1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,880 grief is not something you get over, okay? 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,040 Person dies, you grieve, and then you move on. 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:07,800 Grief is something you move through, 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,640 and it's for the rest of your life. 5 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,220 (gentle music) 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:30,520 - Hi there, grief growers. 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,640 I am so grateful to be here with you as always. 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:34,760 If you've been growing alongside me 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,400 in my work for a while, welcome back. 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,000 And if you are new to me and my work, hello. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,640 My name is Shelby Frisitia. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,640 I am a grief coach, three time author, 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,240 and the founder of Life After Loss Academy, 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,080 where I've helped dozens of grieving people 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,240 stop feeling lost, stuck, broken, and alone, 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,920 and start building lives that they genuinely love 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,920 from the lives that loss force them to live. 18 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,800 This includes not only death-related losses, 19 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,040 but also losses like divorce and breakup, 20 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,880 major diagnosis, and every other type of loss 21 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,480 that changes your life. 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,560 Here on grief grower, we believe that grief 23 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,040 is not something we get over. 24 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,600 It is something that we grow with and alongside, 25 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,960 and that when we stop treating grief like a problem 26 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,880 to be solved and start treating it like an invitation 27 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,920 to live more deeply, we can create meaningful lives 28 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,080 that are rich with the memories we carry, 29 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,760 the struggles that we faced, and the preciousness 30 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,560 of what it means to be right here and right now. 31 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,800 Today on the show, I'm bringing you my conversation 32 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,200 with Gordon Brewer. 33 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,720 Together, we talked about caregiving 34 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,120 as a form of surrender, especially for men 35 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,520 who are often expected to fix things in our society. 36 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,000 How grief can change your relationship to God and religion? 37 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,960 And what to do if you're sitting in the pain 38 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:48,200 or uncertainty of a life that you never would have asked for? 39 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,640 Here is Gordon's bio. 40 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Gordon Brewer is the person behind the practice 41 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,880 of therapy podcast and a licensed marital 42 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,320 and family therapist. 43 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,560 He has 20 plus years in the mental wellness 44 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,240 and grief recovery fields. 45 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,040 He is the owner of a small group practice 46 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,040 in Kingsport, Tennessee. 47 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,440 Gordon is also a widowed person and knows firsthand 48 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,600 the impact of grief on people's lives. 49 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,480 Let's get to our conversation. 50 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,440 Grief growers, I am so delighted today 51 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:16,960 to introduce you to Gordon Brewer, 52 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,120 who is the host of the Practice of Therapy Podcast. 53 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,080 Gordon, tell us more about your lost story, 54 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,120 your relationship to grief, and how you got here. 55 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,360 Wow, that's a great question. 56 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,960 And I'll try to shorten it as best I can. 57 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,200 But one of the things about me before I became a therapist 58 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,160 was I worked in the funeral industry. 59 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,240 I was a funeral director and also an embalmer. 60 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,720 I worked in that for almost 20 years. 61 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,600 And then went back to graduate school, 62 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,880 got my degree in counseling just mainly 63 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,120 because I wanted to do more to help people. 64 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,440 I felt like just walking people through a funeral 65 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,920 is helpful, but I wanted to do more in depth 66 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:01,520 and learn how to do therapy. 67 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,880 And I had majored in psychology and college. 68 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,880 And then fast forward to 2010, my wife was diagnosed 69 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,520 with breast cancer. 70 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,520 And so went through all the ups and downs of that over 13 years. 71 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,080 It metastasized your brain. 72 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,600 And then she passed away in 2023. 73 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,600 And so going through that with my daughter as well, 74 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,680 which my wife was first diagnosed with cancer. 75 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,960 She, my daughter was just going into high school. 76 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,520 And it was also when I was making a transition 77 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,680 from working in a nonprofit sector 78 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,680 for an organization that worked with that risk children 79 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,520 and youth, I went into private practice at that time. 80 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,480 So, but also as we had talked about previously Shelby, 81 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,080 it was one of the things that during my tenure 82 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,720 in the funeral business is I really got interested 83 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,720 in grief, grief therapy, and just helping people with grief. 84 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,040 And it was really at a time period 85 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,720 where the whole phenomenon of people really acknowledging 86 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,760 grief and how we handle grief was coming 87 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,600 more into the forefront. 88 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,680 I think it's interesting how grief has been 89 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,680 kind of under the surface the whole time. 90 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,080 And then going through my own grief with my wife's death 91 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,000 and being a caregiver and the ups and downs of that. 92 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,520 And then I do supervision with some therapists 93 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,120 that are working towards licensure. 94 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,560 So I just love talking about grief and working with grief. 95 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,600 That sounds kind of like an oxymoron, 96 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,640 but I really am passionate about it. 97 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:50,520 I love that. 98 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,480 Well, and here it's not a weird thing to say, 99 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,000 but like if you go out in the world and say, 100 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,880 I love talking about grief, people look at you like, 101 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,280 you have two heads. 102 00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:00,760 But here it's absolutely not a strange thing to say. 103 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,200 I think the first place I want to go is my brain went back 104 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,360 to 2010 and the moment of your wife's diagnosis. 105 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,120 And I think a lot of people who are listening 106 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,920 to this podcast care givers have been care givers 107 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,240 as a part of their grief experience, 108 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,800 but especially from a spouse or a loved one's perspective, 109 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,400 I think in our society, we say in marriage 110 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,360 and like in sickness and in health and all these treatments, 111 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,280 we make to each other. 112 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:28,200 And at the moment of her diagnosis, 113 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,440 was there a conversation between the two of you 114 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,160 of what is this about to be? 115 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,560 Who are we about to become? 116 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,760 Or was it, well, we're getting on the rollercoaster 117 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,880 and we'll see what happens, 118 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,320 which is also a very valid point to take in and as parents. 119 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,760 How did you fold your daughter into the conversation 120 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,920 of the experience of what was happening? 121 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,080 So kind of take us through if you could 122 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,920 from the moment of diagnosis and then like, 123 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,600 how was there any idea of what the next 13 years 124 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,200 would become with each other? 125 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,200 - Well, I think what we all do when we're faced 126 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,280 with a potentially terminal illness, 127 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:09,480 the type of breast cancer that she was diagnosed with 128 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,040 was had like a five year life expectancy, 129 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,040 I did the recent, you know, looked it up. 130 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,920 The doctors didn't tell us that. 131 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,520 And so I just kind of took it on myself to kind of find, 132 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,440 okay, what are we up against here? 133 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,440 And I think, you know, even though I'm a grief expert, 134 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,000 so to speak, when you're going through it yourself, 135 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,920 it's a totally different animal. 136 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,920 You just get into, as I like to call it, just go mode. 137 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,080 You just, you go through the different things 138 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,440 and say, okay, we're going to figure this out. 139 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,040 And my wife and I talked about that some. 140 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,520 I think to some degree, she was a little bit 141 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,840 in denial about what was happening to her, 142 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:56,560 which I get. 143 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Most people in kind of the grief world know about 144 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,360 Elizabeth Kubler-Ross when she was kind of the first person 145 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,800 to really talk about stages of grief, 146 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,600 which when they interviewed Elizabeth later on, 147 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,680 she said she wished she hadn't put it in stages 148 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,320 because grief is not one, two, three, a linear thing. 149 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,040 It's a mixture of things. 150 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,200 And so, but she had written it about people, 151 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,520 really written it about people who were being diagnosed 152 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,880 with a potentially terminal illness. 153 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,120 - Yes. - Of course, 154 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,280 of course at the time when she was diagnosed, 155 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,280 we were giving a good bit of hope in that. 156 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Okay, we're going to be able to do these things 157 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,240 and she had a double mastectomy to kind of, 158 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,200 okay, we're going to nip it in the butt. 159 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,200 Her cancer was at a stage three, I think, whatever. 160 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,440 But you kind of mentally prepare for the worst, I think. 161 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,920 When you get the news, you think, okay, 162 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,520 what do I need to do? 163 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,520 And that might be more of a male perspective on grief 164 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,400 and there's something I need to do, 165 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,440 something I need to do to fix this, 166 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,280 I need to conquer this, I need to protect this, 167 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:13,920 I need to whatever. 168 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,920 And what happens, I think, is that I think a lot of, 169 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,640 for me, and especially they might feel like they have failed 170 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,120 at something because they haven't been able to protect 171 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,560 their loved one from this or their spouse from this. 172 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,120 And so, yeah. 173 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,600 And so, that's part of the phenomenon there. 174 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,600 But then, you go through the initial treatment, 175 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,520 the surgery, and then she had radiation, 176 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,400 she had chemo, then radiation treatment, 177 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,760 and they're thinking, okay, we're all good, she's clear. 178 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,320 The last scans didn't show any more cancer. 179 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,080 And then you go back, and so you're living 180 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,960 from scan to scan, essentially. 181 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,040 And then it seemed like every two years, 182 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,320 she'd go for her scan, and there'd be a hotspot 183 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,320 that would show up, and so they'd go in and take care of that. 184 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,400 She had another, she had to have another surgery 185 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,280 for, you know, removing some lip nodes 186 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,040 that they discovered that had, were cancerous, 187 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,160 and so they removed those, and then more radiation, 188 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:19,560 radiation treatment. 189 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:24,280 And then, at her work, she started complaining about, 190 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,240 not being able to see things peripherally. 191 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,000 She was having trouble with her peripheral vision. 192 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,920 And she actually went to her eye doctor and optometrists, 193 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,880 and he said, well, I don't know what it is, 194 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,400 it's probably nothing, and, you know, 195 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:41,720 just kind of minimized it. 196 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,880 Well, that was the first signs of her brain tumor. 197 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,120 And so, it had my testecised to her brain, 198 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,200 and then she was at work, and it just, she totally blanked out, 199 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,560 and passed out, and they had to call ambulance, 200 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,960 and I was struggling to get there 201 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,760 and figure out what was going on. 202 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,840 And basically, the doctors at the time were kind of well, 203 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,400 we're not going to treat her, they were treating her like, 204 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,720 oh, well, this is going to be terminal, 205 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,360 so we're not going to take her kind of thing, 206 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,440 was what I read between the lines. 207 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,360 But fortunately, her doctor advocated for her, 208 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,120 and got her to King's Fort, and we were very fortunate 209 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,880 that it happened to be when she got there. 210 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,240 There was also a neurosurgeon that was there, 211 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,600 friends of the oncologist, 212 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,600 and they got her into surgery within two days. 213 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,880 And so, of course, at that point, 214 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,080 you're thinking, okay, brain tumor, this is it. 215 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,240 You get yourself prepared mentally, 216 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,840 and you think, okay, how am I going to do this? 217 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Get my daughter prepared, she had just started college. 218 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,080 So, I mean, I was communicating with her, 219 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,720 and she tried to figure out, do I need to come home? 220 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,720 All this kind of stuff, and you just go into this zone, 221 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,480 okay, I'm going to go through the motions here, 222 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,800 and do all the things to make this work. 223 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,960 And so, then fast forward, 224 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,360 she, after they did the surgery, 225 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,200 fortunately, it was on the surface of her brain, 226 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,000 and they were able to get to it easily, 227 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,120 and their work, they didn't seem like it had spread 228 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,920 into the brain anywhere, it was kind of encapsulated. 229 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,200 But at the time, they said, okay, 230 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,840 we want to do whole brain radiation 231 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,120 to make sure we got everything. 232 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,320 And they kind of told us, well, these are things 233 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,640 that can happen with that. 234 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,840 And on hindsight, I think we probably both would have said, 235 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,000 no, let's not do that. 236 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,240 But essentially what it does is it literally zaps your brain, 237 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,240 and so her brain began to atrophile, get smaller. 238 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,080 And so it created dementia, and just a slow deterioration 239 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,040 of her brain over time. 240 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,080 And then dealing with the other hot spots 241 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,480 in the last two or three years, 242 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,040 she was wheelchair bound, had to have caregivers in the home. 243 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,440 And I think when you're in the middle of that, 244 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,160 as a caregiver, you don't really, at least for me, 245 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,800 I didn't realize how bad it really was. 246 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,040 I mean, just how much I was taking on, 247 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,560 and really trying to navigate all that. 248 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,760 And then there's, that we could spend a whole episode 249 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,640 just talking about how it changed my relationship with her. 250 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,640 When you go from being a spouse to being a caregiver, 251 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760 it's like they're no longer your spouse. 252 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,600 It's like you're taking care of a parent, 253 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,080 or a grandparent, or a child, or something. 254 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,760 And so there was probably a lot, 255 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,120 in addition to the anticipatory grief, 256 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,840 in other words, expecting the worst, 257 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,920 and kind of going through the grieving process ahead of time, 258 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,120 there's also that detachment of, 259 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,480 okay, I'm a caregiver mode now. 260 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,080 I no longer have a spouse, I have someone I'm caring for. 261 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,520 It's interesting how, you know, as a therapist, 262 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,400 I get a lot of people that are going through the same thing, 263 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,080 which I love working with people like that. 264 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,760 But I know even in my own therapy, that was a big thing 265 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,360 that I had to deal with, as the guilt feelings of, 266 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,320 well, I no longer feel the same way about her. 267 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,560 I no longer feel any sort of romantic feelings, 268 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:29,520 or any of that sort of thing. 269 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,480 And, you know, come to find out, you know, 270 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,640 that's pretty typical for people that are in a long-term 271 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,360 caregiving situation with a spouse, 272 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,800 and that all of that changes. 273 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,080 One of the things about me is I'm also a clergy person 274 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,480 in the Episcopal Church, and so, 275 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,760 the whole existential crisis of okay, 276 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,920 why is God letting this happen? 277 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,760 Well, of course, I don't want to go down another rabbit track. 278 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,760 I don't think that's how God works, but dealing with all of that, 279 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,160 it's still something, still process, you know, 280 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,160 here two and a half years later after her death. 281 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,800 - I just wrote down, 'cause my whole, 282 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,520 one of my intentions in having you on the show 283 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,160 was talking about caregiving, and then also talking about 284 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,720 grieving as a man in our society, 285 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,040 where like a mood, it's not okay to show emotion, 286 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,320 or you need to be strong for your family, 287 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,760 or all these stories that we tell our men and our boys 288 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,760 when grief enters the room. 289 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,560 And I wrote down, caregiving seems to be a practice 290 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,200 of continual surrender, and then I wrote down as a man. 291 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,200 And to your point earlier about caregiving 292 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,440 is often a situation where you are unable to fix, 293 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,480 or unable to protect, or unable to save the day 294 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,760 for lack of better phrasing. 295 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,760 And you must continually be surrendering to uncertainty, 296 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,000 more news, changing of the roles, 297 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,800 changing of the structure of your relationship, 298 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,000 even changing of how you see yourself. 299 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,480 Can you talk about what it's like, 300 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,040 or what it was like and what it is like, 301 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,040 to be at that intersection of I am a man who is caregiving, 302 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,080 and what it's like kind of from a societal perspective, 303 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,160 but what it's like from a personal perspective too. 304 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,640 - Yeah, yeah. 305 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,600 There's so much that you juggle, 306 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,040 because I was still running my therapy practice. 307 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,760 I was still seeing clients and doing my best 308 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,360 to be present for them, which I feel like I did pretty well, 309 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,640 but I think as much as anything, 310 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,640 what I've learned from all of this is the necessity 311 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,200 of learning how to draw on supports. 312 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,920 And I think that's one of the things that, 313 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,640 to kind of pat myself on the back, 314 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,320 as I allowed myself to do, 315 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,800 I gave myself permission to use supports. 316 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,640 And also, being a therapist is making sure 317 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,600 I'm doing my own therapy. 318 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,680 And so I think that helped that went a long way 319 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,560 in just working with my therapist at the time, 320 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,760 just with all the internal feelings 321 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,520 and all the, you know, that there. 322 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,400 But I think as much as anything, men want to fix, 323 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,720 we want to divide and conquer and get through the problem 324 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:23,840 and get this over with, 325 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,040 and let's move on to the next thing. 326 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,240 And so I think for my own experience, 327 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,840 I felt a lot of that. 328 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,200 I just, you know, there were times 329 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,920 I just want this to be over. 330 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,120 I just, you know, just want, I just want to be done with this. 331 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,880 This is just, I feel like my whole life is on hold. 332 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,400 You know, I'm taking care of my life that's got the mentions. 333 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,760 You know, just all of those things. 334 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,840 You know, it's like I was, 335 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,320 I almost felt like I was being, you know, 336 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,360 forced into something I didn't want to do. 337 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,920 - Yeah, well, yeah, it sounds like a lot like grief. 338 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:00,760 - Yeah, right. 339 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,720 - Forced into a life you didn't want to live. 340 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,560 - Yeah. 341 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:04,400 - Right, right, right. 342 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,240 - Absolutely. 343 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,960 - And so, yeah, and so being, 344 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,560 being getting to a place where you accept it, 345 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,160 you know, reminding myself to do, you know, 346 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,360 as cliche as it sounds, take a day at a time 347 00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:21,160 and just focus on the now, rather than, you know, 348 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,000 and there, when I'm doing therapy with people is that, 349 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000 a lot of times we can get either preoccupied with the past, 350 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,640 I wish I would have, I wish I'd did. 351 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,440 And that kind of takes people into this place of depression 352 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,720 and, you know, self-loathing and all that kind of stuff. 353 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,000 The opposite of that is going to a place of what if, 354 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,640 you know, how could this be anticipating things, 355 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,720 creating a lot of anxiety for ourself. 356 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,000 And neither one of those places we have control of. 357 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,440 All we have control of is the present. 358 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,400 And so, really learning how to, 359 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,320 instead of just reacting to things, 360 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,680 learning how to respond to things 361 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,760 and reminding myself of that. 362 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,960 Now, it got ugly. 363 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,440 I'll tell you, I know all the book stuff, 364 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,600 but I lost my temper, I got frustrated. 365 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,360 You know, you know, there was a lot of anger there, 366 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,440 a lot of resentment, all of those kinds of things 367 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,600 that again are, I think, a normal part of anticipatory grief, 368 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,240 especially, and just, you know, the anxiety around that, 369 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,120 how, what's my life going to be like? 370 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,080 Am I going to be alone forever? 371 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,200 But I'm the same time, just to position that to, 372 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,560 okay, I'm ready to start a new life. 373 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,480 I'm ready to move on from this kind of thing, 374 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,600 which part of the anticipatory grieving process 375 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,280 kind of gets you to that point. 376 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:58,280 And fast forward to when she did die, it was, in many ways, 377 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,640 not a traumatic in the sense that we had hospice involved, 378 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,960 but, you know, people that have been around people 379 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,120 that are dying, they can get to a point where they're doing 380 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,320 what is referred to as agonial breathing, where they can, 381 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,160 - Oh, sure. 382 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,240 - Yeah, and so that's when it's important 383 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,400 to have a hospice involved and being able to take advantage 384 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,000 of the medications to kind of keep their body well. 385 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,240 I was afraid of over-medicating in her, 386 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,160 and I didn't give her enough. 387 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,040 And so she was struggling to breathe, 388 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,520 and that was just traumatic. 389 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,840 And so that's something I still work through, 390 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,440 I'm still working through, it was just that, 391 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,800 the whole traumatic part of that. 392 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,040 It's not the same kind of trauma as like the big T trauma, 393 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,040 but it's still, you know, traumatic to watch that happen. 394 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,680 And then, you know, just seeing her in a way kind of 395 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:53,920 felt like she was suffering, 396 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,760 even though hospice reassured me that she wasn't, 397 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,520 but, yeah, all the little pieces of all of it, 398 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:07,000 it will take me a lifetime to process all of that. 399 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,840 Grief is not something you get over, okay? 400 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,000 Person dies, you grieve, and then you move on. 401 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,760 Grief is something you move through, 402 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,840 and it's for the rest of your life. 403 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,880 And so being able to accept that, 404 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,320 and just allowing yourself to have those moments 405 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,680 where you just fall apart, and ride the wave, 406 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,680 as I like to say, and, yeah, then you make it through it. 407 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,040 - Yeah, and we talk a lot in my online course 408 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,920 in community called Life After a Loss Academy 409 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,840 about grief as a lifetime companion, 410 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,480 and not as an obstacle or a boulder or a dictator, 411 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,720 or something that's, you know, ruining your life first, 412 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,960 and then you see a reason or that you need to get over. 413 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,440 It's something that moves into the house and never leaves. 414 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,160 - You're lying. - And it can look different 415 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,440 across time, and you engage with it differently over time, 416 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,640 and with different losses and more experience, 417 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,200 and different tools, and different stages of your life, 418 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,760 but it never really goes away. 419 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,000 And so I see that echoed in your experience. 420 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,200 Something that keeps coming to me as you're speaking 421 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,040 about being a counselor, being in therapy, 422 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,840 even having been a funeral director, 423 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,120 and you're like, even then, like this was still hard. 424 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,760 And I didn't expect to go here today, 425 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,880 but there's an assumption that people in the grief space, 426 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,480 or who talk about grief regularly, 427 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,640 are good at grief, I'm putting air quotes around this, 428 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:33,880 but I often tell them it's like, 429 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:34,960 it's not that we're good at grief, 430 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,880 or that we're better at grief, we just know more. 431 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,760 We just have tools, we just have language for it. 432 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,240 It doesn't make us suffer less. 433 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,400 So can you say more, not just about being a man, 434 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,960 and not just being about a caregiving spouse, 435 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,920 but can you say more about grieving as a grief professional 436 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,320 in terms of did people think you needed support, 437 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,080 and offer support, or did people think you knew everything, 438 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,480 and just left you to your own devices? 439 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,120 Like what was the perception of like, 440 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,000 oh, will you do this for your job? 441 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,560 So this must be on some level, easier for you, 442 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,160 I think is a cultural assumption we have 443 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,560 about people who are professionals 444 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,400 who are also grieving at the same time. 445 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,640 Well, I think it's as I mentioned, drawing on support, 446 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,280 and that doesn't mean everybody's supporting. 447 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,400 You know, you have your inner circle of friends 448 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,840 and family that you can talk to about it. 449 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,800 The greatest thing anybody can do 450 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,920 in helping somebody with grief is just to listen. 451 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,520 I like to say God gave us two years in one mouth for a reason, 452 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,120 for a reason, or our job is just to listen 453 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:40,400 and to hear and acknowledge. 454 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,720 And so I had, fortunately, I had those people in my life. 455 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,840 And being an expert, as you mentioned, 456 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,960 doesn't take the pain away, 457 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,880 and it's not that it diminishes the pain, 458 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,840 but I think what it does do, as you mentioned, 459 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,400 is give me a language, 460 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,880 and also help me to be mindful, okay, 461 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,240 this is what's happening to me right now. 462 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,240 Grief lives under the surface, 463 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,040 and it always lives under the surface. 464 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:13,040 A good example of this, I went to a music festival this past week 465 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,440 in Moral Fest, and in Western North Carolina, 466 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,640 and Wilkes, Wilkes Burn, North Carolina, 467 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,560 and one of my favorite groups that I got to hear 468 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,560 was called the Kruger Brothers. 469 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,920 And they have a song called Carolina in the Fall. 470 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,920 And that song always reminds me of my wife, 471 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,960 and it always brings back all kinds of memories for me. 472 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,400 Of living and carrying North Carolina, 473 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,400 and just the fall time, which is my favorite time of year. 474 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,600 And every time I have heard them sing that live, 475 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,280 I just start weeping. 476 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,600 And it's just, one of those things that just moves me, 477 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,120 and it's kind of like, oh, this is great. 478 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,520 And I think that's something that's, 479 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,160 I think important to really learn how to do, 480 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,440 is when those waves of grief come, 481 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,440 is allowing them to come, 482 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,440 and recognizing that this is just like a release. 483 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:23,400 And it's just like after that, it's kind of like, 484 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600 oh, wow, I didn't realize I needed that so much. 485 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,480 - How do you, I love this example, 486 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,680 because I just went to a concert yesterday here in Chicago 487 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,640 about one of my favorite composers for film, 488 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,400 doing some of his favorite, 489 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,160 some of his favorite scores, 490 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,240 and my best friend who died in 2022 from COVID, 491 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,040 they played at the concert, the score of one of her favorite 492 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,800 movies that we watched together. 493 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,640 And I didn't expect them to play the whole thing, 494 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,080 and the melody that they did was about 10, 15 minutes long, 495 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,520 it was a symphony, they did everything. 496 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,880 And as each song came, I forgot what it sounded like 497 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,080 in my memory, I kept trying to bring it to the front, 498 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,120 and it wouldn't come. 499 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,040 And then as soon as the first few notes started playing, 500 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,880 I was like, I see the whole scene, I see the whole movie, 501 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,520 I see us paint our nails on Sunday afternoon, 502 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,920 watching this movie together, and I was weeping 503 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,920 in the nose bleed section of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. 504 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,200 And I love this permission to, 505 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,760 that you give yourself to cry, to show motion, 506 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,080 and to ride the grief wave, 507 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,680 and to let the release come out. 508 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,040 And I wonder for people that you're working 509 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,240 with a therapeutic practice, 510 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,920 how do you teach someone to do that? 511 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,120 Because I think, for me, I know it's something 512 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,800 that has come with practice and continued exposure 513 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,480 to the world, like the world will show you, 514 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,320 stimuli that make you cry. 515 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,120 Some people I think have the gift of being able 516 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,280 to stuff it down, and choose, 517 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:50,880 am I gonna lean into the tears now or not? 518 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,840 And other people are just like, it's here, so I'm crying. 519 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,920 But I wonder how in your practice, 520 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,240 and how even you've taught yourself, 521 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,120 you've managed to teach others how to give themselves 522 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:03,920 permission to grieve in a way, 523 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,400 whether through tears or through something else, 524 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,920 crying's not for everybody. 525 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,480 But how do you teach people, 526 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,320 and how have you taught yourself 527 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,840 to give yourself permission to grieve, 528 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,120 or is that something you always knew how to do? 529 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,960 - Fortunately, I grew up in a family 530 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,200 where my dad was a pastor, and so that was something, 531 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,240 you know, people's funerals and that kind of thing. 532 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,840 And of course, you know, working in the funeral business 533 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,040 for the years that I did, you know, 534 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,720 was around that all the time. 535 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,640 And so in many ways, maybe I'm in the unique privilege 536 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,240 of just seeing grieving as being normal, you know, 537 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,600 and it's something that I became accustomed to. 538 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,280 And I think, you know, that's, I think that's been part of it. 539 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,560 I think the other part of it is just in my own life's experience, 540 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,960 is when I'm allowed myself to do that, 541 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,400 it's like it, I wouldn't say it comes into a relief, 542 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,400 but it's a release in a way, 543 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,400 because I think we stuff, we learn how to bury our emotions. 544 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,120 And I think, as I mentioned before, 545 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:16,920 grief lives under the surface. 546 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,920 And I think a lot of times it will poke its head out, 547 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,400 and it'll do it by surprise. 548 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,400 And here's a good example of this. 549 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,960 I can't tell you how many times 550 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,520 when I was working in the funeral business, 551 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,680 people would come to a funeral, 552 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,160 and it might be in a coinence or something like that, 553 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,720 and they would find themselves 554 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,120 during the funeral just uncontrollably sobbing, you know. 555 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:45,600 At a funeral of somebody they barely knew, 556 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,600 or somebody they had just a peripheral connection to, 557 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,480 and invariably they would, you know, apologize, 558 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,440 and they'd say, I don't know why this is happening. 559 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,040 I don't really know them, and I'd usually say, 560 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,720 okay, who have you lost in your life 561 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,000 that you haven't let yourself grief already, 562 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,400 or haven't given yourself permission to grieve? 563 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,200 And so it's like when the stress of life, 564 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,880 I like the image of, you know, if you take out T-catel, 565 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,320 and you put it on the stove and plug it up 566 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,560 and turn the heat up, guess what, it's gonna explode. 567 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,120 But if you allow yourself to take the stopper out, 568 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:30,320 and just allow the steam to come off, 569 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,920 and the pressure to come off, 570 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:37,120 that's maybe a healthier way to allow ourselves to grieve. 571 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,560 And there's no perfect way to grieve. 572 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,840 I mean, there's, everybody, as I like to say, 573 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,640 everybody has to grieve in their own way, 574 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,880 in their own time, you find your path, 575 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,960 but I think being able to, again, 576 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,200 give yourself permission to find those people in your life, 577 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,640 that will just listen, and that won't try to fix it for you, 578 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,120 or say all the stupid stuff that people say 579 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,080 when people are grieving, 580 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,560 to try to justify it, or give it some kind of meaning, 581 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,480 or whatever, sometimes grief is just meaning us. 582 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,520 I mean, there's just no meaning to it at all. 583 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,320 It just hurts, and it sucks, and it's, that's a bastard. 584 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,200 I mean, it really is, and just being able to accept that, 585 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,520 that you're gonna move through it, 586 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,960 and that you're not alone. 587 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,520 - Yeah, I wanna get into that for sure. 588 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,920 The stupid things that people say, 589 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,240 kind of lit this up in my brain, 590 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,480 but also something you said earlier about, 591 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,880 let me see, I can form a succinct question around this, 592 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,320 but I know that you have a Christian faith, 593 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,520 and one of the questions that you were asking 594 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,240 during your wife's diagnosis, 595 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,760 and your caregiving experience for her, 596 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,560 is like, why this, why me? 597 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,080 And one of the stupid things that people say 598 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,480 is God never gives you more than you can handle, 599 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,240 which I think is a bunch of BS. 600 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,160 I think he gives you more than you can handle, and then some. 601 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,480 But I also don't think that grief or loss 602 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,920 is some sort of divine testing, 603 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,560 or punishment, or things like that, but I wonder, 604 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,800 for people who are listening who have faith, 605 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,640 or have lost faith, or for whom faith 606 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,480 is a part of their grief experience, 607 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,280 how has your faith and relationship to God changed? 608 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,960 With everything that you have learned, 609 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,840 and know about grief? 610 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,160 - I think for me, personally, 611 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,080 and this is part of my own theology and faith is, 612 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,480 is that I don't think God is like this puppet master 613 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,800 up there pulling the strings to orchestrate what happens 614 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,600 in the world, to teach people lessons, 615 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,360 to do all these things behind the scenes, so to speak. 616 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,840 I just don't think God operates that way, 617 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,680 but I do think that God understands, 618 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,680 I think what has held me in it is the sense of not being alone, 619 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:07,160 and that I'm understood, and that I'm validated in some way. 620 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:13,200 And as I like to say, just like grief, 621 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,120 using this as Christian vernacular, 622 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,800 the Holy Spirit will catch you by surprise, 623 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,360 and that you have this, 624 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,680 this welling up of emotion within yourself, 625 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,160 I can't prove to anybody the existence of God, 626 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,800 or prove that that comes from God, 627 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,960 or whatever, that's just the language I've assigned to it, 628 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,760 but that brings meaning to me and brings comfort. 629 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,760 And so I think whatever path people are on 630 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,800 with their religion, I think, 631 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,600 first of all, God is big enough to handle our questions of doubt, 632 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,200 and I think God prefers doubters personally. 633 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,800 (laughing) 634 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,040 - I love that. 635 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:04,680 - I think for me to have a certainty about it 636 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,320 is missing the point, and so there's a lot of uncertainty. 637 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,360 God is in the midst of the uncertainty and the unknowing, 638 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,440 and I don't think that God does anything 639 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,680 out of some grand scheme or plan, 640 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,600 and I know there'll be probably a lot of people 641 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,080 that don't agree with me on that, 642 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,080 but I think we do more harm when we try to minimize 643 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,680 the pain that people have to God. 644 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,680 That just sets us up for thinking of God as this dictator 645 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:45,240 in space that controls what we do here on life. 646 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,080 No, God gave us a free will, and so we deal with that. 647 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:56,200 - Yeah, I, long time listeners of my work will know 648 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,040 that when my mom died, my experience of God 649 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,960 or my belief of who God was also died, 650 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,560 of like if you're good enough, if things will happen, 651 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,440 if you pray hard enough, good things will happen, 652 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,000 and if you're bad enough, bad things will happen, 653 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,720 kind of the rewarder and the punisher of God. 654 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,160 And so I love this notion of like God 655 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,040 is in the uncertainty, God is in the unknown, 656 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,160 and you know what else is in those places is grief. 657 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,600 And I, this is entirely selfish, 658 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,600 but I resonate so much more with a God who gets grief 659 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,600 than a God who creates loss as a form of punishment, 660 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:38,840 or divine judgment of things that we were doing. 661 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,400 I would much rather be held in or believe in a world 662 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,200 where God gets what it's like to suffer, 663 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,600 and lives in those spaces also. 664 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,200 I did not think we would be here today, but I absolutely love that. 665 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,200 (laughing) 666 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,200 - I love it. 667 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,040 - Yeah. 668 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,640 - I wonder, you haven't shared your wife's name with us, 669 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,720 so I'd love to know kind of as you wrap up, 670 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,320 some of your favorite things about her, 671 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,120 and ways that you continue to remember her, 672 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,600 carry her forward beside that song, 673 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,280 Caroline in the fall, 674 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,880 other ways that she shows up for you still today, 675 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,120 as a symbol of grief being nothing 676 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,040 that comes along with us right? 677 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,480 - And they're so kind to ask, 678 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,680 and I think that's an important thing, 679 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,200 is to be able to name the people, 680 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,720 and ask people, what was their name? 681 00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:31,720 Tell me about her, him, or whatever. 682 00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:33,800 Her name, she had a unique name. 683 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,520 Her proper name was Mary, 684 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,320 but ever since she was little, 685 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,520 she was referred to as sister. 686 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,720 And so everybody knew her as sister. 687 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:45,440 And so that's what I called her, 688 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,760 all of her friends called her that, 689 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,640 and somebody asked me one time, 690 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,560 "Well, who is this sister brewer?" 691 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,000 And somebody made a joke, 692 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,480 "Well, she's a nun that makes beer in the church." 693 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,480 You know, kind of that. 694 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,400 (laughing) 695 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,960 So, but yeah, that was her name, 696 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,480 and before she got sick, 697 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,800 she was a very pergarious, outgoing, fun-loving person. 698 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,760 She was a lot of fun to be around. 699 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,240 Everybody that knew her 700 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,680 or was close to her just loved being around her. 701 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,840 And so it was sad to see that fade away 702 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,440 and for her to change in that way, 703 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,920 and really in many ways become really kind of bitter 704 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:28,840 towards the end, 705 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,360 but a lot of it was due to her own confusion 706 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,000 about what was going on around her with a dementia. 707 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,320 And she had gone through a lot of loss. 708 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,320 She had lost her brother to suicide when she was in college. 709 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,920 Her dad died shortly after we got married. 710 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,720 And then when her mom died, 711 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,400 she found her dead in her mom's kitchen. 712 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,040 She was taking care of her mom. 713 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,200 And so I know that she went through a lot of her 714 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,080 and pain herself. 715 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:06,080 And so that was her, you know. 716 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,200 It seems like she was a person who knew a great amount 717 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,200 of loss herself. 718 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,640 And so you were grieving and caregiving 719 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,200 for someone who is grieving 720 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,920 and potentially caregiving for herself 721 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,240 as a grieving person as well. 722 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,240 Right. 723 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:22,080 Right. 724 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,800 I know we talked about this. 725 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,720 I don't know when each of our podcasts are gonna air, 726 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:27,600 but grief growers, you can go hear me on practice 727 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,680 if they are P probably by the time this airs. 728 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:30,520 Yeah. 729 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,360 But we talked about in many seasons of our life, 730 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,400 we are griefers and supporters all at the same time. 731 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,080 And sometimes we are supporters of ourselves 732 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,920 and we are griefers ourselves. 733 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,040 And so it sounds like you two were both sort of, 734 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,160 in that cyclical nature, 735 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,920 sometimes we're griefers and supporters to each other, 736 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,800 but sometimes we are griefers and supporters of ourselves 737 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,240 as we are grieving and supporting each other. 738 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:54,080 Yeah. 739 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,360 I wonder what are some other ways 740 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,280 that you carry her forward today, 741 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,360 or maybe you notice or see her out in the world? 742 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,800 Like how does your relationship continue? 743 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,400 Yeah, I think as much as anything through my daughter 744 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,480 because we continue to talk about her and say, 745 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,040 oh, I did a sister thing today, 746 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,480 or I'll tell my daughter all the time 747 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,040 when I see her do something, I'll say, 748 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,880 you're just your mom. 749 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,880 What's been great is that having an adult daughter 750 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,240 and being able to have that life together 751 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:35,560 afterwards. 752 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,440 Sister is rolling in her grave because we did this, 753 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,840 but my daughter and I went and got the same tattoo together. 754 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,680 We'll see. 755 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:43,520 Yeah, let's see. 756 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,720 Where is it there? 757 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:45,920 Let's see, let me turn my hand. 758 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,920 So we've got a tattoo of a great blue heron, 759 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,600 which to her has a lot of camp significance in that, 760 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,200 whenever they would see a great blue heron fly 761 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,200 over the water at camp, 762 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,480 they would, the kids would say, 763 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,720 that's the Holy Spirit coming to visit us. 764 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:08,840 And so that's what it has become to represent for us. 765 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,880 And every time we see a great blue heron, 766 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,720 we text each other and say, I just saw a heron. 767 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:19,200 And what it has come to mean for us is that 768 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,200 a great blue heron will show up when we need it most. 769 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,000 And so when we feel, you know, 770 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,760 it might be going through a hard time 771 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,120 or a rough day or whatever, a blue heron will show up. 772 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:35,120 And so, yeah, and so, yeah, that was something we did. 773 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:41,000 Not necessarily to honor my wife and her mom, 774 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,760 but to really to honor ourselves 775 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,720 and what we've been through with her as much as I knew. 776 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,760 Yeah, that's a beautiful way to phrase that is 777 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400 in the same way that funerals are for the living. 778 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,480 A lot of people like to say, 779 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,720 I'm like tattoos are for the living too. 780 00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,960 Or memorials or rituals or anything 781 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,560 that you do to carry your grief forward. 782 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,120 Like, that's for you. 783 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,880 It can be in remembrance of someone or something 784 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,000 or a relationship that was lost, 785 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,480 but can also and mostly pardon me, 786 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,480 but should be for how you need to continue living 787 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,000 in a world where they are no longer here. 788 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,280 And so whatever ritual you invent, whatever tattoo you get, 789 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,320 I also have a grief tattoo of a few of them, 790 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,680 whatever memorials you do, whatever actions you take, 791 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,440 I, this is a whole other conversation, 792 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,240 but I don't like when people say they wouldn't want you to 793 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:34,600 or they would want you to. 794 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,360 I'm like, no, no, you do have to live your life for yourself 795 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,640 and do your grief memorials for yourself. 796 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,600 And always, if it resonates with you with the intention 797 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,680 or with the inspiration of their presence behind it, 798 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:49,520 I love that. 799 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,360 I love the memorial tattoos. 800 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,320 And the future we'll do a whole opposite 801 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,680 on the memorial tattoos and be so, so fun. 802 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,840 - Gordon, as we sign off for the day, 803 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,840 I wonder from your perspective as a therapist, 804 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,080 as a grieving spouse, as a caregiver, 805 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,440 a lot of people listening are just in the uncertainty 806 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,440 right now, in the unknown of grief. 807 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,000 What is one message or sign off 808 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,440 that you could offer people who feel right now, 809 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,040 like I'm in the middle of something 810 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,200 that I don't even fully know or understand 811 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,720 and I can't see a way out there in that place in grief. 812 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:26,520 - I feel like you could uniquely speak to that. 813 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,320 - First of all, this sounds just kind of dismissive. 814 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,200 You just got to accept it. 815 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,320 But there is something about acceptance of, 816 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,840 okay, this is where I am right now, 817 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,080 but also reminding yourself that this is a season 818 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,960 and you will have many seasons of life 819 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,720 and that we will move, you will move through this. 820 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:54,560 And again, to know that you're not alone in this. 821 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,080 I mean, even for people listening to this podcast, 822 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,240 they probably are getting a sense of, 823 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,840 "Oh, I'm not the only one." 824 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,640 And so it's just really important to reach out 825 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,360 to those that you know can be of support to you. 826 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,160 There's no perfect way to grieve. 827 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:18,160 It's messy, it's sad, it's terrible, 828 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,760 but at the same time, grieving can be liberating 829 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,480 to some degree and that there's a release to it 830 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,360 that you can allow it to happen. 831 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,000 And it's again, something you move through. 832 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,080 And I think the more you can educate yourself on 833 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,920 just what it, like listening to this podcast, 834 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,120 is educating yourself on what it means to grieve 835 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,320 or what it's like to grieve. 836 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,920 And I think having a language for it 837 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,840 is an important piece as well. 838 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,000 One of the other things too is, 839 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,400 which I have, particularly through my wife's illness 840 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,800 and I started journaling and having that as an outlet. 841 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,120 And nobody has, nobody reads my journals, it's just for me, 842 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,160 but it's something that I do every morning to just say, 843 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,200 "Okay, this is what I'm experiencing right now." 844 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,440 And just having a way to take what you're experiencing 845 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,360 internally and put it out in front of you. 846 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,040 And I think by doing that, to some degree, 847 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,760 you can get a different perspective on it 848 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,880 by allowing yourself to do that. 849 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,320 Alan, Dr. Alan Wolfelt, one of my favorite quotes of his, 850 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,600 is he says, "Greef shared equals grief diminished." 851 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,880 And so I think there's a lot of truth to that. 852 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,240 And being able to find those people 853 00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:45,440 that you can share your grief with, 854 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,440 not expecting them to fix it or take the pain away, 855 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:57,440 but you, I think that's the way you make it through all of this. 856 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,880 Yeah, that's a beautiful thing to leave on. 857 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,400 And yes, grief growers, anything that helps you feel seen 858 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:04,920 or less alone in your grief. 859 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,280 If you don't have the energy, the time, capacity, space 860 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,160 to bring your grief to another person right now in this season, 861 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,120 we talk about those prepositional phrases right now, 862 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,080 even listening to other people's stories of grief 863 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,840 and recognizing, like, oh, there are others in this universe. 864 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,000 There are others in my orbit who also know what it is to grieve 865 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,080 and know what this means can be supremely helpful. 866 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,800 Gordon, thank you so much for coming on "Greef Grower" today 867 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,520 and for speaking with us and sharing your grief with us. 868 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,960 Yes, thank you so much. 869 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,200 This has been a great experience. 870 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:44,840 That's all for this episode of "Greef Grower." 871 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,400 Thank you so very much for joining me and Gordon today. 872 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,360 If you're looking for grief support beyond this show, 873 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,440 you can find free workshops, blog articles, and my new, 874 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,520 what's your grief supporter's strength quiz 875 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,320 at shallpeforsitia.com/links. 876 00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,760 And if you'd like to get support for me 877 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,840 for your unique laws experience, join us in life 878 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,360 after-loss academy, my online course in community. 879 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,160 As a student, I'll walk you through my five step grief framework 880 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,920 for rebuilding after-loss, and you can get live coaching 881 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,280 for me every single week to answer your questions. 882 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,520 Replays are always available if you can to 10 live. 883 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,520 It's just $33 a month to join or $22 a month 884 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,520 if you're a marginalized or financially stressed griver, 885 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,760 and you can cancel your membership at any time. 886 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,200 You can find a link to Gordon's work 887 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,480 and his podcast, "The Practice of Therapy" 888 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,120 in the show notes for this episode. 889 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,600 If this podcast felt validating, comforting, 890 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,880 educational, or otherwise helpful to you, 891 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,480 please subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts 892 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,800 or Spotify. 893 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,720 Grief growers hosted by me shall be for-loss, 894 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:47,640 with theme music composed by Addy Goldstein. 895 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,320 Until next time, grief growers, I say you, 896 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,720 I am so proud of you and the work that you're doing 897 00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:55,160 in the world, and I love you. 898 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,000 Because even through grief, we are growing. 899 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,000 [Music]