Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public.
Whether they'd been involved or even aware of the national conversation around abortion
or not.
In 1991, Wichita Police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters, thousands of anti-abortion
activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly never lost
steam. Spanning several more.
PNW Haunts and Homicides where we talk about tru crime, the paranorml, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our
topic for the week, so make sure you stick around if you're into that.
It's a nice little palette cleanser at the end of a true crime or a scary story.
Yeah, I think we're gonna need it this week.
Okay.
Yeah.
Before we get started today, we are going to switch things up.
We're gonna do a Patreon shout out right at the top.
Who are we shouting out today?
Crystal with a K.
Oh my God, we have always said we love crystals.
We do love crystals.
And now we have our very own Krystal person.
Oh my God, she's cracking herself up over here.
Yes, Krystal actually joined as an annual Patreon member.
So literally is stuck with us for a year.
I know.
Can you imagine?
Oh, Krystal person.
We are gonna have so much fun.
Yeah.
We're super excited to have you.
Thanks for joining us.
And I think the annual membership thing is kind of cool because you get a discount off
the monthly tier rate.
So I think so too.
No, you definitely do.
I think that's cool.
Yeah, I think it's cool too.
That's where it's going without that.
I don't know the details.
I'm assuming you know the details of Patreon because I don't keep track.
So just to clarify, welcome Krystal.
We think the annual membership is really cool.
And I think that's that.
We also have a book review for Patreon on December 2nd.
Yes.
Saturday, December 2nd.
What time is it?
2pm, 12/2 at 2pm.
Pacific, standard time.
Obviously.
Because that's where we are.
That's where we are.
PNW baby.
Our book review and discussion is going to be centered on bright young women, a novel by
Jessica Knoll.
And it has a, I don't know.
Can I say it?
Or am I going to give too much away?
I don't know.
It has a real hashtag never Bundy vibe to it.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think we've talked about it before.
Okay.
In one of the last episodes.
Jessica Knoll is also the author of the book "Luckiest Girl Alive," which was of course then
turned into a movie, which is one of my favorites of all time.
Because I am the creepiest of creepy people.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She creepier than me.
I don't know about that.
Just creepy in different ways.
Yeah.
Well, should we say about that?
Should we stop stalling and get to your topic here?
I guess.
All right.
Born March 31st of 1956 to teenage parents and conceived out of wedlock, Shelley came
from humble beginnings in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin.
Ooh, Wisconsin.
Yeah.
Oh, Beaver Dam too.
Beaver Dam.
That kind of relates to Oregon.
Yeah.
Yep.
Beaver State, is that what we are?
I think so, yeah.
In 1974, she would become a young teenage mother herself when she gave birth to her first
child, a daughter.
She met David Shannon soon after, and within about a year, the couple had a child together,
a son.
The family of four moved all over the West Coast before eventually settling in
Grants Pass, Oregon in 1988.
Wow.
That's kind of a random place to land after traveling all over the West Coast.
Yeah.
I think so.
It's kind of like out there.
It is.
It's a little rural.
Definitely.
Rural juror.
Shelley was primarily a stay-at-home mother during this time, though leading up to the dramatic
events that made her infamous, Shelley had not been raised in the church or actively sought
out religion by her own account.
As an adult, she would begin regularly attending church services and women's Bible study classes.
That sounds really wholesome.
I have a feeling it's not going to stay that way.
Yeah.
When living in Grand Pass, Shelley would become well acquainted, not just with religion,
but with one of the great crusades of right-wing radical religious groups, anti-abortion activism.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't know how much you know about this.
Probably not a lot.
Things tend to make me angry beyond the point of comprehension.
Yes.
Yeah.
I try to stay away from things.
Yeah.
You're going to learn a lot now.
And then I think probably based on that, you'll go ahead and block it out again.
Okay.
We'll try.
In 1988, she began getting involved with the National Right to Life Committee.
Partially the oldest and largest of anti-abortion groups in the United States.
From there, she was quickly and completely indoctrinated by the arguably even more radical
operation rescue.
An extremist anti-abortion group established in the state of California.
Wow.
California.
I know.
Kind of surprising.
Yeah.
The letter group focuses on more direct and oftentimes violent action, rather than focusing
on lobbying as is typically the tact that the National Right to Life Committee has at
least historically taken.
It's interesting that they think they want to save lives and then they get violent.
How does that make sense?
Make it make sense.
Because they're infamous call to action states, if you believe abortion is murder, act like
it's murder.
What does that mean?
How do you reason with?
Okay.
The organization's headquarters is actually now located in Kansas in what was once an abortion
clinic that eventually shuttered due to repeated instances of harassment, threats, and violence.
By these people?
I would assume at least in part by them may have involved other people and other organizations,
but isn't that lovely?
Yeah.
Interesting.
Shelly quickly became entrenched in protests.
And then less than a year, she racked up dozens of hours worth of community service hours
in addition to fines, all before eventually being sentenced to four weeks jail time as a
result of multiple arrests.
Okay.
So she was so extreme.
The law was getting involved.
Correct.
Got it.
Yeah.
Go big or go home.
And I'm not going home.
Wow.
I'm going to jail.
Yeah.
Well, maybe that is home.
In 1989, she broadened her horizons or more accurately her arrest record by traveling to
additional out of state protests leading to arrests in both Atlanta and Seattle.
For long, her teenage daughter, Angela, was also not only attending the protests alongside
her mother, but also facing arrest at her side.
Oh, what a role model.
It makes me so unspeakably angry when children are dragged into the aspects of somebody else's
crime. And in this case, because she's been indoctrinated and brainwashed.
I hate it.
Poor kiddo.
Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public, whether they'd been involved
or even aware of the national conversation around abortion or not.
In 1991, which a top police arrested hundreds actually scratched that.
The numbers reported very depending on the source between 1500 and upwards of 2500.
Some reports even verging on close to 3,000.
What?
3,000 protesters.
They...
Let me say that again.
In 1991, which a top police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters in July and August.
That summer.
Wow.
Thousands of anti-abortion activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly
never lost steam, spanning several more.
So it was supposed to be a week, but it kept going.
Yep.
They were just having the time of their lives.
Sounds like.
Yeah.
I'm sure at this point, the topic became much more difficult to ignore or to feign ignorance
of.
So while it's been a national conversation, pretty much...
I feel like has it not just constantly been in the ether in this country?
Ever since, like, grade school I swear.
I've been hearing about abortion.
It's been like a topic of conversation all of my life.
Yeah.
Well, in Roe v. Wade, the passage in the 70s, like, obviously people were having this conversation
prior to that.
So I mean, yeah.
It spans multiple decades prior to our human existence.
Just, you know.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
I just...
I can't.
Now enter Dr. George Tiller of Wichita, Kansas.
Born 1941, he was a flight surgeon after attending medical school in the 1960s, when he unexpectedly
returned home to tend to his father's medical practice.
He was asked whether he'd continue performing abortions as his father had.
In case you're not totally sure in this moment, this is still very much a true crime podcast.
You guys, I promise.
I believe you.
All of this sounds like crime to me.
Yeah.
It is.
It's, like, inarguably.
But I would nerd out really hard on a lot of unusual topics.
Happily, I learned while researching.
But I digress, and I'm not the only one who occasionally sees their plans diverted.
In the family practice, he would deviate from his own plans for his medical practice career.
Dr. George Tiller performed post-viability abortions.
That word is kind of loaded right now.
Only for several recent decades, like we were just saying.
So I'll state, this was not without significant conditions.
We are talking about serious birth defects of the fetus, or serious irreparable bodily
harm to the pregnant person.
Oh, and by the way, you still needed two independent providers to sign off on your behalf for
the latter scenario.
Wow.
Okay, two.
Okay.
Still, for some reason, he became a significant target for anti-abortion extremist groups, and
their various versions of violence and protests.
But why would someone suddenly change course to practice medicine in a decidedly different
field than originally intended, and in a very polarized part of the country, where many
religious or conservative people, local and otherwise, would not take kindly to this work?
Cassie's got nothing.
She's like, why?
I don't know.
Just a month before he planned to start a dermatology residency program in 1970, Dr. Tiller
's father, mother, sister, and brother-in-law were all killed in a tragic accident.
Oh, my God.
As he was poised to take a huge step forward in his professional medical career, he was struck
by unimaginable tragedy, but also an impossible task.
As his sister's wishes were for him to take care of her son in the unlikely event of her
death.
Oh, wow.
Let the record state that whether she's listening or not, I want my friend Stephanie to know how
seriously this role would be undertaken in my case, which is a non-custodial scenario.
But I can't even imagine.
Like I'm a God-parent, like in the warm, fuzzy feeling way.
I can't imagine the pressure.
I know, just like gaining a whole child.
Yeah.
That's a lot.
And then like losing all of that family on top of it.
Oh my God.
That's a lot.
You're grieving the loss of basically your entire family.
And suddenly thrown into, oh, by the way, he just had a kid.
That kid is also grieving.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
He was really, really young.
He probably was not ultimately old enough to remember any of the family that passed.
Oh, I see.
I think he was, I want to say, around 14 months old.
He was under age two, as I recall.
So that's still going to be very traumatic for--
Of course.
--even that young of a child who is--
Absolutely.
--raised with people and all of a sudden they're gone and they don't understand why.
Yeah.
Oh, that's so sad.
Yeah.
Now, listen.
Under different circumstances, we'd all be giving Dr. Tiller a skeptical raise of the
eyebrow.
Because I mean, come on.
What are the chances?
It's pretty unusual for one's damn near entire family to be taken out in one fell swoop.
Unless it's intentional, right?
But sadly, Dr. Tiller's story is one of sorrow and unrelentingly horrific bad luck.
In the midst of this unexpected and unimaginable loss, George returned to his hometown to tend
to his father's practice of roughly three decades.
Can you imagine being expected to practice medicine?
Just period.
Full stop.
Under these circumstances?
No.
Hashtag.
Not a doctor.
Certainly don't want to be a doctor in that scenario.
Yeah.
What?
I feel like you need all of your brains to be at attention.
Yeah.
Wow.
Which I'm sure having something to focus on, like his work was probably, that was probably
a really healthy way for him to try to channel a lot of, you know, his attention and his time,
but my God.
That makes sense, yeah.
His father had been a general healthcare provider to many living in the mid-sized city
of Wichita.
That he had also offered safe abortion surfaces to his patients that required it.
Though it was reluctantly so, after the local community suffered a terrible tragedy, reportedly
dating back to the 1940s.
He had refused an abortion to a woman who already had two children, the second having been very
recently born.
When he refused, she found someone outside the medical profession willing to help her.
Unfortunately, complications from that procedure led to her death.
Oh, that is so scary and so sad.
It is.
You don't have any other option.
And though abortions had been performed at the clinic previously, it was in 1973, following
the Roe v. Wade decision that the picketing began.
But as violence often does, particularly when driven by unbending religious extremism,
it only escalated from there.
Still, it wasn't until 1983 that the clinic that Dr. Teller had taken over from his father
was fire bombed.
Oh my God, what?
Shelley was one of many that were arrested multiple times during that period.
Fire bombed?
I'm like stuck on that.
They fire bombed it.
That's violent as fuck.
It is.
If you're stuck on it, and I was when I read it, and I can't even tell you the number of,
and just the array of rabbit holes that I started to fall down about fire bombing.
I don't know what that means.
Is it a literal fire bomb?
Literally have that.
That's because I just think that especially in this context, it's really important to understand
it.
Okay.
I'm thinking a literal fire bomb.
Yeah.
A bomb of fire.
Fire bombing is pretty much what it sounds like if you're unfamiliar, but I feel the need
to explain this gorilla tactic just a little bit because within the definition are some
pretty intense implications.
From Wikipedia, fire bombing is a bombing technique designed to damage a target, generally
an urban area through the use of fire caused by incendiary devices rather than from the
blast effect of large bombs.
In popular usage, any act in which an incendiary device is used to initiate a fire is often described
as fire bombing.
If a fire catches, it could spread.
Being in adjacent buildings that would have been largely unaffected by a high explosive
bomb.
This is a more effective use of the payload that a bomber could carry.
Wow.
So it does more damage than an actual big bomb.
Yeah.
In some cases.
I mean, not obviously like not a nuke, but like.
Right.
And the crazy thing about it and this is actually a conversation that kind of spun out from trying
to wrap my head around this topic is that the way that we bomb in the modern era, it's
very violent.
I mean, that's still indisputable, but it's very precise.
So you can literally land a device on the engine block of a car and take out the front half
of a vehicle from miles away.
You're nowhere near that entire fire or not fire incident.
It's mind blowing, but in this instance, think Molotov cocktail here, kids, it's guerrilla
warfare with something as simple as gasoline.
That's so scary because literally anyone can do it and they are obviously.
And that sentiment, you're a witch.
I know.
Because it's.
I can't even believe it.
It gets so much scarier for that specific reason.
And you'll see why I was flabbergasted.
These wartime tactics brought to the home front in small cities and towns all over America
in the name of a cause that in this case, I particularly cannot wrap my head around.
You are fighting for the birth of something that in some sad cases amounts to little more
than a cluster of cells that cannot lead to a live birth.
These are instances where these are children that will, in many cases, never be because of
the nature of the types of abortion services that he offered.
I can't wrap my head around how you hate someone that much if you understand those facts.
I just.
I don't know.
I don't want to sound callous because fertility and the value of human life are, of course,
incredibly emotionally charged topics.
But how do you justify the level of violence that fire bombing constitutes against another
living, breathing human being in these cases?
We're not talking about people that are, in any way, casually having an abortion performed.
Everyone involved at this stage has been through enough.
How do you justify harassing someone who is already uniquely traumatized outside of a clinic
where they are trying to seek care for a medical issue that could already have been one of the
most devastating and painful experiences of their own as well as of their family's lives?
Most of a pregnancy or experiencing one that is no longer medically viable is heartbreaking
enough.
And something that there's entirely too much shame around to this day.
It's something that can happen spontaneously, reportedly up to 26% of the time, and oftentimes
before the pregnancy is even realized by the host.
And I say, "host intentionally," not to sound cold, but because a fetus like any guest
can overstay their welcome.
That's a good way to put it.
If you put the life of your host at risk under any other circumstance, that would be deemed
unacceptable.
That's true.
Now, obviously there were some situations where the abortions performed were because of
very serious birth defects and things like that.
And certainly for some people, that's an ethical issue or debate.
And I just can't believe we're having this conversation still in this country.
But our whole lives.
But it happens to more women than we care to think or to talk about.
Laws like the one Texas attempted to stand up, victimize women who experience incredibly
normal, but deeply traumatizing things like a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy.
And people like Shelley are part of the reason why.
As a woman socialized in this country, I can say that it's nearly impossible not to feel
a sense of loss or shame, and by no fault of your own, other than being a human that participates
in a biological process.
As much as I would fight for a woman's right not to have a child, I would fight to my dying
breath to protect another mother's child.
But thankfully, we're not here to talk about either me or motherhood.
We're here to talk about Shelley and some other duchess that she hangs out with.
It was after her multiple arrests during the summer of mercy in Wichita that Shelley
claimed she felt what the army of God describes as a call to forceful action.
Okay.
Red flag.
Literally makes no sense.
Like, I just, like, do you not, the combination of words?
Do you not hear your soul?
Yeah.
No, they don't.
No, no.
If you're hearing alarm bells, you are correct.
In 1992, Shelley set fire to the Catalina Medical Center in Ashland, one of the only abortion
providers in the area.
No one was injured, but the provider did reportedly decide to retire after receiving additional
threats.
Wow.
You just, like, changed multiple people's entire lives with violence.
Congratulations.
It was a clearly premeditated attack that Shelley later recalled in great detail.
Being quite emboldened, Shelley published how to destroy a killing center.
Oh my God.
Hyphen.
If you're just an old grandma who can't get a fire started in her fireplace.
I'm just rapid blinking.
But you.
What?
Published on the army of God website, which featured bizarrely detailed instructions
for how to proceed should one find themselves similarly motivated in their own local community
and wishing to avoid prosecution, you know, for by your bombing, a building.
It's literal terrorism.
Like, what?
I'm glad you said that.
Under God's name, well, I guess that happens.
I mean, I know that happens.
It's just like.
Cassie.
Hmm.
Her how to guide remains on the army of God website.
I didn't pay it a visit, but I can confirm.
The army of God is a US-based Christian terrorist organization as designated by the US government.
Words from the US Department of Justice that I would both eagerly and staunchly stand behind.
How was their website still up?
Like I understand free speech, but like that's you're literally instructing people on how
to commit terrorism.
Yeah, that's fucked up.
Domestic terrorism.
Is it on the dark web or is it just on the regular internet?
It's on the regular internet.
So I'm like, okay, dark web, whatever.
There's a bunch of shit on there.
I don't understand it.
But yeah.
I don't want to.
But this is just something that any person could come across, access.
So on August 19th of 1993, Dr. Tiller was in his car preparing to drive home at the end
of his workday at the clinic.
Shelley lay in wait and fired upon him several times.
And though he was indeed shot in both arms, he not only survived his injuries, but returned
to his practice the actual ass next day.
The next day?
Wow.
I cannot even imagine how scary and traumatizing that was to come back the next day.
Like to go back at all.
Yeah.
And while Shelley was really busy being significantly less successful at anything, the next day, good.
Though Shelley managed to evade arrest in Wichita initially, she was arrested in Oklahoma
as she was returning her rental car.
That same year, Shelley's daughter, Angela, was said to have written a death threat to another
abortion provider in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Aww.
Though it was Shelley that would at least attempt to take credit for the crime.
Shelley's husband, David, would turn on the news the next day after being instructed
by a friend, only to find that his wife appeared to be on the news and was being arrested.
Did he like have any idea about any of this?
Nope.
Oh my God.
Though it couldn't have been easy to tell that it was his wife, since police had wrapped
her in, I've heard either a towel or in paper towels.
Depending on the source.
They wrapped her up to avoid news cameras identifying her.
Oh, okay.
I was just like, why?
I don't get it.
Yeah, she went.
She didn't make any sense to me either.
I was like, what in the actual fuck are you talking about?
I hope it was paper towels.
I really do too.
I hope she was walking out of there looking like bandage man.
Yeah.
At the time of her arrest, he had reportedly been completely unaware of her plans.
He has remarkably condescending quote that would normally infuriate me.
But for Shelley, all at its light.
Furthermore, he apparently did not share her radical beliefs.
That's why I'm going to let it slide.
That's at least according to comments provided following her crime.
He basically said, um, I don't know.
This is Shelley's little hobby.
I don't partake.
I'm busy in the garage.
I'm busy just being a normal ass person.
Oh my gosh.
If you don't have any awareness of what your wife is doing and it's something like that's
that big.
Yeah.
I wanted to be fair.
Any woman can fly halfway across the country and do something completely different than
what she's telling her husband she's doing.
Yeah, I guess that's true.
In Shelley's initial statements, she tried to claim that she had not intended to kill
Dr. Tiller.
I was just shooting at him a little bit.
Yeah.
But crazy is as crazy does.
Apparently.
Because she quickly changed her story.
This did not go unnoticed through the course of her trial.
Imagine that.
The jury deliberated for one hour.
We're sentencing her to 11 years behind bars.
Damn.
One hour is not a lot.
Nope.
It's not usually a good thing when the jury comes back quickly.
I mean, for the defendant.
Yeah.
What did she change her story to?
Oh, just to the actual truth where she is truly evil and thinks that she has
been called by God to perpetrate unspeakable violence on other people in this world in order
to prevent any unborn baby from being harmed.
Was she trying to do the whole insanity thing?
Because that sounds a thing.
She does sound insane.
Not in the legal sense, but Angela was charged for threatening the murder.
She was the doctor in Wisconsin in 1997 and she was sentenced to 46 months.
Though Shelley had tried to take the blame for her daughter, Angela's prints were on the
letter.
Oh, well, so you can't get away from that, can you?
No.
Fingerprints are pretty solid.
She would later be released in 2001 after completing her sentence.
Angela.
Yeah, just clarify.
How old was she?
She was born in 1974.
So right after the passage of Roe v. Wade, just crazy.
So by 1997, that would make her, what, like, 23?
Something like that, okay.
Still too young to be threatening people.
Oh, yeah.
There is really not an acceptable age for that.
No.
Not a fan.
But Shelley's legal issues weren't entirely over.
In 1995, Shelley was sentenced to 20 years for federal crimes connected to various clinic
bombings.
Wow.
She was to serve the 11-year sentence for attempted murder prior to the additional
sentence of 20 years.
That's awesome.
Additionally, she was ordered to pay restitution to some of the clinics impacted by the attacks.
Damn.
Yeah.
And I don't know that they ever really saw any of that money, but it's the principle of
the thing.
It really is.
I agree.
You have to give your money to the people that you hate the most.
Yeah.
People can have a lot of differing opinions and feelings about abortion.
We don't have to agree on that issue.
If we don't, then you're wrong, but we don't have to agree.
But Shelley Shannon is a heinous, violent, terrorist, as is Scott Roder.
There are no two ways about it, but that's not the end of our story, unfortunately.
But you could probably guess that since I just introduced another character to this story.
Yeah.
Plot twist.
Spoiler alert, we hate him.
Okay.
I figured.
Sorry.
I tried to introduce you guys to nicer people, but they just don't commit as many murders.
Yeah.
Weird how that happens.
In May 31st, 2009, at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wichita, Dr. Tiller was assassinated
by Scott Roder.
He was shot in the head as he was performing service as an usher, just like any other Sunday.
What?
So this poor man was literally at church working for the church and was killed.
By someone in a church.
Wow.
By someone motivated.
By someone who claimed to be religious themselves.
Claimed to do this as a calling from God.
Like what if fucking slap in the face to God if you believe in him?
Like, geez.
Mm-hmm.
Scott Roder showed no remorse.
In his case, the jury was equally decisive.
He was convicted, then sentenced to life in prison.
He will not be eligible for parole until he has served 25 years.
Shelly was released in 2018 after serving 25 of the 31 years to which she was sentenced.
Not enough.
No.
Though she was released with the stipulation of a three-year monitored release, she has
continued to show no remorse for her actions.
She has also reportedly kept in touch with army of God members and other extremists through
both of her sentences.
The American Jewish Congress stated in a press release that Tiller's murder, quote,
"Exemplifies criminal andarchy, not legitimate protest."
Dr. Tiller's murder was not just a terrible crime against an individual.
It was also a crime against our democracy.
Murder is not a debating technique.
It is never and must never be an accepted way of advancing a point of view.
The president of the National Council of Jewish Women, Nancy Ratzin, stated,
"Dr. Tiller devoted his life to ensuring that women did indeed have choices, when confronted
with an unintended or untenable pregnancy.
His murder, his assassination, is intended to terrorize not only all involved with providing
abortions, but anyone even remotely associated with abortion rights."
It's really scary.
Years later, clinic staff that have relocated and begun working elsewhere have continued
to be harassed because they are known to have worked with Dr. Tiller and people that are
members of Army of God or other anti-abortion groups.
Track them down.
Like how do you think that that's going to get people on your side?
You can't possibly believe that that is a means to any reasonable end.
And yet, somehow they do.
I'm going to tell you the year that this article was published.
In August of this year, a 20-year-old man ostensibly seeking a job at a Kansas abortion clinic
was arrested after he told clinic staff his backpack contained an explosive device and knives,
according to Wichita Police.
Wow, 2015.
The explosive device was several fireworks that the suspect put together, according to authorities.
The incident occurred at South Wind Women's Center, which is in the same facility that Tiller
once occupied.
Julie Berkhardt, who used to work for Tiller, now runs a foundation that opened South Wind.
In August, she spoke about how his killing prompted the clinic to increase security.
She also spoke of the fear she lives with and said the August incident could have been much
worse than a man with some fireworks.
She said, quote, "I'm very concerned that someone would come in the building with weapons.
He was carrying knives and explosives.
This really illustrates to me that the security protocols that we have in place work."
Thank goodness.
So they caught him at the security?
Or yes, security identified that.
And on the flip side, a little bit of commentary from well the flip side.
The Reverend Donald Spitz, real name.
An anti-abortion activist who stayed in contact with Shannon.
Shelly Shannon said abortion rights activists should not be worried about Shannon's release.
I don't think she'll be doing anything violent.
Okay.
He is the leader of pro-life Virginia and sponsor of the Army of God website.
He said, "Of course, no one knows, but I'd be very surprised."
I do not trust his opinion.
Nope.
Don't worry.
She's fine.
She's not going to do anything.
No.
She probably won't do anything because she's already published her manifesto for violence.
She's doing.
Yeah.
He said he talked to Shannon and described her as upbeat about her release, but said he
didn't know Shannon's plans.
I'm sure she was upbeat about her release, but I don't believe for a second that you don't
know her plans.
Yeah.
Why are you talking then?
How can you be so sure that she's not going to be doing anything violent, but also you
don't know what any of her plans are?
And why are you talking about plans?
Like, if you're saying the word plans, it makes me think there's a plan.
You know, stands to reason.
Yeah.
Because normally, if it was me visiting you in prison and you were getting out, I would be
so Caitlin, what are your plans for like getting a job?
Like, where are you going to live?
You would know her plans in that regard, but you just don't know any plans.
You don't know anything about any plans.
Okay.
Sounds super believable.
And not at all anything to be concerned about.
Obviously, there's been a little bit of time that has passed and doesn't seem like there
has been anything violent that has occurred at least at Shelley's hands.
But you know, Shelley really doesn't have to create any of the chaos or violence with her
own hands anymore.
If you visit justice.gov, I've included the specific link in our pace bin.
Hopefully, it'll actually allow me to publish it where there are numerous recent violent
encounters that are summarized cases of violence and other various types of attacks, whether,
you know, verbal, whatever that may be against reproductive healthcare providers and their
staff.
Don't worry.
Right up at the top, there are several from 2023.
No, I don't want any.
Yeah.
I'm sure again, you don't have to agree that they are fighting a senseless battle at all.
I know there are plenty of people that don't agree, but surely most people can understand.
They can see that multiple assassination attempts and one of which, not an attempt, this was successful.
He was murdered in a goddamn church.
Surely we can agree that that is wrong.
Just like any violence is why you don't need to do that.
I just, there are official ways that you can go about getting your laws and whatever the
fuck you want, voted on.
Like you said, it's like a threat to democracy.
It really is.
One of the most upsetting things about researching this was realizing how people that were involved
in these protests and specifically a lot of the non-violent tactics that were utilized.
It was things like shutting down the freeways or they used a lot of non-violent tactics that
Black Lives Matter protest they've been condemned for.
Yeah, well of course.
Yeah.
The completely other thing that they're fighting for that they don't agree with.
Right.
That's irrational.
When I realized that I was like, and it goes back further than that.
It wasn't the Karen's outside plan parenthood that thought of the sitting in the middle of
the freeway or all of these various non-violent protest strategies.
It goes back to the civil rights movement.
Yeah.
But it was so interesting to me to think about how different the languages in those conversations.
The headline is that everyone fucking sucks.
Not everyone.
A lot of people.
Yeah.
I don't know Cassie.
Not everyone sucks.
But a lot of people do.
You know what doesn't suck?
What?
Well, tarot doesn't suck to us.
My God.
Nobody better write us an email saying tarot sucks.
If it sucks, you know, there's an off button.
Yeah.
So suck it and you suck it.
And if you're pushing the off button, that means you push the on button, which means you
gave us a download.
Thank you.
So we also are going to have a little Patreon bonus to accompany this episode because
something really frickin bizarre happened to us last night.
Yeah.
So I was texting Caitlin about this topic I was working on and it was a topic that you're
not supposed to talk about.
It's not the main one.
Everyone knows it's a different one.
Imagine that.
Yeah.
So I texted her and I was like, "Haha, I'm working on this topic that you're not supposed
to talk about.
Hope I don't have any technological problems."
And like three minutes later.
It just crashes and is like, you know, the error message.
Honestly, it's unreal.
And then it happens again.
Every time I try to copy and paste and I was trying to copy and paste someone's comment
saying it's like a warning that this is real.
Almost like you couldn't drill into that head with a bit.
So if this wasn't enough, I...
So I screen-shoted that to Caitlin and sent it to her.
And then she sees this little tiny comment that someone had made that had absolutely nothing
to do with what I was talking about, like totally nothing to do with it.
And she just assumed like that was my topic, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so she Googles it and she's like, "Are you fucking kidding me?
This is a fertility god."
And I am working on this story that's, you know, kind of about fertility.
And...
Yeah.
So I was like, "Okay, is this a sign that I need to just drop this other topic for now and
just research this fertility god?"
Yeah.
A little and do a little bonus on it for Patreon.
So that's what I did.
I dropped my entire episode and worked on a bonus.
Well, you know, as one does sometimes.
But it's really interesting what I found.
Oh, boy.
Yeah.
I have about, I think, two and a half pages.
Oh, boy.
It's really cool.
A lot of it really directly relates, I feel like, to Caitlin.
So, uh, gray in a really good way, not bad.
Oh, okay.
Well, that whole thing was positive because you were kind of questioning your topic.
And I think that was just a sign like that you were doing the right thing.
Yeah.
I was.
I feel like this was a really tough one just because I know that abortion specifically
is a very controversial topic, but we're not really talking about abortion.
I mean, I did.
And I have a lot of thoughts and feelings.
And I did my best to reign the moon.
But, um, you know, this is about something far more significant than that.
It's just, you know, violence that doesn't have anything to do with, you know, what's
now become a political talking point.
Yeah.
You're an arsonist.
You're an attempted murder, arrests or an actual murderer.
Yeah.
I just got like this thing in my head, like murder to protest murder.
Yeah.
How does that make sense?
Make it make sense.
I don't think it's murder personally, but like coming from their standpoint.
But if you believe that it's murder and act like it's murder, yeah.
I just, I, yeah, just going to use their own goddamn slogan against them.
Anyway, so Patreon's going to get a really cool bonus.
And I think Caitlin's going to love it.
I'm excited to tell her about it.
Yeah.
Yay.
As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows.
So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.
Let's show them some love you can find their info in our show notes.
Hey creepy people.
It's Gemma from I think my fridge is haunted, a very creepy podcast for very creepy people.
We tell all kinds of weird stories from the paranormal to aliens, true crime and history.
But what makes us different from all those other podcasts talking about this stuff?
Well, that's a good question.
And the answer is simple.
We have Australian accents.
Join me in my secret new co-host as we launch season six this August on Apple podcasts,
Spotify, Podbean and all good podcast platforms.
Until then, be creepy.
But don't be a creep.
You guys were back.
And don't worry, we did get more wine.
Well, of course.
I have shuffled.
I'm going to do it.
And then I can't let's go to shuffle and pull.
What was that?
Wow.
You guys, I've been having a lot of problems with my hands.
I cut my ring finger.
You can't really see that with the light.
It's like mini cards.
Oh, Caitlin.
I can't reach any of them.
Struggle bus, passenger number one.
If it wasn't 20 cards that fell away, could he use that?
I know.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like there's chaotic energy in here.
I was trying to cleanse it.
Okay, there we go.
We're feeling a little better.
We also just came off of an interview with some creepy, creepy haps.
Oh, interesting.
The star.
It's a very positive card.
It is, which seems a little odd, but I'm going to roll with it.
I love getting positive cards after a truly horrific story.
I feel like this was the doctor.
I should look up what kind of bird that is.
Yes.
Do that.
Okay.
Keywords are happiness, hope, light at the end of the tunnel and good fortune.
This lovely card often portrays a nude female figure in or beside a pool of water.
In some decks, she pours water from two jugs or chalices.
In the writer wait Smith deck, she pours the contents of one picture into a stream and
the other one onto the ground, showing the connection between two feminine elements,
water and earth.
They are shine in the background, sometimes in a circle or a halo-like formation around
her.
The naked woman represents truth and purity.
The jugs contain the waters of life.
Yeah, it's a very feminine card from what I remember.
We've read it a lot.
Wow.
And I've read it very recently.
We see shooting stars as Harp and Jersey of Good Luck.
We wish upon a star for the star is a universal symbol of hope.
Getting this card is like looking up at the bright starry sky on a clear night and seeing
all the magnificence of the universe.
This is a time of fulfillment, good fortune, creative inspiration and spiritual growth.
When you receive help from unseen forces and wishes come true.
The star signals an end to problems and the start of a new, happier phase of life.
I fucking hope so.
I think of it as the light at the end of the tunnel card.
Oh my god.
Like people who have had a near death experience and they see the light.
Or people that have been through a lot of shit.
Yeah.
Well, it's just interesting to me too because it talks about pouring the contents of one
picture into a stream and the other one onto the ground.
And immediately I had this flash of like that old saying throwing the baby out with the
bath water.
Which seems weird.
But I think there's, it just sort of speaks to, there's a way of handling disagreements.
I think, you know, kind of some of those quotations from the Jewish women leagues.
They really summarized.
I think probably what a lot of us would wish to say so eloquently.
Yeah.
You've been preparing for this time and now you've arrived.
The star shows you're in harmony with your life purpose using your gifts beneficially.
It signifies inspiration, intuition, inner wisdom, and joy.
In a reading about money, the star signals an improvement in your financial position.
Help comes from both the invisible world and the material one.
Remain hopeful.
Your dreams can be achieved.
If the reading is about your job, you may be moving into the spotlight.
Being recognition for your efforts, you're the star, and it's your turn to shine.
You feel good about yourself and confident in your place in the universe.
Success lies just around the corner.
In a reading about love, this card represents a bright, beautiful relationship that inspires
you and brings you joy.
The wish you made has or will soon come true.
Wow.
I just think it's an overall positive card.
It is.
You can't let the evil people win.
No.
Just keep trucking on.
Yeah.
Things will get better, hopefully.
Even though it's still happening in 2023.
Well, it's a morning dove.
A morning dove.
Interesting because you know, morning MOUR and it is spelled morning.
In that.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's interesting that I immediately just like, you're strong into it.
Like Doctor the God assassinated or like anyone else who lost their life or went through
a lot of pain because of these horrible people.
Wow.
Yeah.
Just should I read this?
Yeah.
Why not?
I'll try.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
I said that right.
You do.
Filled with trepidation and fear, he flew towards the bright beacon above the horizon.
Doves wings kept him aloft in the daylight through forest, valley and wasteland, heading
ever toward the morning star, still shining in the distance.
His dove journeyed, his heart lightened and felt echoes of past pilgrims.
His path intertwined with those of other travelers.
He left his fear behind.
He wheeled joyously in the sky and skimmed above the clouds, flying higher than he had any
right to.
He tested the boundaries of himself and the world he inhabited.
Wow.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
He tested the boundaries of the world he inhabited.
Okay.
A part of him hoped that he'd never reached that star, not wanting to journey to the end.
The rest of him wondered what would happen if he got there.
I'm wondering if you remember this fact about him, which was that he was a flight surgeon.
Really?
Wow.
I did not know that.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
I was right.
I mean, very representative.
I mean, the symbolism seems...
Wow.
Maybe I'm crazy, but...
No, I don't seem too pretty clear.
You're crazy.
What number is this?
17.
Yes.
I don't know if that has any significance?
I can't think of anything specific that resonates with that, but...
I'm going to check.
That was just really cool.
That was a good one.
That was what I wanted.
That was the energy I put into the car.
Yeah.
I mean, that was...
It felt more positive than that story felt like it had a right to.
Yeah.
So, they just can't win.
They can't do it.
No.
We have to be positive.
Okay.
Creepy ass day.
[Music]
He wheeled jealousy in the sky and skimmed above the clouds.
I'm sorry.
I read that wrong again.
He wheeled jealousy.
Joyously?
Yeah.
What are kissing jealous?
I don't know.
Okay.
Re-do.
Cause you wish you could fly.
I know.
It's true.
Yeah.
[Music] pnwhauntsandhomicides.com