1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:23,600 [Music] 2 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:29,200 Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast, where we take a deep dive into the minds of 3 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,920 executives and learn their success stories. In today's episode, we're going to be speaking 4 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:43,280 with two people, Chip and Adele. Adele is a PR strategist who has managed top PR firms and 5 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:50,080 worked with high-profile clients like President Joe Biden and CEO of Lockheed Martin. 6 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:58,320 Known for expertise in crisis management, Adele has led campaigns for major brands such as SAP 7 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:06,560 and Verizon. Joining Adele is Chip, a former FBI, special agents and hostage negotiator 8 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:13,280 turned business consultant. Chip co-founded the convincing company with Adele, leveraging his 9 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:21,120 unique high stakes negotiations and behavioral analysis. His transition from FBI to corporate world 10 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,880 offers a fascinating perspective on how techniques from law enforcement can be applied to business 11 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:33,600 strategies and crisis management. Welcome Adele and Chip. Thank you Melissa. Thank you. 12 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:39,840 Thanks for being here today. Adele, I want to start with you ladies first of course, 13 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:49,200 giving your background with clients like President Joe Biden and the CEO of Lockheed Martin. 14 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:56,000 How did you get into the industry you're in now from PR to crisis communications? 15 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:03,920 Yeah, so I started my career at George Magazine as a reporter for John F. Kenvey Jr. 16 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:12,240 his publication that was the melding between politics and pop culture and it was a really 17 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:20,480 interesting place to start my career and ever since I worked there anytime I whipped out my resume 18 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,320 for like another 15 years thereafter people would be like, "Did you meet him?" 19 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Was he was he had some? 15, you know your name? I mean like it was like it didn't matter what I did 20 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:36,480 15 years thereafter they were like what what was John F. Kenvey Jr. like but I did that. I was 21 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:42,480 in a reporter. I was an investigative reporter for the Azary Park press and then USA Today was 22 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,920 they bought them out but as the person who was the first person to graduate college in my family I 23 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:52,720 had to pay off my student loans so I sold out and went over to the dark side as they call it 24 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:59,360 on Madison Avenue launching big dot coms because I did it during the dot com error also eBay 25 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:05,200 movie phone what a hundred flowers got the one in her flower sky on cover a time magazine and that sort 26 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:11,120 of that sort of solidified the fact that I was that I was in PR because they were like wow what 27 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:17,360 did you just do? What you just blew this company up and it was it was pretty exciting did that 28 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,920 and you know did that for quite a while work to some big memes some celebrities and then started 29 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:32,080 my own agency so I did that I started my own agency 15 years ago and I've been working with Chip for 30 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:37,680 about five years so I've been a business for myself for a little under 20 years I started when I was 31 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:44,240 five naturally because I'm so young but but yeah so it was really fun and I got to work with some 32 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:50,000 really high profile individuals and some of those people were really interesting to work with 33 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,560 some require different convincing strategies some of which we talk about in the book 34 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,360 and it is certainly interesting to work with people who are at the top of their game 35 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:07,680 and it does require a different set of skills and a lot of patience believe it or not it is 36 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:13,680 much harder to work with a big name than it is to work with just any executive right it is 37 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,160 different they have different standards and so it is a little bit of a different process which I can 38 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,640 talk about a little bit more on the podcast but yeah well thanks for being here Adel I'm anxious to 39 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:33,040 get into it now Chip you have a similar interesting background from FBI special agent and hostage 40 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:43,200 negotiator your experiences equally as unique you have led the transition from FBI to co-founding 41 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:50,160 the convincing company with Adel tell us a little bit about your story yeah so I started my career 42 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:59,040 with the FBI in the Washington DC field office that's where I began and I was on an espnage squad I did 43 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:08,720 fugitives drug violations and espnage and from there I transferred to the New York City field office 44 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:16,400 and that's where I also worked other violations and I was the team leader for the New York City 45 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:24,560 hostage negotiators that's fantastic I'm excited to talk to you both today so thanks for being here 46 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:33,680 to talk about crisis management Adel I'm can you share a little bit about your key strategies 47 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:42,720 and how to navigate crisis management and any key takeaways you can share with our listeners yeah so I 48 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:48,480 mean I think when you are dealing with people who are in a crisis situation one of the first things 49 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:55,680 that we encounter is really is the game of being convincing so they're going through a difficult 50 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:03,200 time you have got to sort of get them out of that like poor me fairness this is like so unfair I've 51 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,760 done everything right for 20 years we call it the fairness fallacy because some people stay there for 52 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,800 a long time whether just like this is so unfair why am I being portrayed like this I've done so many 53 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:19,040 things right in my career why is this one thing just really you know becoming such a moron my name 54 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,120 and so what we have to do is we have to sort of get them out of this mindset and that's where 55 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:31,200 you know chip and I working together we really we bridge our two disciplines because I can be 56 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:38,160 focused on knowing exactly what they need to say what they need to do the strategies the steps 57 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:45,520 and chip is focused on getting people to do what they need to do in these high stress moments like 58 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:53,760 the emotion that goes into it which is a lot harder than that sounds so I mean it's really an interesting 59 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:02,720 combination of skills and I think because we both come at it from different places the people who 60 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:09,600 work with us they feel when they're having a crisis they feel so much calmer they feel like they 61 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:15,280 understand what's next and then they also understand why they're feeling what they're feeling and that's 62 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,560 I think most people in the industry of crisis while they might be good practitioners they really 63 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:26,400 don't understand the emotional elements that the executive the team people around them are going 64 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,400 through and so we can predict that with some level of certainty and they don't think many other 65 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:39,920 people in our field can do that that's great now I think FBI negotiation techniques are really 66 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:45,280 relevant with what we're going to talk about today from your perspective how has that helped you 67 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:52,560 with corporate crisis management oh yeah that's a great question because one of the things that I was 68 00:07:52,560 --> 00:08:00,960 transferring from government work to the business sector and working with Adele you know it's 69 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:11,520 it's a I guess I'm used to a different kind of situation you know so for example one of one of 70 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,760 my first times of working with Adele in an engagement when we first started working together she said 71 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:23,920 hey I've got this thing with this with this company could you swing by I just want to get your 72 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:31,040 your read on it I say yeah absolutely and so I go there and the scene is this you know I enter the 73 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:37,200 boardroom and Adele's already there and I'm looking around and here's what I see Melissa I got 74 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:44,400 three people off to the corner in the back that are literally crying I mean they're sobbing 75 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:51,760 and then I've got some other people that are sitting at at the table and they're like stone-faced 76 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,920 zombies it's like they can't it's like they've seen something they can't process and then I've just 77 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:05,600 got some other people that are standing around and they are mad they are just angry so my take on it 78 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:12,400 from coming from you know law enforcement is some people died right this is a bad situation 79 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:18,640 obviously they're they're all dealing with you know grief and the shock and the stress of all this 80 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:25,200 I guess that's why Adele wanted me to swing by so I leaned over to Adele and I said so okay what do we 81 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:33,120 what do we got give me the give me the the quick of it and she said okay well one of these people 82 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:41,600 sent an email they weren't supposed to send I said what what she's she's I said one more time somebody 83 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:47,760 sent an email they were supposed to and then somebody died right she said no nobody's dead no there's 84 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,640 no dead I said no terrorism no nothing like this she's no she said they just literally sent an 85 00:09:52,640 --> 00:10:00,880 email that they weren't supposed to I said oh this is what it's like right so it's a different 86 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:07,920 context absolutely but what I found and what Adele helped me understand is that really stresses 87 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:15,760 relatives and you know my day to day yeah there were times it was life and death their day to day is 88 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:23,200 I could lose my job right I could lose my my career here it's my reputation's on the line 89 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,720 I've got a mortgage I've got another house in the hampton's how am I supposed to pay for this 90 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:36,080 let me just say this we do handle harder things than sending the wrong email I mean like we do 91 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:41,840 handle like multinational graces foodborne illnesses infectious disease like it's not please do not 92 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:48,320 think that it's just you hire us just and not because you sent out the wrong email no like run the gamut 93 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,960 graces I just want to throw that in because I just like want to make sure people realize it's 94 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,720 from work complex but yeah it is relative no it is and I think you make a really good point is 95 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:07,120 is we stress is stress right yeah and we all adapt to whether you're an ER doctor or you're 96 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:13,360 working answering health desk calls or you're you know you work for the police for for stress is 97 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:19,600 stress and at all we all can handle different reactions differently so I want to tie kind of what 98 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:26,960 you two mentioned back to persuasive business strategies and how do you kind of what you both 99 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:35,200 have talked about the blending of PR and negotiation and how to use that in the workplace and so Adele 100 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,520 you mentioned a little bit at the beginning about talking about women and business so how do you 101 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:49,840 integrate persuasive communication strategies in business settings to achieve successful outcomes 102 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:56,320 from a women's perspective oh wow this is a great question and I do think it's different for women 103 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:02,160 than it is for men I do I still think that is that is a that is a key factor while I think a lot of 104 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:10,640 the biases have dissipated they're still there and women are still faced with you know there's 105 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,000 not that many seats of the table for us and so women are not necessarily kind to other women 106 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:22,320 and finding a mentor inside an organization I never found one that was not that was a woman 107 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:29,920 and I worked at some big PR firms I really wanted a mentor I really wanted that it was just not going 108 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,120 to happen and so what I tell women in in who are looking for a mentor says don't look inside the 109 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,280 company that you're at because there's not that many seats at the table for women and women don't 110 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,000 necessarily help other women inside their own company until they're just about to retire that's 111 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,920 one of the things I did find kind of funny right when they're just about to retire women are like okay 112 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,800 I'm telling you everything I know let me let me just download all these things you know I wanted to 113 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:58,160 tell you but I couldn't because I felt like you might take my place it's interesting and fascinating 114 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:05,120 as that is but as far as persuasive techniques one of the things I want to mention and it's a 115 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,640 very specific technique and so if your listeners are are really tuned in and dialed into this I 116 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:17,200 want them to go get a piece of paper and write this down if you are a woman who is in business and you 117 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:24,800 are you are firm and or you come across as maybe you know maybe some people have said hey you're 118 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,680 you're kind of aggressive or you're kind of bossy or you know you you dominate conversations 119 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:34,640 which is so many of us in leadership positions have gotten that kind of feedback especially when 120 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:41,280 we're in a room full of that here's the one technique to use never ever start with your strongest 121 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:47,760 point first and it is so counterintuitive because you would think that would make you more competent it 122 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:54,640 would make you more more persuasive and actually all it does is it gets everybody in the room 123 00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:00,080 to think of the reasons why you're wrong to dig their heels in for what they believe against 124 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,760 what it is you are you are proposing so instead of starting with your strongest point first 125 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:11,920 even though we're taught to do that start with your point of agreement where can everybody in the 126 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:17,280 room agree and then move them down and I continue and we call it the convincing continuum in our book 127 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:22,560 we we give specific processes to us for how to do this but just a quick thumbnail sketch of it 128 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:29,600 would be you start with your point of agreement then you use fear wait what are their fears about 129 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,000 what you're proposing you use their uncertainty what is their uncertainty around what you're 130 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:41,280 proposing to create and cast some doubts in their mind about their own current biases that they 131 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:47,920 may have about what you're proposing and then this is the sneaky interesting technique that most 132 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:53,920 people don't do well then what you have to do is you have to give them just enough information 133 00:14:53,920 --> 00:15:02,400 to inspire them to go research what the possible solution is on their own so they can convince 134 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,280 themselves but most of us we start with our strongest point first we back it up with our emotional 135 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,080 argument we back it up with our fact-based argument we put all our cards in the table and we're 136 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,680 hoping we are convincing us when in actuality you start with your strongest point first you examine 137 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,360 fud fear uncertainty and doubt you make them doubt what they believed before and then you give them 138 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:30,960 just enough information so they want to go seek out more information and you stop you don't go to 139 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,640 their latitude of rejection this is based on 40 years of social science research if you go too far 140 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:44,240 if you are too forceful if you are too too in people's faces about things they will reject what you're 141 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,800 saying wholeheartedly and never come back to it again to hear your point of view so what I would say is 142 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,480 this isn't about being softer it's about just changing your approach a little bit and I think women 143 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,960 just has such a hard time with this it's like well I don't want to come across as weak I don't want to 144 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,720 come across as somebody who doesn't know what they're talking though I want to come across as competent 145 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,840 but in actuality what you should do is you should be coming across as someone who understands 146 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:16,000 what everybody else agrees within group then move them down the continuum and stop have the discipline 147 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:24,400 to stop but that is fantastic advice I think you're right women are so used in condition I'll 148 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:30,640 use the word condition to feel like they have to defend their ideas I mean they could have 149 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,720 the best GPA graduated from the best school practice for 20 years and they're still used to 150 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:43,840 explaining why their point is right and so that is fantastic sound sage advice because you're spot 151 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:50,800 on you just and what's that saying that says you know pick your battles sometimes you have to let it 152 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:56,160 go and you know circling this back to crisis management and stress you could fight fight fight 153 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,680 everybody's still you know and fight fight fight again and through this whole process 154 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:06,800 you could become more stressed and sometimes give your point like you said give them just enough 155 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:12,720 than counterpoint and just let them come back with you and sometimes I think just kind of one 156 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,960 other layer that we got to pick our battles right and and let go sometimes of that win but I think 157 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,840 we have to uncondition ourselves a little bit right I think as women women leaders and that's 158 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:32,400 yeah I mean the picking the battles I mean I think yes and no right it's like if you have something 159 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:39,760 you really believe in right it's like again though where do you want to show your competence 160 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,880 I think that's you know that's a great point that you're bringing up with where is it really important 161 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,280 that you show your competence women want to show their confidence all the time in all areas 162 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:54,000 I think that's what I think that's what you're talking about right let's like you know it's like you 163 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,320 can't you can't be competent all the time you can't be this much person through all the time you 164 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:05,040 have to come at it from a more indirect approach with these convincing strategies I love it I love 165 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:12,960 it that's great sage advice so chip I want to talk about from from your perspective more like 166 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:20,480 the like the male side as well talking about some common mistakes businesses make in high stakes 167 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:29,440 negotiation and how they can actually avoid these mistakes sure one of the things that we teach 168 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:38,080 often is this concept of forensic listening and really what it's all about and I think you 169 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:46,800 agree with us on this Melissa is that too often we set up a dichotomy that is a us versus them 170 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:55,280 or there's two sides and you know it's already the the the feel the vibe of the whole thing is off 171 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:03,840 and what we teach is this is the concept of forensic listening which is the art and science 172 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:12,000 and analysis of a conversation after it's happened because what we say is words leave clues and so 173 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:18,400 we tell people that we want you to examine a conversation and a person's interactions with you 174 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:25,200 whether they're leading a meeting or you're it's a one-on-one call or it's in person to look at it 175 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:32,640 from four different perspectives and the first perspective is their voice their pitched tone 176 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,600 cadence how what you know where are they up where they're down you know where is it that there's 177 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:43,760 there's pede and pacing picks up the other is the themes that they're developed what is it that 178 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,720 they are repeating what is it that you know because it's we know that if somebody repeats something 179 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,920 more than once then it's important to them which means it better be important to you 180 00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:01,280 and the other is the whole idea of body positioning which we differentiate a little bit from body 181 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:07,120 language because body positioning is that we are always you know creatures of movement and how we 182 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:14,320 interact in the world around us so so so it could be you know where is the person really you know 183 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:19,280 gesturing where are they animated where are they just kind of pulling back and maybe their energy 184 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:27,280 drops and then the the other is the emotion what emotion are they attaching to the themes and 185 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:33,920 you know to you hear it in their voice where does that happen and then you can start to dig in why 186 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:40,480 so so you have all those four things and what we say is you go back after you've had that 187 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:47,120 conversation do some quick note-taking so you know just to divide a page up into like four quadrants 188 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:53,280 or some corner of it and write in those things okay here under voice here this where they were 189 00:20:53,280 --> 00:21:01,280 body positions were themed development and and so on now you pull all that together and then you get 190 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,840 a kind of a distillation of who they are what they are and what is important to them 191 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,640 and then you take that and now let's say you go two weeks later you go up to that person and you say 192 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,320 you know that meeting that we had on you know in increasing our visibility on social media 193 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:25,840 I just realized that you know while you were talking in that meeting I sensed that you what you thought 194 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:32,160 was really an issue that we needed to follow through on was the whole idea of client development 195 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,440 and deepening these relationships and I just want you to know that I took that information 196 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,520 and I took it back to my team and I implemented a couple of things that you had mentioned 197 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,880 and it really made a big difference and I just wanted to say thank you 198 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:54,400 now imagine that throwing that kind of thing at framework into your day-to-day talks with clients 199 00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:01,760 interactions with board members financing whatever that is you are connecting with people 200 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:08,480 and clearly Melissa you're very skilled at this adept at this but there's so many people that 201 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:14,720 have difficulty with the idea of well wait I'm you know I've got I've got four points that I've got 202 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,040 to get I've got to get the numbers right I've got to make sure the deliverables are there and I have 203 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,480 to make sure I get dependent upon it and I got to hit all these things if I don't hit all these things 204 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:30,560 I'm in trouble right no it's about the connection you make that connection to a person you understand 205 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:36,560 them in a way that that no other vendor no other supplier no other you know company has yet 206 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:43,120 can you imagine the impact and you have you'll become a trusted advisor you'll become that go to 207 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:50,000 person that they call so it's that's what we advise we advise deepen that relationship take 208 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,880 a take a few steps back and figure out who they are what they are and how they want to be seen the 209 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,960 world and you'll have a friend for life well said you you're you're you're almost reading my 210 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:09,040 mind chip I was going to kind of moving that behavior analysis after and I want to just kind of a 211 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:16,800 quick story I had you mentioned clients and sales years ago I had been part of a call with a client that 212 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,880 I understood his personality understood his desk setup I knew how he moved I thought I knew a lot 213 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,640 about this person and the people on the other end of the conference called didn't and the guy kept 214 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:34,480 going like this during the call and kind of rolling his eyes and everybody like God he's such a rude 215 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:41,440 person well they didn't realize that how his desk was situated his camera and his monitor was in a 216 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:47,680 different location right so they thought his body language was really rude he's not interested he's 217 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:56,960 not engaging right and and so kind of to what you were saying is you know during FBI negotiations 218 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,960 it's really important to understand and watch body language tone voice the way their bodies moving 219 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:10,480 and so how can these as we correlate it back to people and their day to day how can these type of 220 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:17,840 techniques benefit business leaders and their day to day operations with their personnel oh that's 221 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:25,280 a great question absolutely and you apply this it in terms of so you take this framework and you 222 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,880 apply to each person on your team anybody that reports you anybody that's an important relationship 223 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:37,040 in the dynamic of your company you had better have some type of what we call pattern of life 224 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:43,680 of on that individual this is their their kind of baseline behavior and you want to know that person 225 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,800 so thoroughly that you're going to you're going to not only detect when they're in a bad mood everybody's 226 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,840 is always kind of off the day must have a job you know bad commute something going on at home but you 227 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,880 should know that person's hopes dreams and aspirations you should even know the things that they're 228 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:05,280 not telling you one of the principles in our book is this idea of the unstated narrative and the 229 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,600 unstated narrative is simply that there is a disconnect between what somebody actually believes 230 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,200 about you your company who you are as a leader who you are as a salesperson and what they'll tell 231 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:24,480 you to your face so so we all we all have to have this right in order for defunction as a as a 232 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:32,400 society we have to have these rules but if you're able to get closer to what that person's unstated 233 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,440 narrative what they actually are you know reticent about what is it what are their holdbacks why 234 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:44,720 might it be that they in particular have this one thing that seems to be you know just not working 235 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:52,240 figure that out come close to it and when you're talking to that person next say you know I just 236 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,840 noticed that you know when we brought up and I heard your team talking about that there was an idea 237 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:04,400 that was pushed out and you seem to really have a you know just when the opposite direction and kind 238 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:11,120 of shut down you know I'm just wondering is is there something behind that is there you know 239 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:18,080 perhaps you know you're it's just that you have a you have a bad feeling about this one team member 240 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:24,400 could that be it and what you're doing is you're taking again your knowledge of who that person is 241 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,880 again their baseline what the pattern of life is like and that might have been out of character for 242 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:35,200 them so now you're you're asking them to to say all right you you're identifying one thing you have 243 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:41,360 a bad feeling about that person and you're giving them an opportunity to talk and say no it's not 244 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:47,360 that I have a bad feeling about that person it's just that that idea I we heard that before it didn't 245 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:53,600 work last time and I really wanted the team to stretch okay appreciate that thank you for that and 246 00:26:53,600 --> 00:27:01,040 hey that's great and then tied into leadership validate them in some way so all things yeah yeah 247 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,600 just really quickly to add to that right like I'm just thinking throughout my career and Melissa I 248 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,960 love for you to weigh in here too right like I'm thinking about all the bosses that I have throughout 249 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:21,600 my career and I would say no one took an interest in what my goals my aspirations my beliefs where I 250 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,920 wanted to go no one really took an interest I mean occasionally they would really care you want 251 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,680 this training because it's in our budget and we just we we we put it in like hey we've got every year 252 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,440 it's a yearly budget why don't you want to go do they this thing no one really took an interest and I 253 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:43,920 just think if more companies if more leaders if more managers took an interest in the people they 254 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:51,200 were actually managing and through way these old concepts of like the sandwich method and and 255 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,080 pips which should never work really because you never really get into the heart of the matter right 256 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,120 all of these things that were all taught in management and leadership that was supposed to work to 257 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:07,360 move someone to change and move someone to do more of what we want to change their approach idea 258 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:16,080 to motivate them really is broken and and our book our book what it really does is it examines 259 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,600 what motivates people to change how you can do it in everyday settings and things like listening 260 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:28,800 in a deep deep level with forensic listening this will make all the difference if you take one 261 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:36,000 thing away from our book and trust me we have like 50 actionable takeaways in our book more even 262 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,400 but if you take away forensic listening as the one thing that you do everyone on your team will feel 263 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:50,320 more hurt more seen more validated and their emotions will be actually felt by the person that 264 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:57,600 managing them I mean think about the level of retention the level of excitement people will have 265 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,200 to come into their job the way at which people will work even if you don't pay them more if you do 266 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:10,480 this if you do this this is what people want they want validation within anything oh well said and I 267 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:17,600 I also echo you I haven't had a lot of in my W2 jobs I've I've not had a lot of people that 268 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,600 actively were trying to help me get to where I'm going if ever and to your earlier point you know 269 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,720 mentors and leaders in your company I agree with you find someone outside your company because 270 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:37,040 they're going to have a bias when you work inside that company man or woman so I absolutely echo 271 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,800 that from your perspective and and I do listening you know the analogy always plates your my 272 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,760 mind you have two years in one mouth use them proportionately and although we laugh and joke about it 273 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:56,000 very few people are actively listening to understand because we're listening to respond or defend 274 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,480 or whatever the reason that we're we're listening and so I absolutely agree with you and 275 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:09,920 and from your perspective as out how do you incorporate behavior analysis from a PR lens let's 276 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:19,760 take a look at from your lens using your PR experience and how people can use what they see to 277 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:27,520 effectively communicate in any capacity yeah so a couple of different things right I mean there's 278 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:34,720 so much you can use from a PR perspective just from messaging what does that person sound like 279 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,960 well how do they come across what words do they use I think not to brag but I think I'm really 280 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:47,840 good at messaging because I pay deep attention to how people talk and if you and especially when I 281 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:55,440 was dealing with like heads of state CEOs of major multi-billion dollar companies my my PR 282 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,280 counterparts a lot of times would hand them messaging that got all of what they wanted to get across 283 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:09,840 but did not sound anything like the person they were actually writing them for and or they would 284 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,800 just deliver too many messages at once and they weren't really taking into account how this person 285 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:20,320 had to memorize and what fears they were had and how they they feared they were going to come across and 286 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:28,960 I think that is so critical in being good at messaging and being good at representing other 287 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:35,680 executives so that's that's that's certainly one level the other the other the other recommendation I 288 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,640 would have and this is like a more simple kind of profiling method right and chip really is like the 289 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,760 expert on like reading people he's so much better at this than me that I could ever be right I mean 290 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:53,760 this he's trained at this this is like his his expertise and it is not mine but but but I would say like 291 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,800 you know street smart girl from New York New Jersey I think I so I think I have some good 292 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:06,480 situation all awareness but one thing I would say is understand what your convincing style is like 293 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:14,480 and and know what what the other person's convincing style or preferences are like 294 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,240 and be able to adapt and here's what I mean so Melissa would you say you're more and this is just a 295 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:26,320 gut does a gut reaction so it's not it's not like it's not like you're just one or just the other but 296 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:33,200 we think there's two convincing styles right you're either an emotional convincing so you use stories 297 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:41,920 you use feelings use emotions or you're a fact-based convinced or you use stats use data use research 298 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:48,320 to to to bring your point home what would you say you're your your emotional yeah I would agree too 299 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:53,440 I that's what I would think too right you're definitely a story-based person right like that is like 300 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,400 what how you communicate and how you bring it right but when you're talking to someone else who 301 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:05,840 is a fact-based convinced or or likes to be convinced from facts do you adapt and do you come at them 302 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:12,480 first with facts and you come at them with data and our preference usually what we like to do is we 303 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,840 go we're just we're to convince them that we we want to be convinced and that is so backwards 304 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,840 and just if you come at them from that more back-based approach and that's what they want you know 305 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:29,040 that's the kind of data they want and I'll tell a quick funny story I wanted to buy a Mercedes 306 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:37,920 and I really wanted to buy when I had made a significant revenue amount and I got pushback 307 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:46,320 from my now ex-husband there's a reason but to buy the car right and and he was like we're really 308 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,840 I don't know I'm like okay you know he's the fact I'm like I look so good at it come on it's the car 309 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,480 they always I've always wanted best you know I wanted I want a Mercedes because it spells success 310 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,360 and like again I'm coming from that emotional argument like every time I'll get in it I'll feel good 311 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,320 I'll remember my accomplishment and he was like whatever okay and I'm like all right he's an 312 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,360 engineer you know that's not how he wants to be convinced so I went and I did some research I'm like 313 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:17,280 Mercedes are the safest safest luxury car in the market they've got the best resale value 314 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:23,360 that you know they've got they maintain the right whatever whatever and then he was like okay 315 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,240 I'll buy it but I should about the car to begin with there's another lesson in that ladies but 316 00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:35,040 anyway I shouldn't have even asked but the point is is that like you have to come at your convincing 317 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,320 approach the way the person wants to receive it and most of us won't adapt at all at all 318 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,760 at all because we don't think about it you nailed it it's I love that you're talking about that 319 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,800 because I'm very high energy and if I walk up to a lower calmer lower energy person they're like 320 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:59,280 whoa they've been hit by you know a train right and so I think you're spot on with understanding who 321 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:06,160 you're talking to and how they need the information so if it's facts give them facts if it's stories 322 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:12,480 given stories and really I forget that book but five secrets of love languages are I think there's 323 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:20,000 one in the workplace now and so learning who you work with and how they respond is very helpful 324 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,640 with success on building teams and working cohesively in in the corporate America today and one 325 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,480 way to determine how some what someone's style is and we we have this in the book and I kind of love 326 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:40,160 this ask them about the most recent vacation they took and see what they focus on about the vacations 327 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:46,880 is it where they stayed how much they paid what the hotel was their experiences that's more of 328 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:52,080 that's more of a back-based person who's more focused on money versus the person who's like it was 329 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:58,000 so nice to spend time with family I got to unwind that it's just gonna tell you so much about who they 330 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,560 are and what kind of convince her they are and what is it was just don't pay attention to small talk 331 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,960 but small talk is anything but small it actually tells you so much about who the person is. 332 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:13,920 100% I agree that's a great tip I'm gonna totally pivot years now and talk about 333 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:20,800 I love the discussion about talking about fear and how to overcome it I grew up with a father 334 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:26,240 that was military and so what I thought was normal is not really normal because a lot of times 335 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:32,480 we're paralyzed by fear in the world like fear of applying for a job or you know fear of flying on a 336 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:39,760 plane or whatever the fear is we're so paralyzed by fear and then when life happens because it's 337 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:46,800 gonna happen to all of us we're gonna have to respond to the situations that happen to us in our 338 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:53,040 life so I want to talk ship you know fear is a significant factor in high stakes negotiation 339 00:36:53,040 --> 00:37:02,000 and what technique you're using is key during negotiation and so can you share a little bit about 340 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,360 how to manage fear and maintain composure when you're trying to negotiate anything? 341 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:17,760 Yeah absolutely one of the I guess leading concepts that that we talk about is the idea of 342 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:26,960 the dial-in method or reversing the focus so so for example as a hostage negotiator I actually never 343 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:33,680 negotiated with anyone that wasn't my job it's kind of a misnomer my job was to convince that person 344 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:42,000 who had a gun to somebody's head in that apartment to value what I valued which was life which was 345 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,680 peaceful surrender which was releasing the hostages now it didn't start there it didn't it never 346 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:53,280 started there right because their way escalated they you know they're in crisis mode they've got that 347 00:37:53,280 --> 00:38:02,080 reptilian brain online and their analyticals are all the way down at all present so my job was to 348 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:08,880 slowly like Adele was saying in the convincing continuum to bring them down from I want 20 million 349 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:16,960 dollars in a jet to hey can you help me get out of here alive that's that was the idea that's what 350 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:25,440 it now that's a process but in order to get there you know I had to dial in to that person to such a 351 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:35,360 degree that everything else falls away here's what I mean is that if I'm thinking about he's got 352 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:44,640 five people in there he's got a gun and if I'm focusing on the gun Melissa I'm lost because all I'm 353 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:52,240 thinking now is bad outcomes that guy's got a weapon he's violent he's you know he's up and down he's 354 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:59,920 he's you know obviously in crisis mode what if I say they're wrong what if I do is it and I'm thinking 355 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:06,560 about the gun and what it can do so instead of thinking about the gun for and for your example for 356 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:13,760 executives that are dealing with a high pressure situation what is that thing that is like a gun to them 357 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,560 it could be I got to make this number I don't get this number in the negotiation my boss is gonna 358 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:26,080 eat me alive or I know if I miss the second point here and I don't come through on it I'm dead 359 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:34,400 whatever that gun is for you get it out of your head and focus instead on that individual 360 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,280 that you're dealing with can I just go ahead and something real quickly because I just think 361 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,480 this is such a poignant thing have you guys been watching the Olympics I mean it has just been right it 362 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,840 is so interesting okay so last night and I don't want to date the podcast but last night there were 363 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:57,680 a bunch of gymnasts and there was this high beam being activity right and the best girl the best 364 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,960 girl fell off the high beam and then the girl after her she fell and then the next girl she fell 365 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,800 and so on and so forth I mean like they all fell and the girl the girl who won the gold medal was like 366 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:14,960 I can't believe I won the gold medal because I just did the routine as I needed to she didn't fall 367 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,840 that's how she got the gold medal she just did not fall and I think that that is just such an 368 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:26,320 interesting throughline to what you just said Chip I think there's emotional contagion if you see 369 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:32,960 someone in stressful situations if you think about their stress and you take it on it could actually 370 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:39,680 make you less effective it could make you less in the game less in the moment and less likely to 371 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:45,920 get the outcomes you want in business and so I think you've got to take with Chip saying take 372 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:53,200 their stress understand it and then detach from it how do you do that Chip like how do you detach 373 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,200 from it yes I'm sorry Melissa one but yeah interesting yeah I think you're right because there I 374 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:03,600 come flashy shiny things the gun could be one of the flashy shiny thing there's a ton of distractions 375 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,720 it could be the bar it could be the audience it could be the noise it could be all the things that's 376 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:15,200 going on around you and and these athletes are you know they're in interesting living conditions 377 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,400 there's people yelling there's a lot going on people are yelling they're in a high pressure high 378 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:27,840 state environment and they all want the gold so to kind of your point is you don't focus on the 379 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:33,120 the rain that's outside or the beam that's this or the yelling of the crowd you focus on your mission 380 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:39,360 your mission is to get gold and it's to land on that beam it's across the finish line and there's 381 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,000 going to be people that are trying to get you off your game like everything in life people are like oh 382 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,880 you know she's a really good speaker or he's really good at business and there's always going to 383 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,720 be these people that are taking us off our game and that is where what you guys are talking about is 384 00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:01,440 key because when you can focus on your game whatever your game is and get the emotion out of it and 385 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:08,320 forget about the gun and focus on getting that person out of the room safely and you can sound 386 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,240 convincing and calm and you can kind of I don't want to you know metaphysically say like throw 387 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:21,040 your energy over the line but you can you can mean mean what you say and so you're you're right I 388 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,760 think Adele you're spot on and Chip I'd love to also get your perspective on that 389 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:32,960 yeah it is it's it's it's that simple it's about you know you have to remember is who's crisis is 390 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:40,800 this you know not yours you're there simply to help this person through that I can't go in 391 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:46,880 knock the gun out of his hand pull the hostages out there's a reason that I have to use my voice to 392 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:54,320 talk to him but I'm not caught up into what is going on with that gun I'm caught up with let's 393 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,840 deal with your issues let you know you're you're you're it today we're going to deal with you 394 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,400 you know because that's the only way I can help anybody you dial in so much to that other person 395 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,560 right Chip that everything else falls away right I'm not thinking about the helicopters overhead 396 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:16,160 or the squawking on the radios or you know the press that's outside or the sirens I'm only focused in 397 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:21,760 on what's in front of you just that Melissa what you saying about the metaphysical thing is so fascinating 398 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:27,440 because when we when we wrote the book we actually talked to a neuroscientist whose name is Michael 399 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:33,200 plaque doctor Michael plaque and he's such an interesting and inspiring person too to follow 400 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,600 so definitely check out this stuff if you haven't but one of the things he talks about is this idea 401 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:44,160 of sinking sinking with another person so you're telling them stories group activities there's 402 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:50,400 different ways which you literally neurologically sink with another person so what you're saying about 403 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:56,960 the metaph... I mean it's a thing it's an actual thing in neuroscience at which if you dial into a person 404 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:05,760 if you sink with them at such a level you know Chip is so your eyebrow go off you can be super effective 405 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:11,360 right I mean like maybe maybe I'm getting to am I getting to woo well okay it's really true right I think 406 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:18,800 you're right so if you look at I'll take one of my favorites Michael Jordan I'll take Simone Biles 407 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:25,600 we saw with her with the gold you know they're focusing on what they're doing right everybody's 408 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,640 trying to press her oh she's gonna get another gold is she not gonna get another gold now when 409 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:37,600 when when she hears she's not gonna get another gold she can either say A screw them I'm getting a 410 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:43,280 gold anyway and move it out of the mind and focus on the gold or she could say oh you're right I 411 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,800 didn't practice enough I'm not strong on this the other girl's stronger I'm not sure I'm not feeling 412 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:55,840 great my stomach's hurting and we could go down this deep deep dark rabbit hole of overthinking 413 00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:02,240 over-processing and so there is some truth to that you know as an athlete I've done a lot of 414 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:09,280 visualizing myself frost the finish line you know being better than I really was and really just 415 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:15,840 focusing on not so much everything that was around me but what was I could control right and we 416 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:22,640 can't control the gun we can't control the people on the other side but we can control how we're 417 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:29,840 reacting and what we can control in our environment so Melissa can can you unpack that just I find 418 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:36,080 what you just said so interesting could you yeah for me for me could you unpack the idea of how 419 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:43,120 do you get yourself out of that bad space but I mean I just think that's that's something nobody 420 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:50,080 really talks about it's like that overthinking that over like over-analysing room and nation so many 421 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:57,680 of us do how do you pull yourself out of that because there's a comfort in the failure isn't there 422 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:03,760 because the the failure sort of predictable the success is what's what's unpredictable how how 423 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:08,080 would you advise people to how would you advise them to get out of that I'm sorry I just I just 424 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:16,320 I'm like I'm dying yeah I think you know you know I grew up you know you know I was way behind 425 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:21,040 scholastically starting and so many people are like oh she's not gonna do this she's not gonna be doing 426 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,480 that and and I'll give like the hurt my early childhood credits my dad because he sat me down young 427 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:32,880 and he said hey look everybody's gonna tell you you can't you have to decide if you can or you can't 428 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:39,280 and get rid of all the noise so I think a lot of its practice like how do we get good at negotiation 429 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,160 how do we get good at confidence confidence we don't just all wake up with confidence we're not 430 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:49,280 born with it none of us are born with it we have to fall off our bike and get back on the bike 431 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,720 again and fall off again and scratch our knee and realize you know you got to slow down downhill and 432 00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:02,480 I think it's just practice and then when there's that noise around us like the people that are like oh 433 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:08,000 why did you post that or why are you wearing that or hey you you're really aggressive in these emails 434 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,720 it's part of its awareness I believe that you know if somebody I've been told all kinds of things 435 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:19,360 that I absolutely disagree with and I tell that person I'm sorry you feel that way 436 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:25,760 I have many others who would disagree and I give them back that energy right because I'm not taking 437 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:31,680 on their you know belief that they think that I'm not smart enough to finish first grade 438 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,640 so I'm like I'm sorry you feel that way my dad feels that I'm gonna pass it so I'm gonna focus on 439 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:43,440 that right so give it back give that negative you know when I had a child older people are like oh no 440 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:48,400 you're gonna be in the hospital you're not gonna be able to do it you're too old and I just you 441 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,040 know I joked out I was telling people hey I'm making a baby you're take back your negative energy and 442 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:59,840 and and I think it's just as simple as that is deciding what you let in and what you let out and 443 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:05,920 when you question yourself like I'm sure all these athletes are like God can I do it so and 444 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:12,400 so is better so and so is faster focusing on on you yep I'm gonna get gold I'm gonna hit the 445 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,840 finish line I'm gonna get a PR I got this I'm feeling good I'm feeling healthy you know sometimes 446 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:23,360 you got to move your body to do it right like you said all day you're like you know sluggish you 447 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:28,000 got to get up and move so I think you know I don't I'm not sure if I answered your question but I 448 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,520 think really it's not taking in all the negativity that's around us these days and then it's 449 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:39,760 like pushing some of it out and if there is validation for some of it let's say someone 450 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:45,280 gives you some that you agree with work on it right I've been given all kinds of advice that I 451 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,880 disagree and agree with it some I flushed down the toilet and others of it I actually worked on 452 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:58,640 and made myself a better person and a better leader and so I think it's up to us to decide whose 453 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:05,520 noise we're gonna take on in a world that's constantly moving faster constantly changing you know 454 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,080 we're all gonna struggle with you know what you guys teach right we're all gonna struggle with 455 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:20,080 making tough decisions and so I think it's just practice to Adel yeah oh yes totally I agree I agree 456 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,680 you know early on in my career I had I had someone I had someone say like you know you're 457 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:33,040 you know you're you're just not a really good writer and I'm like hmm um like okay um that's 458 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,840 interesting that's an interesting piece of feedback like what where where did that come from because 459 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:43,120 I've always been told all my life that I'm a good writer like maybe they've got some feedback 460 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:48,640 but then I went and I looked and I realized they're not a good writer they weren't a good writer 461 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:55,360 and it made me go like I don't really take why am I taking criticism from someone else I don't 462 00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,640 respect I don't think has more talent than me it's like I think sometimes we don't analyze that we just 463 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:08,400 take in that like insult and we internalize it instead of going who is who is saying it who is 464 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,320 the messenger because that's also one of those things right they can get you out of that the 465 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:17,360 dark spot right do you respect them are they do they have what you want whatever it is 466 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:24,320 right so if you want to hear the spying CEO or an aspiring mom or a spider spying gardener 467 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,760 to the person that's giving you feedback how would you want or do they have no skill set if they don't 468 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:36,720 and they're not they could just be you know giving you noise trying to tear you down all those 469 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:44,640 kind of negative words that go with it so um we get to decide that is humans and um that's up to us 470 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,840 and our individual life and our community that can you know pull that forward for us but I want to 471 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,600 just kind of enclosing get each of your just final thoughts or anything that we I know we've covered a 472 00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,640 lot of ground anything that we may have missed or anything that you want to share with our listeners as 473 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:08,880 we close out the one thing I would say is that um there was a study done just last year on judgment 474 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:16,240 and decision making and it said that most of us are as convincing as we will ever be at age six 475 00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:20,160 and if you're a mom and your mom's or listening parents are listening you you know kids that are six 476 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,480 are pretty convincing they're pretty good negotiators right by the time you're six you understand 477 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:31,680 supply and demand self-interest um I mean like all kinds of really high high level negotiation 478 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:37,600 tactics but most of us stop at about first grade from being convinced if we because if we solve 479 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:42,240 in the playground we're likely going to solve for being office because it got us where we wanted to go 480 00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:50,400 to do what I would just implore people to do is to take on this book to read it to study it to actually 481 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,960 implement these tactics some of which make you uncomfortable or maybe some of which you don't want 482 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,120 to implement because you've always done it a certain way and you've gotten pretty good results 483 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:05,600 what I would say is maybe it's you maybe some of the strategies that you've used that haven't gotten 484 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,000 you the results you want you want is because you're not willing to adapt you know willing to 485 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,360 try new things because it's scary and what I would say is go try to think her to in our book just one or 486 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:22,080 two and it will be so much more convincing as a result and that's a really great point um one thing 487 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:28,800 at a time not ten things right you you keyed one really important nugget is one thing you can't 488 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:36,560 implement 50 strategies you can implement one and I would suggest the one that is closest to 489 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:41,920 achieving success right whatever the easiest low-hanging fruit is hit that first and then kind of 490 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:48,560 strengthen your muscle and go for the harder thing so I love that you mentioned one um chip any 491 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:56,880 your final thoughts that we may have missed you know I just would like to you know emphasize and 492 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:02,320 encourage just like a down just did is is that you know these skill sets like the forensic listening 493 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,360 you know even if you're just you know you concoble together all right I'm listening to the voice 494 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:13,440 here and I'm paying attention to the themes or you know just bringing some of that into the to the 495 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:18,960 four ways of observing somebody you use one or two of them but you're you're gonna get better 496 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:25,280 as you do this right it's about reps and if you do reps in the right way uh that that we you know 497 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:31,760 advocate you're gonna be so much more ahead of of the person that just is mailing it in 498 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,880 yep you know because you're trying you're trying to make a connection 499 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:47,040 absolutely well said I thank you both so much for being here your time get their book connect with um 500 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:58,880 that's the executive connect podcast 501 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:08,880 [BLANK_AUDIO]