1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,560
Credibility is really currency for ourselves, for the members.

2
00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:08,600
I think our job is not to create certainty where it doesn't exist.

3
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:14,480
This is Real State, a podcast from CSG South.

4
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:21,920
Join us as we talk with policymakers and public leaders shaping state level decisions across the South

5
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,800
and explore how ideas move from policy to real impact.

6
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:35,840
Hello, welcome to Real State, and I'm your host, Lindsey Gray.

7
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,200
Recently, we have the privilege of recording a few real-state episodes at the Southern Legislative

8
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:47,440
Conference. This is where legislative leaders and professional staff from across our 15 member states

9
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,160
and beyond have gathered to share ideas and strengthen state government.

10
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,360
One topic that comes up repeatedly, whether we're talking about leadership,

11
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,520
policy making, or public trust, is credibility.

12
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:07,760
In today's environment, institutions are often judged before people even walk through the doors.

13
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,640
That makes credibility one of the most valuable assets any public servant can build,

14
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,040
not only for themselves, but for the state governments that they represent.

15
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,880
Joining me are two staff leaders from the Missouri Senate, who think about

16
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:28,880
credibility from different, but complementary perspectives. Patrick Baker is the Senate

17
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,720
administrator for the Missouri Senate and oversees many of the operational and administrative functions

18
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,960
that help the Senate serve both the legislators and to the public.

19
00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:45,200
Josh Norberg serves as assistant director of Senate research, where he helps lawmakers

20
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:52,320
develop sound public policy and provides non-partisan research and analysis throughout the legislative process.

21
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,080
Patrick, Joshua, thanks for joining us and welcome to real-state.

22
00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,280
Thanks for having us. Thank you.

23
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:06,720
Let's begin with a broad question. When you hear the phrase "build credibility in public service,"

24
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,240
what does that mean to each of you? Patrick, let's start with you.

25
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,720
Credibility is really currency for ourselves, for the members.

26
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:20,400
The in the Missouri Senate, I serve as the administrator and including the members

27
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:30,400
and their staff. It's a 200-person organization, and so we have credibility inside the organization,

28
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:36,880
right, because it's a business as well as a legislative body. And so we have to function,

29
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,360
we have HR and we have accounting department, and we have to work together as colleagues.

30
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,960
And then we work and serve at the pleasure of the members of the Missouri Senate.

31
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:53,920
And so for them, their credibility has an institution and currency with each other, right?

32
00:02:53,920 --> 00:03:00,080
If they are not trusted by their colleagues early on in their career, it taints that relationship.

33
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,080
So it's the currency in which we trade day to day.

34
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,960
Josh, you spend much of your time supporting the policy process itself.

35
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,920
How do you think about credibility from that perspective?

36
00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:17,040
So yeah, I'm in the Senate research office, and what we do is really help the legislators in that,

37
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:23,680
their priorities through the legislation. And so what I really think it's about is them trusting your

38
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:31,280
judgment. That comes from a process where you are reliable every day, you show up and you work hard,

39
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:37,280
you tell them honestly what you think the problems are, what their priorities are,

40
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,680
and you follow through on your commitments and you have humility to say, I don't know when you don't know.

41
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,840
And so over time when you do that, that builds credibility, I feel like it's more of a feeling

42
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,560
than an evidence base. It's evidence-based, but it's not based on your degree or

43
00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:01,840
where you came from. It's based on them seeing you help them navigate the process all the way through.

44
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:09,040
And so if they can't trust your judgment, then that's really, you know, what are we doing there?

45
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:15,200
You know, we're there to help them. And so they need us to be credible. And they want us to be

46
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,800
and they're looking for it. People often say credibility isn't something you're given. It's something you

47
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:27,680
earn, Patrick, in legislative leadership, what actions actually build credibility with members,

48
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:33,760
staff and stakeholders over time? Yeah, I don't think there's a shortcut. I think it is, it's the key

49
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:40,320
there is time. It's being honest about what you're going to deliver and how you're going to deliver,

50
00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:47,920
and then what you're going to deliver. Managing those expectations for me with my two

51
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,640
constituencies that I mentioned earlier, you have the staff and you have the membership.

52
00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:02,640
And then the members interact with their colleagues. And so you have to, as Josh said, sometimes

53
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:10,960
we have to say, I don't be afraid to say, I don't know. If you provide inaccurate information,

54
00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,960
sometimes it can be viewed as malicious like you have an agenda or you're too eager to just

55
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:24,880
answer the question. And so I have to, when folks come in my office, I have to remind myself, I don't

56
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:30,480
know what their intent is by their question. And I shouldn't really assume that I need to

57
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:38,800
ask the questions I need to ask. And if that means that I have to take more time to get back to

58
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:44,000
them and answer the question, then that's what needs to happen. So I can provide them the best

59
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:50,480
answer possible. Is there a moment in your career where you realized credibility could take years

60
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:58,160
to build, but only moments to lose? Yes, but not in the traditional sense. I think when we think,

61
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:06,880
when we hear that question, I think back to a few years ago, trust was, trust was given to me as an

62
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:13,600
example of marbles in a jar, right? And we have to have a relationship and we build that relationship

63
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:20,640
over years. And for every act that we have that's good, you get a jar and you get a marble in my jar

64
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:29,920
and vice versa. And then in one swift act of defiance or maliciousness, that trust can just be

65
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:36,160
eroded, that jar just gets knocked off the table and then all the marbles are scattered. But

66
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:44,640
I realize to your question, I realized that that can be lost, not in that manner, but in Missouri,

67
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:54,320
we have term limits. And so it's not that the trust was lost. Sometimes it's not present. And that's not

68
00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:01,360
maliciousness on the person I'm interacting with, that they don't know me. And so why I may have

69
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:07,760
taken it for granted that next year's my 27th legislative session and it's my 10th as administrator.

70
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:16,720
And I know that I do, or I believe that I do well for the body. And then I've interacted with past

71
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:23,040
senators very well or done a good job for them. I've never interacted with this senator or their staff

72
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:30,720
member. And it's not that they don't trust me. It's that the trust or the credibility isn't present

73
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:40,720
yet. And so term limits vacates that credibility sometimes, but not in that traditional sense. It's

74
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,760
not that I've lost it. It's just that I have zeroed out and I have to earn it again with the new member,

75
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:52,960
are there staff? And Josh, let's talk about policy. Legislators face increasingly complex issues

76
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,560
from artificial intelligence to cybersecurity to work for shortages. How do professional staff

77
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,640
ensure legislators receive information they can trust, especially when there's no shortage of

78
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,000
competing data and opinions? Well, I think it just takes into

79
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:15,040
a little discipline really. In our office, we we use primary sources as much as possible,

80
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:21,200
especially with the emergence of technologies like AI. There's not always a definitive answer,

81
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,360
you know, in a legal field, you know, you hear lawyers all the time saying, well, it depends.

82
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,800
And that really is true. And so I think our job is not to create certainty where it doesn't exist.

83
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:39,120
Our job is to tell them what we know, tell them what we don't know and help them navigate what the

84
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:45,520
trade-offs are. And, you know, they need information, but they don't want us to make it up, right? They're

85
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:52,880
trying to make the best policy they can. And so, you know, we just just have to stay disciplined and

86
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,680
not give in to pressure to try to give an answer if you think that there is one or if there's not one.

87
00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:07,520
And so, you know, I just think you need to stay in your lane and keep your eye on the ball and not

88
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,520
make it up basically because they can smell that and they're always paying attention. And they need

89
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:20,640
you to be the anger there for, you know, reliable information. How important is it that legislative

90
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:26,720
staff remain trusted as non-partisan experts, regardless of which party is in control?

91
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:33,360
Well, it's everything. I mean, legislatures are permanent institutions, but the legislature

92
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:41,520
legislator is coming to go. So the minute we break the trust, then, you know, it's kind of over,

93
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:47,680
you know, for, you know, leaders have a responsibility, especially in our roles.

94
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,040
There's a lot, there's layers to credibility, right? I have my credibility as an individual, but we have

95
00:09:53,040 --> 00:10:01,360
it as an office as well. And so, I think us as leaders have to, you know, enforce that non-partisan

96
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,960
ship, especially. We tell all of our new staff. That's one of the first things we tell them,

97
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,960
how the importance of maintaining neutrality. We don't really do social media. We don't, of course,

98
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,120
we have opinions, but we don't post them. We don't talk about them. We don't get our way.

99
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:24,560
So as leaders, we need to do that because if one person in your office, you know, violates that

100
00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:29,120
trust, then it can impact everyone else in the office. I could be the most credible person there,

101
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,400
and they'll still distrust us because, you know, they had, you know, some incident with someone. So,

102
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:41,040
it's really the most important part of what we do, because without that, everything else just,

103
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,800
you know, goes by the wayside.

104
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:49,440
CSG South brings together not only elected officials, but also the professional staff who makes

105
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:56,240
legislatures function every day. Patrick, what role do professional staff play in strengthening

106
00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:04,800
the credibility of an institution? You know, the senators rely on the answers that we may look up

107
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:11,760
for them, but also it's not just our interaction with the senators. The legislative activities

108
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:18,000
isn't solely contained within the legislature. The governor's office, for example, gets to weigh in

109
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,080
on whether or not there's going to be a veto, and because the governor gets to say there in the

110
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:28,560
matter, the governor gets to say during the process. And so often the senators are interacting with

111
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:37,760
the executive branch departments. And so, you know, building that credibility without bias is

112
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:43,440
important. And we have to realize that when the senators come in and ask us questions,

113
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:51,440
they, they're taking that information and they're going and they're using it. And so,

114
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:57,360
if we presume why they're asking, if we presume intent, we presume an outcome, we might introduce

115
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:04,240
our own bias. And so, we have to explore the topic with them. I've not always been the administrator

116
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:11,920
of the Senate. Point in my career, I was a lobbyist. I did work for private associations. I worked

117
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:19,520
for the executive branch and departments. And I've received briefings from staff. And we had a

118
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:27,840
staff member, although not intentionally, appeared unsure or was guessing in a manner,

119
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:34,000
so to speak, about the information they were providing. And they got stopped by their supervisor.

120
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,280
They said, okay, you can't do that. Patrick's internalizing the information. He's getting ready to go

121
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:45,520
across the street and brief, you know, XYZ official. They're going to use that information. So,

122
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,760
this is our time to get it right. So, we have to stop. We have to make sure we get it right.

123
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,120
So, in our role now, I don't take that for granted. When they come and they're asking about

124
00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:02,320
the process, how this legislative process works, I don't presume what they're going to do with it.

125
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:08,640
I just have to know that I've given them the right information or I'm directing them to the right

126
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,560
person. And honestly, sometimes they forget what my role is, my role is not legislative. And they'll

127
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:22,080
come and ask me a question about policy. And I have to be careful not to cross that line. So,

128
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:29,200
I in my past life helped shape policy. I don't do that now. I work equally for the majority of

129
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:35,600
minority members. And I have to stay in my lane. And I have to direct them toward the Senate

130
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,160
Research Department or the Center Appropriations Department to help them with those policy questions.

131
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,800
If it's a process question, I have to direct them toward the Secretary of the Senate.

132
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:52,480
And so, by not venturing outside my lane, then I gain that credibility with the members.

133
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,280
And Josh, would you add anything to that from the Research and Office perspective?

134
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,920
Lizzie, I think the only thing I would really add is just the importance of continuity.

135
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:09,200
We've got a lot of staff. We've got decades of experience. And we've been lucky enough in our office

136
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:16,800
to keep people around long enough to gain institutional knowledge. And I think of the role of staff

137
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,520
as like the bones of the place, right? We're not the muscle. We're not meant to be seen. We don't

138
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:28,400
move the body, but we're there to help the things stand up straight. And so, we keep everything

139
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:36,960
going, but we're not there other than to help them. And so, we use our, you know, we have

140
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,080
term limits in Missouri. I know some other states in the South do as well. The legislature's come

141
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:48,320
from all sorts of walks of life. And so, we're the ones who retain a lot of the knowledge and the

142
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:55,440
policy expertise. And so, we can, you know, issues come and go, they come back up. We can tell them

143
00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,240
what the historical context is, what we've tried before, what the pitfalls were. And so, I think

144
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:06,560
developing that and, you know, building that into the institution is crucial for helping them do

145
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:14,160
their jobs. In an era of social media and rapid news cycles, what practices help ensure that speed

146
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:20,640
does not come at the expense of accuracy or integrity. And how do you help your message break through

147
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:27,280
the noise? Patrick, we'll start with you. For us, it's consistency. So, we have a process that's

148
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:34,800
followed in the Missouri Senate. And those rules are set down by the body itself or by the administration

149
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:41,920
committee. And that's a member. Member committee, standing committee, it has three members of

150
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:47,440
the minority, two of the minority, the rules are voted on by the body. And all these things guide us

151
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:54,000
through what our process should be. And so, by following that every time after a bill is perfected,

152
00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,240
it has to be engrossed, which means it has to be read by staff to ensure that changes were made

153
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:07,280
properly, that it is perfected and it reflects the intent of the body. And so, by following those

154
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:13,360
steps every time, we gain credibility with the membership, we gain credibility with the public that

155
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:20,160
we're going to have a hearing, we're going to follow the open records, or the public meeting laws,

156
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:26,640
we're going to give 24 hour notice. Those things build credibility, that consistency that it can

157
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:36,000
be relied upon. Slowing down the process, we don't have laptops in the Missouri Senate for. We don't

158
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,840
have electronic voting. The idea is that the members still have to pick up a piece of legislation and

159
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:47,520
I have to read that legislation. They have to understand it. And it's not just something that's

160
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:56,400
pushed out to them that they ignore, that it's a physical copy. And that there are still those

161
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:04,000
traditions that we follow. And we follow them with inconsistent manners. And hopefully that

162
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,320
provides us the same credible product every time. And Josh, anything to add?

163
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:16,560
I think it comes down to preparation really. In our office, we have a lot of deadlines. Some

164
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:23,120
reasonable some that have. This are policy colleagues across the seven states couldn't test to.

165
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:28,880
We have bill filing deadlines, so they don't care if you have a hundred other things to do if they

166
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:35,040
ask you the day before for bill, you get it done. We have we draft amendments on the fly on the floor

167
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:40,080
and they want them because they want to stand up and offer them. So you need to be quick. But

168
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:50,160
but I don't think that you need to sacrifice accuracy for speed. If you prepare, you don't get

169
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,920
speed by taking shortcuts or skipping work. You do the work beforehand and that allows you to be

170
00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:02,000
quick when you're asked and when you're called on. At the same time, you need to resist the pressure

171
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:08,080
sometimes to be quick and tell them, well, I need a minute to think about this or this is going to

172
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,760
take a little more time than you want. Because sometimes that's the most credible thing to do. If,

173
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:21,200
you know, I'm not going to, you know, do something, you know, it's less than my best quality so that I

174
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,640
can get it out. I want it to be the best thing because that's what they're going to remember. I'm

175
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,800
not going to remember that they got it five minutes later. They're going to remember. I got exactly

176
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:36,640
what I asked for. The time horizons are sometimes not as tight as they imagine them to be. And so,

177
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:43,040
like Patrick said, we're a slow moving floor. We breed our amendments or we have them physically

178
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:49,920
distributed. So there's always time they can always stand up. And so if you do need to take the time

179
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:56,960
and support to do it, but also if you're not prepared, that's not an acceptable way to ask for time, right?

180
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:04,480
Do the work beforehand have a process set up? You know, I in my policy role, I do tax policy.

181
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:10,720
And if I'm asked to do a tax credit, I don't think about, but what do I need for this tax credit? I've

182
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:16,000
thought up beforehand. What do I need in general to draft a tax credit? So I take what I'm given,

183
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,320
I can just plug it into the process and get it done quicker than if I'm doing everything from,

184
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,400
you know, reinventing the wheel every time. So I think if you have a process that works for you and

185
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:30,400
you've done the work, you can have both speed and accuracy. But again, don't, I don't think you

186
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,240
ever need to sacrifice one for the other. Healthy disagreement is part of democracy. People

187
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:42,960
won't always agree on policy outcomes. But Josh, how can lawmakers maintain credibility with constituents who

188
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:50,080
strongly oppose a particular vote or policy? Yeah, I don't think credibility requires agreement.

189
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:57,520
I think what voters want is a fair process, right? They, of course, you're always going to have,

190
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,080
you know, a single issue voter or something like that if they disagree, you're lost to them, right?

191
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:08,080
But I think if the process is fair and you give people a chance to be heard and you take them

192
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,960
seriously and you acknowledge the opposing viewpoints and everything's done out in the open,

193
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:21,120
people can accept maybe something they didn't quite want, right? But it's when you start doing things

194
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,440
in the dark or your forced things through, that's when people's hackles gets raised.

195
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:33,200
And so I think people just want to be treated fairly. The credibility comes from treating people

196
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,680
fairly. It's not from, you know, having 100% voting record with one group A or group B, right? So

197
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:46,480
I think the importance of, you know, budding people get to committee and, you know, have

198
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,280
the appropriate time for testimony and giving opposition time on the floor to voice their

199
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:57,040
displeasure or what, you know, I think that's the crucial component that we need to keep our eye on.

200
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,880
Patrick, how should public officials respond when they make a mistake? What distinguish

201
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,720
she is a response that rebuilds credibility from one that erodes it further in your opinion?

202
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:15,920
Lindsey, there's a word for how Senators should act. It's called being Senatorial. I think members can

203
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:24,000
interpret that however they want. I know it when I see it. The short answer is they could be honest.

204
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:31,840
But I tell them you need to be Senatorial. If they question what does that mean, I tell them they

205
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,480
already know what it means. They know what it means to be Senatorial. If they stop and they reflect

206
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:43,040
about the actions they've taken or the actions they're about to take. And so if they made a mistake,

207
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:49,600
be honest about it. A few times over the last couple of years, I've been really proud of the

208
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:56,480
Senate body. I can't even tell you the bill issues at the moment because I don't try to pay attention

209
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,600
to in that way. I pay attention that they're debating. The debate hasn't stopped because when it

210
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:08,720
stops, there's a problem either. There's a problem legislatively, procedurally, or there's a problem.

211
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,920
Our microphones aren't working, right? But they debate and as long as they're debating, the process is

212
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:20,720
working. If they've made a mistake and they're honest about it, the times that I've been the most

213
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:26,400
proud of the body is that the next day unbeknownst to me, there's a motion to reconsider about they

214
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,120
took the next the previous day. And I asked someone and they said, well, we discovered a mistake in the

215
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:38,000
bill. They've talked to everyone, including the senators who opposed the bill or voted against it.

216
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,320
Everyone's in agreement, they're going to roll back the bill. They're going to make the change,

217
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,000
they're going to fix the mistake, and they're going to revoke the bill and no one's going to

218
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,680
stand in the way. They're going to honor the action the body took to pass the bill. And they're not

219
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,560
going to renew a filibuster or they're not going to stand in its way as we try to fix it because

220
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:05,040
they've come to the decision as a body that they may not be in agreement that the bill should have

221
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,600
passed, but as individual members, they're not going to stop it because the bill is going to go

222
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,800
forward and it should be at least the best that it can be. And so I've been very proud they've

223
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,640
done that several times in the last couple of years. It's a disc hovered mistake. And so to me,

224
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:26,000
that's the epitome of being a senator is they are acting senatorial.

225
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:32,000
Without getting into specific legislation, are there practices within the Missouri Senate that you

226
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,520
believe consistently strengthen institutional credibility? Things that have become part of the

227
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,040
culture rather than just policy. Patrick, we'll start with you. Yeah, early in my career,

228
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:50,400
I worked for an individual senator and it was chair of a committee. And at opposing senator

229
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,120
come in and she asked for a copy of a committee substitute that hadn't yet publicly been distributed

230
00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:02,000
and I gave her a copy. And after she left someone in the room said, you give her copies of confidential

231
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:10,560
substitute and I said, sure, she'll see it soon enough. And if it helps us speed up questions when

232
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,440
we come to perfection, but on the floor, all the better we are. Because by not giving it to her,

233
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:24,720
I upset her and I could damage our odds of passing a bill. In the Missouri Senate,

234
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:31,200
if a senator walks onto the floor and asks any staff member, it doesn't matter if they're non-partisan

235
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,880
staff, it doesn't matter if they're partisan staff, the partisan staff is a opposing party. The senator

236
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:43,920
walks in and asks any staff member what bill we're on, what amendment we're on, which substitute we're on,

237
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:51,280
what this bill does, what does this amendment do? That staff answers them honestly. And I have not

238
00:24:51,280 --> 00:25:00,240
found a case where that's not true in my 27 years of being legislature. And it's something that I've had

239
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:06,320
new staff come in and comment to me on that they've noticed it and that they're very impressed by it,

240
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:12,560
that their boss can walk onto the floor, ask a question of the most partisan staff member of the

241
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:19,440
opposing party and they'll get an honest answer. It's something that is so easy to just lie to them

242
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,480
or not answer because you don't like them, you don't like the politics and partisan staff

243
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:33,920
answer that question honestly. And so it's something that's ingesting grained. The members may fight,

244
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,560
but the staff or the members might fight or disagree, but the staff

245
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:46,320
answer those questions honestly. So it gives credibility through all the staff whether partisan or not

246
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,280
that we're going to be honest and forthcoming with senators when asked questions. And Josh,

247
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,640
same question for you. What practices within the Senate do you believe strengthen institutional

248
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,560
credibility? I think the ultimate goal and for institutional credibility is really to create an

249
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:08,640
institution that outlasts any single individual that's codified in our, you know, turn limits,

250
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:17,600
but also that applies to staff as well. I think Patrick's mentioned we have very specific rules

251
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:24,800
and processes we follow. In our office we have a rigorous review process where everything that we

252
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,760
draft is viewed by more than one or two people before it even gets to the floor and goes through that

253
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:36,160
process. So we have every department in our building has an incredibly professional staff with,

254
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,440
I've not done the math, but it's got to be, you know, decades and decades of experience. And I think what,

255
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,040
you know, a credit to Patrick and his time as an administrator he sees really made a concerted

256
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,640
effort to kind of ensure that the goal of the leader is not to have your name on the door. It's to

257
00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:00,240
make sure that when you're not there anymore that the place goes on as it did before. And hopefully

258
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,240
better than when you got it. So there's a lot that we do that we don't really think about anymore. And

259
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:11,280
that's when it becomes culture, right? So we just do things that way because that's the right way to

260
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:17,280
do them. And I think that's what gives the members the confidence that they can come in. They know

261
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,400
if they talk to the secretaries at the dias, they're going to be doing their job properly. They know

262
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,800
when they talk to research, they're getting the best possible answer they can get. If they go see

263
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,680
Patrick, he's going to tell them what they need, whether they can do it or not. And it has nothing

264
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,560
to do with who they are. So I think that lets them do their job, which is why we're there. And they

265
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:42,560
don't have to think about those things. And I think that ultimately leads to the best possible

266
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:48,480
policy outcomes because they can really focus on that. And I think we've all done a good job

267
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,480
of working on that. And it takes the concerted effort by everyone involved.

268
00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:01,040
For newer legislators and staff members, what habits or principles are most important for establishing

269
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,600
a reputation for credibility early in their careers? Patrick?

270
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:13,760
I know I sound like a broken record, but it's be honest. If you know, if you don't know,

271
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:21,440
you find out the answer and you take that time, I've watched centers of the opposing party

272
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:32,560
ask their colleagues of questions about insurance. We only have what two or three lawyers in the

273
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:38,800
Missouri Senate amendment. And so they get certain questions deferred to them by the criminal

274
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,760
justice code. And they don't necessarily ask their colleague, that's a fellow Republican or their

275
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,160
colleague that's a fellow Democrat, they'll ask them because they're attorneys. We might only have

276
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,920
one senator that knows or in their everyday life deals with banking, right? And so they become

277
00:28:53,920 --> 00:29:02,160
the subject matter expert. And the members respect that. And so you become a known quantity.

278
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:08,320
You know, we have a, we have a partisan staff member who used to be non-partisan staff.

279
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:19,120
He is the subject matter expert in the state of Missouri for the foundation formula for education.

280
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:28,080
His answers are trusted so much that the sitting governor has placed him on a commission

281
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:36,400
to evaluate the current foundation formula. It's, so he is the expert and there of opposing parties.

282
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:44,560
Because this staff member is honest every time a elected official comes and asks him. He'll answer

283
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,680
the questions for representatives and centers alike. Parsons, staff, non-partisan, staff, and I have

284
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,520
a honest conversation with you. Even though you might be taking an information and trying to

285
00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:05,120
craft an amendment, uh, that is party opposes. He recognizes, um, that the information he has,

286
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:13,840
is vital, but he doesn't hold it hostage, right? He, he equally shares it with all people in the state

287
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:21,920
when asked, um, to help try to find a solution for them. Uh, and that, I'd point to him, I point him out

288
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:28,320
to our new members and our new staff to say he's an example of what we all should be striving for,

289
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,840
right? That there is no bias in his answers. Here are the facts. This is what the formula does.

290
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,840
Yeah. This is what we did in the eighties. This is what we did in the nineties. If you do this, you're,

291
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:47,440
you're, you know, essentially double-hold harmless, uh, etc. And so, um, he, he doesn't take that

292
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,200
for granted that he holds that information, but he doesn't hold it hostage either.

293
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:57,360
And Josh, I'm going to toss the same question to you. What habits or principles are most important

294
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,560
for people involved with the general assembly? That helped, you know, boost credibility early.

295
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:09,120
I think particularly for staff members, um, I would, I would focus on being prepared, organized,

296
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,360
and unfollowed through, right? Um, it's a really easy in our roles to get overwhelmed by workload.

297
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:23,120
Um, particularly as session moves on and things are moving quickly. Um, I think if you create a process

298
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,760
for yourself, whatever that looks like, I have one for myself that may or may not work for someone else.

299
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:34,480
But if you can eliminate as many decision points as you can, then you increase your bandwidth,

300
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:41,920
right? I, you know, you need to be prepared. Um, no one expects new staff members to be policy

301
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,840
experts on their first day or the first year or the first five years, really. Um, but if you're not

302
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:54,320
prepared or organized, people can sense that immediately. And, um, I think that, um, people

303
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,200
are always paying attention. They're willing to forget that on a spec miracles. They're willing to,

304
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:06,560
you know, forgive you for saying, I need to go look that substantive topic up. But if you can

305
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:15,200
be prepared and be organized, then it all becomes easier. Um, and follow through, I think is maybe

306
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,800
even more important because when you tell a legislator, well, I'm going to look that up and I'll get

307
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,680
right back to you. Go do it, right? Don't sit on it for a week and be like, Oh, yeah, I'll,

308
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,360
I'm still working on that. You know, if you have a free moment, go do it and get it to them. Don't,

309
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:38,080
don't just sit. Um, I think people, when you tell somebody is particularly in our jobs, if you tell

310
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200
them you're going to do something, they expect you to have it done because they're relying on you

311
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,800
to do it. They, they're not going to forget and expecting you to just not come back to them. So

312
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,760
I think if you do those things, you're going to build a reputation for yourself. Um, it's not just

313
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,520
a member that's paying attention. That's, you know, your superiors, your, you know, every senator that

314
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,560
people talk in the building, of course. Um, so people are paying attention and they know when you're

315
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:08,480
prepared, they know when you're reliable and it has nothing to do with your policy expertise. Um,

316
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,440
of course that comes with time experience, but the other stuff or things you can do on day one

317
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,720
and you make things so much easier on yourself by doing them. And so I found that to be very helpful

318
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:25,520
in my career. Patrick, looking ahead five to 10 years, what do you think will be the greatest

319
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:31,920
challenge to maintaining credibility in public service? And what gives you optimism that it can be met?

320
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,880
You know, I struggled with this one, Lindsey. Um, so I'm a, I'm a gen X in maybe a cusp, uh, I'm an

321
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:46,640
X in you born late enough in the gen X that I identify with them, but late enough that I still embrace

322
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,400
technology, but I probably sound like a boomer when I say AI, right, or social media, like these are

323
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:59,040
things that challenge our credibility because you, you're on the defensive. It's, uh, well, I found

324
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:06,240
this online, right? Um, or AI tells me this, right? I don't know, I don't know where they've gotten

325
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:12,560
the answer. I'm not saying AI's wrong, right? Or they can't do what it does very well on things

326
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:19,600
that I've seen it do. But simply because it's, it's, it's, it's online, uh, doesn't make it the truth,

327
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,880
right? I think of that commercial, uh, uh, I'm a French actor, Bonjour, right? And he's clearly not

328
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:32,400
French. And it's like the, what gives me optimism is that, uh, hopefully we're still here doing this

329
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:40,480
job and that we're verifying it, um, and that, that verification of the information is what's going to,

330
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:47,040
you know, pull us through that. I think AI can do certain things very well, um, but social media has

331
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:54,240
a lot of information out there and someone still has to shift, uh, sit through the, uh, the, the,

332
00:34:54,240 --> 00:35:01,840
the fog and the noise and find that truth, um, on the facts and verify it, um, for the members to use.

333
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,080
And so we have a dedicated research department to help those members craft or legislation,

334
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:14,240
dedicated approach, appropriations department to help them draft budget bills. Um, and so

335
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:22,320
technology will advance it, a pace that I can't even imagine and AI will, will find its place,

336
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,320
eventually in our legislative process. I'm sure of that, um, but you still have to be there,

337
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:36,800
right? We have presentations on it here at CSG South, um, and it's trust but verify, right?

338
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:43,040
So someone still has to verify it. So I am optimistic that we'll still be needed that, uh, AI won't be

339
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:51,040
able to replace us, um, and that because we built, uh, a credible, uh, senate staff that will still be

340
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:57,840
utilized. And Josh, I think we're both millennials and on the millennial, Jinx Cusp. So how does this

341
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,800
resonate for you when looking, you know, five to 10 years ahead? At the risk of being redundant,

342
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,720
Lindsay, I think I have to also say kind of technology and information overload, um, and being able

343
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:15,520
to decipher and pick out what is important. Um, you know, we've got unprecedented access to

344
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,480
amounts of information and the speed at which you can get it. Um, and that makes it incredibly

345
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,320
difficult. You know, if I need two hours to go look something up, a member can go to AI and get a

346
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,840
result to go to Twitter and see someone saying what they want to hear and that takes, you know, 10 seconds.

347
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:39,280
So, um, I think that's probably the biggest challenge is breaking through that. And, you know,

348
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:47,040
Patrick and I were discussing, um, a number earlier who was upset about a potential policy change.

349
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:52,960
We were contemplating in the senate and, um, you know, they had heard it was going to, you know, cost one

350
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,480
thing or it was going to be one thing and, um, you know, all it takes is to sit down and say, well,

351
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,080
here's why it's not. And I can, you know, if you walk them through that, that's useful. And I think

352
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:11,520
that's also part of the optimism is, um, I think technology and AI makes judgment more valuable,

353
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:17,040
not less. You know, you hear about people drafting those of AI and if you can tell, right? These are not

354
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:24,720
the tools are not there yet and even once they do get there, um, you still need someone to evaluate

355
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:29,280
the, you know, what is important in these, you know, if it's policy research, you know, what do the

356
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,760
members need to know? They need, they need people to do that. And I think, um, I'm optimistic that,

357
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:42,160
you know, our members will see the value in that. Even as AI makes things easier for them in some ways.

358
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:50,320
I think it'll, you know, it's a great tool. I use it a lot in my personal life and, um, also, you know,

359
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:57,600
for work, but it's a tool. It's, it's not something that's designed to give you the answer. It's, um,

360
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:04,000
maybe help me give you a starting place, but you still need someone to, you know, quite frankly evaluate

361
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,360
whether it's, um, not worth anything or whether it's worth, you know, discussing with the member. So

362
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:15,360
I think that's probably what we're all dealing with now and we probably will for quite some time.

363
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:22,320
I try to maintain some optimism about it. Um, and I think I have seen no reason to not be at this point.

364
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,920
As we close, I'll end with a question. We ask all of our guests. What is the best piece of professional

365
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,280
advice you've ever received? And how does it shape the way that you approach leadership today?

366
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,400
You know, I was thinking about this one and this isn't the advice I was given personally,

367
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,640
though I would have loved to. You know, we're in a basketball city, Lindsey, uh, basketball state,

368
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,880
and I'm a huge spurs fan. And I, I was thinking about Greg Popovich and he's one of the, you know,

369
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,280
most respected leaders we have today, um, especially in sport, but just in generally,

370
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:59,200
and he talks about this idea from Jacob Rees about the stone cutter, um, hammering away on a stone,

371
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,800
right? You, you hit it, nothing happens. He hits it, nothing happens. And after a hundred hits,

372
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,680
you know, it hit finally cracks on the hundredth hit. And he knows that it's not the hundredth hit,

373
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,840
the broken, it was the cumulative effect of all 100. And I think that's how credibility works, right?

374
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:23,440
You don't earn it by saying I got a degree. You don't earn it by writing a single memo or drafting

375
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:29,760
a particular bill or performing well in a single meeting. It's doing the same things over and over

376
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:37,360
every day, working hard. And, um, you know, it's not easy, but you have to have patience and know that,

377
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:44,640
you know, every time you do follow through someone's noticing and after 10 years, um, the credibility is

378
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:50,400
there, you don't have to worry about it. I think the advice I would give is, you know, just be patient

379
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,600
and know that what you're doing matters. And if you do it the right way, everything else will take

380
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:03,040
care of itself. And you're going to be where you want to be. So I was told halfway through my career,

381
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:11,520
there is no, there's no bad news. There's only how we, how we react to it. Um, and so it's,

382
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,600
it's something I've taken a heart and I've given the same advice to the directors in the Missouri

383
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:21,600
Senate. Don't be afraid to come to me with something you think I'm going to be upset about.

384
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,760
Because if you wait a day or two, I've lost that day or two to work the problem, right?

385
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:33,120
I had to think about the problem and how we're going to solve it. Um, in the interim, if there's a delay,

386
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:39,440
that's fine. I've got plenty of time to work the problem during session. I don't have that kind of

387
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,880
time is not a luxury and we might have to pivot and work, solve the problem very quickly. And so,

388
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:51,440
to my, Ted, fellow Ted Lasso fans, right? If I, I can't control my emotions, then by all mean, let,

389
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:58,400
let our emotions control us, right? And, you know, Ted Lasso's showing sarcasm, Deroi Kent. Um, so

390
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:06,160
I have to be very aware that if I'm going to ask them to, um, not be afraid to come and share bad

391
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:14,320
news with me, then I have to be very careful to not, uh, let my emotions, uh, ruin the conversation,

392
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,680
right? That I, my door has to be open. I'm willing to receive the information and then that together,

393
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:25,120
we're going to come up with solution and work the problem. Uh, and so I'm asking something of them

394
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:31,360
and I have to be willing to give something back and that is, you know, controlling that emotion. Um,

395
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,480
because we just have to figure out what went wrong, how we're going to fix it, how we're going to

396
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:44,240
prevent it from happening again, um, because during session, I have no time to, uh, to sit and think

397
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,200
for a long time about how we're going to solve the problem. Patrick and Josh, thank you both for

398
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:54,800
joining us at SLC this year and for carving out the time to share your leadership, expertise and

399
00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,320
experience. We know the Missouri Senate is in very good hands with both of you. Thank you,

400
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,520
and thanks for having us. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to real estate for more

401
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:13,200
conversations like this and more about the work of CHG South, visit CHGself.org. I'm Lindsey Gray.

402
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:21,040
Let's keep it real. Thank you for joining us today on real estate, where we keep it real about what

403
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:27,840
really matters.

404
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:35,740
[silence]