1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,640 Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:15,000 Whether they'd been involved or even aware of the national conversation around abortion 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,300 or not. 4 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:26,400 In 1991, Wichita Police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters, thousands of anti-abortion 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:32,960 activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly never lost 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:58,040 steam. Spanning several more. 7 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,400 PNW Haunts and Homicides where we talk about tru crime, the paranorml, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight into our 8 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,240 topic for the week, so make sure you stick around if you're into that. 9 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:12,240 It's a nice little palette cleanser at the end of a true crime or a scary story. 10 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,280 Yeah, I think we're gonna need it this week. 11 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,280 Okay. 12 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:18,580 Yeah. 13 00:01:18,580 --> 00:01:23,600 Before we get started today, we are going to switch things up. 14 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,080 We're gonna do a Patreon shout out right at the top. 15 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Who are we shouting out today? 16 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,720 Crystal with a K. 17 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,720 Oh my God, we have always said we love crystals. 18 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:38,720 We do love crystals. 19 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,920 And now we have our very own Krystal person. 20 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,400 Oh my God, she's cracking herself up over here. 21 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:53,560 Yes, Krystal actually joined as an annual Patreon member. 22 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,200 So literally is stuck with us for a year. 23 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,560 I know. 24 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,080 Can you imagine? 25 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,440 Oh, Krystal person. 26 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,480 We are gonna have so much fun. 27 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,480 Yeah. 28 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,440 We're super excited to have you. 29 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,560 Thanks for joining us. 30 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,200 And I think the annual membership thing is kind of cool because you get a discount off 31 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,280 the monthly tier rate. 32 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,200 So I think so too. 33 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,360 No, you definitely do. 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:24,360 I think that's cool. 35 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,040 Yeah, I think it's cool too. 36 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,840 That's where it's going without that. 37 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,320 I don't know the details. 38 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,520 I'm assuming you know the details of Patreon because I don't keep track. 39 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,120 So just to clarify, welcome Krystal. 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,480 We think the annual membership is really cool. 41 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,040 And I think that's that. 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:51,800 We also have a book review for Patreon on December 2nd. 43 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:52,800 Yes. 44 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:53,800 Saturday, December 2nd. 45 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:54,800 What time is it? 46 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,920 2pm, 12/2 at 2pm. 47 00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:59,920 Pacific, standard time. 48 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:01,080 Obviously. 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,840 Because that's where we are. 50 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:03,840 That's where we are. 51 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:04,840 PNW baby. 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:13,480 Our book review and discussion is going to be centered on bright young women, a novel by 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,120 Jessica Knoll. 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,560 And it has a, I don't know. 55 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:19,560 Can I say it? 56 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,040 Or am I going to give too much away? 57 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,040 I don't know. 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,160 It has a real hashtag never Bundy vibe to it. 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:27,160 Yeah, definitely. 60 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:28,640 And I think we've talked about it before. 61 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:29,640 Okay. 62 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:31,560 In one of the last episodes. 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:38,720 Jessica Knoll is also the author of the book "Luckiest Girl Alive," which was of course then 64 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:44,760 turned into a movie, which is one of my favorites of all time. 65 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,080 Because I am the creepiest of creepy people. 66 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,080 So. 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,080 Yeah. 68 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,880 She creepier than me. 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,640 I don't know about that. 71 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,040 Just creepy in different ways. 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Yeah. 73 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,920 Well, should we say about that? 74 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,400 Should we stop stalling and get to your topic here? 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:08,640 I guess. 76 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,920 All right. 77 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:19,760 Born March 31st of 1956 to teenage parents and conceived out of wedlock, Shelley came 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,480 from humble beginnings in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin. 79 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,480 Ooh, Wisconsin. 80 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,480 Yeah. 81 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:28,480 Oh, Beaver Dam too. 82 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:29,480 Beaver Dam. 83 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,280 That kind of relates to Oregon. 84 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:32,280 Yeah. 85 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:33,280 Yep. 86 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:34,960 Beaver State, is that what we are? 87 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,880 I think so, yeah. 88 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:43,240 In 1974, she would become a young teenage mother herself when she gave birth to her first 89 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,960 child, a daughter. 90 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:52,280 She met David Shannon soon after, and within about a year, the couple had a child together, 91 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:53,800 a son. 92 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:59,080 The family of four moved all over the West Coast before eventually settling in 93 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,320 Grants Pass, Oregon in 1988. 94 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:03,320 Wow. 95 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,400 That's kind of a random place to land after traveling all over the West Coast. 96 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:09,400 Yeah. 97 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,400 I think so. 98 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,360 It's kind of like out there. 99 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,360 It is. 100 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,360 It's a little rural. 101 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:16,360 Definitely. 102 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,360 Rural juror. 103 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,640 Shelley was primarily a stay-at-home mother during this time, though leading up to the dramatic 104 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,400 events that made her infamous, Shelley had not been raised in the church or actively sought 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440 out religion by her own account. 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:38,960 As an adult, she would begin regularly attending church services and women's Bible study classes. 107 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,360 That sounds really wholesome. 108 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:48,120 I have a feeling it's not going to stay that way. 109 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Yeah. 110 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,120 When living in Grand Pass, Shelley would become well acquainted, not just with religion, 111 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:03,360 but with one of the great crusades of right-wing radical religious groups, anti-abortion activism. 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,360 Okay. 113 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,360 Yeah. 114 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,760 I don't know how much you know about this. 115 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,080 Probably not a lot. 116 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,040 Things tend to make me angry beyond the point of comprehension. 117 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,040 Yes. 118 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,040 Yeah. 119 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,040 I try to stay away from things. 120 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,040 Yeah. 121 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,880 You're going to learn a lot now. 122 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:29,280 And then I think probably based on that, you'll go ahead and block it out again. 123 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:30,280 Okay. 124 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:31,280 We'll try. 125 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:37,160 In 1988, she began getting involved with the National Right to Life Committee. 126 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:44,320 Partially the oldest and largest of anti-abortion groups in the United States. 127 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:51,760 From there, she was quickly and completely indoctrinated by the arguably even more radical 128 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,320 operation rescue. 129 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,640 An extremist anti-abortion group established in the state of California. 130 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:00,640 Wow. 131 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:01,640 California. 132 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,640 I know. 133 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,920 Kind of surprising. 134 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:04,920 Yeah. 135 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:12,640 The letter group focuses on more direct and oftentimes violent action, rather than focusing 136 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:19,280 on lobbying as is typically the tact that the National Right to Life Committee has at 137 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,720 least historically taken. 138 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:27,560 It's interesting that they think they want to save lives and then they get violent. 139 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,280 How does that make sense? 140 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,960 Make it make sense. 141 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:37,720 Because they're infamous call to action states, if you believe abortion is murder, act like 142 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,880 it's murder. 143 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,560 What does that mean? 144 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,360 How do you reason with? 145 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,360 Okay. 146 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:56,360 The organization's headquarters is actually now located in Kansas in what was once an abortion 147 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:05,600 clinic that eventually shuttered due to repeated instances of harassment, threats, and violence. 148 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,960 By these people? 149 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:13,960 I would assume at least in part by them may have involved other people and other organizations, 150 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,800 but isn't that lovely? 151 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:16,800 Yeah. 152 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:17,800 Interesting. 153 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,320 Shelly quickly became entrenched in protests. 154 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:27,640 And then less than a year, she racked up dozens of hours worth of community service hours 155 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:34,520 in addition to fines, all before eventually being sentenced to four weeks jail time as a 156 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,320 result of multiple arrests. 157 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,320 Okay. 158 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,440 So she was so extreme. 159 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,160 The law was getting involved. 160 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,160 Correct. 161 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,160 Got it. 162 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:45,160 Yeah. 163 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,160 Go big or go home. 164 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,760 And I'm not going home. 165 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:48,760 Wow. 166 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:49,760 I'm going to jail. 167 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:50,760 Yeah. 168 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,800 Well, maybe that is home. 169 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:04,480 In 1989, she broadened her horizons or more accurately her arrest record by traveling to 170 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:12,160 additional out of state protests leading to arrests in both Atlanta and Seattle. 171 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:22,440 For long, her teenage daughter, Angela, was also not only attending the protests alongside 172 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,640 her mother, but also facing arrest at her side. 173 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Oh, what a role model. 174 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:38,000 It makes me so unspeakably angry when children are dragged into the aspects of somebody else's 175 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:45,600 crime. And in this case, because she's been indoctrinated and brainwashed. 176 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,600 I hate it. 177 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,600 I hate it. 178 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,440 Poor kiddo. 179 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:58,120 Before long, the summer of mercy was thrust upon the public, whether they'd been involved 180 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:04,520 or even aware of the national conversation around abortion or not. 181 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:12,000 In 1991, which a top police arrested hundreds actually scratched that. 182 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:20,960 The numbers reported very depending on the source between 1500 and upwards of 2500. 183 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Some reports even verging on close to 3,000. 184 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:26,440 What? 185 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,120 3,000 protesters. 186 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,120 They... 187 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,640 Let me say that again. 188 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:44,400 In 1991, which a top police arrested potentially up to 3,000 protesters in July and August. 189 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:45,400 That summer. 190 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Wow. 191 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:54,160 Thousands of anti-abortion activists gathered for what began as a week-long protest that seemingly 192 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,760 never lost steam, spanning several more. 193 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,080 So it was supposed to be a week, but it kept going. 194 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,080 Yep. 195 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,000 They were just having the time of their lives. 196 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,320 Sounds like. 197 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:07,320 Yeah. 198 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:13,520 I'm sure at this point, the topic became much more difficult to ignore or to feign ignorance 199 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,520 of. 200 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:22,280 So while it's been a national conversation, pretty much... 201 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,560 I feel like has it not just constantly been in the ether in this country? 202 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,800 Ever since, like, grade school I swear. 203 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,640 I've been hearing about abortion. 204 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,760 It's been like a topic of conversation all of my life. 205 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Yeah. 206 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:44,080 Well, in Roe v. Wade, the passage in the 70s, like, obviously people were having this conversation 207 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:45,080 prior to that. 208 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,400 So I mean, yeah. 209 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:52,800 It spans multiple decades prior to our human existence. 210 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,800 Just, you know. 211 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Yeah. 212 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:56,800 Yeah. 213 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:57,800 It's crazy. 214 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:58,800 I just... 215 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,720 I can't. 216 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,320 Now enter Dr. George Tiller of Wichita, Kansas. 217 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:13,760 Born 1941, he was a flight surgeon after attending medical school in the 1960s, when he unexpectedly 218 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,200 returned home to tend to his father's medical practice. 219 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:24,880 He was asked whether he'd continue performing abortions as his father had. 220 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:31,680 In case you're not totally sure in this moment, this is still very much a true crime podcast. 221 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:33,600 You guys, I promise. 222 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:34,600 I believe you. 223 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,600 All of this sounds like crime to me. 224 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Yeah. 225 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,600 It is. 226 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,720 It's, like, inarguably. 227 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,480 But I would nerd out really hard on a lot of unusual topics. 228 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,640 Happily, I learned while researching. 229 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:58,480 But I digress, and I'm not the only one who occasionally sees their plans diverted. 230 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:05,720 In the family practice, he would deviate from his own plans for his medical practice career. 231 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:12,600 Dr. George Tiller performed post-viability abortions. 232 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,680 That word is kind of loaded right now. 233 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:21,720 Only for several recent decades, like we were just saying. 234 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,040 So I'll state, this was not without significant conditions. 235 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:34,440 We are talking about serious birth defects of the fetus, or serious irreparable bodily 236 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,760 harm to the pregnant person. 237 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:46,520 Oh, and by the way, you still needed two independent providers to sign off on your behalf for 238 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,520 the latter scenario. 239 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:49,520 Wow. 240 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,520 Okay, two. 241 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,520 Okay. 242 00:13:52,520 --> 00:14:00,120 Still, for some reason, he became a significant target for anti-abortion extremist groups, and 243 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,720 their various versions of violence and protests. 244 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:11,040 But why would someone suddenly change course to practice medicine in a decidedly different 245 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:18,420 field than originally intended, and in a very polarized part of the country, where many 246 00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:28,080 religious or conservative people, local and otherwise, would not take kindly to this work? 247 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,600 Cassie's got nothing. 248 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,600 She's like, why? 249 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:31,600 I don't know. 250 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,200 I don't know. 251 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:41,000 Just a month before he planned to start a dermatology residency program in 1970, Dr. Tiller 252 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:50,440 's father, mother, sister, and brother-in-law were all killed in a tragic accident. 253 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,520 Oh, my God. 254 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:58,880 As he was poised to take a huge step forward in his professional medical career, he was struck 255 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:05,840 by unimaginable tragedy, but also an impossible task. 256 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:14,600 As his sister's wishes were for him to take care of her son in the unlikely event of her 257 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,600 death. 258 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,840 Oh, wow. 259 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:25,680 Let the record state that whether she's listening or not, I want my friend Stephanie to know how 260 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:34,080 seriously this role would be undertaken in my case, which is a non-custodial scenario. 261 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,400 But I can't even imagine. 262 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:44,320 Like I'm a God-parent, like in the warm, fuzzy feeling way. 263 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,840 I can't imagine the pressure. 264 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,640 I know, just like gaining a whole child. 265 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,640 Yeah. 266 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:51,640 That's a lot. 267 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,440 And then like losing all of that family on top of it. 268 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:55,440 Oh my God. 269 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,440 That's a lot. 270 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,560 You're grieving the loss of basically your entire family. 271 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:07,040 And suddenly thrown into, oh, by the way, he just had a kid. 272 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,880 That kid is also grieving. 273 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:09,880 Yeah. 274 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,200 Oh, wow. 275 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,480 He was really, really young. 276 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:20,920 He probably was not ultimately old enough to remember any of the family that passed. 277 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,080 Oh, I see. 278 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,520 I think he was, I want to say, around 14 months old. 279 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,920 He was under age two, as I recall. 280 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,240 So that's still going to be very traumatic for-- 281 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,240 Of course. 282 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,000 --even that young of a child who is-- 283 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000 Absolutely. 284 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,640 --raised with people and all of a sudden they're gone and they don't understand why. 285 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:41,640 Yeah. 286 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:42,840 Oh, that's so sad. 287 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:43,840 Yeah. 288 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,520 Now, listen. 289 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:51,280 Under different circumstances, we'd all be giving Dr. Tiller a skeptical raise of the 290 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:52,280 eyebrow. 291 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,640 Because I mean, come on. 292 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,440 What are the chances? 293 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:04,120 It's pretty unusual for one's damn near entire family to be taken out in one fell swoop. 294 00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:06,680 Unless it's intentional, right? 295 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:16,760 But sadly, Dr. Tiller's story is one of sorrow and unrelentingly horrific bad luck. 296 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:24,040 In the midst of this unexpected and unimaginable loss, George returned to his hometown to tend 297 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,280 to his father's practice of roughly three decades. 298 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,400 Can you imagine being expected to practice medicine? 299 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:34,400 Just period. 300 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,880 Full stop. 301 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,880 Under these circumstances? 302 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:38,880 No. 303 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:39,880 No. 304 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:40,880 Hashtag. 305 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,880 Not a doctor. 306 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,480 Certainly don't want to be a doctor in that scenario. 307 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,480 Yeah. 308 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:48,480 What? 309 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,600 I feel like you need all of your brains to be at attention. 310 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,600 Yeah. 311 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:53,600 Wow. 312 00:17:53,600 --> 00:18:00,240 Which I'm sure having something to focus on, like his work was probably, that was probably 313 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:08,440 a really healthy way for him to try to channel a lot of, you know, his attention and his time, 314 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,440 but my God. 315 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,440 That makes sense, yeah. 316 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,880 His father had been a general healthcare provider to many living in the mid-sized city 317 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,840 of Wichita. 318 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:29,200 That he had also offered safe abortion surfaces to his patients that required it. 319 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:37,320 Though it was reluctantly so, after the local community suffered a terrible tragedy, reportedly 320 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,760 dating back to the 1940s. 321 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:47,920 He had refused an abortion to a woman who already had two children, the second having been very 322 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,680 recently born. 323 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:57,880 When he refused, she found someone outside the medical profession willing to help her. 324 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:03,480 Unfortunately, complications from that procedure led to her death. 325 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,360 Oh, that is so scary and so sad. 326 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:08,360 It is. 327 00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:12,440 You don't have any other option. 328 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:20,520 And though abortions had been performed at the clinic previously, it was in 1973, following 329 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:26,040 the Roe v. Wade decision that the picketing began. 330 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:33,640 But as violence often does, particularly when driven by unbending religious extremism, 331 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,160 it only escalated from there. 332 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:45,560 Still, it wasn't until 1983 that the clinic that Dr. Teller had taken over from his father 333 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,400 was fire bombed. 334 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,920 Oh my God, what? 335 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:56,560 Shelley was one of many that were arrested multiple times during that period. 336 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,880 Fire bombed? 337 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,000 I'm like stuck on that. 338 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,640 They fire bombed it. 339 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,440 That's violent as fuck. 340 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,440 It is. 341 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:15,760 If you're stuck on it, and I was when I read it, and I can't even tell you the number of, 342 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:23,880 and just the array of rabbit holes that I started to fall down about fire bombing. 343 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,880 I don't know what that means. 344 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Is it a literal fire bomb? 345 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,360 Literally have that. 346 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:37,880 That's because I just think that especially in this context, it's really important to understand 347 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:38,880 it. 348 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:39,880 Okay. 349 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,240 I'm thinking a literal fire bomb. 350 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,240 Yeah. 351 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,240 A bomb of fire. 352 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:51,840 Fire bombing is pretty much what it sounds like if you're unfamiliar, but I feel the need 353 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:59,160 to explain this gorilla tactic just a little bit because within the definition are some 354 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,400 pretty intense implications. 355 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:11,920 From Wikipedia, fire bombing is a bombing technique designed to damage a target, generally 356 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:19,720 an urban area through the use of fire caused by incendiary devices rather than from the 357 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,400 blast effect of large bombs. 358 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:32,520 In popular usage, any act in which an incendiary device is used to initiate a fire is often described 359 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,200 as fire bombing. 360 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,200 If a fire catches, it could spread. 361 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:45,400 Being in adjacent buildings that would have been largely unaffected by a high explosive 362 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,640 bomb. 363 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,160 This is a more effective use of the payload that a bomber could carry. 364 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,160 Wow. 365 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,640 So it does more damage than an actual big bomb. 366 00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,640 Yeah. 367 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,640 In some cases. 368 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,800 I mean, not obviously like not a nuke, but like. 369 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:04,800 Right. 370 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:12,760 And the crazy thing about it and this is actually a conversation that kind of spun out from trying 371 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:23,600 to wrap my head around this topic is that the way that we bomb in the modern era, it's 372 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,600 very violent. 373 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:32,720 I mean, that's still indisputable, but it's very precise. 374 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:46,040 So you can literally land a device on the engine block of a car and take out the front half 375 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,000 of a vehicle from miles away. 376 00:22:51,000 --> 00:23:02,280 You're nowhere near that entire fire or not fire incident. 377 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:09,820 It's mind blowing, but in this instance, think Molotov cocktail here, kids, it's guerrilla 378 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:13,720 warfare with something as simple as gasoline. 379 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:21,520 That's so scary because literally anyone can do it and they are obviously. 380 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,080 And that sentiment, you're a witch. 381 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,080 I know. 382 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,080 Because it's. 383 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,840 I can't even believe it. 384 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:36,880 It gets so much scarier for that specific reason. 385 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:43,000 And you'll see why I was flabbergasted. 386 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:49,080 These wartime tactics brought to the home front in small cities and towns all over America 387 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:57,560 in the name of a cause that in this case, I particularly cannot wrap my head around. 388 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:04,560 You are fighting for the birth of something that in some sad cases amounts to little more 389 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:12,200 than a cluster of cells that cannot lead to a live birth. 390 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:21,040 These are instances where these are children that will, in many cases, never be because of 391 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:27,920 the nature of the types of abortion services that he offered. 392 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:38,400 I can't wrap my head around how you hate someone that much if you understand those facts. 393 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,400 I just. 394 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,520 I don't know. 395 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:49,040 I don't want to sound callous because fertility and the value of human life are, of course, 396 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,440 incredibly emotionally charged topics. 397 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:59,400 But how do you justify the level of violence that fire bombing constitutes against another 398 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,440 living, breathing human being in these cases? 399 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:11,960 We're not talking about people that are, in any way, casually having an abortion performed. 400 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,880 Everyone involved at this stage has been through enough. 401 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:24,880 How do you justify harassing someone who is already uniquely traumatized outside of a clinic 402 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:31,000 where they are trying to seek care for a medical issue that could already have been one of the 403 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:40,480 most devastating and painful experiences of their own as well as of their family's lives? 404 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:47,480 Most of a pregnancy or experiencing one that is no longer medically viable is heartbreaking 405 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,960 enough. 406 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:54,640 And something that there's entirely too much shame around to this day. 407 00:25:54,640 --> 00:26:02,720 It's something that can happen spontaneously, reportedly up to 26% of the time, and oftentimes 408 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,840 before the pregnancy is even realized by the host. 409 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:16,120 And I say, "host intentionally," not to sound cold, but because a fetus like any guest 410 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,160 can overstay their welcome. 411 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,680 That's a good way to put it. 412 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:28,360 If you put the life of your host at risk under any other circumstance, that would be deemed 413 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:29,360 unacceptable. 414 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,440 That's true. 415 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:41,120 Now, obviously there were some situations where the abortions performed were because of 416 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,920 very serious birth defects and things like that. 417 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:51,560 And certainly for some people, that's an ethical issue or debate. 418 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:59,240 And I just can't believe we're having this conversation still in this country. 419 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,240 But our whole lives. 420 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:08,800 But it happens to more women than we care to think or to talk about. 421 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:15,360 Laws like the one Texas attempted to stand up, victimize women who experience incredibly 422 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:23,080 normal, but deeply traumatizing things like a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy. 423 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,680 And people like Shelley are part of the reason why. 424 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,000 As a woman socialized in this country, I can say that it's nearly impossible not to feel 425 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:41,600 a sense of loss or shame, and by no fault of your own, other than being a human that participates 426 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,720 in a biological process. 427 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,280 As much as I would fight for a woman's right not to have a child, I would fight to my dying 428 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,800 breath to protect another mother's child. 429 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:02,280 But thankfully, we're not here to talk about either me or motherhood. 430 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:08,880 We're here to talk about Shelley and some other duchess that she hangs out with. 431 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,040 It was after her multiple arrests during the summer of mercy in Wichita that Shelley 432 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:21,960 claimed she felt what the army of God describes as a call to forceful action. 433 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:22,960 Okay. 434 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,520 Red flag. 435 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,520 Literally makes no sense. 436 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:36,360 Like, I just, like, do you not, the combination of words? 437 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,360 Do you not hear your soul? 438 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,360 Yeah. 439 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,360 No, they don't. 440 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,120 No, no. 441 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,640 If you're hearing alarm bells, you are correct. 442 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:54,160 In 1992, Shelley set fire to the Catalina Medical Center in Ashland, one of the only abortion 443 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,600 providers in the area. 444 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:02,380 No one was injured, but the provider did reportedly decide to retire after receiving additional 445 00:29:02,380 --> 00:29:03,380 threats. 446 00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:04,380 Wow. 447 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:10,840 You just, like, changed multiple people's entire lives with violence. 448 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Congratulations. 449 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:20,600 It was a clearly premeditated attack that Shelley later recalled in great detail. 450 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:26,560 Being quite emboldened, Shelley published how to destroy a killing center. 451 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,560 Oh my God. 452 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,860 Hyphen. 453 00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:35,240 If you're just an old grandma who can't get a fire started in her fireplace. 454 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120 I'm just rapid blinking. 455 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,120 But you. 456 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,120 What? 457 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Published on the army of God website, which featured bizarrely detailed instructions 458 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:57,640 for how to proceed should one find themselves similarly motivated in their own local community 459 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:08,800 and wishing to avoid prosecution, you know, for by your bombing, a building. 460 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,800 It's literal terrorism. 461 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,800 Like, what? 462 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,520 I'm glad you said that. 463 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,600 Under God's name, well, I guess that happens. 464 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,040 I mean, I know that happens. 465 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,040 It's just like. 466 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,040 Cassie. 467 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,040 Hmm. 468 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:26,960 Her how to guide remains on the army of God website. 469 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,480 I didn't pay it a visit, but I can confirm. 470 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:41,200 The army of God is a US-based Christian terrorist organization as designated by the US government. 471 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:49,520 Words from the US Department of Justice that I would both eagerly and staunchly stand behind. 472 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,360 How was their website still up? 473 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:58,600 Like I understand free speech, but like that's you're literally instructing people on how 474 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,440 to commit terrorism. 475 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,600 Yeah, that's fucked up. 476 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,000 Domestic terrorism. 477 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,080 Is it on the dark web or is it just on the regular internet? 478 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,720 It's on the regular internet. 479 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,160 So I'm like, okay, dark web, whatever. 480 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,840 There's a bunch of shit on there. 481 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,320 I don't understand it. 482 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,320 But yeah. 483 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,160 I don't want to. 484 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:26,680 But this is just something that any person could come across, access. 485 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:35,440 So on August 19th of 1993, Dr. Tiller was in his car preparing to drive home at the end 486 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,040 of his workday at the clinic. 487 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,040 Shelley lay in wait and fired upon him several times. 488 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:50,240 And though he was indeed shot in both arms, he not only survived his injuries, but returned 489 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,720 to his practice the actual ass next day. 490 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,520 The next day? 491 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,480 Wow. 492 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:04,520 I cannot even imagine how scary and traumatizing that was to come back the next day. 493 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,120 Like to go back at all. 494 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,320 Yeah. 495 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:19,440 And while Shelley was really busy being significantly less successful at anything, the next day, good. 496 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:26,200 Though Shelley managed to evade arrest in Wichita initially, she was arrested in Oklahoma 497 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,160 as she was returning her rental car. 498 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,880 That same year, Shelley's daughter, Angela, was said to have written a death threat to another 499 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,880 abortion provider in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 500 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:38,880 Aww. 501 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:46,240 Though it was Shelley that would at least attempt to take credit for the crime. 502 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:52,240 Shelley's husband, David, would turn on the news the next day after being instructed 503 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:59,520 by a friend, only to find that his wife appeared to be on the news and was being arrested. 504 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,360 Did he like have any idea about any of this? 505 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,360 Nope. 506 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,560 Oh my God. 507 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,600 Though it couldn't have been easy to tell that it was his wife, since police had wrapped 508 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:19,080 her in, I've heard either a towel or in paper towels. 509 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,880 Depending on the source. 510 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,520 They wrapped her up to avoid news cameras identifying her. 511 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:27,680 Oh, okay. 512 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,120 I was just like, why? 513 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,120 I don't get it. 514 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,120 Yeah, she went. 515 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,560 She didn't make any sense to me either. 516 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,960 I was like, what in the actual fuck are you talking about? 517 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,840 I hope it was paper towels. 518 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:39,840 I really do too. 519 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,480 I hope she was walking out of there looking like bandage man. 520 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:43,480 Yeah. 521 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:49,600 At the time of her arrest, he had reportedly been completely unaware of her plans. 522 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:56,200 He has remarkably condescending quote that would normally infuriate me. 523 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,680 But for Shelley, all at its light. 524 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,120 Furthermore, he apparently did not share her radical beliefs. 525 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,520 That's why I'm going to let it slide. 526 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,440 That's at least according to comments provided following her crime. 527 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,360 He basically said, um, I don't know. 528 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,480 This is Shelley's little hobby. 529 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,280 I don't partake. 530 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,160 I'm busy in the garage. 531 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,960 I'm busy just being a normal ass person. 532 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,360 Oh my gosh. 533 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:36,360 If you don't have any awareness of what your wife is doing and it's something like that's 534 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,360 that big. 535 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,360 Yeah. 536 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,440 I wanted to be fair. 537 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:49,440 Any woman can fly halfway across the country and do something completely different than 538 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,960 what she's telling her husband she's doing. 539 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,280 Yeah, I guess that's true. 540 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:01,120 In Shelley's initial statements, she tried to claim that she had not intended to kill 541 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,120 Dr. Tiller. 542 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,280 I was just shooting at him a little bit. 543 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,280 Yeah. 544 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,400 But crazy is as crazy does. 545 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,920 Apparently. 546 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,080 Because she quickly changed her story. 547 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,680 This did not go unnoticed through the course of her trial. 548 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,120 Imagine that. 549 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,960 The jury deliberated for one hour. 550 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,280 We're sentencing her to 11 years behind bars. 551 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,600 Damn. 552 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,440 One hour is not a lot. 553 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,440 Nope. 554 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,360 It's not usually a good thing when the jury comes back quickly. 555 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,440 I mean, for the defendant. 556 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:40,640 Yeah. 557 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,040 What did she change her story to? 558 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:52,920 Oh, just to the actual truth where she is truly evil and thinks that she has 559 00:35:52,920 --> 00:36:02,200 been called by God to perpetrate unspeakable violence on other people in this world in order 560 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:08,240 to prevent any unborn baby from being harmed. 561 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:12,040 Was she trying to do the whole insanity thing? 562 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,720 Because that sounds a thing. 563 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,480 She does sound insane. 564 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,880 Not in the legal sense, but Angela was charged for threatening the murder. 565 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:31,440 She was the doctor in Wisconsin in 1997 and she was sentenced to 46 months. 566 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,720 Though Shelley had tried to take the blame for her daughter, Angela's prints were on the 567 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:37,720 letter. 568 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:43,720 Oh, well, so you can't get away from that, can you? 569 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:44,720 No. 570 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,240 Fingerprints are pretty solid. 571 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:53,240 She would later be released in 2001 after completing her sentence. 572 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:54,240 Angela. 573 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:55,240 Angela. 574 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:56,240 Yeah, just clarify. 575 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,240 How old was she? 576 00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,680 She was born in 1974. 577 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,320 So right after the passage of Roe v. Wade, just crazy. 578 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,200 So by 1997, that would make her, what, like, 23? 579 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,080 Something like that, okay. 580 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,480 Still too young to be threatening people. 581 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,480 Oh, yeah. 582 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,520 There is really not an acceptable age for that. 583 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,520 No. 584 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Not a fan. 585 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,320 But Shelley's legal issues weren't entirely over. 586 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:34,640 In 1995, Shelley was sentenced to 20 years for federal crimes connected to various clinic 587 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,640 bombings. 588 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,040 Wow. 589 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:43,000 She was to serve the 11-year sentence for attempted murder prior to the additional 590 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,840 sentence of 20 years. 591 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:46,840 That's awesome. 592 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:54,600 Additionally, she was ordered to pay restitution to some of the clinics impacted by the attacks. 593 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,600 Damn. 594 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:56,600 Yeah. 595 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:03,240 And I don't know that they ever really saw any of that money, but it's the principle of 596 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:04,240 the thing. 597 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:05,240 It really is. 598 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:06,240 I agree. 599 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,880 You have to give your money to the people that you hate the most. 600 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:10,880 Yeah. 601 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:17,320 People can have a lot of differing opinions and feelings about abortion. 602 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,040 We don't have to agree on that issue. 603 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:26,040 If we don't, then you're wrong, but we don't have to agree. 604 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:36,320 But Shelley Shannon is a heinous, violent, terrorist, as is Scott Roder. 605 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:42,880 There are no two ways about it, but that's not the end of our story, unfortunately. 606 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,320 But you could probably guess that since I just introduced another character to this story. 607 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,320 Yeah. 608 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,880 Plot twist. 609 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,360 Spoiler alert, we hate him. 610 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,360 Okay. 611 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,360 I figured. 612 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:56,360 Sorry. 613 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,000 I tried to introduce you guys to nicer people, but they just don't commit as many murders. 614 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,000 Yeah. 615 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,560 Weird how that happens. 616 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:14,440 In May 31st, 2009, at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Wichita, Dr. Tiller was assassinated 617 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,360 by Scott Roder. 618 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:23,920 He was shot in the head as he was performing service as an usher, just like any other Sunday. 619 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:24,920 What? 620 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:34,520 So this poor man was literally at church working for the church and was killed. 621 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,920 By someone in a church. 622 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:37,920 Wow. 623 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,120 By someone motivated. 624 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,080 By someone who claimed to be religious themselves. 625 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,520 Claimed to do this as a calling from God. 626 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,440 Like what if fucking slap in the face to God if you believe in him? 627 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,840 Like, geez. 628 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:56,840 Mm-hmm. 629 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,400 Scott Roder showed no remorse. 630 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,920 In his case, the jury was equally decisive. 631 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,400 He was convicted, then sentenced to life in prison. 632 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,960 He will not be eligible for parole until he has served 25 years. 633 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:26,320 Shelly was released in 2018 after serving 25 of the 31 years to which she was sentenced. 634 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,320 Not enough. 635 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:28,320 No. 636 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:34,640 Though she was released with the stipulation of a three-year monitored release, she has 637 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,520 continued to show no remorse for her actions. 638 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:46,760 She has also reportedly kept in touch with army of God members and other extremists through 639 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,600 both of her sentences. 640 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:57,240 The American Jewish Congress stated in a press release that Tiller's murder, quote, 641 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:03,760 "Exemplifies criminal andarchy, not legitimate protest." 642 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:10,000 Dr. Tiller's murder was not just a terrible crime against an individual. 643 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,080 It was also a crime against our democracy. 644 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,640 Murder is not a debating technique. 645 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:25,800 It is never and must never be an accepted way of advancing a point of view. 646 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:32,520 The president of the National Council of Jewish Women, Nancy Ratzin, stated, 647 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:40,320 "Dr. Tiller devoted his life to ensuring that women did indeed have choices, when confronted 648 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:46,280 with an unintended or untenable pregnancy. 649 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:54,640 His murder, his assassination, is intended to terrorize not only all involved with providing 650 00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:01,160 abortions, but anyone even remotely associated with abortion rights." 651 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,320 It's really scary. 652 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:12,920 Years later, clinic staff that have relocated and begun working elsewhere have continued 653 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:22,320 to be harassed because they are known to have worked with Dr. Tiller and people that are 654 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,360 members of Army of God or other anti-abortion groups. 655 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,360 Track them down. 656 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:35,080 Like how do you think that that's going to get people on your side? 657 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:42,400 You can't possibly believe that that is a means to any reasonable end. 658 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,400 And yet, somehow they do. 659 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:51,200 I'm going to tell you the year that this article was published. 660 00:42:51,200 --> 00:43:00,560 In August of this year, a 20-year-old man ostensibly seeking a job at a Kansas abortion clinic 661 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:10,120 was arrested after he told clinic staff his backpack contained an explosive device and knives, 662 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,920 according to Wichita Police. 663 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,080 Wow, 2015. 664 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:24,840 The explosive device was several fireworks that the suspect put together, according to authorities. 665 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:31,280 The incident occurred at South Wind Women's Center, which is in the same facility that Tiller 666 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,480 once occupied. 667 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:42,800 Julie Berkhardt, who used to work for Tiller, now runs a foundation that opened South Wind. 668 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:49,560 In August, she spoke about how his killing prompted the clinic to increase security. 669 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:55,160 She also spoke of the fear she lives with and said the August incident could have been much 670 00:43:55,160 --> 00:44:00,040 worse than a man with some fireworks. 671 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:07,480 She said, quote, "I'm very concerned that someone would come in the building with weapons. 672 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,920 He was carrying knives and explosives. 673 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:17,640 This really illustrates to me that the security protocols that we have in place work." 674 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,720 Thank goodness. 675 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,440 So they caught him at the security? 676 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,800 Or yes, security identified that. 677 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:32,520 And on the flip side, a little bit of commentary from well the flip side. 678 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,240 The Reverend Donald Spitz, real name. 679 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:42,400 An anti-abortion activist who stayed in contact with Shannon. 680 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:50,120 Shelly Shannon said abortion rights activists should not be worried about Shannon's release. 681 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,160 I don't think she'll be doing anything violent. 682 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,160 Okay. 683 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:02,760 He is the leader of pro-life Virginia and sponsor of the Army of God website. 684 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:08,200 He said, "Of course, no one knows, but I'd be very surprised." 685 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,040 I do not trust his opinion. 686 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,040 Nope. 687 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,040 Don't worry. 688 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,040 She's fine. 689 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,040 She's fine. 690 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,040 She's not going to do anything. 691 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,040 No. 692 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:22,360 She probably won't do anything because she's already published her manifesto for violence. 693 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,360 She's doing. 694 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,360 Yeah. 695 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:32,160 He said he talked to Shannon and described her as upbeat about her release, but said he 696 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,840 didn't know Shannon's plans. 697 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,960 I'm sure she was upbeat about her release, but I don't believe for a second that you don't 698 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,000 know her plans. 699 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,000 Yeah. 700 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,160 Why are you talking then? 701 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,000 How can you be so sure that she's not going to be doing anything violent, but also you 702 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,240 don't know what any of her plans are? 703 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,360 And why are you talking about plans? 704 00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,120 Like, if you're saying the word plans, it makes me think there's a plan. 705 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,120 You know, stands to reason. 706 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,120 Yeah. 707 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,440 Because normally, if it was me visiting you in prison and you were getting out, I would be 708 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,840 so Caitlin, what are your plans for like getting a job? 709 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,320 Like, where are you going to live? 710 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:19,000 You would know her plans in that regard, but you just don't know any plans. 711 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,560 You don't know anything about any plans. 712 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:22,560 Okay. 713 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,320 Sounds super believable. 714 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,120 And not at all anything to be concerned about. 715 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:37,480 Obviously, there's been a little bit of time that has passed and doesn't seem like there 716 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:44,640 has been anything violent that has occurred at least at Shelley's hands. 717 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:53,760 But you know, Shelley really doesn't have to create any of the chaos or violence with her 718 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,080 own hands anymore. 719 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:05,920 If you visit justice.gov, I've included the specific link in our pace bin. 720 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:16,240 Hopefully, it'll actually allow me to publish it where there are numerous recent violent 721 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:27,280 encounters that are summarized cases of violence and other various types of attacks, whether, 722 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:35,560 you know, verbal, whatever that may be against reproductive healthcare providers and their 723 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,560 staff. 724 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,560 Don't worry. 725 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,760 Right up at the top, there are several from 2023. 726 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,560 No, I don't want any. 727 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,560 Yeah. 728 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:54,200 I'm sure again, you don't have to agree that they are fighting a senseless battle at all. 729 00:47:54,200 --> 00:48:05,720 I know there are plenty of people that don't agree, but surely most people can understand. 730 00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:18,320 They can see that multiple assassination attempts and one of which, not an attempt, this was successful. 731 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:24,120 He was murdered in a goddamn church. 732 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,960 Surely we can agree that that is wrong. 733 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,000 Just like any violence is why you don't need to do that. 734 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,680 I just, there are official ways that you can go about getting your laws and whatever the 735 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,840 fuck you want, voted on. 736 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,240 Like you said, it's like a threat to democracy. 737 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:44,840 It really is. 738 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:52,840 One of the most upsetting things about researching this was realizing how people that were involved 739 00:48:52,840 --> 00:49:04,880 in these protests and specifically a lot of the non-violent tactics that were utilized. 740 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:13,840 It was things like shutting down the freeways or they used a lot of non-violent tactics that 741 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,560 Black Lives Matter protest they've been condemned for. 742 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,520 Yeah, well of course. 743 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:21,520 Yeah. 744 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,880 The completely other thing that they're fighting for that they don't agree with. 745 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:27,880 Right. 746 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,160 That's irrational. 747 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,480 When I realized that I was like, and it goes back further than that. 748 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:41,440 It wasn't the Karen's outside plan parenthood that thought of the sitting in the middle of 749 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:48,360 the freeway or all of these various non-violent protest strategies. 750 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,200 It goes back to the civil rights movement. 751 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:52,200 Yeah. 752 00:49:52,200 --> 00:50:01,520 But it was so interesting to me to think about how different the languages in those conversations. 753 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,760 The headline is that everyone fucking sucks. 754 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:08,760 Not everyone. 755 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,760 A lot of people. 756 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:11,760 A lot of people. 757 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:12,760 Yeah. 758 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:13,760 I don't know Cassie. 759 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:14,760 Not everyone sucks. 760 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,480 But a lot of people do. 761 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,280 You know what doesn't suck? 762 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:20,280 What? 763 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,120 Well, tarot doesn't suck to us. 764 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,640 My God. 765 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,800 Nobody better write us an email saying tarot sucks. 766 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,520 If it sucks, you know, there's an off button. 767 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:34,520 Yeah. 768 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,360 So suck it and you suck it. 769 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,800 And if you're pushing the off button, that means you push the on button, which means you 770 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:41,800 gave us a download. 771 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:42,800 Thank you. 772 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,640 Thank you. 773 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,320 So we also are going to have a little Patreon bonus to accompany this episode because 774 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,920 something really frickin bizarre happened to us last night. 775 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,160 Yeah. 776 00:50:55,160 --> 00:51:00,760 So I was texting Caitlin about this topic I was working on and it was a topic that you're 777 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,480 not supposed to talk about. 778 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:03,680 It's not the main one. 779 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,240 Everyone knows it's a different one. 780 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:06,240 Imagine that. 781 00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:07,240 Yeah. 782 00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:10,880 So I texted her and I was like, "Haha, I'm working on this topic that you're not supposed 783 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:11,880 to talk about. 784 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,280 Hope I don't have any technological problems." 785 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,080 And like three minutes later. 786 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,800 It just crashes and is like, you know, the error message. 787 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,200 Honestly, it's unreal. 788 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,280 And then it happens again. 789 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,280 Every time I try to copy and paste and I was trying to copy and paste someone's comment 790 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,440 saying it's like a warning that this is real. 791 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:44,520 Almost like you couldn't drill into that head with a bit. 792 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,720 So if this wasn't enough, I... 793 00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:50,720 So I screen-shoted that to Caitlin and sent it to her. 794 00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:57,280 And then she sees this little tiny comment that someone had made that had absolutely nothing 795 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,200 to do with what I was talking about, like totally nothing to do with it. 796 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,160 And she just assumed like that was my topic, right? 797 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:05,160 Mm-hmm. 798 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,160 Yeah. 799 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,400 And so she Googles it and she's like, "Are you fucking kidding me? 800 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,400 This is a fertility god." 801 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,520 And I am working on this story that's, you know, kind of about fertility. 802 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:16,520 And... 803 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:17,520 Yeah. 804 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,320 So I was like, "Okay, is this a sign that I need to just drop this other topic for now and 805 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,840 just research this fertility god?" 806 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:25,840 Yeah. 807 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,680 A little and do a little bonus on it for Patreon. 808 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:30,680 So that's what I did. 809 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,920 I dropped my entire episode and worked on a bonus. 810 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,880 Well, you know, as one does sometimes. 811 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:43,320 But it's really interesting what I found. 812 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:44,320 Oh, boy. 813 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,320 Yeah. 814 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,320 I have about, I think, two and a half pages. 815 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:48,960 Oh, boy. 816 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:50,640 It's really cool. 817 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,280 A lot of it really directly relates, I feel like, to Caitlin. 818 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,920 So, uh, gray in a really good way, not bad. 819 00:52:58,920 --> 00:52:59,920 Oh, okay. 820 00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:04,920 Well, that whole thing was positive because you were kind of questioning your topic. 821 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,240 And I think that was just a sign like that you were doing the right thing. 822 00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:09,240 Yeah. 823 00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,240 I was. 824 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:15,240 I feel like this was a really tough one just because I know that abortion specifically 825 00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:22,680 is a very controversial topic, but we're not really talking about abortion. 826 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,080 I mean, I did. 827 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,880 And I have a lot of thoughts and feelings. 828 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,080 And I did my best to reign the moon. 829 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:36,520 But, um, you know, this is about something far more significant than that. 830 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,880 It's just, you know, violence that doesn't have anything to do with, you know, what's 831 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,520 now become a political talking point. 832 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:45,520 Yeah. 833 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,240 You're an arsonist. 834 00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:53,440 You're an attempted murder, arrests or an actual murderer. 835 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:54,440 Yeah. 836 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,440 I just got like this thing in my head, like murder to protest murder. 837 00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:59,440 Yeah. 838 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,400 How does that make sense? 839 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,600 Make it make sense. 840 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,080 I don't think it's murder personally, but like coming from their standpoint. 841 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:11,840 But if you believe that it's murder and act like it's murder, yeah. 842 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:16,640 I just, I, yeah, just going to use their own goddamn slogan against them. 843 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,880 Anyway, so Patreon's going to get a really cool bonus. 844 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,480 And I think Caitlin's going to love it. 845 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,320 I'm excited to tell her about it. 846 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:25,320 Yeah. 847 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:26,720 Yay. 848 00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:35,040 As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows. 849 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,920 So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week. 850 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:43,400 Let's show them some love you can find their info in our show notes. 851 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,840 Hey creepy people. 852 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:53,440 It's Gemma from I think my fridge is haunted, a very creepy podcast for very creepy people. 853 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,560 We tell all kinds of weird stories from the paranormal to aliens, true crime and history. 854 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,520 But what makes us different from all those other podcasts talking about this stuff? 855 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,280 Well, that's a good question. 856 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,600 And the answer is simple. 857 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,880 We have Australian accents. 858 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,960 Join me in my secret new co-host as we launch season six this August on Apple podcasts, 859 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,600 Spotify, Podbean and all good podcast platforms. 860 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,840 Until then, be creepy. 861 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,360 But don't be a creep. 862 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,720 You guys were back. 863 00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:30,320 And don't worry, we did get more wine. 864 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,760 Well, of course. 865 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,960 I have shuffled. 866 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:37,960 I'm going to do it. 867 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,960 And then I can't let's go to shuffle and pull. 868 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,960 What was that? 869 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:45,960 Wow. 870 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,520 You guys, I've been having a lot of problems with my hands. 871 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,120 I cut my ring finger. 872 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,120 You can't really see that with the light. 873 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,120 It's like mini cards. 874 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,800 Oh, Caitlin. 875 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,280 I can't reach any of them. 876 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,280 Struggle bus, passenger number one. 877 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,520 If it wasn't 20 cards that fell away, could he use that? 878 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:08,520 I know. 879 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:09,520 Yeah. 880 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,960 Well, I feel like there's chaotic energy in here. 881 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,280 I was trying to cleanse it. 882 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,120 Okay, there we go. 883 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:20,960 We're feeling a little better. 884 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,200 We also just came off of an interview with some creepy, creepy haps. 885 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:27,800 Oh, interesting. 886 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,000 The star. 887 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,880 It's a very positive card. 888 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,000 It is, which seems a little odd, but I'm going to roll with it. 889 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,720 I love getting positive cards after a truly horrific story. 890 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:43,840 I feel like this was the doctor. 891 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,640 I should look up what kind of bird that is. 892 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:47,640 Yes. 893 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,640 Do that. 894 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:49,640 Okay. 895 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:59,320 Keywords are happiness, hope, light at the end of the tunnel and good fortune. 896 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:06,680 This lovely card often portrays a nude female figure in or beside a pool of water. 897 00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:12,920 In some decks, she pours water from two jugs or chalices. 898 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:19,280 In the writer wait Smith deck, she pours the contents of one picture into a stream and 899 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:26,560 the other one onto the ground, showing the connection between two feminine elements, 900 00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,400 water and earth. 901 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:34,560 They are shine in the background, sometimes in a circle or a halo-like formation around 902 00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:35,720 her. 903 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,320 The naked woman represents truth and purity. 904 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,160 The jugs contain the waters of life. 905 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,160 Yeah, it's a very feminine card from what I remember. 906 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:47,160 We've read it a lot. 907 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:48,160 Wow. 908 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,720 And I've read it very recently. 909 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:55,200 We see shooting stars as Harp and Jersey of Good Luck. 910 00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,640 We wish upon a star for the star is a universal symbol of hope. 911 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:07,120 Getting this card is like looking up at the bright starry sky on a clear night and seeing 912 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,720 all the magnificence of the universe. 913 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:18,160 This is a time of fulfillment, good fortune, creative inspiration and spiritual growth. 914 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:24,040 When you receive help from unseen forces and wishes come true. 915 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:30,120 The star signals an end to problems and the start of a new, happier phase of life. 916 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,960 I fucking hope so. 917 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,680 I think of it as the light at the end of the tunnel card. 918 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,720 Oh my god. 919 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,920 Like people who have had a near death experience and they see the light. 920 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,320 Or people that have been through a lot of shit. 921 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:47,320 Yeah. 922 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:53,760 Well, it's just interesting to me too because it talks about pouring the contents of one 923 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,360 picture into a stream and the other one onto the ground. 924 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:04,480 And immediately I had this flash of like that old saying throwing the baby out with the 925 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,440 bath water. 926 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:12,560 Which seems weird. 927 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:22,840 But I think there's, it just sort of speaks to, there's a way of handling disagreements. 928 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:29,920 I think, you know, kind of some of those quotations from the Jewish women leagues. 929 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:31,320 They really summarized. 930 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:37,160 I think probably what a lot of us would wish to say so eloquently. 931 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,160 Yeah. 932 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,200 You've been preparing for this time and now you've arrived. 933 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:49,560 The star shows you're in harmony with your life purpose using your gifts beneficially. 934 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:57,480 It signifies inspiration, intuition, inner wisdom, and joy. 935 00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:04,520 In a reading about money, the star signals an improvement in your financial position. 936 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:09,320 Help comes from both the invisible world and the material one. 937 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:10,320 Remain hopeful. 938 01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,560 Your dreams can be achieved. 939 01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:17,400 If the reading is about your job, you may be moving into the spotlight. 940 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:23,320 Being recognition for your efforts, you're the star, and it's your turn to shine. 941 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:29,000 You feel good about yourself and confident in your place in the universe. 942 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,440 Success lies just around the corner. 943 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:38,440 In a reading about love, this card represents a bright, beautiful relationship that inspires 944 01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,840 you and brings you joy. 945 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:45,240 The wish you made has or will soon come true. 946 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:46,240 Wow. 947 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,840 I just think it's an overall positive card. 948 01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:50,840 It is. 949 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,080 You can't let the evil people win. 950 01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:54,080 No. 951 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:55,080 Just keep trucking on. 952 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,080 Yeah. 953 01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,080 Things will get better, hopefully. 954 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:04,480 Even though it's still happening in 2023. 955 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,960 Well, it's a morning dove. 956 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:10,560 A morning dove. 957 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:16,200 Interesting because you know, morning MOUR and it is spelled morning. 958 01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:17,200 In that. 959 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:18,200 Wow. 960 01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:19,200 Yeah. 961 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:20,200 Okay. 962 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,600 So that's interesting that I immediately just like, you're strong into it. 963 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:29,120 Like Doctor the God assassinated or like anyone else who lost their life or went through 964 01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:33,440 a lot of pain because of these horrible people. 965 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:34,440 Wow. 966 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:35,440 Yeah. 967 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:36,440 Yeah. 968 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,040 Just should I read this? 969 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,040 Yeah. 970 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:40,040 Why not? 971 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,040 I'll try. 972 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:42,040 Okay. 973 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:54,040 I'm sorry. 974 01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,040 I said that right. 975 01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,040 You do. 976 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,640 Filled with trepidation and fear, he flew towards the bright beacon above the horizon. 977 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:07,120 Doves wings kept him aloft in the daylight through forest, valley and wasteland, heading 978 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,480 ever toward the morning star, still shining in the distance. 979 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:17,480 His dove journeyed, his heart lightened and felt echoes of past pilgrims. 980 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:22,560 His path intertwined with those of other travelers. 981 01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,360 He left his fear behind. 982 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:30,480 He wheeled joyously in the sky and skimmed above the clouds, flying higher than he had any 983 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,360 right to. 984 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,080 He tested the boundaries of himself and the world he inhabited. 985 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:37,080 Wow. 986 01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:38,080 That's interesting. 987 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:39,080 Yeah. 988 01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,600 He tested the boundaries of the world he inhabited. 989 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,600 Okay. 990 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:50,400 A part of him hoped that he'd never reached that star, not wanting to journey to the end. 991 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,600 The rest of him wondered what would happen if he got there. 992 01:02:54,600 --> 01:03:06,120 I'm wondering if you remember this fact about him, which was that he was a flight surgeon. 993 01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:07,120 Really? 994 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:08,120 Wow. 995 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,720 I did not know that. 996 01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:11,720 Yeah. 997 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:12,960 That's crazy. 998 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,960 I was right. 999 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,280 I mean, very representative. 1000 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,520 I mean, the symbolism seems... 1001 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:21,760 Wow. 1002 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:22,760 Maybe I'm crazy, but... 1003 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,560 No, I don't seem too pretty clear. 1004 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:25,560 You're crazy. 1005 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:27,560 What number is this? 1006 01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:28,560 17. 1007 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:29,560 Yes. 1008 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,320 I don't know if that has any significance? 1009 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:39,840 I can't think of anything specific that resonates with that, but... 1010 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:40,840 I'm going to check. 1011 01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:42,240 That was just really cool. 1012 01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:43,840 That was a good one. 1013 01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:44,840 That was what I wanted. 1014 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,080 That was the energy I put into the car. 1015 01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:48,080 Yeah. 1016 01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:49,080 I mean, that was... 1017 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:54,760 It felt more positive than that story felt like it had a right to. 1018 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:55,760 Yeah. 1019 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,600 So, they just can't win. 1020 01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:58,600 They can't do it. 1021 01:03:58,600 --> 01:03:59,600 No. 1022 01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:00,600 We have to be positive. 1023 01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:01,600 Okay. 1024 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,400 Creepy ass day. 1025 01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:13,400 [Music] 1026 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:39,080 [Music] 1027 01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:43,400 He wheeled jealousy in the sky and skimmed above the clouds. 1028 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:44,400 I'm sorry. 1029 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:45,400 I read that wrong again. 1030 01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:46,400 He wheeled jealousy. 1031 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:47,400 Joyously? 1032 01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:48,400 Yeah. 1033 01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:49,400 What are kissing jealous? 1034 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:50,400 I don't know. 1035 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:51,400 Okay. 1036 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:52,400 Re-do. 1037 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:53,400 Cause you wish you could fly. 1038 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:54,400 I know. 1039 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:55,400 It's true. 1040 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:56,400 Yeah. 1041 01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:57,400 Yeah. 1042 01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:07,400 [Music] pnwhauntsandhomicides.com