledging it if it disappears
right when you acknowledge it for me that's like yes a spirit's trying to contact me if I'm not
picking up clear-audiently on it you know I get I get kind of dumb with my spirits too you know I
am very big on like okay like here are the rules here are the guidelines this is how you need to
communicate with me it needs to be clear you know or also I'm not going to get the information
and so you're wasting your time I'm wasting my time but if something is trying to communicate
with you and you you don't feel like you were necessarily getting the information from them
to the nation that's when you go to divination you're like okay well like let's use a pendulum let's
use terror let's use rooms to try to form a dialogue here and let's say like there's someone who's
like the opposite of me like for me I've had to open up my sensitivity more but let's say that
there's like there's there are people out there who like have that overabundance of information
coming in and you just mentioned like one way is like to ask the spirits like to verbally dialogue
and say hey you need to make this clear or whatever but let's say for people who may have grown up like
again like afraid of their gifts you know like you were talking about especially like when there's
influences of like school or organized religion or bullying or things like that how would you
recommend a person start training to be able to turn that kind of overabundance of psychic flow
that may have been perceived throughout most of their life is something in this threatening because
it makes them different or whatever how would you recommend that they fine tune that into something
that they can use yeah yeah so that that's a great question and it's not just clear audience right
like it's a lot of it can be overwhelming including like you know like I have external clairvoyance
that's one of my strengths not internal about external like I see shadows I see lights I see
oras you know and that can be overwhelming and it can be exhausting at times too when you're just
trying to relax and chill so like a big part of like what I went to explore and learn in my psychic
training is how to turn that down and one of the techniques that I teach and psychic which well
there's kind of two ways right so like let me get a little anecdotal with this so I worked in
Salem for many many years as a professional psychic and terror reader and octobers are insane they
in less youth experience October in Salem you do not understand what I mean by it being insane but
it is insane like it's non-stop like you can barely walk on the street so you have tourists from all over
and as a as a reader it's literally back to back all day like day in day out day in day out and I
found myself like not just fatigued and burned out and stuff like that which I teach tyranny and
psychic which but like I found that like I couldn't shut it off afterwards like I was just on all day
and then I couldn't turn it off and it's like I need to rest and I'm not on the clock you know like
like business is done so one of the things that I did to kind of train that is I used the pevelovean
response right so like I started conditioning myself just like I would to tap into psychic ability
like I teach and psychic which so you don't have to go through all the things and you can just kind of
slip into it I did it for getting out of it too so I would use a ring a hematite ring and I would
program myself that like when I'd put it on like I'd be like I am not doing a readings I am not
psychically open the shop is closed every time I would start a reading I would take the ring off and
I would affirm to myself I am open for business I'm open for psychic ability so that kind of gate keeps
a little bit of like an on and off switch another technique that I teach in the book is treating it
like either a volume dial or like a faucet of information and using that empowered imagination
that visualization whether it's seeing it or feeling it or knowing it or affirming it to yourself
just this idea of like okay we need to like turn down the flow a little bit because sometimes it's
also too loud you know so you can't make out the information you need it just a little bit less a
little bit a little bit clearer and a little bit more precise so it can be helpful in that matter
so as you need to turn it up because you're like I'm just not getting it I'm not picking up on it
so I find those two specific techniques to be very very helpful particularly when it's like
clear audience things or clear-violence things or more intuitive things which I I link a lot of people
like refer to being an empath or the empath skills I associate that more with the intuition side of
things the psychic side of things because that's another thing that can be super intense and I come
across a lot of like and people that identify as empaths and even people who teach it and write
about it where I'm like okay but you're not a good empath feeling anything strongly does not mean
you're a good empath like learning your boundaries and learning how to like turn it off and not
internalize things is what makes you a good empath you know actually that's a great segue because
I know we were also going to chat about folks who have neurodivergence and how ADHD can affect
like even exercises like meditation I know for me you know I have struggled sometimes with sitting
down and training I find that I'm better at training magic when I'm actively working on a situation I
care about and like putting that energy there will kind of train my gifts automatically but yeah I'm
not I'm not gonna lie like I have trouble even doing a daily like grounding and centering or things
like that and so I'm curious like what are your recommendations for yeah for folks with that
that kind of neurodivergence yeah yeah I mean it can be really tough and before I jump into that you
mentioned something that like in mastery magic I drive home this idea of enthusiasm and sincerity
right those are gonna be your keys for magic and like both of those words have root etymologies
that are like magical or theologically related that a lot of people don't realize like enthusiasm is
to be installed by a god in theoism right enthusiasm is like the root of it um so I think that like
earnestly wanting to I don't think that there's necessarily a right or wrong way when it comes to your
practice as long as you're trying you have the enthusiasm you have the drive to do it which sometimes
you don't always and some teachers like I know Jason Miller is very big on like just do it whether
you want to do it or not just do it for me a lot of the feedback that I got for example was the
very first exercise in psychic which because of the way that I worded it which is like learning the
countdown and learning to count down from a hundred to zero three times in a row before moving on
and that's the word I should have used is before moving on so people didn't continue reading and
realizing like what I say later about it which is that like with meditation you treat it like a gym
you treat it like like lifting weights right so your mind wandering for example is not necessarily
doing it wrong that is the meditation recognizing that my mind has wandered and then pulling it back
is what strengthens that focus right so cutting it into bite sizes so like instead of doing the
hundred three times you know do ten once um and see if you can do that and then like as you get
better at that as your focus develops you know building on that for those of us who are got to get
our weakles out you know can't necessarily sit still and you know close our minds and have that
attention span while meditative exercises like I mentioned are going to help strengthen that
it can also be really helpful for the more ADHD minded to have something like the spiritual
technology that is in Catholicism and Buddhism and Hinduism which is like beads you know having
something to physically touch and physically do and physically move through while you do it and
in the second book I have that as one of the exercises to replace it so you you can down touching the
beads because then you give your your monkey mind something to play with something to touch another
thing that can be helpful is learning that meditation is not just sitting down it's not just stillness
it's not just clearing the mind and and having focused like for me the meditation that I'm the most
focused on is getting into the alpha brain wave state right which other people would say is the flow
state um and for some people that's going to be dancing for some people it's going to be art for some
people it's going to be like my husband he he crochets and he knits you know and that's his meditation
because it locks him into something that gets him into that flow state so I think it's okay to understand
that everyone is different and different things are going to work for different people so explore
you know put effort into things try things and then also realize when this isn't for me I need to
find something else I need to find something different that is going to work for me because your
practice in the end is your practice and the most important thing is not doing it right is having
it work having it work for you so I mean like as long as you can get yourself into that state
one of the things that like my husband talks about a lot and I talk about is that like as people
who are kind of naturally psychic and are naturally kind of tuned in as well as like both pretty
not neurodivergent a lot of these things we just know how to do like like I just I know how to
disassociate and get into that alpha state you know so a lot of our as teachers is learning how to
present this to neuro typical people or even neurodivergent people to kind of figure out oh this is
what we're doing in steps that it's like oh I can I can get to this place you know how do I teach
someone something that I can just do naturally and so that's been our big challenge over the years
as teachers and as writers because for me that's the alpha state is disassociating it's it's a focus
to defecation that was a huge breakthrough moment for me actually in like in developing my
pendulum work is naturally like when you work with a pendulum you have to really make sure that you're
not subconsciously influencing the answer by moving it and when I change from like train the alpha
state like this you know oh gotta do that you know too much grasping to realizing it was just like oh
just disassociate from your arm I was like oh trust me I know how to disassociate from body parts
well and I like I have this thing where like I don't even see my point of consciousness as being
in my head and like a lot of people are like really that's weird like I don't have a lot of internal
narration you know for me I feel more like a sim like I feel like I have this little like thing like
my thoughts my awareness is kind of more here and I channel it through my mouth and a lot of times I
don't even know what I'm saying until it comes out of my mouth like I have the general idea the general
concept and so for me I naturally know how to disassociate and feel and just kind of like expand out
you know and not everyone has that frame of reference or understands it but there are ways that you
can train yourself to reach those states but yeah it's all about like essentially you know I think a
lot of it is trying to point people in the direction of things you know all these things are
experiential they're all different mysteries is how we would frame it in witchcraft and mysteries
is like how I was talking about like with dreams you know this sort of like there's this genusic
quality to certain dreams that are prophetic or are a spirit visitation and well I can't
properly explain what that quality is if you've had an experience with it we can kind of talk about
it and kind of understand what it is I liken it a lot to psychedelic use this idea of like a going
on a mushroom trip or an acid trip you know before you have that experience you hear people talking
about it you see it presented in the media and you have this kind of idea of what that experience
is going to be like and then when you actually have the trip you're like oh this is nothing you
know this is not Alice in Wonderland this is not anything like I was experiencing and every every
person on earth is going to have a different experience of tripping and what it was like for them
and what their trip was but once you've had that experience you can talk about it to someone else
who's had it and you're both kind of on the same page because you've experienced the same mystery the
same experience and I think that like even alpha is like that you know it these these things are
essentially their techniques trying to push you in the direction is figuring it out for yourself
and what works for you yeah I couldn't agree more this has been such a wonderful conversation Mat
I'm gonna bring on Tommy to ask her question of you as we wrap up and we studied your book as you know
we studied your book for two months in our advanced container so I'm super excited to hear what Tommy
has asked today yeah well I'll be honest I kind of wanted to ask about the circle is podcasts since
I've started listening to that since we read the psychic which in our container but first of
like to know are there any plans for a season two in the near future for a circle is yes yes the
the the difficulty at the moment is Rachel and I are both working on projects on our own
um and it's pretty much a one-person show in the sense of like I do all the editing I do all the
like and if you you edit things you understand it's a lot of work it's a lot of work for every individual
episode and so like it's all about like just us getting to a point where we have the bandwidth
but we have every intention to keep it going we just at the moment have a lot going on but yes we
absolutely it's not over we should probably get rolling on that soon so since our co-host is famous
for being a fictional witch I'm curious say season two if you could have one actual fictional
witch on as a guest who would it be or what fictional witch would you want to learn from I don't know
about learn from but my answer would be Nancy from the craft that is my all-time favorite witchy icon
and you know like Rachel and I have talked about having her on because Rachel obviously knows her
their friends um so that is like possibility but like the craft was for me a spiritual experience
as a child that was being raised in a very extremely evangelical penicostal household being able
to see that and see magic portrayed as sort of like a more realistic still horseshit but in more
realistic manner and seeing like these girls become empowered and like use their magic to
get what they want you know um was very like oh like I want to be a witch too so for me it would be
Nancy I I am one of those people like I love the character Nancy so much that I will defend her
character to the death I can go on a whole long tirade about how Sarah is the villain in the movie
and you know that she is the anti she is the patriarchal anti-feminist wet blanket in the movie
yeah no I'm there's no surprise for me there that it's yet another witch from the craft that is
actually just listening to your omega institute retreats talk and talking about that child that
experience of finding the craft yeah like I just see it and it wasn't just the witchcraft I'm like
oh those girls are having so much fun together like I want to come and just gal pals we don't have to
I don't have to make people bleed from their eyes or anything like that yeah well and like you know
I was talking about being a child informing pavins like that's totally that was one of the big
inspirations for it and it was very like we had no idea what the hell we were doing but it is very
much like know your water and your fire you know like we had these I don't know it was silly but
did your childhood coven ever like did anything ever come of that or I could did they ever inspire
an experience that like oh we might have tapped into something there no not my childhood experiences
my first real experience was the story that I share in mastery magic of the beginning which I talk
about in the omega episode of like my grandfather and using that silver raven wolf spell the anti-bullied
bull frog spell and having that work with such real results was my moment of like oh maybe this
isn't like a playful pretend thing like maybe this is real that that was my moment but before that
like I don't think anything really came of me and my little girlfriends playing witches and
like is a feather stiff is a board like I think it was more of like that sort of natural inclination
like I was saying that kind of draw that that magnetism because even though my gateway was something
as silly as the craft you know it was still my first frame of reference for something like this
that wasn't like you know a green wicket witch I also come from like an evangelical background like
Midwest and you know I love hearing the craft did exactly what my church and my parents always
warned us about like you watch the craft you're gonna become a witch and you're gonna be in the devil's
hands and haven't met the devil or anything but which is so funny because then when you get in
witchcraft like a lot of things I would hear often is like oh you watch the craft and now you think
you're a witch so it's like the opposite end of the spectrum you know once you're in but yeah
that's why I'm so big on like yeah I did watch the craft and it did make me think I was a witch like
that's why I'm totally like open of like yes my first experiences my first love like author love
whistle for Raven Wolf was Scott Cunningham you know and I'm not ashamed of that at all I'm not
embarrassed you know like everyone starts somewhere and even with silver Ravenwolf like I remember
I think it was like six years ago maybe seven years ago it just has a fun experience I was like you
know what I think I'm gonna open teen witch and try every spell in it and see what happens and they
all worked and like say what you want about like any of you know these these 90s authors or whatever
but like silver Ravenwolf her shit works you know so you got to give her credit for that at least
it's better to start somewhere than not starting anywhere at all
amen yes thank you Mat that's everything I wanted to possibly know about fictional witches in your
relationship to them so lovely yeah yeah no I love me I mean also just as a gay man right so like
it's we love the witch archetype because like not just a witch like I love a badass woman
I love a bitchy woman I love a powerful woman you know I am in love with powerful women you know
maybe not romantically or like sexually but like and witches embody that right like even the wicked
witch even like these characters that are villains it's it's like my favorite genre of movie is
that good for her you know like like carry or like you know midsummer or the witch you know where it's
like okay the witch for example I didn't realize after I watched it that people thought it had a
bad ending and I was like really like I took something totally different from that movie like she was
free she was in power you know she was gonna get wish deliciously yeah she she got to live
deliciously and like to find out that like average every day non-magical people had a totally
different understanding of how that ended was really like kind of like oh we'd see things totally
different but yeah I I love me an empowered woman and a witch is absolutely the most empowered woman
whether it's good or bad she's gonna get what she wants you know and I think that's awesome and I
love that so having a love of the occult and that kind of gay man aspect of like you know standing
women I think that's why I love Nancy so much too right I mean other than like the goth aesthetic
which I love as well well thank you again so much Mat for coming and joining us today and so once
again I want to encourage everyone listening out there psychic which is an amazing book it's gonna
take you through the exercises that Mat lays out for you to develop and train your psychic ability
because no matter what gifts you may start with or maybe you feel like you're not starting with many
at all this is something that can be trained and here at the Re-Patterning Project and the Re-Patterning
Podcast we believe in training our minds your mind body system is your domain and programming it
is your birthright so thank you and again Mat where can people find you and what are the things
that we should look forward to coming out from you in the near future yeah so I'm very big on like
hush hush on future projects but there are things in the work there are things contracted I treated
like magic because it is so you know until it's manifested I don't I don't talk about it um you
can find me on orin.net a you are yn.net I'm all over pretty much every social media the ones I'm the
most active on is instagram and facebook but I prefer instagram honestly these days yeah yeah me too
well thank you again so much for joining us thank you to all who are listening out there thank you
for joining us and as a reminder once again you can support us on patreon at patreon.com/3patroning
podcast for just five dollars a month that's get to access to our discord server come and join
our community and again the next round of the Repatting Project begins September 13th so if you
are looking to repattern your own mind body system why not come and join and do it with us and on
that note we'll see you again soon thank you for listening to the Repatting Podcast if you're
curious about the Repatting Project the eight-week course in mental mastery and creative freedom that
inspires these conversations you can check out more details at the RepattingProject.com we run a
cohort twice a year or you can download the self-study version of the course and get started today
we also offer a four-week course on narrative magic and archetype titled myths and magic changing
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Parlor on discord you can sign up for five dollars a month at patreon.com/3patroningpodcast thanks
to everyone who makes the Repatting Podcast possible firstly our award-winning producer Tommy Trembath
of the key master collective network of podcasts she also produces transcending comics vision
in the void and giant-sized violence thanks also to animation studio mortis and madriacs who created
the video for our introduction as well as to Andrew Means who composed and produced our theme music
and also thanks to al alvarez who took the photos of yours truly that you see on the cover of each
episode if you're watching the video version and finally thanks to you our listeners who give meaning
to this work our greatest wishes that whatever you've heard today inspires you to live freely
and begin creating your reality from the inside out thanks for tuning in and we'll see you again soon
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