(upbeat music)
- 447,000 reviews.
- Yeah.
- Wow, a lot of people like who are people?
Who are these people?
- One of the most shocking sentences I think I've ever read
in a book.
- Cause number one, I don't wanna be around someone
who, I, ironically, is like, you're like,
pass a soul, they're like,
(laughs)
- You're gonna be the sodium core.
(laughs)
- I guess I'm by it, I guess I just like, villain.
So I like my, I like, you do, you relate to them a lot.
- So she didn't understand like,
you don't wildly rock your body and flip over
until she read about,
equaled opposite reaction to reaction in a book.
- I hate her.
- Hello everyone and welcome to Mean Book Club.
This episode we read Lessons in Chemistry by Body Garmas.
- Wow, science, women.
- STEM, women in. - STEM.
- STEM. - Feminism.
- Misogyny.
- Yeah, also, yeah.
Oh, there's a lot in this book guys.
As always, we are your host,
- Every thing you could want. - Everything you could want.
- I'm Clara, sorry for talking over your intro.
- So rude. - I'm Johnna.
- And we are Mean Book Club.
We read books that are New York Times bestsellers
that our fans recommend we read.
And then we rip them apart.
Sabrina could not be here this episode.
So you're getting kind of the best of the best tonight.
- You're getting the best.
- You get the cream. - You get the cream.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- But also on the top of that cream, we got a cherry
because we got a special guest, Johnna,
you want to do the honors.
- I would absolutely love to.
First of all, she promises that she does not sound like any of us.
So there should be no confusion for those winners.
And that alone was a very big selling point.
Okay, she is a photographer in Central California
at Woodfield Photography on Insta.
If you want to check out her work,
she's originally from New Zealand
in case she says a word weirdly.
Be on the lookout.
She had a baby girl last year.
And she is as confident as Sabrina.
And also believes that we should talk
about the way book covers feel.
Please welcome Becky Hawking.
- Oh my goodness.
- Oh, clap, clap, clap, clap.
- Hello. - I actually, I'm so excited, you're here.
I'm glad you said that about the book cover
because I actually think this is a good book cover to discuss.
- Well, agreed, I agreed 100%.
- It's certainly everywhere I feel like.
You walk into a Barnes and Noble.
You're gonna see this book.
- Yeah, it's got this like peachy pink, I don't know.
- We're going right into the cover.
- I'm looking at it.
- Jesus.
- I actually did put it really high up.
It's number four on our agenda.
- All right, I'll move on.
- Even Johnna put it at four.
- Oh my goodness.
- Well, definitely, all the way till we get there.
You're right, I'm just so excited to talk about this.
- I'm really excited.
- All right, Johnna, how, why are we reading this book?
- So it was recommended by Suzanne
and I will admit her description was a bit light
when I went back to reread it.
All she said was you need to review it.
- N-E-E-D, all capitals.
- Yes, all caps.
- Okay.
- But she posted it under a different book we had read.
But here's a thing, she said that and I said,
wait a second, wait one second, someone got me that book
for Christmas, so I jumped on it and I championed it.
- Oh, that's new information.
- I don't remember you.
I don't remember you really, but when we were looking
at all the possible books we could do,
you didn't say that you had to hear your motive
of not having to scround around for a book.
- The real question is, are you going to tell the person
who gave it to you that you were reviewing it on the podcast?
Well, you know what?
- Yeah, that says more about her than me.
If my mother-in-law is listening to the podcast
then she'll know.
- Oh, you know, okay.
You've been trying to get a mother-in-law wreck,
so I think this counts, I think.
- Yes, I think so too.
- Sense?
- Really early on.
I was like, I don't know, John, I don't know her.
I believe in a little pair of impression.
- A little shop is the one that I've been trying to get on
for 15 seasons.
(laughing)
- Well, this one sold us right away.
I feel like we've bought, it's because we've all seen the book.
- Yes.
- We've seen people reading this book.
- It's definitely like, okay, I'm interested.
- How did you guys read the book?
Did you podcast?
Did you library?
Would you do it?
- Well, we can't podcast.
(laughing)
We are podcasting.
- We are podcasting.
- Right, right, right.
Did you audiobook?
- Yes.
- Did you audiobook it?
- I did an audiobook from the, wait, no, I couldn't get this
in the library, too big of a wait list.
I actually had to sign up, or, what did I do?
I'm so sorry.
I bought it on Apple Books.
I did buy it on Apple Books.
There it is.
Scrib's didn't have it.
I was going to re-sign up for Scrib, but Scrib doesn't have the
very popular stuff, I think.
- Yeah, now I'm like, where did I get it?
I think I might, maybe I did get it from the library.
No, I didn't fucking get it.
- I don't believe in you, a good one.
- I don't know where I got it.
I don't remember.
But I also listened to it.
- I bet you bought it.
- Becky, I know you're a hard back.
- Yeah, I was going to say, I found it in the
hard back Costco.
- Oh, hard back Costco.
But I couldn't get to reading it, and so I bought it on
Audible as well.
- Mm-hmm.
- So I had both, and I managed to make my way through it,
because someone else was reading it.
So that is an old school bean book club technique of needing to
purchase the book twice, so.
- Yeah, yeah.
I made notes in the hard back, and it was on my counter,
and I no longer can find it.
So, no notes, but it's all up here in my head.
- I'll leave it.
- Yeah, I believe it.
I did hard back as well, which sags really nicely into our
next section.
- Okay, great.
- Judge a book by its cover.
- Mm-hmm.
- And I want to say, I actually did a little research,
it was light research, but people were talking about the
cover online, you couldn't avoid it.
I just want to share this from Alison in Richmond,
Virginia.
I gave this book five stars, but the cover almost put me off.
It suggests a very conventional rom-com, and really does it
to service to the book and its readers.
I almost passed on it.
And then Elizabeth, from Peter Burrow, New Hampshire, said,
"I must say that the garish pinky orange beetroot cover is
very off-putting.
If I had not read a review before stepping into a bookstore,
I never would have bought it."
- Wow.
- People have, I have strong, I agree.
I actually, you know, I got to pick the book, so I just,
and I thought it was a rom-com, so I would have to agree,
and I was really excited.
And then, you know, as we find out, it's not.
- Yeah, I agree.
It's just misleading.
It's a misleading cover.
- It was a bit of, it was a letdown for me,
I'll be honest with you.
I was like, this looks fun, light, she's being raped.
Oh my God.
(laughing)
- Yeah, it's, it's not even as heavy, but it's weird.
I just, I'm really excited to talk about this book,
but yeah, it just like, it looks, it's very girly,
like, like, pretty red lips, look at my pen and my sticky down
and my bun.
- I believe we can have a pencil, but yeah.
- Oh yeah, all right, fair enough.
- A lot of people are kind of important.
- I guess that's like an asscience.
(laughing)
- You can't be afraid to make mistakes,
you have to try stuff and erase it in the science.
- And maybe sometimes you have to stab people
with a pencil, it will get into that.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That did make sense, it was all for stabbing, you're right.
- Yeah, so you see this cover,
you don't think that pencil is gonna stab someone.
You think, play, fun, be here.
- Also lessons in chemistry.
- Mm-hmm, it's perfect.
- It's like a rom-com.
- Definitely.
- Yeah, like romantic chemistry, it feels like it's a pun,
but it's, or something, like, like, she maybe works in science,
but we're gonna be having fun.
She's gonna be falling in love.
- How could you not fall in love with her?
She's hot, look at the cover.
(laughing)
- Blond.
- Touched, really?
- Really off-putting as well, I would say.
- I didn't think the cover was off-putting.
- Okay.
- Who's like this?
- Okay, good.
- But you take it off-putting.
- Blue pages, which is so cool.
- Minded about.
- Mine's blue edges.
- Blue edges, or what's the inside beige color?
- Blue edges.
- Yeah, I know, I was gonna say asking that
because people can't see or know what the hell are you talking about.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- So when you say that in blue pages,
I was leading you to the screen for just scripting.
- You were helping.
- Fair, fair, fair, fair.
- I was having a bit of a embarrassing about it,
but now I have to.
- Yeah, I also agree.
I feel like there's, well, I guess the people who were talking
about how they hated the cover,
it's because they really liked the book
and thought it was misleading,
but I was like, I don't know.
I think I'd rather read the book
that I thought the cover was.
I don't know.
- Mm-hmm.
- That's me.
- John, do you wanna, it's now time for John-A-Jabbers?
Do you wanna go have a run-on?
- Jabber-on about what the book's about for anybody
who might need a refresher or not have read it.
- Didn't read it.
- I will, Jabber-on off.
Thanks so much.
And Clara, I actually thought
you would be a good summary reader today.
- Thank you.
- Yeah, okay.
And it's just you.
It's all you.
- Oh my God.
- Wow.
- Then we get down to it.
- Wow.
- I think you'll see why.
(laughs)
- She's a simple, I wrote it as a very simple character.
- Oh, fun.
- Oh, right, I, you're right, I, I, I, only I can do complicated.
Yeah, I got you.
- It's not a man for Sarah.
- I am a, I fucked it up already.
- Oh my God.
- I'm taking away him from that Emily.
- I, Elizabeth Zott, am a one of a kind scientist
in 1960s, California.
My career hasn't been easy as I've dealt with massagene.
All I want to do is science,
but the patriarchy will not let me.
But then I met one good man, Calvin.
But alas, life is unpredictable
and he dies on an oil slick.
(laughs)
Cartoon.
Through no fault or effort of my own,
I am now the host of a cooking show on TV.
Now longer scientists.
I have a daughter.
She pops up now and again, but not as often as my science.
I use my cooking show to talk to housewives
and secretly teach them science.
I also think the cover of my book is cute,
but all it all misleading.
- Thank you.
Thank you, Zott.
- How did it go?
I didn't have to retake some lines.
- Yeah, it wasn't great.
- Oh, exactly.
- Remember this.
- I think it's because they don't wear my glasses,
so it's really hard to see the difference between,
for example, science and science and testing.
- I feel like this criticizing Claire
on how she read it is a way for us not to criticize the writing.
- Oh, interesting.
I love it.
I love what's going on.
- What's wrong with the writing of that summary?
It was great.
- I feel like there could be a lot of juice here, like, you know?
- Well, I mean, yeah, I could make it four pages long,
but I obviously loved dies on an oil slick that got me,
which is actually a compliment.
You should feel good about me breaking character and laughing.
- Yeah, it's true.
- I like that.
- No mention of the dog.
This is what it means.
- Oh, I'm surprised.
- Six 30 dog.
- Well, he's the first character on my character.
- Oh, okay, that's why, all right, all right, we'll get to it.
I know we'll get to it.
- I was gonna say, I didn't really get the vibe
that it was like, sciencey though.
Like, do you think that made me--
- That's true.
- About it being about science enough.
- Okay, that's a good note, so I should maybe
go mention that more.
- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Okay.
- Criticism, heard Becky. - Sorry.
- It's gonna be weird to have a complete stranger,
like joking on you guys.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- So far I really like it.
(laughs)
- I know some things.
- So far on that. - Yeah, also rowing.
We didn't get any rowing, which is not like a good half the book.
- Rowing is so funny.
- I think it's hard because so much happens in this book
that I don't care about.
(laughs)
- You know, I'm so excited to talk about it.
All right, John, do you wanna do your John's jugs?
- Well, a lot of John's up top.
All right, I know. - Yeah, sure.
- She rows, that's the rowing part.
- She does crew.
(laughs)
- Through science, she uses science.
- Yeah, it pisses me off on us.
(laughs)
- So, ironically, the author really set us up
to have a wonderful John and John pairing.
Elizabeth makes a cocktail in her cooking show,
but then refuses to make it, actually.
So we couldn't do that.
- Oh, right.
- It's like the producers wander too,
and she's like, "God, the cocktails are so patriarchy,
"I won't do it."
- It's like, you know what?
- But it's also chemistry.
- It's also chemistry. - Yeah, come on.
- So, I instead decided to pull from a moment
where the man who gives Elizabeth the cooking show
out of nowhere, by the way,
which we'll talk about.
He's like, "You're so beautiful, you be TV."
(laughs)
He is a very overwhelmed dad.
And he, at one point, is talking about packing
his daughter's lunch box,
and apparently he put a stapler in where the sandwich goes,
and a pile of scripts where the fruit cup goes,
and a gin flask where the milk goes.
- What the hell kind of lunch box is this?
- We all know lunch boxes. - Making pizza.
- Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just a bunch.
- I just think she could have picked items
that were a little more, like the juice box flask, okay fine,
but like a pile of papers for your fruit cup,
that's not gonna feel at all similar, sir.
- What it suggests to me is this man is not overloaded.
He is mentally ill.
(laughs)
In some stage of dementia,
and I think it probably needed more unpacking.
But I got curious and I said,
"Gin and milk."
And what do you know?
There is a recipe from Mr. Boston,
which is the classical red bartender book.
- Mm, mm, mm.
- Called gin and milk punch,
and it is just the ingredients my friends powdered sugar,
Mr. Boston gin, and one cup of milk.
I was wondering, what could the third ingredient be
that would help with how gross everything else is?
- Oh, sugar, that, that's actually gonna work.
- It's kind of a magic, that's a popular.
I would love to see somebody order that at a bar though.
- What absolutely, what's it called?
- Absolutely.
- It's called a gin and milk punch,
and that's our pairing tonight.
- Right, so nice, cheers.
- Oh, good.
- If anybody tries this, please let us know.
- No, please let us know.
- Please let us know.
And take a picture of the vomit after.
- All right, don't send it to us though.
- Just try your best to read.
(laughs)
- All right, all right, we're gonna take a quick commercial break,
and when we come back,
we're gonna be talking about the author of the book,
and we're gonna be diving right in.
BRB.
(upbeat music)
- And we're back.
We're talking lessons in chemistry by Bonnie Garmas,
Johnna, can you let us in on what we need to know
about this bestseller?
- Ladies, I am starting with the author, Sarah,
you know that I'm starting with the author.
- I know, you all, you like to start with it.
- Even though you tried to push me into the book.
- Okay.
Bonnie Garmas is a creative director and copywriter.
She still says she is right at the top of her bio,
even though now we can add bestseller to that list.
- Yeah, she had to keep her day job.
I don't think she did, but,
- I don't know, okay.
- But that's maybe how she identified,
I'll learn more about her as you talk.
- Yeah, absolutely.
She is, I've started with,
these facts make no sense, the order of them.
- Okay, great.
- She's an open water swimmer who tries really hard
not to think about what she's swimming with,
although she has been befriended by seals and dolphins,
and was once guided across a pitch dark lake
by a helpful swan.
- Okay, she's,
- This actually adds up to what is the kind of shit
she wrote in her book.
- That swan was absolutely thinking she was gonna eat her.
(laughing)
It was like, I don't think swans eat meat of it.
It's like, they're, oh, they probably fish,
but they're not predators exactly,
but she's, that swan,
she's too vulnerable, not for being honest.
- The swan is taking her to a second location.
(laughing)
- Okay, that was important.
- Oh, my hater put that fact to the first.
- Yeah, she says a mood.
- Yeah, she's from Seattle, but she now lives in London,
with her husband and her dog, 99.
No, that's not just a number, I said.
That's her dog's name.
- So annoying.
It was key in the book.
It was key in the book,
but now that she thinks it's clever enough to be in a book,
it got a piece of the yon.
- Yeah, after graduation,
she worked as an editor for a scientific publisher,
where she met the scientists who would later fact check
her novel, and the scientist I read online,
think she needed a different fact checker.
(laughing)
She said the chemistry was my farthest trickiest part
of writing the novel, I could not consult Google.
I had to learn from a 1950s chemistry book.
- That was the most difficult part,
not like character development.
(laughing)
- She reached through that.
- Well, yeah, yeah, she just ignored that, but uh.
- I actually am surprised here that I did think
like somebody must have had a science background writing this.
- I like hearing that the fact checker scientist was like,
I like imagining that they were like,
what is this fucking dribble?
Get a fact checker for her?
Cooking shows, get this away from me.
- I did no double checking of any of her scientific claims,
so it was so good. - Oh no, I didn't even think of it
until you said it.
- So, John, I hope you're gonna be able to inform us
what she got wrong.
- Uh, yes, I flagged a couple of things.
- Great, great, great, great.
- Yeah, sorry, I'm just scrambling
because I definitely had another really fun fact
that was after that one,
and it seems like I just pasted the same fact twice.
So, that's really cool.
- Say it again.
- I'm just checking her home page real quick.
Say it again.
Sorry, I'm sorry, give me a second.
- Oh, these are a little fun, little details.
- This is giving the audience a little peek behind the scenes.
(laughing)
- Okay, on to the book.
- Listen to this.
- This was her debut novel at 64 years old.
She debuted with lessons in chemistry.
That's pretty cool.
- Now I feel even more betrayed by the cover.
The cover implies a young writer, not a critic.
(laughing)
- Oh my god!
- She said it's 60s.
- I know, but I'm mad at her, so I'm a little bit sad.
- I always feel better for both,
when authors are wrote it older or hit success when they're older,
I like them better and...
- Yes.
- We're proud of that.
This is the third novel she wrote,
but it was the first to be published.
I would love to know.
Do you know what the other two novels were?
- What I believe she did not finish.
(laughing)
Sorry, I hardly counted as a novel she wrote.
- Okay, okay.
- I don't know about the other one.
- Okay.
- Sarah, before you like her too much,
I'd like to remind you about the Swan thing.
(laughing)
- Maybe if that information had been at the end,
I would have remembered it was too long ago.
- Oh, I forgot.
- I don't know that that's a formatic problem.
- It's be you problem.
- There was like a little authors note at the end of the book,
and I believe she said one of her novels was about the child.
- Oh yeah.
- And that's where she got Elizabeth from.
Oh yes, I, yes.
Now you say that I remember that,
that like she tried to write the book
from the child's point of view in that like Elizabeth saw
was like a minor minor character,
but then she just just like, nah, that's the one I really want to.
(laughing)
- Of all the characters to choose.
That's the one.
- That's it.
- She's the most interesting.
- The dog's point of view.
- Much better.
- Yeah, similar to the child.
- A quarter of the book is the dog's pew.
And as much as I love dogs,
I have to say this dog is a little, little, little bit annoying.
- A little.
- Right, I'm really interested to know
'cause I was like, we've got some dog lovers here.
And I actually thought if anything,
the dog character would make Clara like the book, I thought.
I read out the book.
- Yeah.
- No, I liked how humanized the dog was,
the complex feeling she gave the dog.
- 'Cause that's real.
And it's nice to see that represented.
It came out of nowhere, it felt.
- Yeah, it felt in line with the book or make any sense.
- I know.
- And I was like, is this magical realism or something?
I was like the tone shift in this book,
the tone shifts in this book a while, but sorry.
John, any other facts information you wanna know?
- Sure, just two little things.
She said she wrote the book because she wanted to salute
the generation of overlooked housewives
of the 50s and 60s of which her mother was a part.
And as of January 2022,
lessons in chemistry had been sold into 35 territories,
which I don't know what that means, can we just say countries
or a word that I know?
- It's a tradition. - And how they--
- Yes, I believe so.
But you know what, confusing nonetheless.
And has a TV adaptation underway.
- Wow.
- What's happening. - What's happening?
- Yeah.
Do you know anything about the adaptation?
- No. - Do you know anything about it?
- Please, I can't.
- Okay, okay, but wait, also, John,
I'm just not to like, harp on this,
but get on see information about the New York Times
as a seller or like when it was a best seller.
- Even when the book came out.
(laughing)
- She's barely-- - Kind of--
- Kind of--
- I think something got deleted actually.
(laughing)
When I, you know, I said that there's that double copy paste thing.
- I wonder-- - I've been copied over a lot of stuff
in that-- - I think I'm more--
- She's been copied over a lot of stuff.
(laughing)
- Once again, this is a look behind this here in Mean Book Club.
- Okay, very special.
- I mean, that's fine.
I'm glad you got to put your author information first though.
All right.
So let's go on to characters.
We already started talking about the dog.
Should we talk about the dog this early?
Okay, all right, let's talk about the dog.
- The central character.
- Dogs in the 630. - Dogs in the 630.
- Because that's like the time they brought him home
or something?
- 630 in the evening or something.
- Yeah, yeah, it's fine.
- Or something like that.
- I, okay, I wanna talk about the dog,
but I don't even wanna talk about it yet.
Without giving context.
- Okay, okay, okay.
- Okay, fair.
Okay, to be fair, look, the dog is not a main character.
- That's-- (laughing)
- We want it to be, we wish it was, but it's not.
We should probably start with our murder.
- I would say the dog murdered, but--
- Oh, that's true.
But still, that's not really a big part of it.
- The main character is Elizabeth Zott.
She's a gorgeous, scientist, incredible chef.
At the beginning, she is just a researcher
and she's trying to make her way in the science world.
- And she's the only woman who is in a secretary
and the men are really mean to her and they gossip
and have coffee and color a C-U-N-T constantly.
It seems like it really hurts her feelings.
I didn't know if I should say it or not.
- Did everyone hear Sarah?
- Cunt.
(laughing)
- Yeah, I think this book, I was up top,
like interested in it.
I felt like, oh, is this gonna be like historical fiction?
And I'm gonna like get a look at what it was like
to be a female scientist in this era.
And it definitely isn't that.
What you find out is this Elizabeth Zott,
it's pretty much like somebody, they plucked somebody
from 2020, maybe later, maybe 2027.
And put her in the 19th, what was this set, 60s?
- There's like 50s, 60s?
- Yeah, 50s, 60s.
- Television was still in black and white, so.
- Yeah, that was.
- Use that to date it.
- Yeah.
- But I totally agree Sarah, there's nothing about this character
not in the way she speaks, like not in the way she,
it could be from any time.
I feel like I want a little bit of like 50s.
- Yeah, she's not a project, she's not a product of her era.
Like her beliefs, she's also sat in all the things,
her feminism and all this stuff,
but it's not like at all reflective of the time,
she doesn't struggle with anything, she just is like,
this is the way it is.
- Yeah.
- I shouldn't get married, I shouldn't,
I don't need to do this.
And I don't know, it just took, it's so unbelievable
that I'm like, it's okay.
- Because part of the reason she claims
to have these counter-culture beliefs is that she raised herself,
she had like negligent bad parents
and also didn't go to school, she just went to the library
and formed her personality and education and all that.
- Shout out library.
- Yeah.
(laughs)
- Which, so I guess that's like an excuse.
- Sounds too bad.
- So I don't have 50s values because I went straight
to the books and figured it all out myself.
- We would also have written in the 50s probably.
- Yeah.
- Okay.
And then like, yeah, so she's in college
to studying to be a scientist and is obviously extremely smart
and hot and then like her advisor rapes her,
is actually a solter and then they don't do anything about it.
But I just, which is not like bad,
it's not necessarily a bad thing that they,
that that happens, or it's okay, it's a bad thing
that happens.
(laughs)
- It's not about topic to cover,
but it didn't really, like it happened,
but it didn't seem to affect her.
Like I felt like she saw a woman who gone through a ton of trauma
but like had no doubts about herself because,
like it didn't affect her mentally in any way.
- Like, it was wild.
- Like we were saying some of her like strongly held
feminist beliefs could have like derived from that
but or something, or it'd been influenced by that.
But it was and it was like, they were just separate.
That was just something to have been,
and now she knows to look out for herself
was maybe as far as it got.
- She seemed like she was already doing that.
Like it didn't seem like it changed her character at all.
- Yeah, I guess it was just telling us,
look how bad men are.
- Yeah.
- It did change her accessories.
It seems maybe like for the rest of her life,
'cause she always wore a pencil after that.
- Yeah, so true, good point.
- Because yes, we, she did stab this man to get him off of her.
- And it like went,
the pencil went like all the way in.
That's how she stabbed him.
'Cause I know what you're thinking.
It's like a pencil is not a good wipe in it.
Like who here hasn't been stabbed by a pencil in some grade?
Not that bad.
- Yeah.
- Claire, did you stab someone with a pencil?
- That's a game right?
- Pretty sharp.
- Well, at least doing like the finger
between the fingers thing really fast.
You keep yourself doing that with a pencil.
- I played a lot of pals and Barbies.
- I didn't do weird knife games.
(laughing)
- The intense one.
- I didn't torture animals, Claire, I didn't cut small fires.
First of all, I did that to myself,
the pencil and knife game.
The second of all, I don't know where you got those other things.
Who told you about that?
- Elizabeth, yeah, so she's really into chemistry.
I don't know.
- She kinda seemed to me like,
you know when people think of themselves going back into time,
but they think of themselves as they are now.
And they're like, oh, I'm just gonna live,
I would just live the way I always live.
And everyone else will learn from me.
And everyone else would just like,
it would just work out because I'm so enlightened.
And I felt like, that's what it felt like.
Like she would, she was placing herself almost back in time,
acting as if she was 2023.
- Yeah, yeah.
- That's such a good point.
And that's exactly what it was.
- It's like the dream, you know?
Like, it was the day dream.
- Too much.
- She's always like, surprised when other people
don't hold her beliefs.
- You're a fucking idiot, Elizabeth Scott.
You're the weird one.
- She doesn't wanna get married and she's so shocked
that that's causing waves.
- No one is on married.
Like, of course they're gonna be shocked.
- You can't even have them on your own credit cards
without being married.
- I'm sorry.
- I know that sucks, but like, she was so upset about being told,
you can't just like make it through with just grit,
you're gonna have to, you have to kind of like work
within the system and she got so pissed off about that.
- Just do what's expected of you, Elizabeth.
- And I know I agree.
- I bet she approved them all wrong.
- Also, but the whole thing, the whole issue with like her,
not being able to access Calvin after he dies,
not being access to stuff,
probably not would have maybe gotten money if he had died.
You know, like, it all the stuff,
I'm sure she would have used to get married benefits.
- She refused to get married, it was like, you idiot.
Like, there are benefits, there was a reason why you do it.
You don't have to be like married in the same way everyone is.
Like, you can keep your name.
I mean, what is the difference between,
her whole thing was that she was worried getting married
that everyone would just assume he was the reason
why she was having success, but like, bitch,
people already thought that.
- Yes, they already think she's a secretary.
He thought she was a secretary, the person in that.
- There was a part in the, when she dies
and they're cleaning up, she's sneaking in to clean up his stuff,
look at his stuff and she finds the engagement ring,
he proposed her, she said,
"Hey, she finds engagement ring and then someone walks in
and I thought she was gonna like,
slip it on her finger and be like,
we were engaged actually and see,
and then everything was gonna be okay."
But that's stupid idiot, didn't do that.
- After the consequences that are you rain down on her,
she could have saved herself.
Okay, elephant in the room, mad and I are not married,
but that's not a fend- - Okay.
- That's out of laziness.
We had an appointment, it was two early in the morning,
so we canceled.
We made another appointment.
- Sorry, I wasn't trying to author- - Then,
the baby was born.
- I'm sorry, you should just go get a piece of paper.
- Yes, but, yes, but.
- I didn't realize that you were living in the 50s.
- Right, you can at least get your own credit card,
not that you do have one, but you have one.
- Okay, that's enough.
I think a debit card is just fine.
- All right.
- All right, all right.
- That does speak to the question though,
how did she get on the mortgage if they weren't married?
Like, he put her on the mortgage of their house.
- But what happened to him?
- Maybe he said she was his child.
(laughing)
- Well, he couldn't win her.
- For his mother.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I live here with mother.
(laughing)
That's right, that's how I wanted to be an independent woman.
(laughing)
The funny thing is too, we were just talking about how,
like, she didn't want to be handed stuff and, like,
she was fighting, but one of the things
that the scientist who read this book pointed out
was that Elizabeth gets to get her PhD
without having any sort of undergraduate degree in science.
And then she gets to run her own lab
without having a PhD in science,
which the science people came in and said, no.
So it sounds like she was given a lot of special advantage.
- This is actually my biggest issue with her,
because she's very much a pull yourself up by your bootstraps,
like iron, rand, libertarian,
and ignoring the fact of all these people actually helping her
and that you actually need other people to get ahead
and you don't have to be ashamed of that.
You can still, like, I just drove me crazy the way she was,
like, it's got no, I will take no help from anyone.
It's like, bitch, you should take help.
And you are, you're just not a girl.
- Yeah, you are.
(laughing)
- You are, your narrative voice isn't allowing you too,
but you are gonna help.
(laughing)
- Another character who, like, doesn't realize
that she is beautiful.
- Yes, also though. - Oh, yeah.
- With all her pretty privilege.
- She was pretty privileged, yeah.
- It was very irritating because the author thought
that meant, like, we also didn't get it
and would describe her body all the time.
It's like, she's tall, but not like a horse.
(laughing)
- She's tall.
That way, this is not putting to man.
(laughing)
- Yeah.
- It's like, the end of the book and they'll describe the way she
is, like, we get it.
- And we know. - And we know that.
- And she got a whole TV show handed to her
because she was beautiful.
The only thing.
- Let's talk about, can we talk about that moment
real quick of how she gets the TV show
or should we talk about more characters first?
- I feel like, I think we should do a little bit more
of the book prior, 'cause I feel like
there's so much that happens before the TV show.
Although it is hinted at early on,
'cause we get like, in the book,
we were in this current timeline of her,
Elizabeth Zott, meeting Calvin,
but then we got a flash forward chapter
so we know that she's hosting a show in the future
and there's a child.
- And that he's not around.
So we're like, oh, how did that happen?
- Well, oil slick.
- Oil slick.
(laughing)
- Well, before, yeah. - Yeah, before that,
there's a really weird,
there's a lot of like arguing about philosophy,
but there's a really weird section where Calvin's like,
I wanna get you into rowing.
- Oh yeah. - It was so long,
and she didn't want to,
but I just-- - And she was sad at it.
- And she was, at first,
- At first I was like, just try it,
you're such a stuck-up bitch.
Anyway, so, but then she did,
because he convinced her it was science
and that tricked her into doing it.
- This is how she was really bad at rowing.
They were always falling in the water,
getting freezing cold,
neither of them-- - Wait, how does that happen?
(laughing)
- She was really bad. - How many times have you
fallen out of a boat?
- You can, honestly.
- And she couldn't swim, sorry, if I go ahead.
- Oh yeah, she couldn't swim, she didn't tell him.
Then she's like, wait a minute, rowing is physics.
Let me go home and read science books.
The next day she was good at rowing.
It's like, I don't fucking think so.
- Yeah, so now you're a physicist too.
- That's my problem. - That's ridiculous.
- It was ridiculous. - It was a problem.
- It was ridiculous.
She was like, so she didn't understand,
like, you don't wildly rock your body
until the boat flips over until she read about
equal and opposite reaction to reaction in a book.
- I hate her.
- I couldn't science Clara for an English Mandarin.
- Right there, you like busted out.
- Yeah, that was, that's pretty good.
- I don't remember any of the science books.
- It will probably come as no surprise
to hear that Bonnie Garmus was herself a rower.
- Yeah, yeah.
- I'm glad there was something because I was like,
you don't write this much about rowing unless you
like it. - Right, because it is.
- I did not need that.
I did not need to know.
And it was like weird.
There's that weirdly, I felt homoerotic scene
where Calvin was like practicing rowing
and the guy came up and was like yelling at him
to row harder, harder.
- Oh, no. - It was just watching
and I felt I was like, what the fuck?
- He kept saying like, stroke, stroke.
(laughing)
I felt really uncomfortable for her,
but I mean, I'll end up being fine, I guess.
That's just rowers though.
- Yeah, it was just something that happened in the book
and I need to read into it.
(laughing)
- Have you guys ever tried any crew?
Were any rowing? - No.
- Only at the gym on the little machine,
which I think is about the same experience though.
- So they still call that an egg.
- An egg?
- I think it may call it a rower.
- Or that sounds like her.
- But I put it in the fuller and never wanna hair again.
- I'm like hearing it now.
One of my good friends in high school did the rowing team
and he was moving one of the machines
and his finger I guess was in it, cut off his finger.
They sewed it back on, but it's all frank.
- I know my arfriend Annie.
- Okay, I only know Frank.
- I know a four day Annie.
- Yeah, three-fraker, nothing for me.
- Danny liked snowboarding.
So I don't know how you feel about that.
- Not great.
- Yeah, you're a ski hare, you're a skier.
- Shhh.
- I should've done that before.
- You're a ski hare.
- I'm a ski hare.
- I think, wait, what are we?
I feel like we should take another quick commercial break
and come back and we'll,
let's keep moving forward with this dumb fucking book.
All right, we are big.
- Yay.
(upbeat music)
- And we're back.
All right, so do we want to,
I feel like we are far enough in that we can talk about
the dog and the death.
- Let's do it.
- One of the most shocking sentences I think I've ever read
in a book.
It's like, not to jump ahead, but I'm a guy.
- I'm not a guy.
- I can, he was,
they're like talking about going for a walk
and he gets the dog out and there's the whole leash thing
and then literally like the last sentence of the chapter
is like, and 30 minutes later he was dead.
- And you're like the dog.
- And the chapter and I was like, wait, what?
What is about to happen?
It just like came out of nowhere like so much in this book
and was like, shocking.
- That's so fun.
- And the dog,
- I don't bomb sniffing dogs,
so your mind immediately goes to maybe he finally found a ball.
- I guess.
- What happened?
- He's actually a drop out from bomb sniffer school.
- Yeah, they like a dog.
- I think explains the manslaughter.
- And we have to know that like there's some leash laws
that like before 630, the dog was just like running free
which is again, why I thought Claire might like this dog.
And then they were like leash laws,
you have to use a leash and really that like leash law is,
what a weird statement to make to be like a leash
killed the man.
- It makes, I know sense.
He fell and hit his feet.
- I see it. - What did the leash do?
- Came out of the car, struck a toddler, killed him.
It's like the equivalent.
- And we have to like hear it from the dog's perspective
and he's like guilt ridden and it's like, I don't like that.
I don't need to hear about a dog being sad
from a dog's perspective.
I absolutely don't need that.
- Yeah.
You can tell things from a dog's perspective to have fun
or to increase people's understanding of dogs.
- They can have a flash of momentary sadness
that lasts no longer than one heartbeat
if you want for drama and that is it.
- That's the rule. - That's the rule.
- That's the rule.
And it just also with having no one,
the dog should also be like, wait, leash is can be dropped.
- But what happened is that
the dog's been struggled to control.
I don't even understand it.
So try to try to.
- A car back, they're going through like the police station
and like one of the cars backfires and it scares the dog.
So they, and they both go in opposite directions
which somehow causes, count them to fall,
when he falls he hits his head and dies.
- In my mind, it's a real like.
- Oh wait, does he have an overt man?
- He also then he gets run over after his death.
- Yeah, so excessive, so excessively violent.
This is, that's actually my favorite part about this book
is how excessively violent it is.
- It is. - It is so just goof.
- The fall was enough, you know?
It was enough to say. - He's dead.
- Yeah, yeah.
They make it clear the car runs over his dead life
first body.
- Oh my God.
- In case you had any doubt, you know,
here this was going, they will not be having an open casket.
- And I guess the other thing to know about Calvin
is that throughout this period of time,
he's, you know, he's a big renowned scientist,
even though he's got a sad past, blah, blah,
that will eventually learn about for some reason.
Anyway, he has been behind Elizabeth's back
basically helping her get financing or, you know,
making sure that she is able to do her research.
- Yeah, so evil of him to be doing that.
But if she found out she would be so pissed,
she's think she's overcoming the patriarchy
and they're giving her things because she's so good at science.
She does not consider that it could be her looks
or that her husband or boyfriend
who essentially runs the place is helping her.
- Yeah, yeah, wild.
Wild, but anyway. - Let's see.
- So that happens and does she find out
she's pregnant right after that?
Or, when she's cleaning up his stuff.
- Yes, someone has a doubt. - And she does it out her.
- She's like, they're like, "Who is the bitchie woman
"head of HR or whatever?"
- Yeah. - She's all,
I think Calvin left you a gift.
- Yeah.
- What else is she think?
- No, how, my uterus feels weird.
(laughs)
- Yeah, she's a pretty dumb scientist too for all that stuff.
She takes a while ago the doctor too, which pissed me off.
There's a lot of stuff about her in this period.
Also, she didn't want a kid.
Okay, fair.
That's her, I don't think there was any discussion
of abortion or anything again.
I thought that was so, was there?
I can't remember.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Was there any abortion discussion?
- I don't think so.
I thought that was so odd.
I know. - You're expecting it.
- Right. - For a feminist from 2023 living
in the 50s, like, - Right.
- Maybe that should have come up.
I understand that it would be hard to choir
and be part, potentially unsafe,
but it still felt that odd that there was no discussion.
- Effort.
- She's in California. - I mean,
thought of it.
I really felt like there was.
That's funny.
I made up a section of the book 'cause it would make more sense.
I should try to get an abortion.
- Right. - At least thought about it.
My God.
- Right, 'cause I didn't know if they're not legal.
They're still like, I mean, that was a whole point.
There people did back alley abortions, there are other,
you know what I mean?
Like, I-- - It actually would be
a way to bring the 50s into the book a bit.
- Yeah, the way you're in the dark era.
- Yeah, this is what we're doing, but we don't want to do that.
We don't want to do that, so.
- She just thought that--
- In a timeless time.
Even though she was like, so like, I don't want to get,
she's so stubborn of like, I don't want to get married.
I want to do this.
I want to focus on my career.
She was like, yeah, no, I'll do the have a kid thing.
Does it all by herself?
It's really sad.
I don't know, Claire, or I guess both of you,
Becky and Claire, did you have you guys think of this,
the baby portion pregnant postpartum period?
- It made me so angry.
(laughing)
Why? - Yeah.
- Well, I don't necessarily think of the postpartum,
but her child, she's like, oh, my child,
is it gonna be a genius?
Because I won't place any limits on her.
I don't really know, I don't think parents do place
a lot of limits on their children.
- Yeah.
- A little baby.
- I can throttle the development here.
I want her to be at about a six.
- Yeah.
- Her child is a ridiculous.
- Yeah, it's ridiculous.
- She's like four and she's talking like an 11 or 13 year old.
It's just, it made me feel awesome for it for.
- Yeah, she skipped, just skipped, great.
I don't know, it is, it is pissed me off quite a lot.
- Yeah.
- But in not like a very endering child,
there was a lot of love about her.
Yeah, like that she wasn't kind.
Like there was no scene where she did something
that made you think, like, oh, this child
would ender herself to others.
And yet everyone loved her.
- Yeah.
- Well, there was one thing she did,
and this actually is a little section I wanted to do,
called First Red Flag of the Book.
We talked about doing this before.
- Oh, yes, yes.
- But what you were like, oh, this book might be bad.
And my first red flag was that we find out
that Madeline has been letting another child eat her lunch
every day.
- Oh, yeah.
- And her entire lunch, there's no trade happening.
Like another student is eating it.
She does a tellety one.
It's so strange.
- There's something wrong with your trial.
- Yeah.
And like Becky said, Madeline's not like a nice kid.
She's not like a sweetheart where you're like,
she's doing out of the kindness of her heart.
It's like, I don't understand.
- And she did it that she wanted to fit in.
I feel like there was something they were trying to say
where she was like giving it to the girl.
- It was like the cool girl or something.
- Yeah, but it wasn't the cool girl though.
It was the producer's daughter.
So she was like weird in her own way.
She didn't get real lunches.
She got gin milk.
So I don't say--
- That was the child that was starving
because she was sort of staplers in gin milk.
- Yeah, yeah.
- And Madeline was getting these like gourmet meals
from her mom who has time to not only be--
- Yeah, full time mom, but also create beautifully,
it'd be like a mini meatloaf
with the side of asparagus chips
and crumbly lay for dessert.
And those strawberries you can only get from Japan
that are growing the winter time.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- It was like that.
Which brings me to your questions
about the postpartum part,
which does it completely by yourself.
- Yeah.
- That's impossible.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- It's like, I guess they described her as being very sleepy
and falling asleep on the floor once.
You need a lot of help.
And you would be dead.
- Oh, that's the baby when the friend showed up.
- Right, that's what I can't remember.
- I feel like--
- Yeah, it was like, it was months old, like,
- There was a long period of time
where she was doing everything by herself.
I was like, this woman must have, like,
this type of one would have postpartum psychosis.
I can't believe they're both still alive.
Like, I just--
(laughing)
- Yeah, that's really, that's so dark.
- Believeable, but--
- Well, maybe she did and the TV show is just part of that
psycho-so-so-
- Oh, no.
- Maybe that's the real story.
And you get to the end and you find that
was all just in her imagination.
- I love that.
- Much better about that.
- It's so creepy.
- It's so creepy. - It's too creepy.
- It's too creepy for me.
- I've got raped and stabbed and...
- Now we're talking from a dog's perspective.
(laughing)
- Ruff Ruff with a funny name.
- I was so confused by it.
- I think the red flag for me,
the first red flag for me kind of plays off the cover,
which was the rape scene would be my first red flag.
'Cause it's like, oh, it's gonna be this kind of book.
- It wasn't like a Danielle Steele.
- It was Malice Oliver again.
- Yeah, it was Malice Oliver again.
- I don't think it was Malice, but it was far weirder.
- It had hints of Malice when it was like,
she's hot, so everyone wants to be weird.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
- And a lot of tragedy and like men in general,
there aren't really very many good men in the book.
They're mostly like out to get her
and then the good one, Calvin is dead.
The dog is a male, but he's a murderer.
You know, it just like...
(laughing)
What about you, Becky?
- Yeah. - It was your first red flag.
- Definitely the PhD program without the undergraduate.
(laughing)
- I was thinking, is this gonna be a book where like,
it's like, and then everybody started clapping.
Like, it's gonna be one of those, you know.
- A slothal. - Everything's for her.
- And like, I don't know. - Kind of.
- Yeah, you're right. - It's a little confused.
- Yeah. - Things, yeah.
- She's gonna get me into a lot of things.
- Yeah, she speaks her mind, but it always works out.
- It's, yeah.
(laughing)
- I guess like the biggest, the biggest, not working out
would be the death, but that wasn't like her fault.
Do you know what I mean? - Yeah.
- Like, she didn't...
- That was the dog's fault.
- The dog's fault. - Oh, she felt it.
- She was her fault. - She wanted to require the leash.
- She did, but it wasn't really her fault.
It wasn't, I mean, if right, you know.
- There's no way on earth the leash pulled him to death.
(laughing)
- It's actually like a banana peel, like, moment.
- I certainly know. - Yeah.
- And then I head, you know, when they slip and it's like,
- Like, - Whoa!
- Like, one way or the other, it's like, so care-cru-dure.
- Like, I can't even have banana!
- Yeah.
- Maybe it's the driver's fault who like, backed over someone
who literally just like, the dog is barking.
- Yeah. - He's just like, flipped all over and--
- Oh, what's that? - He should have touched too.
- Oh, yeah. - Boom, boom.
- We're first thing out of a parking lot.
It would be fun to like learn later that the driver
was some sort of killer, like, that comes back
here in the book. - Wasn't it the police car?
- It was. - There was a police car.
- Yeah, okay, yeah. - So the opposite of John is the--
- But it is, - Although.
- Or like, if the police came back because everything
comes back in this book, she really likes having every--
I think they're like, maybe 10 characters in this town
because they all keep appearing.
- Yes. - Serve several purposes.
It's just very neat and tidy.
- In a weird way. - But it was an old time,
so I don't know how many people were in the world in the 1950s.
It wasn't like, now when there's millions, you know?
- There's a greater sense of community also.
People weren't in-- - People used--
- The metaverse. - Yeah, the Calvin character
was in an orphanage and there's kind of like very casual reverence
to all the sexual assaults by the priest.
- Yeah, it was just a different-- - That's just the way it was.
- That's just the way it was. - It was a simpler time.
- I just feel like the violence was so grotesque,
but it was also so fast and it was over.
- Yeah, and then never talked about again.
Or just like, flippantly talked about,
but it was very grotesquely. - It was so grotesquely.
- That's a great word of this.
The whole book was very flippin' about violence.
And then just to match it with again, like the magical realism,
I don't even know if that's the right term,
but like for the dog being like,
"Suitin' safely smart," and then the child being insanely smart.
It's like, "Okay, so none of these are real things or people."
We're just being cutesy here, but then also graphic murder.
- Yeah. (laughs)
- It really would make sense if this was all of someone's imagination.
- Yeah.
- Then I-- - It's uncomfortable as it makes me--
- And it was, it was funny, Jarvis' imagination.
- Garmus, bodygarmus, it was her imagination.
- What a band of mentions.
- Yeah.
- So we were gonna talk about her getting the show?
- Let's do it. - More I know it decided she got it
'cause she's hot, and because she went to confront the--
Who, what Johnna spoke about, the little girl who was--
- The lunch. - The heck, that stapler,
who was eating her daughter's lunch, she gets mad at the girl's dad.
I thought that was weird, I was like,
"Talk to your child about, and I give you no way her lunch first."
- Yeah, well she assumes everyone is a bully,
so why wouldn't you auto-medicatise him?
- Yeah. - About your child.
- She was like, "There must be a man involved here somewhere."
- Yeah, she found the man. - She found him.
- I don't know, even all the women were awful in this book too.
- Yeah, that's not a problem. - Yeah, sure.
- Very backstabby. - Very backstabby.
- The teacher awful. - Yeah, like us.
- Not how we would be in the 1950s, of course not.
- No, I just be myself.
- I be myself as I am now.
- Everyone would love it.
- I get a TV show.
(laughing)
- So the producer comes up with the idea to have her do
with the cooking show because--
- Well, so the girls' dad is his job as producer of TV shows.
- In the afternoon. - In the afternoon.
- Yes, good clarifying.
- Yeah. - She goes to his work
because she cannot get in touch with him because he's busy,
but she thinks maybe he's avoiding her.
She goes to his work, storms in with her hips, sweat, sweat, sweat.
- You are eating my lunch, your daughter's eating my daughter's lunch.
You know, she yells at him and he is so busy with afternoon programming
that he barely hears her.
Or is it that he's dumbstruck by the way she looks?
- I forget. - I forget.
- Because he was too busy to pack a lunch and then anyway--
- I think he was shaking a nap.
(laughing)
- In the afternoon depression as he called it.
- That's why he has a point about afternoon programming
being hard to hook people.
And Elizabeth starts talking about nutritious lunches.
Now she tries really hard to give her daughter one.
And then he comes up with the idea that she should have a cooking show
and there's never been a cooking show before.
And he's gonna pay her TV money so she quits being a scientist.
- I guess not that he's ever seen her food or anything like that,
but-- - Or her or a Jedi camera test.
- Or a Jedi camera test. - Right, right.
- I think this is where, I mean, honestly,
this book was so bonkers that I don't think it bothered me
as much as it usually would have, but you're like,
"Okay, backtrack. With the science stuff, I know I'm sure
that a lot of that was wrong.
I don't know science chemistry stuff."
So, you know, was easier for me to overlook it.
The TV stuff is always frustrating because of like,
"Oh, if you work anything adjacent, you're like,
"this isn't how it would work."
Or you're just being like, "She's been a difficult bitch."
You look more like people.
Like, "Why are you being..."
You're just like ignoring what people wrote and spent time on
and... - Oh my god, I hate it.
- I hate it. - And I hate it.
- Yeah, and who wants to keep her on this show?
There's a million people lined up behind her
that could do the job just as well.
- Actually, much better because they agreed the damage.
- Yeah, that would actually be a host of a cooking show
which she refuses to do.
- Yeah, and she just like, instead of say,
"What is it?"
"What is salt?"
"Sorry, I'm not even being..."
- Oh yes, she says sodium chloride is for salt.
- So chloride is for acid.
- And it's like, "Why? Why?"
- Yeah, how is that?
- I'm already annoyed about calling extra virgin olive oil EVO.
Like, that's already too much for me.
We're not gonna start using the chemical names for things.
- And if the idea is to teach people and relate to people,
like, "Why are you doing that?"
- Use the common names.
- Yeah, they acted like her being all sodium chloride
and whatever was like empowering women.
And it's like, "I don't know, like, chemistry equal."
I don't know that being annoying and saying chemicals.
- Yeah, it may be if anything empowers women
who were interested in chemistry,
but didn't do it because of the time period.
But like, that's not, I'd look,
"Oh, I don't know, maybe people get mad at me,
"but I just don't think that's as large a swath as women
"as this book made it out."
Like, I feel like there's a relatability factor
that's missing from the show.
- I think there were more housewives
that would have appreciated watching a nice cooking show.
- Yeah, and I mean, right, making, not talking down to them
and like making them is like one thing,
but is like a good thing,
but the way she was doing it was just like,
"Yeah, you have to see-- - It was talking down, essentially.
- Yeah, because it's like you're not at all making it relatable.
You're assuming they've had the same science background as you,
which is insane.
- Maybe you have those people-- - How are the shows really fun?
- Oh, so it's gonna say, maybe it's like those people
who really like indie films or pretend they do,
but really only do it to be pretentious.
- Yeah, it feels to those things.
- It's because it makes them feel smarter.
- Yeah. - But really, just like to go to the movies and watch,
it definitely felt pretentious and like overcompensating.
And I guess that like she had to give up her science career
for this, so maybe there was-- - There wasn't much going on for her.
- There wasn't much going on for her. - Yeah, yeah.
- No. - But I don't think so.
I think that I'm reading too much into the book,
giving it to the greater, at this point.
- I mean, they were using that kind of language
like before her and her not husband would use that kind of language.
- Oh, yeah. - Like every day around the house
that I'm like, this just sounds pretentious.
- I just really want to give them a swirling.
- I really want to beat them up.
Sorry, this is just, I don't know, a mind of me of, you know,
at some point, what is the neighbor's name
that basically raised her daughter?
Sorry, Harriet. - Harriet, Harriet, Harriet.
- There's some point where the daughter, I don't know,
is probably two.
And Harriet says like, let's make a mud pie.
Instead, her smart daughter wrote three, point one, four,
blah, blah, blah.
And there's sort of like cutesy things like that.
And I'm like, that's so fucking dumb.
It just, oh my god.
- At three, she's three. - At three.
- And then, and then, and then, and then,
- And then, and then, and then,
- I don't know. - Guess what?
It's worse to not know what pie is when you're three.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, you're great.
- You're actually behind.
- I don't know, stuff like that.
And then later, there was some other reference,
cutesy reference to her, like, a joke about her daughter,
not knowing decibels yet, with the exception of pie.
It, like, it didn't make sense.
It was just like, she had that joke,
she thought it was so funny, and she was like,
it doesn't make any sense for her to know pie, but,
I'm gonna keep it.
- I'm gonna lose someone.
- Why would you teach your child that,
like, if he weren't gonna teach them other math things?
It almost seems like, you know how, like, pie is kind of like a math meme,
in some ways, like, everyone knows about pie.
Even if they don't know what it does, or they couldn't use it.
It was kind of like, she just placed that in the book,
even though the child couldn't use that in the mathematical equations.
- Yeah, yeah.
- It was so, I would say, a piece of meme-ish.
- It was just to make a little joke,
that was so stinking in the back, I think.
- Ah, so much jokes.
- A little joke.
- Yeah.
- John is doing air quotes.
- Most of the little jokes in this book were,
they made me feel like that.
- Yeah.
- I made me feel air quote.
- Like so weird for them.
- So weird for them.
- Oh my gosh.
- So much humor, Elizabeth.
- John, can you tell us about the science that was wrong?
- There was another example, which was, so she,
at a certain point, decided she's gonna move her science lab
into her home kitchen, which, the scientists that read the book
were like, wait, that makes absolutely no sense,
especially considering that she is a chemist.
So she was dealing with explosive materials,
things that are highly reactive.
She has a young child, which obviously we know she doesn't care,
but, and that like, the things that you have access to
in a science lab are specialty items that could never
be replicated in a home kitchen.
Not just like, they couldn't be done safely,
just like you just couldn't have it in your home.
- And the other thing people pointed out was like,
also what is she, is she like a chemist, is she a biologist?
- I don't know what her research was.
I don't know, I think that'll be whatever it's for.
- Yeah.
- But she was telling me what she was doing in her house.
- Yeah.
- What was she doing?
I don't know.
- Yeah.
- And that was like, I don't know.
- They did talk about once where she like,
made a coffee in a series of--
- Oh yeah.
- Yeah.
- Instead of mugs.
- And it was like, that's the only science I've seen her do in this book.
- Everybody loved it.
- This is all part of the psychosis that she was going to.
- Yeah.
- I don't think she is a scientist.
- 100%.
All right.
That's really funny.
Those are excellent points.
And yeah, I guess I shouldn't have, I guess I really shouldn't have assumed
the author of your science now that we point all these things out,
because they're really--
- I guess like, her dad was a scientist,
which makes me wonder how he was around the house if she felt like this was normal.
- Yeah.
- Maybe he made a joke once and she really ran with it.
- Well, that's true.
- Maybe he drew high into some mud.
- Yeah, I feel bad.
Are we being too hard on her because she's a female author?
You know, I'm just thinking back to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
You know, I don't think that Dr. Jekyll had all the things he needed
- His home science lab.
- People still love that book.
- That's so true.
- Yeah, but we're supposed to be impressed with her home science lab.
It's like a character trait basically that she made it and is doing it anyway.
And she doesn't need a regular kitchen.
- Half a year.
- And she is a cook, but she's a good cook.
- Everything she does is flawless.
Like, we're not meant to think that anything she does is bad
or we'll come back to bite her in the ass because it does it and it won't.
- Also, keep in mind, it's the 1950s.
So if she doesn't have a kitchen, they're not eating.
- But there's that.
- Uber eats.
- I don't.
- Yeah, she's a series of wonderful restaurants around the corner that are going to be open until 11 o'clock.
- If she said she had her cock, but she won a nice kitchen.
- Okay, all right.
We got to take another quick commercial break.
But we'll get to the end of the book, I guess.
We can come back.
Wow.
BRB.
(upbeat music)
- I don't know.
I don't even know if we'll make it, but we're trying.
- Yeah, I mean, we can't talk about everything.
- It's too much.
- Pushing on.
- There's so much--
- I know.
- It was--
- It was bravely pushing on.
- Yeah.
And we're back.
I feel like there's also a long section of this book, which in the TV show,
that was like science first religion, that was like unnecessary in my opinion.
We're like, she said she-- - Yeah.
- It was so crazy, like in the '95, you'd be like--
- On the 19- - I-
- TV.
- I- - TV.
- It's like, shut up.
- Yeah.
- And she didn't have to say it.
- And there was an opportunity to just, like, I don't know, she had to say, like, amen or something.
And she said she was like, I'm in anything.
- I'm in a lot.
- And when I was--
- It was like, totally unnecessary.
She volunteered the information live on her TV show.
Okay, everyone's manager at the TV show.
Everyone's gonna get fired and lose their jobs now.
Thanks, I guess you're--
- Believes are more important.
- I'm a little bit-- - Or saying her--
- Or is it this peak?
- Isn't this, like, around peak McCarthyism?
But like, yeah, there's no way-- - There'd be good--
- There'd be good scare, like--
- I don't even-- - Trying to find out these people at Hollywood.
I don't know.
- It would've been-- - It doesn't make any sense--
- It doesn't make any sense that she would be able to say that--
Well, that she would--
A character would say that and think that there would be no repercussions.
And the fact that there were actually maybe just a few people upset,
but not really, there's that many repercussions.
- Wasn't-- - Yes, someone tries to bomb--
- Oh, that's true, but it's a bomb, you're right.
- It's like the only consequence in the book.
- But-- - No worries!
- The dog saved her.
- We were waiting for the bomb sniffing in her and she--
- And then-- - And then--
- And then he comes-- - Another full circle!
- Yeah, we didn't even notice.
There were so many little scenes like that.
Everything felt like--
Everything ended up very interconnected,
but it felt so disconnected throughout.
Like, we were just seeing these little scenelets of things that I'm like--
- Part of that. - Might be because the bomb scene was told from the point of the dog.
- Okay, I know.
- Which sounds crazy, doesn't it?
- Ah, man.
- Such a smart dog. - So funny.
- Yeah.
But what else-- oh, there's some weird thing with the daughters trying to find her history as a cat.
- As a kindergartener is assigned to do a family tree, which seems a little too early for that, but--
- Yeah. - So that-- - Well, you should be just doing a tree.
- Yeah. - And then you drive, drive, drive a tree.
- Exactly, Johnna.
So she's doing an insane amount of research trying to find out about her orphaned dad.
And his family ends up like talking to an old penpal who was a priest,
and then there's all this weird-- - She's like walk wallabee?
- He had very funny name. - Wakely, I think.
- Wakely. - Yeah, he's a little scary ghost.
- It also seems like I've got very progressive priest or whatever.
- Should not have a relationship with a small child.
- I know, so-- - Or at least to the problems, but I don't even know.
I didn't write anything down. I just remember I'm like, "Oh, my God.
I'm not a religious person." - He goes to her house.
- He goes to the little girl's house when the little girl is home alone.
And was like, "Wanna talk?" - She's like-- - It was like so uncomfortable.
- So weird. - And then the mom comes home, and he's home alone with her.
And then he tries to leave.
It just makes them look worse.
And it was the only point of the book that I felt so uncomfortable
where I was like, "Oh no, what is happening?"
- Good answer. - And Wakely. - That was just pissed.
- Yeah. - The whole full circle thing.
And there's like a big surprise at the end of the book, right?
Like big surprise, we're building up to that the whole time.
Not a surprise, because everything in this book circles round.
And so like every little piece of information from the beginning is used in the end.
I don't know, were you guys surprised by who her family was, who her dad's family was?
Did that?
- 'Cause-- - I felt like it was supposed to be the Parker Foundation.
- Was on Calvin's family, right? - Yeah, yeah.
- Of course I knew it was his family behind it.
I guess I didn't realize it was gonna be like, "Oh, it's a woman.
It's the mom, not the dad." I think maybe that was the--
- Like a sister? - Or who--
- Oh no, it is a mom. It's the mom.
- Yeah, that's-- - She's been giving money all this time.
- And it just seemed like a problem that women won't use.
- She was a bit-- - Their own names.
So people think they're men.
I'm like, "Why is nobody addressing that?"
Elizabeth's due to two. She's saying, "Ezot."
Say your name, Elizabeth. Say your name.
You know? I--
- Yeah. - I think it's kind of--
- It was like so needlessly complicated
and yet everyone still saw it coming where it was like--
- Yeah. - Okay.
- Calvin's in an orphanage.
Well, Calvin's adopted, but he doesn't know that.
His parents die in a car accident. His aunt takes him.
She dies. He goes to an orphanage.
His real parents find out he exists.
The orphanage lies and says he's dead because they're pissed at him
for not being-- not donating--
the pissed at the parents for being rich and not donating.
So the parents do donate, but only science and rowing materials
for some reason.
- Calvin lives-- - No, that sounds about right.
- Yeah, that is cool.
- Science? - Only what I thought.
- Probably not science. They'd be like French class and rowing.
- Yeah. Maybe business.
Let's see. There's more twists and turns.
He gets lots of people pretending to be his family writing in,
but one signs it.
Your sad mother.
- Yeah, he's ignoring it. It's like that's definitely your mom.
- Yeah.
- The only letter that didn't ask for money,
but he's gonna put it in the same category as everything else.
- Another one of the sad mother letters.
I keep getting it.
- And she's really rich even though she's a woman who's even older
than Elizabeth.
So what? In the fucking 30s and 40s, she got to run stuff,
but by just going by her initials or something.
- It didn't exist.
- I think she might have been a criminal.
- She gives money to...
She's been giving money to Elizabeth,
which I guess makes sense, but not really.
Why and does she think it...
Why does she like her science?
I don't remember.
- I just didn't get that part either.
- What is science?
- A biogenesis or something like that?
- Why would she be attracted to that or drawn to that?
It didn't make sense.
- No.
- It's like the study that all life is sprung
from inorganic material, I believe.
- Okay.
- Sounds pretty interesting, right?
- And then the rich lady is in charge of a foundation.
- I don't see the condition, but...
- There's like a scene where one of the characters said
that the Parker Foundation, which was the foundation
that had been giving the money,
was run by a woman.
And it was halfway through the book,
and it was so out of nowhere that the minute they said it,
I was like, "That's gonna be Calvin's mom."
Like it is like, yeah.
- It was so out of nowhere like, "Oh, I actually thought
it was gonna be his sister, like a sister or something like that."
But it was just because every part of this book was used further on,
and it was all tell-not-show.
And so anything that they said,
you knew was gonna come back later.
- Yeah, yeah.
- I don't usually see the twists.
I like to go along for the ride, and I'm not looking for them.
But I got this one.
- Yeah, this one.
And they made it out like it was such a big deal,
and like, and try to unveil it so dramatically,
but I was like, "We got it, we got it, we got it, we got it, we got it, we got it."
- This is how it feels like doesn't get it.
- Yeah, she's an idiot.
- I feel like the woman is like grabbing Elizabeth by the throat
and be like, "I am his mom."
- I'm like, "She still doesn't get it."
- "I'm his mom."
- "Calm down."
- "It's dead now."
- "Yeah, okay."
- "It's crazy."
- "Yeah, you're just want his work."
- "Oh yeah, she thinks she's lying to get his work."
- "Okay, she was so dense."
- "She was so dense."
- "Yeah."
- Like, she was so dumb for someone who is so smart.
Like, she didn't understand anything that was going on.
- I did.
I was like, wondering now, I was like,
"Is she supposed to be on the spectrum or something?"
Like, she's really, really intelligent in this way,
it doesn't seem to understand social constructs or something.
But then I was like, I don't actually,
I don't think that's on purpose.
- I was weirdly picturing Elizabeth Holmes
when I was reading her the Theranos woman.
- Yeah, I could see that.
- I'm just seeing it later.
- Yeah.
- It was a little better, I think.
- 'Cause that's purposely part of it.
- But she didn't get her downfall.
- She just woman should have had it downfall.
She didn't.
- This show.
- She just got everything in the end.
Oh my God.
- It was just so ham-fisted, but with all the beliefs
and philosophies.
- It was really preachy.
- Very, very preachy.
- Yeah.
- But pretentious preachy.
- Right, for stuff that we all kind of as a society
have already dealt with.
- Yeah, or like, she's also agree with you.
- Women can keep their names.
- Yeah, I agree with all of them.
- You shut up.
Like, I hate you making me not agree with you.
- You're gonna let she like was trying to turn me into like a
raging conservative in this book.
'Cause I was so-
- Yeah, I'll change my name.
- If it would make her feel bad, I'd change my name.
- I'll close my credit cards.
- Did you guys think it was weird that for such a feminist,
she didn't, she wasn't like that to the woman in her everyday life.
Like, for being written as a feminist, she wasn't very encouraging
of other women.
- Only madmen.
- Or like seeing, or yeah.
- She was like, yeah.
- But then on her TV show.
- The raw secretaries.
- She was one of those women that was like,
you have to be like a man, you have to be like uncarrying
and like, all about yourself and selfish in order to have success.
- Which I actually do think, if anything was accurate
for that time period, that probably was.
- And that's how you like to live.
- Which I don't, I think is like a, yeah, very regressive type of feminism.
But I actually might be more accurate for the era of like thinking
that the way you get ahead is to just be like a man,
which just seems like what you were doing.
- She struck me as the kind of person who kind of liked
that she was the only girl that died.
- Exactly.
- A girl, but I'm real good.
- Exactly.
- There was a woman that, when I worked for the Delaware
County Bar Association, there was a very older woman who ran it.
It worked for.
And she was one of those like old women who had that perspective of like,
I hate, like she, remember sitting down and she'd be like,
I hate all the women here.
Or like, you know, and she was just like,
like, they're all just chatting all the time.
And I'm like, oh, the stuff that I'm like, I think they're fine.
I don't know why you, she just like very much,
- For you, me.
- She was very much so wanted me to like,
know that like she was like a man.
And that's why she got ahead in life.
And I'm like, I don't want it to be like that.
- Sounds cool.
- It's like an insecurity, like defining yourself against another type.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Yeah.
- Her TV show is like, she's so like,
oh, like these women aren't stupid.
Like, I'm gonna talk to them, like,
because I'm a scientist, I'm gonna talk to them,
like I would be talking to other scientists,
like, they're not done.
But then in her real life, she keeps commenting on women's weight,
calling them ugly, like random comments about,
other women when you're like, but on your show,
you're saying women can do anything.
And they need their time.
But to the people in your life,
the other women that you meet, you have like none of that.
- Empathy for them, yeah.
- Yeah.
- She didn't make sense, it was okay.
- Remember that one woman is like a guest on her show
who like raises her hand for some reason.
And he was like, I wanted to be a heart surgeon
and my husband and son's laugh at me.
And Elizabeth's like, how old are you?
60? Go be a heart surgeon.
And then on the last episode, she's like,
she did it, she's a heart surgeon.
- No, she's fucking not.
- No, she's like, how many years was this show on for you?
- All the way through medical school.
- I don't even know what's in my book.
- The quotes from the book,
like the quotes from the book made it sounds like
it was gonna be good.
There's a lot of pull quotes, but they all seem to be kind of
from her show.
Maybe like a really quotable show,
but when you put it in the context,
you're like, oh, you're just annoying.
- Yeah.
- You're just annoying.
- I hated her in her show.
- And then imagining her as being tall,
it really feels oppressive.
I imagined her taller than you, Jonah.
- Okay, okay, okay, okay.
And then she wears heels as well, I believe.
- I'm a normal height, but Claire's just very small,
so it shouldn't be too high.
- Wait, what's your height?
- You're not.
- You're tall.
- Five nine.
- You're tall.
- You're normal height.
- You're tall.
- I'm just so tall.
- Yes, tall, but I mean, I'm not like,
I'm not freakishly missized the way Claire is.
- I don't have a 11.
- I'm a 11.
- Oh my god.
- Wow.
- So tall.
- So that's tall.
- That's tall.
- Jonah, get out of here.
- Five 11.
- That's not tall.
- That's so.
- Over like since two is tall.
- Yeah, I'm the shortest person in my family.
- Oh wow.
- So I feel really normal.
- But yeah.
- Becky Claire's one year old baby is almost taller than her,
so I'm not sure who to talk about that.
- She doesn't understand.
- I bet Madeline would have been taller than her.
- I think she was on the tall, taller than the boys.
I was just gonna say, I'm very at.
I'm at the average height, but when I was little,
they told me I was gonna be six feet tall.
So I grew up thinking I was gonna be tall,
and it really destroyed me to not be.
- Do you feel like you're short?
- I feel like you're short.
- I feel average.
- I feel pretty average.
- Because you thought you were gonna be tall.
- But I got an over it, but when I was younger,
it's definitely destroyed me to not be tall.
I just went through, like, believing in you.
- I had plants.
I had big plants.
- You bought your clothes.
- I thought you bought a star.
- I worked out, didn't know that.
- You installed the high shelves.
- I'll reach them one day.
- Oh my god.
- Sometimes I see photos of myself with normal sized people,
and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
How do you guys even take me seriously?
I zoom is helping because you can't tell.
But I feel like I wouldn't be able to take myself seriously.
But I even zoom, like I remember.
You know, I see you in here, I know.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- It's helpful.
- Is Sabrina tall?
- No. - No.
- She's sure. - No, no.
- Okay. - I was just thinking
'cause sometimes I feel like I have the confidence of a man
because I'm like, I'd eye with them.
You know, I think that might have something to think of.
- No, I feel like it could, that could work that way,
but I think for Claire and Sabrina,
it's like the confidence.
- Not an over small dog, so.
- Yeah, it's not an over-hound.
- Yeah, yeah. - It looks like an energy.
- I think that's a couple.
- I love it.
I'm not too big in size, but I'm gonna come with big energy.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- I also think Sabrina doesn't need anything physical
or mental to...
- To be sure anymore, aren't they?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah.
- Well, she has the secret, so.
- That's true. - That's true, that's true.
- Yeah, but I don't think there's an tangible thing.
- Yeah.
It's definitely hard to explain.
All right, we wanna talk about,
just go over quickly character development in the book,
what characters developed, yeah?
- Yeah, like none of them except for maybe the friend
and the producer was kinda my thought,
or and I was also just thinking it's probably like
the most real part of 50s culture
that Elizabeth's best friend who comes and basically raises her child
is married to an abusive man who is also described
just very grotesquely in this book.
- Yeah, yeah, like just can't read.
- He's like, Jean and... - He's walking around with his shirt off
Ruben is brilliant. - Yeah.
- He's a gross man.
And I thought she was kinda described that, not as gross,
but she wasn't described nicely in this book.
But then she starts having an affair with the TV producer
and then is able to divorce her husband
because she has like somewhere safe to go
or like somewhere to like have money.
And I thought that was maybe unintentionally like the only real...
culturally 50s part of this book.
- Yeah, she wouldn't be able to leave it as she had something lined up.
That's fair.
That's fair. Good for her to develop a character
when none of the others made sense.
- Sorry.
- Say the same.
You guys wanna do Goodreads 5 Star Reviews?
- Yeah. - Let's do it.
- All right, this one is from Carolyn.
She says, "The 1960s was not a good time
to be a career woman of any sort."
Let alone a woman who wanted nothing more than to be a research chemist.
This tape-you novel is one of the most original I've ever read.
There is a lot of humor in the plot and dialogue is filled with delightful characters,
including a wonderful dog with a large vocabulary and math,
an infant prodigy who's totally engaging,
as well as some odious male scientists
who don't think women are smart enough to be scientists,
but are happy to take credit for their work.
And then there's Elizabeth herself,
who is unique, single-minded, and determined to be herself.
Her cooking show is hilarious,
as she refuses to be coin sexy for the camera.
- Is that what's funny?
- I know.
- Is that the humor that they were talking about?
- Yeah. I guess some, there you go.
- This is from...
- Is this why I started my own TV show?
I don't know what people find funny.
- Is that the pre-release of this?
I think if there was any humor to it,
it was unintentional.
It was just like because she's an idiot.
- You know what I mean?
- 'Cause she can't read the book.
- Yeah, I can't think of an example of humor.
- Yeah.
- Well, Johnna's Bud Pye example was sort of trying, right?
- Sarah, Sarah said that.
Oh my god.
- Oh, fucker of the couch.
- Okay.
- Johnna didn't say it at all.
- Wow.
- Johnna.
- Sorry.
- It's okay.
- Oh, you know, in Zoom,
switched my squares around, I think, is a problem.
- Oh, yeah, you don't remember our faces.
- You probably deleted something.
- My Google Doc is weird.
- All right, sure, sure.
Johnna, you have another goodreads, five-star?
- Yes, this is from Chrissy.
And she says, five-stars.
To be back in the world without easy,
who Elizabeth saw it, she calls her easy,
'cause they're familiar.
- Okay.
Without easy and her matter of factness,
her gumpshin real humaneness,
her solid system of belief,
and yes, her chemistry, monomania,
to be back in the world without all of this
is honestly terrible.
- Absolutely terrible.
(laughing)
- No.
- Oh, no.
- It's really long.
It goes on and on.
And then she ends it with,
Bonnie Garmin says off to a brilliant start.
I want to give this book 4.5 stars,
because I sensed deeply what it was wanting to do.
(laughing)
- Oh, no.
- You gave it five stars.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, it's great.
This whole review is worth a read,
but it's the length of the book.
- So, yeah, we're not gonna do that.
- It's fair.
- Yeah, it's good.
So people really did like this.
- It does have, I think, a pretty high-good reading.
Let's see what it's at right now.
4.35, which I think is very good for good reads,
especially for over 447,000 reviews.
Yeah.
Wow, a lot of people like, who are people?
Who are these people?
- I don't know.
- It was like, Peck does like,
"Witty and humorous."
And I didn't get it.
I didn't get it.
- And it's like, that's, you guys didn't read it.
- Yeah.
- You looked at the cover and said,
"Wild ride, a witty rom-com."
- This is gonna be hard for me.
- All right, all right.
You guys want to do "Hey Rates?"
I'll say this, but I think you're already aware,
Becky, that this is out of five, one to five,
and we do it in the world of me book a book,
so when I compare it to Shakespeare,
whatever you think is great literature.
That being said, does anybody want to go first?
- I got it.
2 out of five.
It was stupid, it was annoying, it was weird,
it, like, yeah, everything came of noir.
But like I was saying earlier, there were points where the stuff
from the dog's perspective, the magical realism in the book
that also has rape and attempted rapes and abuse.
The stuff from the dog's point of view that showed
the dog being a complex character and not just like food,
food, or you know, like, show the dog, humanize the dog a bit.
I'm not saying all the dogs, some of it was stupid,
so I was wearing a box.
So, it was pretentious, but there was an element there
that humanized the dog and maybe hopefully made people
who ignore their dog a little bit think twice
and maybe think that they should be more conservative.
- And let them off a leash.
Let them off the damn leash every now and then.
Alfie is very good off leash.
Obviously we don't do it in the street,
but in a side of park, yeah, let him off.
He's great, he's not going anywhere, he's staying right,
he is good, he is good off leash, he is.
- Thank you.
- I'd give it a 2.5 too.
I would say, or a two out of five as well.
It wasn't badly written.
Like, that's, I think that was the problem for me was
like the writing was pretty good.
It was just like the content was terrible.
There was like no understanding of child development
and like what kids can and can't do it,
like physically, you know, no character development.
Everyone just gave her everything she wanted
and great things for her that she didn't even know she wanted.
They just handed it to her, she ended up with a wealthy benefactor,
a popular TV show, just really, you know, terrible content, really.
But the writing was pretty good.
No one repeated any faces.
It was engaging.
- Except for maybe if she had like a final chapter
that was like this was all a dream?
- Yeah, you really did make it.
- I'm sorry.
- That was the good, that would have made this an amazing book.
- Usually this was all a dream as a copy of it.
- But this is what it made it make sense.
- I think that this was a really good meme book club book.
Honestly, so much to talk about.
It was so different than what I expected to be.
It was so insane and weird that for me,
I'm gonna give this a 4 out of 5 because...
- I'm gonna remember this book for a long time.
I think it's fun to talk about.
And I think as long as you go in...
Maybe I don't want you to go in knowing it's weird.
I don't know, maybe it's better for you to go in with the expectations
and just be like, "What the fuck is this?"
It wasn't what's this fuck is this,
but I kept reading it the whole time.
It was long, but I think I was pretty engaged even though
a lot of it was nonsense and didn't at all do any character development.
It was just so weird it kept me reading.
So I'm gonna go 4 out of 5.
- I think at my personal bias against Elizabeth is creeping in a bit.
Because number one, I don't want to be around someone who,
I ironically is like, you're like, pass us all, they're like,
"I'm in the sodium chloride."
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- I don't like that.
It doesn't make me feel good.
I also think, again, this is my own career path,
but someone who's just given a TV show on a silver platter
and then is like, squander.
I don't even like this.
I just want to go back to being a scientist, sort of,
but I'll keep doing this.
I don't like that.
- And then-- - And then--
- And then-- - It's insulting, honestly.
- It's insulting. - Yeah.
- And I hate to go back to the cover,
but the cover is so strange and misleading with its pink front
and its blue pages. - She's wearing sunglasses on the covers.
- What the fuck?
- She does not wear sunglasses.
- Yeah, but look, it's a guy for you.
- What is that? - That's a guy for you.
- He's a boyly atop them.
- So you know she's a coward.
- That's true.
But there's something about this book that suggests
like you're about to bite into a slice of cake
and then you get inside and it's fish.
It's not what you wanted, it's not what you expected,
and that's off-putting.
And I don't like that.
- For that reason, too.
- Wow. - I guess I just like villains.
I like books about this. - You do.
You relate to them a lot, yeah.
- She truly was.
- All right, guys, it's time for everyone's favorite segment.
- Let's come.
Little fucker of the cast.
- I've got a vote.
- Yeah, I invite you to go first.
- Oh no, but no one has done anything.
- I'm sure we did.
- I'm waiting.
- Thank God.
- I'm on the way to first.
- I'm obviously, I'll go first.
Obviously it's-- - I have one too.
- I have one too. - I have one too.
- She crazily said, "Jonna said something."
I said, "Completely rude."
- Okay.
- That was an honest mistake.
- I apologize. - No, you did not.
You didn't apologize.
You tried to be like, "No, John had definitely said it."
You couldn't have said anything that I would agree with.
That'd be crazy.
- It wasn't.
- I was just saying it was an example.
She said, I didn't say anything.
- Okay, well fucker.
- You might regret who you've picked with you.
- Okay.
- Okay, okay.
- Which is Jonna because she did do the New York Times information.
- I agree with that.
I do agree with that, but I didn't do it.
- It's too late.
- I did make that.
- Oh, God.
- I do, I would have won.
- I wish I had gone first.
- Oh, yeah, that did make me mad.
- Yeah.
- Okay, my person is Clara because she took on the summary.
And when I gave her this incredible opportunity,
I said, "What do you like it?"
And she said, "Yes."
And didn't even fail to reveal she didn't even have her glasses.
She couldn't even do it.
- She wasn't even cooking.
- She wasn't cooking.
- Doing a summary.
- Oh, this is my time.
- Well, I didn't reveal that I didn't have my glasses were on Zoom.
(laughing)
- And she lied by a mission and she should have passed it on to someone who was going to give it
the read that it deserved.
- Ridiculous.
- I did a fine reason.
- I'm out.
- All right.
- Okay, she's out.
- I think you know what you need to do.
- I think you know you need to do that again.
- I think, okay, here's the deal.
This podcast was delayed, right?
And I was told it was delayed because John I wasn't going to be here.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
And you guys were like, "Oh no, we couldn't possibly do it without you, John."
- But whoever...
- Exactly, whatever.
- What happened?
- It's true.
- That's the first dog.
- Maybe like, you know, my job.
- Exactly the first dog.
- Oh my God, that's awesome.
(laughing)
- Oh my God.
- Someone else is missing and you weren't like,
"Oh, we couldn't possibly do it without you."
- I'm in person.
- I'm like that.
(laughing)
- So whoever made that decision of like, you know,
one of you is more important than the other.
That would be the one for me.
- Okay, you want to say the name.
- I was like, "John."
- I just know.
- But we know who we are.
- We know who we are.
- We're away with it.
- It sounds like it was Clara and Sarah.
- It sounds like it was John, the one you were thinking.
- Very clearly, John.
- What did John have?
- Because we and Sarah, one side of here.
- We're all so we do it without you.
- Maybe it's not worth saying that would ever come out of my mouth?
(laughing)
- I think it was like, wait,
so then we'll only have three people.
If we don't have Sabrina and John,
I think that me and Sarah were like,
"That's not enough people to be missing two."
- We didn't.
- And then John, we were here.
- Okay, we couldn't possibly do it without you.
- I think we, all right.
- Yeah, we're saying the same thing.
You get her from her.
- All right.
I guess this, John gets it.
- I guess this means John and Claire tied,
although I mean, I have to apologize.
- Whoa, whoa, whoa.
- I apologize, 'cause I would have voted John ahead.
I just had a little more patience.
- I do apologize.
- So let's just go ahead and say it's not.
- If anything, it's more Clara,
because that vote was a very light John.
it was like a shadow boat. I don't even think Becky said my name.
-You guys did too. -Also nice!
-Very clean. -We're also nice today!
-We were nice. -Where are we?
-Don't ruin it! Claire, don't ruin a nice day.
-And we were nice! We were so nice!
-Let's just guess you have a stranger on your cast today.
-That's alright. -Strange your normal.
-Strange your normal. -Strange your normal.
-Strange your normal. Friend!
-If people want to hear more from you, they can find you.
-They wouldn't. -No one wants to hear more.
-But if they want to see more from you of your pictures,
-remind us where they can find you? -Yeah.
Woodfield photography, that's me. I'm in Central California.
Can I just give a little shout out to Liz Anderson?
-She's the one who got me hooked on your podcast. -We love Liz.
-She's great. She loves you guys.
We often listen and call each other and talk about your podcast.
-That's a lot. -It's another layer.
-We say stuff that gets you angry, just like the book got you angry.
I got it. I got you.
We are meme book club on all the socials.
Please check out our Patreon. Become a patron if you haven't.
-Please, please, please, leave a five star review for us on iTunes,
Spotify, wherever you listen. Help people find the cast.
-Feel free to say who your favorite is on that.
-Oh, yeah. -You know what?
If you're mad and you want to say something mean,
that's actually fine. -Yes, you can say what you want to say on the five stars.
-You have to do five stars when we won't see it.
-We refuse to look at it. -It's like a filter.
-I don't know. It's something broken.
-Something with a Google Doc.
-On my original five star review from three years ago,
I think I said I love Clara's voice.
-Like that one. -You're the one with those ones.
-She does. -She does.
-Well, that's just because people can't tell the rest of us apart.
-Don't dismiss what our guests said.
-Excuse me. -That's rude, Sarah.
-Don't let your personal insecurities make you attack others.
-I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
-I just get like two intimidated. -I'm a villain.
-I'm a villain.
-All right.
-What are we doing for our next episode, guys?
-Is that John Irving, a hotel new hamster?
-Nope.
-It's November 9th by Colleen Mover.
That's right.
-Cohoe is back.
-No.
-Yes.
-And another book with a date.
We have a lot of date titles in the season for some reason.
And also, we're doing a lot of fall winter books
and this is coming down the spring.
So, we did that on purpose.
-Straum mind you, simpler times.
We're great at planning, guys.
All right.
Again, Maggie, so much fun.
Thank you for being on this with us.
-Thank you so much for having me.
-I loved it.
-Yeah, you guys.
-We'll see you everyone next time.
Bye.
-I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
They just get like two intimidated.
-I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
They just get like two intimidated.
I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
They just get like two intimidated.
-I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
They just get like two intimidated.
-I'm sure people want to say I'm their favorite.
[Music]