1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,000 [MUSIC] 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:14,480 Welcome to the Executive Connect Podcast, a show for the new generation of leaders. 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,760 Join Melissa R. Skag as she speaks to a wide variety of guests that bring new insights into 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,760 leadership, prosperity, and personal growth. 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,960 While now it has all the answers, by building a community of open-minded and 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:33,560 gauge leaders, we hope to give you the tools you need to help you find your own path to success. 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,080 [MUSIC] 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,400 Welcome to the Executive Connect Podcast. 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:48,400 I'm so excited to have my friend, Laurie Canapa here today to talk about jobs, 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,320 the job industry, the market. 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,040 Laurie, tell us a little bit about what you do. 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,680 >> Great, it's so great to be, it's so great. 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,520 When you get to connect with someone on a business level, on a personal level, 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,640 and that's Melissa for me, for sure. 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,640 My name is Laurie Canapa, I'm based here in Austin, Texas. 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:11,000 Started my career in public accounting and then morphed into a controller role in industry, 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,440 and then stepped in the world into the world of executive search almost 18 years ago. 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,240 I specialize in executive search that goes all the way through the C-level, 19 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,200 specifically my niche is in accounting and finance. 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,160 Stephen Douglas, who I work for, is a 40 year old brand. 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,280 They started Fort Lauderdale, Florida. 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,280 I was their flagship employee two years ago, a little over two years ago, 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,560 that they hired in Austin to expand their presence in Texas. 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,200 In that time, we now cover Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston, 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,920 and we've actually worked our way up to be in the top five for 26 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,200 both executive, retain search and for contingency search in this market. 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,360 So we're not function specific or I mean, we're function specific, we're not industry specific. 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,320 So we cover all genres and we also have a national presence. 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,720 We cover over 25 different markets and even on accounting and finance. 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:07,040 We also work in other verticals as well as information technology, supply chain, 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:13,600 human resources, legal, and then we also have an interim resources group as well. 32 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,360 >> Great, thank you for that Laurie. 33 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,120 I'm excited to have you here today to talk about recruiting. 34 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,800 So from your perspective, what market trends have you observed that are 35 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,840 significantly impacting recruiting of executives today? 36 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,640 >> I'd say the biggest thing in the ongoing conversation is flexibility, right? 37 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:38,240 So flexibility, I think in this world, 38 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,000 are we talking about remote jobs, we're talking about hybrid, 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:50,000 we're talking about onsite and which level of a role is embracing with which side? 40 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,880 I would say two years ago, if you dial back our remote jobs, 41 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,880 the dynamic of those jobs has drastically changed. 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,480 If you pulled up our sheet that said 100% remote jobs, there were a lot of sea level leadership jobs. 43 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,400 That has changed and that was really out of necessity, right? 44 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,600 So that has now changed, I think just because we no longer have that pandemic attached to it as well. 45 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,720 But I also think that companies have quickly realized for the most part that there is something to say for 46 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:21,000 some type of face time and creating cohesive culture, some type of camaraderie, 47 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,760 everybody kind of being on the same page, collectively in the Austin area or in Central Texas, 48 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,960 I'd say everybody is embracing the hybrid. 49 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,040 There are some that are going on side every day, but I'd say hybrid 3, 2, or 4, 1. 50 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,160 I always advise companies that are kind of resistant to the hybrid. 51 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,280 I always look at flexibilities earned, like babysit them, try one day, 52 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,360 see how that works for everybody, right? 53 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,000 But the dynamic of those sea level roles, like I said, is changed. 54 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,720 If you look at our remote roles now, there are more individual contributor roles, 55 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,840 there are more plug-and-play roles like technical, SEC reporting, anything related to tax. 56 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,480 So I think if anything, I think candidates have to catch up a little bit 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,880 on understanding that you can't just have that if you want to leadership, you have to choose. 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,120 So I want to leadership position and be highly compensated or compensated 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,480 what I think is fair for my skill set, or is being 100% remote more important to me. 60 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,600 Because there's going to be a trade-off, there just is. 61 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,800 And I'd say like set two years ago, that was totally different. 62 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,280 And if anything, I think employers are a little bit of head of kind of making that pivot. 63 00:04:21,280 --> 00:04:24,560 And I think candidates are a little bit behind on that when we talk to candidates. 64 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,160 And I tell them, it's fine if you want to be 100% remote, 65 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,000 but are you going to have that leadership sea level, high growth, 66 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,720 opportunity of an impact position? 67 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:34,840 Not so much. 68 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:37,400 >> Yeah, I agree. 69 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,800 I think I'm wondering, like are there specific industries that are in, 70 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,600 like is there a sector that has a heightened demand for top executives right now that you're recruiting for? 71 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,360 >> I mean, I think it's, so if you can style it back to 2008, right? 72 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,320 Where we cut across the board, like nobody was hiring, there was no PPP loan bailout, right? 73 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,080 So companies were like trying to stay more cash-centric. 74 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,080 So they were cutting from the top up and it wasn't industry-specific, it was across the board. 75 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,480 If you look now, it's definitely like I said, it depends on the industry, right? 76 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,200 And there's going to be certain industries in 2024, just like 2023, 77 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,320 that are going to be more married to interest rates, economy. 78 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,880 So I think it really just depends on the industry and how that's flourishing. 79 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,760 I'd say retail, banking, especially those consumer more facing positions tend to, 80 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,000 it's an emotional role of coast depending on the market's going. 81 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,760 Technology, it just depends on the vertical you're in. 82 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,360 I mean, I have one technology company here specifically. 83 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,160 They've got a multibillion dollar evaluation and 65% profit margins. 84 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,600 And then I have another one that's drastically struggling. 85 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,640 So I wish there was more of a black market market answer except that. 86 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,040 But I mean, I would say if I look historically over the CFOs and CFOs 87 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,160 I've placed over the last six months, they're everything from consumer products to, 88 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,880 you know, it depends on where the position sits as well, 89 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,720 like which companies are sitting in the cloud, which is technology driven. 90 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,400 We just play, you know, we work in banking and financial institutions. 91 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,160 We work in startup bank here in Austin. 92 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,160 So I'd say it's a little bit over the map. 93 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,160 But again, me being in the central Texas market might be a little bit different 94 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,160 than some other is the country. 95 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,320 I'd say from an economic perspective, my office out of all of our 25 different 96 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,320 off, 25 different locations has been by far the busiest, I would say. 97 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,400 And I don't think it's because I'm so awesome. 98 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,640 I mean, my team's awesome, but I mean, but I mean, I'm just saying, but, 99 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,320 but I am saying, but I think it's because we are lucky to be in Texas. 100 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,360 There's more companies coming here than leaving here. 101 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,480 I think that we create a lot of, you know, I think not just because companies know it's a, 102 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,480 that's for a lot of reasons. 103 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,440 I think cost of doing business regardless of all the things we hear about 104 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:41,440 being more expensive. 105 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,840 I mean, at the end of the day, we have no income tax global companies like this location, 106 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:48,200 just purely because of our time zone and that silly, but really it is. 107 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,720 Because think about if you have a pack responsibilities and you've got people on the 108 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,920 East and West coast, well, if you have someone right in the middle, that way it's not, 109 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,120 you know, it's kind of somewhere in the meeting in between. 110 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,080 So I think, you know, we still have a lot of people more companies 111 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,960 people coming here than leaving here really, I mean, for the most part. 112 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,240 And then from hiring perspective, you know, I was just listening to, 113 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:14,920 I love the editor of LinkedIn, LinkedIn 85% was 85% of people in 2024 are 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,440 passively seeking a new role. 115 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,600 That's up 27% from last year. 116 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:19,240 Yeah. 117 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,360 So when you talk about, and we're not talking about unemployed people, 118 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,920 we're talking about employee people, which makes the market to long answer your short question 119 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,280 incredibly tight. 120 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,080 And I think everyone gets drawn into the, we hear riffs. 121 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:31,720 We hear riffs. 122 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,240 Yes, but look at those companies. 123 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,880 Those are the very large global public-traded companies that from my perspective, 124 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,280 overhired and overpaid post-pandemic. 125 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,000 There's a very, very large company that we all know in the social media space, 126 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,760 multi-multipillion dollar company. 127 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,040 When they came back from pandemic and people didn't want to come back to work, 128 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,200 they were like, kind of almost in panic mode. 129 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:53,640 Oh my gosh, we need people. 130 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,240 So and people don't want to come back. 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,760 So they don't know if we're ready to work yet. 132 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,400 They're still like this PTSD from the pandemic. 133 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,440 So they were hiring and they were paying like 30% of our market. 134 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,040 And that's across the board. 135 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,400 So some of this is really level setting, but no one ever talks about that, right? 136 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,960 It's just, it's the media pulling into the glimendoom, 137 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,680 but it's really, it's a lot of its level setting. 138 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,800 I mean, even just a point of reference here in Austin, in my role. 139 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Senior accountants is a simple example for competitive salary will make somewhere 140 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,240 between 90 to 110. 141 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,200 And that's like a big four CPA, CPA candidate type. 142 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,720 This particular company and some of their competitors, the large global public-traded 143 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,440 company, were paying somewhere between one, thirty, one, thirty five. 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,040 So if you think about it, now they're looking at where they're going into 2024. 145 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,280 Now they have a chance to breathe a little bit and they're looking around, 146 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,160 especially in my role, which are non-revenue generating positions. 147 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:45,560 So looking at that and saying, okay, well, we've got to cut there a little bit and we overhired. 148 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:49,400 Now in the Austin market, it kind of kept us honest because most of our companies here are somewhere 149 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,160 between 50 is around a 50 million or P or VC backed. 150 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,080 So, you know, P's and VC's were like, yeah, that's cute, but we're not paying senior accounts. 151 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,720 You're with 35,000 dollars, right? So kind of kept us honest, which I think also works 152 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,520 to our advantage is why we don't sit. 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,200 I would say if you look at some areas of the country as far as like our unemployment rate and 154 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,440 things like that is pretty low here. 155 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,400 85% is a huge number, I think, for people looking. 156 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,640 I mean, that's going with what the LinkedIn editor said. 157 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,120 I mean, I'm just saying he's supposed to be the market expert. 158 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:21,320 Right. 159 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,360 It's so true. 160 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,360 And I know that was just that was yesterday actually. 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Yeah. 162 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:25,320 Yeah. 163 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:26,120 Wow. 164 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,280 That's a huge number. 165 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:34,840 And when I think of like LinkedIn as well, you know, everything's pretty clear, pretty posted of what the 166 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,400 job is, what the salary is if it's remote or hybrid. 167 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,720 But when you're working with candidates and matching them with compensation 168 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:52,200 for these roles, are there specific negotiation tactics that you you so the employer is not overpaying 169 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,680 and the employee is getting the right pay? 170 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,960 Yeah. I mean, I think always being honest and transparent on the front is always really important. 171 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:00,280 Right. 172 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,280 Like, you know, and you know, when I talk to a candidate and this is more of my perspective, 173 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,440 you know, often I'll ask them, you know, in Texas legally, I can still ask you what you're making. 174 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:08,680 Right. 175 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:10,680 I can ask you, not that may change down the road. 176 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:13,800 There's other states you cannot unless they'd like to volunteer that. 177 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,160 But for me, in order to best help you, I really need to know what your overall compensation 178 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,200 package is just so that, you know, I need to know your basis. 179 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:20,920 What's your bonus? 180 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:21,800 What's its high to? 181 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,080 What's your incentive comp? 182 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,080 You know, pre IPO equity or pre event equity is always hard to evaluate. 183 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,520 I know that, but how much are you how fully are you vested in those kinds of things? 184 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,360 And I think that's just a really good starting point. 185 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,880 I know sometimes people are reluctant to share that because they feel like they're underpaid 186 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:36,680 or those kind of things. 187 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:40,520 But again, in my role, I'm kind of the I'm kind of like your agent, right? 188 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,120 So I'm up to kind of like negotiate that like, hey, you know, here's Melissa. 189 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,600 This is her current compensation because in Texas, you could still have to go to fill that on a job 190 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,240 application. 191 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,360 So why are we like, let's just lay all the cards in the table, right? 192 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,840 And it's, but here, but I know her and I know her industry and she's definitely paid 10% 193 00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,560 before markets. 194 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:03,160 So even though this is her current overall compensation package, this is what her target is. 195 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,360 Candidates often like to give me ranges too. 196 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,960 I always tell them that's really cute, but companies don't pay in ranges. 197 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,880 So I love that you're open to the range, right? 198 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,760 But like, let's talk about what that actually means, right? 199 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,840 So, and then the same is, you know, your bonus, you know, 200 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,840 did your bonus payout historically, you know, but one of the things that we, I talk about, 201 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,960 I just give a seminar to the job seekers network here in town is, you know, when you're talking about 202 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,840 negotiating compensation, you remember, honestly, in the front end, but we want to really stay, 203 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,640 you want them to fall in love with you first, right? 204 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,480 They want you're going to have so much more negotiating power when they are like, 205 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,880 not in like with you, but then when they are in love with you. 206 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,280 Then you've had enough conversations to get them to know you so that you're a little bit of 207 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,520 proven entity. Starting right out of the gate with like, and like saying, hey, this is what I'll take, 208 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,080 or I won't take with like, kind of this ultimatum, ultimatum is just never a good approach. 209 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,960 Anyways, because then you're just going to be, you know, clients at the end of the day, 210 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,840 I want to know you're running to something, not from something, right? 211 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,840 And so at the end, even if you really are running from something, but they want to know that you're 212 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:12,200 looking for a career and not a job, right? And so I think part of it is really knowing when to 213 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,240 really understanding when it's time to have that compensation conversation and not shooting 214 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,480 yourself in the foot either way. Like coming in, you know, you don't want to undervalue your stuff, 215 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,960 you're knowing the opposite yourself, but on the flip side, you don't want your salary in your 216 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,840 compensation to become so overly like that. That's just the focus that they're missing out on 217 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,640 everything else about you. And there's a time and date to do that. I mean, time and date, 218 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,040 a time and date to do that, but you have to be really strategic about when you do that in the process. 219 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:45,560 And often it's not as hard to explain as people think. You know, salaries are tied to revenues, 220 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:50,200 you know, and so, I mean, a theater the day. So for instance, if I talk to someone from Dell who likes 221 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:56,760 the idea of working in a pre-revenue early stage, $10 million fund, you know, funded startup, well, 222 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,560 if you're making $200K, like that's probably not happening, you know, so there has to be a little bit 223 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,680 of a trade-up. I'm not saying that you don't have to make something that's competitive and everybody's 224 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,600 financial situation is different, but you're going to have to know that it's not apples to apples, 225 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,720 right? I mean, everything from a benefits perspective. And I do a lot of that. I mean, 226 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,800 majority of the companies here in town for the most part are not, we only have 50 public iterative 227 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:21,960 companies here. So they say, I love somebody to actually count those, but 50 public iterative companies 228 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:27,160 here in Austin. And so the most part, most companies are not on the, you know, on the, the larger 229 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,720 side of compensation, but I think it's just really understanding. And then asking away, it's amazing 230 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:37,640 to me how often sea level executives that I talk to in my world, it's CFOs, it's C-A-O's, it's 231 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:43,320 because of finance that get into a company and say, you know, I didn't know my, my equity was tied 232 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,720 to that, or I didn't know that my equity was really worth that, or I didn't know it vested annually, 233 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,480 I just assumed it vested quarterly. I think they're afraid to ask the question because they feel like 234 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:57,480 they'll come across like, you know, uneducated or, you know, or not knowing how to, because they're 235 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,920 a numbers person. And especially if you're coming from a company where you've never had that type of 236 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,080 equity because there's so many, you know, I love, in my world, I have wished clients would share their 237 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,480 cap, nobody's sharing their cap table with me, okay? But I'm like, no one, right? You know, because that would 238 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,720 be much easier conversation for me to negotiate. So I think as a recruiter, I also have to know when I step 239 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:19,560 out of the process because clients will share with me enough, but often so there's no miscommunication, 240 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,360 or, you know, miscommunication about the valuation. I usually let sea level executives have that 241 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:30,280 conversation. I'd say I've seen here in Austin sea level, I see the little bit of a mix most recently, 242 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,600 a lot, before there'd been a lot more of like number of options, you know, number shares, and most 243 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,040 recently I've seen a trend more towards percentages. Typically my CFO roles usually are as percentages 244 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:45,960 in anything at the chief accounting officer or CFO level. But again, you've got to know what does 245 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,760 that percentage mean? Like what's the outstanding shares? You know, what's the best thing schedule, 246 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,720 what's the dilution? Like all knowing all those things, and unfortunately, you know, clients often 247 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,040 don't share that much with me. They share with me enough, like, you know, they call it meaningful equity, 248 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,520 which, which, you know, meaningful equity does, and when I tell click-in in its meaning of the 249 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,480 equity, we mean there's an exit or some type of like planned exit, depending upon if it's BCPE 250 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,560 backed, are we doing an IPO? Because, you know, there's companies that I work with here in Austin 251 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,360 to do this for 18 years that have been telling me they pre-IPO for 10 years. So let's talk about how 252 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:26,600 meaningful that equity is. It's not. It feels good, but is not. You know, I think you touched on a 253 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:32,440 really good point. I wanted to circle back on, there's the resume that has the information to get 254 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:38,680 you the interview. And there's the actual interview, which are completely separate things. I know I've 255 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,400 read resumes many times and I've been hiring for many years where it says attention to detail, 256 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:50,120 and there's like, "Grammical heirs all the way through their resume." Or things are wrong, and I think 257 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:57,480 you nailed it. It's, you know, you've got to find it's a DNA fit for you and it's a DNA fit for the 258 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,920 company, and you've got to, they got to fall in love with you. You have better negotiating power 259 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:11,800 when it works both sides. And, you know, I always, I always, when interviewing people, I a lot of times 260 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:18,360 look at the resume, but I don't interview a ton off the resume because it, it gets you the job interview, 261 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,080 but it really would get you the job is your personality and what you're going to do for that company. 262 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Absolutely. And I'm going to, okay, go ahead, boss. Go ahead. I was going to kind of switch gears 263 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,400 a bit and we talked about money and I know you touched on it a little bit at the beginning, who was 264 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:40,120 LinkedIn. You know, personal branding and your professional networks are starting to become 265 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:47,880 huge on LinkedIn. So when you're, you know, you're interviewing for roles, do you look at, you know, 266 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:54,680 really how pivotable, how pivotal is branding professional networks for executive candidates, 267 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,440 looking to stand out and differentiate themselves for a position. 268 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,320 It's huge and, you know, today's LinkedIn, tomorrow might be do something different, right? But 269 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:09,080 LinkedIn is the go to, right? And I would say, you know, hiring managers or my clients are looking for 270 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,520 any reason to rule you out. So don't give them that reason. You know, I know a lot of my hire 271 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,520 managers, whether we start with my preferences to work directly with a hire manager, but often, 272 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,200 sometimes the larger companies, we have to go through, you know, internal, the process, internal 273 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,280 hurting HR. The first thing they're doing is taking this resume and they're going to see if it 274 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,640 matches your LinkedIn. Like, and it says, tell them, you know, you may say, well, you know, I'm not 275 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,560 to social media, I'm LinkedIn, but it tells them a little bit about your, all right, how tech stab is 276 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,600 this person, right? Like, you know, like, I know that maybe they're not spending all day on LinkedIn, 277 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,800 but are they usually they're not on LinkedIn because it's something they're afraid of or don't want 278 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,160 to post or people, they match, they literally want to match to make sure that your resume is identical 279 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:56,280 to what's on LinkedIn. If it's not, it gives, it's back to the attention to detail, like, you know, 280 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,440 how important is, and I think for them, even when they're, if we're talking about C-level execs, 281 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,760 they're not, when they're, when they're hiring you, they're hiring your network too, right? So if 282 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,320 they hire you, Melissa, they're going to say, well, okay, so let's say they're working with me, 283 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,640 they're like, we're paying, we paid a fee for Melissa, but hopefully we don't pay a fee for the next four or 284 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,040 five because she's going to bring people that she knows and that she trusts. So that's perfect too, 285 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,040 and people don't think that far ahead, but really when they're looking, they're looking not only, 286 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,760 and does she, you know, does that person really kind of well known in their own, like, in their own, 287 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,400 are they subject matter expert in respect about their peers in their space? So yes, in LinkedIn, 288 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,320 and don't think they're not looking at your other social media either, like trust me, I tell 289 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,840 you how it is when you're, when you're interviewing, I know you have things hidden, but remember who your 290 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,480 audience is, and remember what's out there, remember what you're coming on and what you don't comment on. 291 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,120 LinkedIn, you know, Facebook, yes, that's a personal, personal vertical, you know, a personal platform, 292 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:55,720 I get that, but be very, very careful in LinkedIn, what you actually like, what you're coming in, 293 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,680 and how you do that in a way. We're not saying, don't be authentic, we're not saying, 294 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:04,440 don't do yourself, but don't give an hiring potential employer a reason to roll you out. 295 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,960 When it comes down to that very close race between three and four candidates, two and three candidates, 296 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:15,000 it's just little, there's looking for little small reasons to say, you know what, I saw Lori 297 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,000 commented on something, and I don't know if that would really fit in here, and Melissa didn't really 298 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,680 do that, so that's going to be, I like both, they can both do the job, well, that's going to be my 299 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,920 deciding factor. I know it sounds so simple, I mean, it's so, it sounds so silly, but it really is. 300 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,600 So really branding and being authentic on there, and, and accommodating on things that you feel like, 301 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,200 you know, they want to see you coming on things relevant to their, you know, to your world and to your 302 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,200 audience. They want to see how up to speed you are, especially if you're in a technology, you know, 303 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,560 technology space, like, like, you are Melissa, like, really making, I mean, I see your post all 304 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,160 the time, right? I mean, you're always up to speed on the newest and latest, and even if you're not 305 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,920 really sure about it, you're like, what do you think, right? Like, so I think they're also, it also 306 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,960 sells a lot of people about your communication, your ability to engage. If you go up there, I mean, 307 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,800 even in my world, even in a county finance bike up there, and I see someone's LinkedIn profile, 308 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:06,200 and there's no photo, and they have like two connections, because there's fake, there are fake 309 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,560 profiles out there, right? There just are, just in like any space. And so that also makes me think, 310 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,640 like, okay, like, you know, again, it just tells people, and how serious are you really about your 311 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,800 career search? But LinkedIn is really, I mean, it's a very, and being part of other groups and 312 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,280 networks, but yeah, it's a, that's a long answer to a short question, but it's really important. 313 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,080 It's really good. I think, um, I agree, like, I've looked at resumes, and I, 314 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,240 the resume said they've been at a company for eight years. I go on their LinkedIn, and they've 315 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,840 had a new job every year for eight years. So it makes you question, are these people honest? Are they 316 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:45,480 transparent? And so I think it does, you're right. It does leave different nuggets of information 317 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:53,240 when you're an interviewing manager. So for, for executives that are looking to stand out for jobs, 318 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,400 is there anything they could be doing on LinkedIn? Like, anything you suggest that they 319 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:05,160 do on LinkedIn? Or maybe second, secondly, anything they could do for their own brand that helps them 320 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:11,080 get jobs? I think sea level execs, it's about being consistent, right? Because there is, you know, 321 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,920 we have the luxury of having this incredible technology team. Yes, I'm going to give a prop to 322 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:21,560 Dave Burleson. Woo-hoo! He does this incredible, he has done a deep dive on algorithms within LinkedIn. 323 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:27,640 So we actually have this incredible profile about posting wind-to-post times the post, 324 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,920 how many more views you're going to get, like all these kind of things because there is a rhyme to 325 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,360 that, right? Like you're going to get more looks, you're going to get more views, and you're always 326 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,240 going to get that if you're consistent, right? I mean, I'd say on average, just as if even if you're 327 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,720 in a job search or you're a hiring manager, you know, to be relevant on LinkedIn, you've got to touch 328 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,560 at least three or four times a week, at least at a bare bare minimum, right? And it's got to be 329 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:53,000 something relevant to your audience, you know, like, in tagging, you know, tagging companies, but branding, 330 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,680 you know, a picture that's, that's, you know, my world conservative, easily accessible, you know, 331 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,120 if you're, if you really want, you know, if you're really out there and you're actively looking, 332 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,320 make it easy for someone to contact you. Don't make me have to go through LinkedIn, 333 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,160 recruiter to find your contact information and go back there, make it pretty easy for me to find 334 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,760 you. So when you click on contact information, whatever you're comfortable with, like, maybe you 335 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,200 don't want to advertise your cell phone number out there, but at least put an email or something 336 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,760 in your contact information so I can easily find you. And then remember, when you're doing searching 337 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,840 through LinkedIn, whatever your title that you're looking for, that's got to be in your head or somewhere, 338 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,680 right? Because that's what, that's what they're pulling up, right? Whether it's, you know, like, 339 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,040 I'm looking for like a SAS CFO, like, you know, if I pull up SAS CFO, the ones that say SAS CFO 340 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,000 are going to come up first or just CFO. So I'd say really, in really spending time, instead of, 341 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,080 you know, a lot of times people will put just like the name of their company, what they're, you know, 342 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,240 their, their title and then nothing about what they're doing. Again, that's where all the search 343 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,280 comes from. So the more that you spend time inputting there and the more key words that are like within 344 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,400 your industry are going to be, you know, more easily, you know, more, I guess, more discoverable. 345 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,880 And then being part of those, those groups as well, but also like I said, some being present and 346 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,080 I'd say, if you're seeing the exact writing original content is huge too, writing something content 347 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,640 and specifics your industry, that really gets a look and posting those in groups, being part of 348 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,520 groups. A lot of people don't think about when you post, you can also tag a group, you probably see 349 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,720 my Melissa. And I think you probably do the same thing. When I post, I use that post, I repost that 350 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,280 thing probably 10 to 12 times, but I just tag different groups. So for me, in, for instance, if I, 351 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,920 if I post a controller job today, I post it on my main feed, but then I go back and I share it 352 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,880 directly to the Texas CPA Group, CPA society. So when you do a post and you do something that's 353 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,480 original content that you think people are interested in, you know, it's working smarter, not 354 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:45,000 harder, take that post and reuse it 10 to 15 times, tagging in those groups that would speak to you. 355 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,240 Not only are people going to get, you know, people you might start networking the people you haven't 356 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,800 before, but it's also a way to really dig up, you know, potential job opportunities to for 357 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,880 recruiters like myself, looking for you. Again, make sure you're staying in groups that are relevant 358 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,720 to yourself. I think the other place that, you know, being consistent and keep your title, 359 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,440 what your title is, I mean, I just been doing this for 18 years, honesty is always the best policy. 360 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,880 Like, don't create 15 different versions of your resume. Again, it's, you know, here specifically, 361 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,880 in Austin, I think in any market, you can over saturate the market with your resume pretty easily, 362 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,040 more than you would think. And if you start, and if you don't think higher managers in CEOs and 363 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:28,440 CFOs and CEOs talk, they do, they talk about, oh, Melissa and I'd be like, oh, I got like three different 364 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,920 versions of Melissa's resume for four different roles at my company. That's a little concerning, 365 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,720 because they're the same person, three different versions, three different roles. I had any, 366 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,400 I've not even talked to this person, but clearly they don't know what they want to do, you know, 367 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,280 and I'm not really looking for that. I'm looking for somebody who knows who they are, knows their brand, 368 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,360 knows what they're looking for, you know, and so being very strategic about that and I think that's 369 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,960 an easier conversation with people who are employed or passive candidates, but I do speak to a lot of 370 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,760 people who are unemployed, but, and I know you have to work, but be more strategic. I always kind of 371 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,760 give them homework. I say in the morning, pick the four or five jobs, companies want to see where 372 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:08,440 you can add value from day one, hands down, whether that's industry, you know, industry relatable, for sure. 373 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,280 Especially if you spend a good period of time in one specific industry, they're that's definitely 374 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:17,560 going to speak to them. So look for the three or four jobs that you want, apply to those, and then, 375 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,120 and then switch that in the afternoon. Take more of a proactive approach. Instead of just blindly 376 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,800 spending resumes, go to the industries of the companies that you want to work for and directly 377 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,760 approach someone. And not in an overbearing way, just saying, hey, you know, I see that you're working 378 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,640 XYZ company. You know, I have 10 to 15 years of experience in this space. I'm not really sure if 379 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,440 you're looking to hire, but I'd love to have it, you know, if anything, we can have a, you know, talk 380 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:46,280 about, you know, talk shop about, you know, about, you know, your particular industry. And you be surprised 381 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,640 how much more of a casual approach that opens up than just, you know, trying to apply for, if you try to 382 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,880 apply for 15, 20 jobs, like I said, especially, I think at any market, but specifically in this market, 383 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,040 people will literally say, you know what, I don't know what's wrong with that person, but they're like, 384 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,760 they're really like, applied like 15 jobs that are at our one company. And so clearly, they don't know 385 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,640 what they want in the resumes are different and, you know, all those kind of things. So I think, I think 386 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,840 staying true to yourself, in true to your brand, but taking a little bit of a different approach in both 387 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,080 ways and simply just applying to postings and kind of reversing that a little bit. I know that that 388 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,600 really resonates, it resonates with me because people do that with me too. They'll reach out to me and say, 389 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,400 hey, I saw that you're with an executive search firm. I don't really know what you have yet. I'm not 390 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,440 planning to posting. I'm just ready to start my search and I'd like to talk to you a little bit about 391 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,400 market or what you're seeing out there. I would say I probably placed 20% of the people I work with, 392 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,720 not because the company has a job order, but because I know that what the company looks for in 393 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,800 candidates from a culture perspective. And I know when someone has industry experience, we're all, 394 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,320 you know, reach out and say, to a higher manager, I've known for 10 years, you know, I don't know if you're 395 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,640 hiring, but I know from working with you before what you're looking for in candidates. And this 396 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,720 person's got 10 years of industry related experience in your space. Is this someone you might be 397 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,360 interested in speaking with? There's a good chance that either they're just interested in the candidate, 398 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,320 which is always a good conversation. Now you have another sealable contact in your market, 399 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,600 which is never a bad day. Or there's a role that they're getting ready to kick off next quarter, 400 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,240 but now they're going to move up that timeline because you already live there. So I think taking a 401 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,520 two strong approach versus waiting for some perfect job posting to pop up, especially in the 402 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,760 sealable world. So I would say most of my, I mean, I just picked up a seal of search this morning. I'm 403 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:28,440 not posting it. It's a retained search, right? Like I don't think people understand like, like, 404 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,520 you know, sealable searches for the most part, you're not going to find those online. Those are 405 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:38,120 going to either be through retained search firm or a confidential search. So, you know, you creating 406 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:42,040 that network is where you really dig those up. You know, if a company thinks they're going to get 407 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,960 their next CEO by posting a CEO job online, like you might want to question working for that company. 408 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,240 So because I know the only reason that I post in this market is so that people can tie me to this brand. 409 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,640 That's not really where we get our candidates for the most part. For the most part, we're really like 410 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,720 target recruiting people, but I think that at the sea level, you've got to do a little legwork 411 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,920 on the front end to create those networks and those connections. I think if you talk to most 412 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,160 sealable execs, that's typically where often the opportunities come from. Yeah, I agree. 413 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Just one thing came to mind. So I know you've been staffing and recruiting for many, many years. 414 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,840 What are the top skills that you, I know that's a bold question because there's hundreds of skills 415 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,640 out there. Like in the world of hiring today, what are the top skills employers are looking for? 416 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,000 Whether it's a C-suite role or a VP role or a director role, what are those top skills 417 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,680 they're looking for in a potential hands of it? Do you mean more, because my world is specific 418 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,640 to accounting and finance, do you mean like specific skill sets or like newer, like things like ESG 419 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:49,640 that are out there? Like ESG is like a big one, right? Even in my world, like being an ESG controller, 420 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,960 which is employer sustainability, I was disturbed by myself, employer sustainability, I mean, 421 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,640 sorry, environmental, social and governance, like that's become, you know, and depending 422 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,080 upon what industry, like we have a company here in town that's going to be looking for an ESG 423 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,000 controller. And obviously that's the accounting and finance role, but it's all tied directly to the 424 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,840 impact that that company specifically is having on the environment. So that's kind of a newer one. 425 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,880 I mean, that's even a newer one for me. Like, yeah, I love this business because you always have to 426 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,120 learn new things. I heard a little inkling of it last year, but because we don't have the larger 427 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,080 publicly-treated companies here in Austin, that's where you're going to particularly find them. 428 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,360 There wasn't a majority of them, but now I've heard about two or three this year. So I say, 429 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,000 that's one area, AI of course, right? I mean, AI is just kind of a way to go. 430 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,560 Skill sets as far as sea level goes. I mean, you know, being tech savvy upon you, I mean, 431 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:44,840 I can speak probably more to my world as far as, you know, being any type of ERP system or ERP platform 432 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:51,800 more than, you know, just a quick book scenario is going to always be good. The go-to here in Austin 433 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,760 is net sweet for sure, but I'm working with a company right now that is going through a conversion 434 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:02,600 to SAP Forehanna. And literally they need someone who's an accountant, but it also is tech savvy in 435 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,800 the implementation of SAP Forehanna. Yeah, if you know anyone, let me know. So, 436 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:13,320 the next point is I have some friends that are currently looking for C and VP roles, and they say, 437 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,600 they sent me some of these jobs descriptions, and they're like, they're looking for unicorns, 438 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:25,480 like, various different unicorns. And so I just funny because I see some of these job descriptions 439 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,400 with friends of mine that are interviewing, and they're like, yeah, you have to like, 440 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:37,880 very specific role, very specific time. But any final thoughts, like maybe top three things that 441 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:46,200 potential candidates in any field can do to enhance their ability to be more either likeable on 442 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,320 social or better with the resume. I guess any closing thoughts. I mean, I think the biggest thing, 443 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,400 and I give this presentation the other day, and it's one they've asked me to do like four or five times, 444 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:01,800 I think the biggest, what I hear when like in my mind, when I submit candidates to a job, I in my 445 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,120 mind test myself to say, I wonder how they're going to rank them, right? And I wonder who looks 446 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:13,000 shoes. And sometimes, you know, I've had a lot of times, I'm kind of on point, but a lot of times, 447 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:18,840 I'd say, yeah, I mean, I'm more often on point, but the time that I'm not, it's because my 448 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,960 candidate didn't prepare or take the time to prepare. Like, it's like anything, and that's the 449 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,680 biggest thing that I hear about companies when they, when they pass on a candidate where I'm like, wow, 450 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,360 you passed on that candidate, I kind of thought that was a ringer, right? And they're like, 451 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,360 the way he didn't, he or she didn't know by the end of the company, they didn't know anything 452 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:42,200 relevant. So I think really truly what the deal breaker is companies will hire anybody's 453 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,200 nine times out of 10 on culture fit passion over technical any day of the week. So make sure, 454 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,640 and you as a candidate, I think your ability to tire self to the mission to the product, to the service 455 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,960 will make your job that always feel like so much of a job. So I think it's a win-win for both, 456 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,120 but do your homework, do your research, don't try to cram the night before. I mean, when I 457 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,960 prep our candidates, you prep our candidates days before, we do a lot of legwork for them because 458 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,360 they're working, so we do a lot of that, but do your due diligence. Know about, you know, if you're not 459 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:15,320 good at an engaging conversation, don't bring 10 questions, bring 15 questions, you know, 460 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,240 know something relevant about the industry, know something, you know, see if you know other people 461 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,480 that work there. If you know you're uncomfortable talking to someone, go look on their link to 462 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,400 them profile, see where they went to school, see where they were raised. You just don't want that 463 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,600 weird awkward silence because again, then you have that lack of engagement in a role where you have 464 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,960 to be cross-functional or especially in sea level roles where that's just inherent, and you have to 465 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,680 be able to work and know your audience or work across the organization and literally be very visible. 466 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,160 You've got to have that two way, like knowing how to knowing your audience, but being able to speak 467 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,000 to it in a way that people understand is really important. And I say, that's probably the biggest 468 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,080 complaint I get from. It's the most, I say, the biggest reason that clients push back on a 469 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,760 candidate that on paper is purely qualified, but literally hasn't taken the time to prep or really, 470 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,640 and you know, things like, don't answer, what is your weakness with a strength? Oh god, like, don't do 471 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:15,240 that. God, like, what is your weakness? Oh, I work a lot. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 472 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,520 don't do that. It was like the biggest thing. Like, everybody has a weakness. I don't care what it is. 473 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,280 Mine's listening. I'm working on it, right? So, you know, for me, like, I'm always thinking about the 474 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,600 next thing I want to say, instead of like trying to make sure I'm being present and being in the moment 475 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,120 with a person, but I'm usually it's usually because I'm really excited about what they're talking about, 476 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,320 which isn't a bad thing, but you've got to be a little bit more self-aware of those things. 477 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,040 Yes, so don't answer, you know, yeah, your, like, your strength, you know, this is, this is, this is, 478 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:43,000 this is, this is, I love that. It's so true though. And I think getting to know people, not just 479 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,240 for the role, but who they are, like, what are their characteristic traits? What are their 480 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:53,400 personality traits? What are they like? Typically, how they engage? You can pull some of that 481 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:59,240 information out outside of just their resume. And yeah, it baffles me, Lori, that people still, 482 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,480 I've interviewed many times where people had no idea what our company did. 483 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,920 I know, I know, I know. And I'm blown away by that. If you want a job or you want anything, whether 484 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,560 it's anything, you would do some research on it. And you're right. As a hiring manager, 485 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,600 the minute that they have no idea about anything that we do or the company, like, they're absolutely 486 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:24,120 not even to the next step because that basic thing that they should be doing. And it really blows me 487 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:29,640 away because I've literally prepared them for it, like, here, like, the night before, like, here's the 488 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,200 company. Here's recent articles. I know they're working, right? So, for coming home, they're working, 489 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,000 I've passed the candidates. And then it's like, the last thing you want to have to do is read books 490 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:42,120 on the outside when you get home, right? So, and the fact that they actually didn't do that, it tells 491 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,440 me a lot about them. They're not really serious about making a change. They're probably a huge counteroffer 492 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,720 risk to stay with their current company for that reason. Like, maybe they're just trying to negotiate 493 00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:53,320 and offer another company to get a better one than where they are. They're not really committed to 494 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,640 the process. So, you've got to be questions whether I'm going to actually work with them going 495 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,760 forward. Also, in the interview process, you have to really emotionally prepare. If you're coming 496 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,560 from a situation that's negative or toxic, you've got to stay PC. And you sometimes, to really 497 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,680 emotionally, you've prepared that. I don't care how great of a camaraderie you feel with somebody 498 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:19,000 that you're hiring, that you just met 30 minutes ago. They're trying to see where, where is Melissa 499 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:24,040 going to be dramatic? Like, you know, where, like, they're trying to get to pull you into that, so don't, 500 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,040 you know, make sure you stay. And they might even try to drill down on that and say, hey, listen, 501 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,200 you checked off the box. I really would love to know why you're looking to leave. Say, you know, 502 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,000 hey, I know it was just time, you know, I've been there for a while. I kind of outgrew my role. You 503 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,000 know, I just, the culture kind of shifted. I just didn't fit there anymore. You know, those kind of 504 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,960 things. But don't all of a sudden be like, hey, you know, just because you feel a good rapport 505 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,800 with a person, they're trying to see you, you know, because that's the last thing they want on 506 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,600 their team is someone who's going to create what they consider, you know, that banter of drama and 507 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,880 everything else, right? So, good. And the other thing I was thinking, they just popped in my head. I've 508 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:06,120 been on interviews where people are like this, or hands are on their head for their body language. And 509 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:15,400 I have another thing like smile, you're not looking for a root canal. Show them your personality. I've had 510 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,080 multiple times like, like, I'm like, really am I that engaging where you're 511 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:31,880 mindful of your body language? It's absolutely to the person that's talking and it's your nervous 512 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:37,880 or you don't understand the question asked, would you mind reading this or what do you mean about 513 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,400 this question? And I think people that are interviewing appreciate that maybe they didn't ask the 514 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:50,600 question right and they want to get your answer. But I'm always baffled when people do like, can you 515 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:56,920 hold on one minute? I got to keep it all. Like I'm like, I'm a fierce. These kinds of things are 516 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:03,720 common sense, but not always common. Yeah, and you're staying staying clear and concise to the point, 517 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:08,680 right? Like, it's best sea level for sure. Sea level, most sea level execs don't care how you got to 518 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,840 the bomb line. They just want to know the bomb line is, right? And so, and if they want you to expand, 519 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,960 they'll ask you to expand. But don't get to like answer the question first. And then if they like 520 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,920 you to expand on that topic, great, but stay clear. Because again, it's going to tell them, how's my 521 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,200 internal communication with the Melissa? Is Melissa going to be one of those people that's like, 522 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,920 hey, I need a minute. And it's more like, you know, like, you know, you know, 50, 60 minutes, right? 523 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,840 Like those kind of things. So I think really sticking to that when you're talking and really making 524 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,800 sure back to like staying in the moment because often an interviewer or so hire manager is testing 525 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,880 you, they may say something earlier in the conversation. And if you're not really paying attention, 526 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,360 they may circle back at the end and ask you what you thought about that or how you related that to 527 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:53,000 some other aspect of your career. And if you're not really paying attention and really in the moment 528 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,600 and really staying engaged, you won't even know what they're talking about, right? And so, 529 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,400 and I think really being, make it easy on yourself. Have your resume there. Write down questions. 530 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,000 Ask tell, you know, tell them say, hey, I like some of the things you're saying. Do you mind if I take 531 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,120 notes? That way they know if you're, it doesn't look like you're distracted. You're just taking notes 532 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,760 on what they're saying. That's not always a bad thing. I always tell candidates ask first so that 533 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,840 they don't think you're just like writing something else. But like I said, I think it's just some of this is 534 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,160 just, I mean, some of this is just common sense. I mean, even on a tire, you know, it's where what you 535 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,320 would normally were to a professional interview. I don't know how other way to explain that. Like, 536 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:31,560 and I've actually prepared if you want to share the audience, I'm fine with that. I've prepared a 537 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,080 PowerPoint on the three different types of interviews and how to prepare for them differently 538 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,480 because a fun interview is one of the hardest interviews ever because they can't see you, 539 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,880 they can't see any inflat, they, you know, they can't see your face, they can't see it. I think 540 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,480 phononers are really hard. And I think they're also, I always try to deter my, my higher manager 541 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,880 from ruling someone out just based on a phononer review because I do think that that doesn't give you 542 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,880 anything about the soft skills telling someone to smile. All those, it's really hard. And, you know, 543 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:05,320 even to even inflection in your voice sometimes. But also we have one that's virtual and then on, 544 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,800 you know, an on site one and I have these tips and traits about preparing for them and those kind 545 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,720 of things because they're all very different. And I think there, you know, some people are comfortable 546 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,960 from a camera. Some aren't so practice. So don't make it a dry run the first time you've 547 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,200 interviewed because the last thing you want to do is a higher manager is say, you know, I really liked 548 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,880 everything about Melissa. I liked her resonate, but she was kind of awkward on screen. She was like, you 549 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,480 know, like, you know, and, and, and then you'll be kicking yourself because you're like, you know, 550 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,880 if I just practice that a couple times, like with my family, my friends, gosh, is that the reason 551 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,760 that again, they're looking for the little differences between you and someone else who prepared much better. 552 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,320 I love it. All good information. We'd love to share any extra information. 553 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:50,200 Laurie, I love talking to you. You always have so much great information. And the speed at which you 554 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,920 can get it all out is amazing. Northeast. From the Northeast originally, I'm not a born and bred 555 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,640 Texan, but I've been here for 20 years. That's probably a bad excuse. I love it. I love it. I follow 556 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:05,320 all of it. Thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate all your insights and all the 557 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,400 information you shared with our listeners. Connect with Laurie. She is always willing to help. And 558 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,760 until next time, thanks for listening to the Executive Connect podcast. Thanks, Melissa. Appreciate it. 559 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:25,640 You've been listening to the Executive Connect podcast. If you have questions or ideas on how to 560 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:33,400 bring leadership to the next level, email us at Executive Connect podcast@gmail.com. And don't forget to 561 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:43,560 subscribe, shake me, catch every new episode. Until next time.