1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,080 In this case, our deep dive is motivated by the fact that if you google serial killer 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,840 with a conscience, you're likely to return a handful of results. 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:25,820 Most of them are far more widely known than this guy, but Wayne Adam Ford may be returned 4 00:00:25,820 --> 00:00:32,820 as one of a number of potential results. 5 00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:44,380 Hi Cassie. 6 00:00:44,380 --> 00:00:46,020 Hi Caitlyn. 7 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:47,700 Hello creepy people. 8 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:50,700 Hello! 9 00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:52,180 Hellooooooo! 10 00:00:52,180 --> 00:00:53,180 Oh gosh, you really hung on there. 11 00:00:53,180 --> 00:00:56,180 I made it a little ghosty. 12 00:00:56,180 --> 00:00:59,340 You're just like gearing up for spooky season. 13 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:00,340 It's coming. 14 00:01:00,340 --> 00:01:07,660 It's here in my heart all the time, but you know, if you're new to our creepy corner of 15 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:14,980 the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides where we chat about true crime paranormal and 16 00:01:14,980 --> 00:01:22,660 all things creepy, spooky, oogie, sometimes icky in the Pacific Northwest. 17 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:23,660 Most of the time with you? 18 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:24,660 Primarily. 19 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:25,660 Case, it's icky. 20 00:01:25,660 --> 00:01:27,060 icky, yeah. 21 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:32,620 We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit deeper insight 22 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:34,220 into our topic. 23 00:01:34,220 --> 00:01:41,620 So make sure to stick around if you're into tarot and all things kind of, whichy and cool 24 00:01:41,620 --> 00:01:45,500 and fun and intuitive and artistic. 25 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:47,260 Ooh, look at you. 26 00:01:47,260 --> 00:01:48,260 I don't know. 27 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:51,860 So what do we have for morning announcements today Caitlin? 28 00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:55,460 Ooh, morning announcements. 29 00:01:55,460 --> 00:02:00,220 We actually have a live coming up as you're listening to this. 30 00:02:00,220 --> 00:02:07,740 If you're listening to it on the date that it releases, we have a live for our Patreon 31 00:02:07,740 --> 00:02:11,980 subscribers this Saturday. 32 00:02:11,980 --> 00:02:14,580 Oh my gosh, it's going to be so much fun. 33 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:16,260 I'm super excited. 34 00:02:16,260 --> 00:02:18,660 It's the first one like I'm kind of doing. 35 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:19,660 Yeah. 36 00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:20,660 So I think you did the other two. 37 00:02:20,660 --> 00:02:22,860 Do we only have two or three? 38 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:23,860 I can't remember. 39 00:02:23,860 --> 00:02:26,700 I literally, wow. 40 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:28,820 Yeah, couldn't tell you. 41 00:02:28,820 --> 00:02:34,060 I'm super excited because here's the thing you guys with the lives. 42 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:39,140 That's the one time where sometimes we both do know the topic. 43 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:40,140 Mm-hmm. 44 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:41,140 Yeah. 45 00:02:41,140 --> 00:02:45,820 Cassie didn't know necessarily everything that I was going to talk about in the two lives, 46 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:49,100 at least that I'm thinking of. 47 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:52,580 And I won't know everything that she's going to talk about, but I know the topic and I'm 48 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:55,820 fucking psych. 49 00:02:55,820 --> 00:03:04,020 And of course, I have some genre specific wares for the live. 50 00:03:04,020 --> 00:03:06,020 Let me know if you want to know what you guys have. 51 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:07,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 52 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:08,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 53 00:03:08,020 --> 00:03:09,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 54 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:10,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 55 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:11,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 56 00:03:11,020 --> 00:03:12,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 57 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:13,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 58 00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:14,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 59 00:03:14,020 --> 00:03:15,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 60 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:16,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 61 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:17,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 62 00:03:17,020 --> 00:03:18,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 63 00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:19,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 64 00:03:19,020 --> 00:03:20,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 65 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:21,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 66 00:03:21,020 --> 00:03:22,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 67 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:23,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 68 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:24,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 69 00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:34,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 70 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:36,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 71 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:37,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 72 00:03:37,020 --> 00:03:38,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 73 00:03:38,020 --> 00:03:39,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 74 00:03:39,020 --> 00:03:40,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 75 00:03:40,020 --> 00:03:41,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 76 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:42,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 77 00:03:42,020 --> 00:03:43,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 78 00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:44,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 79 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:45,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 80 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:46,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 81 00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:47,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 82 00:03:47,020 --> 00:03:48,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 83 00:03:48,020 --> 00:03:49,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 84 00:03:49,020 --> 00:03:50,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 85 00:03:50,020 --> 00:03:51,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 86 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:52,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 87 00:03:52,020 --> 00:03:53,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 88 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:54,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 89 00:03:54,020 --> 00:03:55,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 90 00:03:55,020 --> 00:03:56,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 91 00:03:56,020 --> 00:03:57,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 92 00:03:57,020 --> 00:03:58,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 93 00:03:58,020 --> 00:03:59,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 94 00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:00,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 95 00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:01,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 96 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:02,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 97 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:03,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 98 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:04,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 99 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:05,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 100 00:04:05,020 --> 00:04:06,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 101 00:04:06,020 --> 00:04:07,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 102 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:08,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 103 00:04:08,020 --> 00:04:09,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 104 00:04:09,020 --> 00:04:10,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 105 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:11,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 106 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:12,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 107 00:04:12,020 --> 00:04:13,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 108 00:04:13,020 --> 00:04:14,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 109 00:04:14,020 --> 00:04:15,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 110 00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:16,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 111 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:17,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 112 00:04:17,020 --> 00:04:18,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 113 00:04:18,020 --> 00:04:19,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 114 00:04:19,020 --> 00:04:20,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 115 00:04:20,020 --> 00:04:21,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 116 00:04:21,020 --> 00:04:22,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 117 00:04:22,020 --> 00:04:23,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 118 00:04:23,020 --> 00:04:24,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 119 00:04:24,020 --> 00:04:25,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 120 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:26,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 121 00:04:26,020 --> 00:04:27,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 122 00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:28,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 123 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:29,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 124 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:30,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 125 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:31,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 126 00:04:31,020 --> 00:04:32,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 127 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:33,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 128 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:34,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 129 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:35,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 130 00:04:35,020 --> 00:04:36,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 131 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:37,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 132 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:38,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 133 00:04:38,020 --> 00:04:39,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 134 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:40,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 135 00:04:40,020 --> 00:04:41,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 136 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:42,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 137 00:04:42,020 --> 00:04:43,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 138 00:04:43,020 --> 00:04:44,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 139 00:04:44,020 --> 00:04:45,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 140 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:46,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 141 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:47,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 142 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:48,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 143 00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:49,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 144 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:50,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 145 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:51,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 146 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:52,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 147 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:53,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 148 00:04:53,020 --> 00:04:54,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 149 00:04:54,020 --> 00:04:55,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 150 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:56,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 151 00:04:56,020 --> 00:04:57,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 152 00:04:57,020 --> 00:04:58,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 153 00:04:58,020 --> 00:04:59,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 154 00:04:59,020 --> 00:05:00,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 155 00:05:00,020 --> 00:05:01,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 156 00:05:01,020 --> 00:05:02,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 157 00:05:02,020 --> 00:05:03,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 158 00:05:03,020 --> 00:05:04,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 159 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:05,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 160 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:06,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 161 00:05:06,020 --> 00:05:07,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 162 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:08,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 163 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:09,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 164 00:05:09,020 --> 00:05:10,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 165 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:11,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 166 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:12,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 167 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:13,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 168 00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:15,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 169 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:16,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 170 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:17,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 171 00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:18,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 172 00:05:18,020 --> 00:05:19,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 173 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:20,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 174 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:21,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 175 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:22,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 176 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:23,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 177 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:24,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 178 00:05:24,020 --> 00:05:25,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 179 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:26,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 180 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:27,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 181 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:28,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 182 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:29,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 183 00:05:29,020 --> 00:05:30,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 184 00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:31,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 185 00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:32,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 186 00:05:32,020 --> 00:05:33,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 187 00:05:33,020 --> 00:05:34,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 188 00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:36,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 189 00:05:36,020 --> 00:05:37,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 190 00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:38,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 191 00:05:38,020 --> 00:05:39,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 192 00:05:39,020 --> 00:05:40,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 193 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:41,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 194 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:42,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 195 00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:43,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 196 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:44,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 197 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:45,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 198 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:46,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 199 00:05:46,020 --> 00:05:47,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 200 00:05:47,020 --> 00:05:48,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 201 00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:49,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 202 00:05:49,020 --> 00:05:50,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 203 00:05:50,020 --> 00:05:51,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 204 00:05:51,020 --> 00:05:52,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 205 00:05:52,020 --> 00:05:53,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 206 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:54,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 207 00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:55,020 I'm going to talk about the live. 208 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:59,020 I'm still working on finalizing some spoiler alert. 209 00:05:59,020 --> 00:06:01,020 There's going to be a part two to this. 210 00:06:01,020 --> 00:06:05,020 Still working on finalizing part of part two. 211 00:06:05,020 --> 00:06:07,020 Part of part two. 212 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:11,020 I don't think that my angle is going to be trying to convince you 213 00:06:11,020 --> 00:06:14,020 that this guy has a conscience. 214 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:17,020 I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. 215 00:06:17,020 --> 00:06:19,020 But I think it's an interesting aspect 216 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:23,020 that a lot of the coverage has sort of glombed onto. 217 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:25,020 And we'll get to that. 218 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:27,020 But I think based on that alone, 219 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:29,020 his background might be worth examining. 220 00:06:29,020 --> 00:06:35,020 If you disagree, then you're just going to be ever so slightly short 221 00:06:35,020 --> 00:06:37,020 on content for a second. 222 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:39,020 L'eshrog? 223 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:41,020 Go listen to one of the older episodes. 224 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:43,020 Yeah. 225 00:06:43,020 --> 00:06:47,020 Of course, I'm burying some of the most compelling reasons 226 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:48,020 to discuss this case. 227 00:06:48,020 --> 00:06:50,020 I'm burying the most compelling reasons 228 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:51,020 to discuss this case. 229 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:55,020 But that's because you have to agree to come along for the ride. 230 00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:57,020 If you want the cookie, my dudes. 231 00:06:57,020 --> 00:06:59,020 What if I don't agree? 232 00:06:59,020 --> 00:07:01,020 You don't have a choice. 233 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:03,020 We literally have a partnership agreement. 234 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:05,020 There's no free will in this arrangement. 235 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:07,020 No, there sure isn't. 236 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:13,020 Wayne Adam Ford was born in December of 1961. 237 00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:17,020 Of course, it figures that he would be a sage. 238 00:07:17,020 --> 00:07:19,020 Oh, yes. 239 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:21,020 Aren't they all? 240 00:07:21,020 --> 00:07:23,020 I mean, a lot of them. 241 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:25,020 Statistically speaking, yes. 242 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:29,020 I just want to throw out, I know a really amazing sage. 243 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:31,020 And I just want to throw that out there. 244 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:33,020 They are not a serial killer. 245 00:07:33,020 --> 00:07:35,020 Yeah, that's true. 246 00:07:35,020 --> 00:07:37,020 Not not not not everybody is. 247 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:38,020 Yeah. 248 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:39,020 Hi, Hannah. 249 00:07:39,020 --> 00:07:39,020 Thank goodness. 250 00:07:39,020 --> 00:07:41,020 Thank goodness you're not a serial killer 251 00:07:41,020 --> 00:07:43,020 because I love with you. 252 00:07:43,020 --> 00:07:44,020 Yeah. 253 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:46,020 I mean, you're not, right? 254 00:07:46,020 --> 00:07:47,020 Right? 255 00:07:47,020 --> 00:07:48,020 Hannah. 256 00:07:48,020 --> 00:07:49,020 Hannah. 257 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:50,020 Right? 258 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:54,020 You know Dexter's girlfriend's name was Hannah. 259 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:55,020 Interesting. 260 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:56,020 Oh, I don't know. 261 00:07:56,020 --> 00:08:00,020 I was thinking of Dexter too when you said serial killer 262 00:08:00,020 --> 00:08:01,020 with a conscience. 263 00:08:01,020 --> 00:08:06,020 Oh, you don't know he's so much had a conscience as I mean, 264 00:08:06,020 --> 00:08:08,020 he had the code. 265 00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:09,020 Yeah. 266 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:11,020 It was like a way of formula. 267 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:13,020 A congeal for him. 268 00:08:13,020 --> 00:08:14,020 That's true. 269 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:17,020 At roughly two years old, he suffered a fall 270 00:08:17,020 --> 00:08:21,020 and head injury that required three stitches. 271 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:29,020 As a toddler, there was also a fecal smearing incident 272 00:08:29,020 --> 00:08:31,020 in the family home. 273 00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:35,020 That's all I really want to say about that. 274 00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:38,020 Well, not exactly all. 275 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:40,020 But we're moving quickly through this. 276 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:45,020 If you're a psych major or really interested in the psych angle 277 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:51,020 of cases, just generally, then I guess maybe I'm only 278 00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:55,020 even mentioning it for your potential benefit, I guess. 279 00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:58,020 But I digress. 280 00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:03,020 This is not an altogether uncommon occurrence in young children. 281 00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:07,020 And for such a wide range of experience, 282 00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:12,020 for such a wide array of reasons, some of which related 283 00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:17,020 to emotional or psychological development, 284 00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:22,020 as well as neurological differences, and any number of other factors 285 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:28,020 that I may not even be aware of just from my cursory research. 286 00:09:28,020 --> 00:09:33,020 I'll be honest, most of which, I don't feel super qualified to speak to. 287 00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:35,020 Is there hard to understand? 288 00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:38,020 Yeah, because I mean, number one, I'm not a parent. 289 00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:45,020 Not that you need to be a parent to be informed about childhood development. 290 00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:50,020 But I'm also not a licensed medical or mental health professional. 291 00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:55,020 And some of this kind of dips a toe into those waters, for sure. 292 00:09:55,020 --> 00:10:03,020 I have also encountered this behavior in scenarios that we're not going to dig into today. 293 00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:09,020 But it's just also not a topic that I'm psyched to explore, if I'm being honest. 294 00:10:09,020 --> 00:10:10,020 Yeah, I mean, neither. 295 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:11,020 Yeah. 296 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:17,020 And of course, last but not least, there's the fact that I, myself, do not, in fact, poop. 297 00:10:17,020 --> 00:10:23,020 So instead, let's talk about his parentage, 298 00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:30,020 because by the end of this, you may have some questions about the people that raised this man. 299 00:10:30,020 --> 00:10:32,020 I'm sure we will. 300 00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:34,020 Yes. 301 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:36,020 I sure did. 302 00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:41,020 Wayne's father, Jean, was born in 1938 in Missouri. 303 00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:44,020 He was the eldest of eight children in his family. 304 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:53,020 And from an early age, he'd cared for his many younger siblings while they were growing up, primarily in the state of California. 305 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:55,020 Damn, that's hard. 306 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:58,020 Yes, kids raising kids. 307 00:10:58,020 --> 00:11:02,020 Right, being a caretaker when you are a child yourself. 308 00:11:02,020 --> 00:11:11,020 Jean would grow up to become a military man and a strict disciplinarian, the latter perhaps owing to serving in the Navy, 309 00:11:11,020 --> 00:11:16,020 because I feel like they're particularly drill sergeant D. 310 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:17,020 Are they? 311 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:18,020 I don't know. 312 00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:19,020 I don't know. 313 00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:21,020 Anyone military, I assume, is going to be kind of like that. 314 00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:23,020 Yeah, I would think. 315 00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:25,020 Or the total opposite. 316 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:27,020 It's really, you know, up in the air. 317 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:28,020 It could go. 318 00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:29,020 Yeah. 319 00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:34,020 But he actually tested in the top 1% of his incoming class. 320 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:37,020 So he went into intelligence work. 321 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:38,020 Oh, okay. 322 00:11:38,020 --> 00:11:41,020 So, yes. 323 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:46,020 Wayne's mother, Karen, was a cold and distant woman of German descent. 324 00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:49,020 At least once she became a mother. 325 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:51,020 Oh, okay. 326 00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:54,020 Right, because she was a person prior to giving birth. 327 00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:55,020 She was? 328 00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:56,020 Are you sure? 329 00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:57,020 Yes. 330 00:11:57,020 --> 00:12:01,020 She was, she was always German. 331 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:11,020 But the cold and distant thing may have been more specific to her particular parenting style than her actual personality. 332 00:12:11,020 --> 00:12:14,020 Did you know that my last name is German? 333 00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:16,020 I guess I should have realized that. 334 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:18,020 I've never thought about it. 335 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:20,020 Yeah, so I am not, I am not German. 336 00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:23,020 I am not from Germany, but I have ancestors and Germany. 337 00:12:23,020 --> 00:12:26,020 It's where my last name comes from. 338 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:31,020 It translates to rooster. 339 00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:34,020 So my last name is basically cock. 340 00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:36,020 Wow. 341 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:40,020 Just so everyone knows. 342 00:12:40,020 --> 00:12:43,020 I just wow. 343 00:12:43,020 --> 00:12:45,020 Karen was a small woman. 344 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:51,020 My source material indicates roughly 5 to 106 pounds. 345 00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:53,020 Oh, oddly specific, but okay. 346 00:12:53,020 --> 00:12:54,020 Very tiny. 347 00:12:54,020 --> 00:12:55,020 Uh-huh. 348 00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:06,020 I realize we placed a great deal of importance on the weight of a woman back then and will actually until about 12 noon today, 349 00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:17,020 when the threat level of having a slightly elevated BMI was downgraded from threat level red to orange. 350 00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:19,020 Just to orange. 351 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:20,020 Yeah, just orange. 352 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:22,020 Which just fun fact. 353 00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:29,020 I will include a link to a reference page where you can read about threat levels if you're not a kid of the early 2000s. 354 00:13:29,020 --> 00:13:36,020 Anyway, aside from being what I now realize as an adult woman was essentially rail thin. 355 00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:39,020 Karen was outdoorsy as a young girl. 356 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:46,020 She likely never saw herself in her eventual role of stay at home, wife and mother back then. 357 00:13:46,020 --> 00:13:56,020 Aww. That makes me want to pull my grandma's wedding dress out of the suitcase in the closet, because it's comically small. 358 00:13:56,020 --> 00:13:58,020 Tiny, tiny weeny. 359 00:13:58,020 --> 00:14:03,020 I tried it on when I was like 11 and we could barely get it to, yeah, oh my gosh. 360 00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:06,020 I was like, listen. 361 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:09,020 Okay, did you have less ribs back then? 362 00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:12,020 Like they had less processed food. 363 00:14:12,020 --> 00:14:14,020 I'm just going to go out on a limb here. 364 00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:23,020 I mean, but I'm just saying like I was a leaven and this had fit a 18 year old woman. 365 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:24,020 Yeah, what? 366 00:14:24,020 --> 00:14:25,020 What? 367 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:27,020 Maybe just smaller bones, you know? 368 00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:32,020 I mean, I feel like I'm not a particularly big-bond person either. 369 00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:33,020 I am. 370 00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:34,020 I don't know. 371 00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:35,020 I'm very dense. 372 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:43,020 I feel like just like I just want to go back in time and offer her like a couple of, I don't know, 373 00:14:43,020 --> 00:14:45,020 I don't have any fighters at least. 374 00:14:45,020 --> 00:14:50,020 You know, we don't want her to like, have her stomach get over full, but like, 375 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:54,020 sliders, you know, you can like eat ones, see how you feel. 376 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:57,020 Yeah, maybe a little spinach depth on the side. 377 00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:58,020 Oh, bitch. 378 00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:00,020 Okay. 379 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:08,020 The pair met at a birthday party when Jean was stationed in Germany and Karen was just 16 years old 380 00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:17,020 and had only recently moved back to her family's country of origin, aka Germany, also Germany. 381 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:19,020 Always Germany. 382 00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:24,020 From Texas, which I have to imagine was a bit of a culture shock. 383 00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:25,020 Damn. 384 00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:26,020 Yes. 385 00:15:26,020 --> 00:15:37,020 Jean was 20 years old, 63 and 235 pounds with a dark mustache, reminiscent of red butler. 386 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:40,020 I don't know who that is. 387 00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:43,020 Worry not. 388 00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:47,020 Don't worry, my notes say. 389 00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:51,020 It took me a minute to place that name as well. 390 00:15:51,020 --> 00:16:00,020 The name of his co-stars, fictional character, might spark at least a fuzzy image or memory in the old grey matter though. 391 00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:02,020 Scarlet O'Hara. 392 00:16:02,020 --> 00:16:05,020 I've only seen it one time. 393 00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:08,020 Oh, okay, but she knows it because that was a very blank stare, Cassie. 394 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:09,020 I've seen it one time. 395 00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:11,020 It was very long. 396 00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:12,020 Yeah. 397 00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:14,020 I don't remember it. 398 00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:17,020 Well, you will remember this. 399 00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:20,020 Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. 400 00:16:20,020 --> 00:16:21,020 I've heard that before. 401 00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:22,020 Okay. 402 00:16:22,020 --> 00:16:24,020 For the rest of you, no? 403 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:25,020 Anything? 404 00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:26,020 Bueller? 405 00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:28,020 Bueller? 406 00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:30,020 Another dated movie reference? 407 00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:31,020 Huh? 408 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:32,020 Very dated. 409 00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:33,020 No. 410 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:40,020 If that last line didn't clue you in, then I feel it's my duty to inform you that you have homework now. 411 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:42,020 Just Google it, okay? 412 00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:46,020 Just literally Google that one line and the movie is going to come up. 413 00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:47,020 I guarantee you. 414 00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:48,020 It's iconic. 415 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:49,020 Just do it. 416 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:50,020 Is it gone with the wind? 417 00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:51,020 Gone with the wind, okay. 418 00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:56,020 It's probably going to be part of the pop culture, either, for about another hundred years. 419 00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:58,020 So watch the damn film. 420 00:16:58,020 --> 00:17:02,020 Or at least a couple of clips from YouTube. 421 00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:03,020 Okay. 422 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:04,020 Come on. 423 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:06,020 I know there was something about a curtain dress. 424 00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:07,020 And I know that. 425 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:08,020 There was? 426 00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:09,020 From New Girl. 427 00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:12,020 It was in the movie. 428 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:18,020 There was also a scene where she drinks aftershave. 429 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:20,020 Oh my God! 430 00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:23,020 I like how you went British there. 431 00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:29,020 Apparently the cure for the Southern thing that's been popping up for us all day is just to... 432 00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,020 Just go British. 433 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:31,020 Yeah. 434 00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:34,020 Now fast forward just a little bit. 435 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:40,020 Karen was two months pregnant with Wayne's brother Rodney when the couple got married. 436 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:45,020 Their wedding was held in the small village where her grandmother lived and was presided 437 00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:48,020 over by the mayor at the time. 438 00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:49,020 Dang, popular. 439 00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:50,020 Really small village. 440 00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:52,020 Yeah, really small. 441 00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:55,020 He was the only guy who was ordained in the village. 442 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:56,020 Yes. 443 00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:57,020 Yes. 444 00:17:57,020 --> 00:18:00,020 And then the mayor/efficient. 445 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:09,020 Flash, judge, slash, sheriff, sheriff, head baker. 446 00:18:09,020 --> 00:18:14,020 Karen asserted later that their relationship changed that night. 447 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:22,340 Karen implied in interviews, if not directly and implicitly stated, that Jean sexually abused 448 00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:25,020 her beginning from that night forward. 449 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:27,020 Oh no. 450 00:18:27,020 --> 00:18:28,020 Yes. 451 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:29,020 He just waited until she was trapped. 452 00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:30,020 I guess. 453 00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:31,020 Ugh. 454 00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:38,620 In a pattern more recognizable than plaid or polka dots. 455 00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:45,020 For many of us at least, Jean quickly became domineering an abusive according to Karen. 456 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:47,020 That sucks. 457 00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:49,340 I don't care for it. 458 00:18:49,340 --> 00:18:54,020 She also claimed that Wayne had been a product of marital rape. 459 00:18:54,020 --> 00:18:55,020 Oh. 460 00:18:55,020 --> 00:19:03,020 Regardless of whether or not that was true, it wouldn't even be considered a crime back then. 461 00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:06,020 Nearly anywhere in the world. 462 00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:07,020 Barf. 463 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,020 Yeah. 464 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:09,020 Absolute barf. 465 00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:10,020 Yeah. 466 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:12,020 They are not your property, even if you marry them. 467 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,020 Yeah. 468 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:14,020 Doesn't give you the right to shit. 469 00:19:14,020 --> 00:19:15,020 Yeah. 470 00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:17,020 You're going to be really angry. 471 00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:19,020 Oh, I'm already there. 472 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:20,020 Yeah. 473 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:22,020 You think you are. 474 00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:28,180 Wayne would be a teenager himself and likely learning about the birds and the bees before 475 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:33,620 the very first state in the U.S. outlawed marital rape. 476 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:35,020 Way to go, South Dakota. 477 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:36,020 Woo. 478 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:39,020 Care to play a guessing game, Cassie? 479 00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:41,020 Maybe. 480 00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:47,580 What year do you think it was that South Dakota struck down the quote, "marital exemption." 481 00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:48,580 It's okay. 482 00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:50,380 I didn't expect you to know. 483 00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:51,580 I'm really bad at dates. 484 00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:52,580 No. 485 00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:55,580 And it's 1986. 486 00:19:55,580 --> 00:19:57,940 You're not going to like it. 487 00:19:57,940 --> 00:19:59,340 No one likes it. 488 00:19:59,340 --> 00:20:02,020 Nebraska was such a close second. 489 00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:07,940 This state is credited in some sources as being the first. 490 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:12,220 That's not a very good clue, but more importantly, that's right. 491 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:21,540 You do smell a tangent because until 1976, every state had a marital exemption. 492 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:27,540 That allowed a husband to rape his wife without fear of legal consequences. 493 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:34,820 Despite being illegal now, certain states still treat spousal or marital rape differently 494 00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:37,500 than other rape offenses. 495 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:45,240 I'm looking at the stragglers on this legal front like Ohio and Minnesota with much side 496 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:53,720 eye because honestly, they had some pretty significant loopholes leading up to as recent 497 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,280 as 2019. 498 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,760 That's disgusting. 499 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,960 It's not different. 500 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,200 It's the same. 501 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,200 Rape is rape. 502 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,200 No means no. 503 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:08,200 Fuck yourself. 504 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,200 Yeah. 505 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,200 Oh, man. 506 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,240 I'm really glad we're on the same page about that. 507 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 This could have been the end of the podcast. 508 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,320 But let's get to the lightning round of this horrific game, shall we? 509 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,320 Care to guess when this sort of enlightened way of thinking of women and wives is, I don't 510 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:37,680 know, people rather than seminal receptacles hit the sheets in, I don't know. 511 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,680 Let's just pick Germany. 512 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,360 And you've unlocked another quote. 513 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:52,440 In 1997, laws were amended to criminalize marital rape, incorporate gender neutral language 514 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,080 and recognize the effect of psychological coercion. 515 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:07,880 In 2016, German laws were rewritten to remove a previous requirement that a victim physically 516 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,200 resist their assailants and be overcome by force. 517 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,280 Oh, okay. 518 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,720 Wow. 519 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,080 This is why we can't have nice things. 520 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,440 Just like the dates on these are mind blowing. 521 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,800 Because you think like duh, duh. 522 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Yeah. 523 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,560 It's pretty duh. 524 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,480 Yeah. 525 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:41,920 Or what it's worth, Jean denied her version of events in his own interviews. 526 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,560 According to a quote recorded shortly after learning that Karen had actually shared her 527 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:54,240 version of events regarding his conception with Wayne, he was supposedly deeply saddened, 528 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,480 saying, that's really sad. 529 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:03,840 Though it should be noted that according to context provided in some source materials, 530 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,320 he seems to be referring to the fact that this was shared with Wayne. 531 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Oh, he said that Wayne was told this version of events. 532 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,840 And that's what was sad. 533 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:19,840 Okay. 534 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:26,280 So his father denies this allegation, but doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with how 535 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:33,720 sad a fact it is that this accounting of events is what his ex-wife lived. 536 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,720 That was her experience. 537 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,960 That's what she shared about their marriage. 538 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:40,960 Don't get me wrong. 539 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,880 I hate it from every single angle. 540 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,480 Maybe I'm projecting here, but it doesn't seem like he's particularly concerned regarding 541 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,320 the allegation itself. 542 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:58,600 And that feels more than a little gross, regardless of what the laws governing their 543 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,240 marriage at the time might have stipulated. 544 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,800 Yeah, I was just going to say because he doesn't really have to be concerned. 545 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,760 I mean, he really doesn't have anything to be concerned about. 546 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:11,760 He's fine. 547 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:20,640 I mean, just his reputation, I guess, but he's a white man. 548 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,640 There's nothing else to say. 549 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,640 Yeah. 550 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,640 Nope. 551 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,640 Nope. 552 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,640 There sure is. 553 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,200 You know what else is really sad? 554 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,240 Well, frankly, a lot about this family and this case. 555 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,760 And that's before Wayne's serious criminal history ever even begins. 556 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,760 Yeah. 557 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,560 Let's remember this is actually about Wayne. 558 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Yeah. 559 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,800 Story of his life, right? 560 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,040 I mean, your parents have a lot to do with your life. 561 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:58,400 So although it may have been pretty common place for the era, by 19, Karen was saddled 562 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:04,600 with two kids, one of which she may have deeply resented. 563 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,800 She also had a husband that was away for his role in intelligence for six months or more 564 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:10,800 at a time. 565 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,600 That sounds great. 566 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:18,480 I literally next line, Cassie, which to be honest, it does sound like that last bit about 567 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,560 the hubs being away might have been the only upside for her. 568 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Yeah. 569 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,240 In this instance, major, major plus. 570 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,400 And then she stuck taking care of the kids alone, which honestly, if he was home, she was 571 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,080 probably still stuck taking care of the kids alone. 572 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,080 Yeah. 573 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,360 At this point in history, let's face it, like it's just better if he's gone, I think, for 574 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:40,360 her. 575 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:46,440 Young Wayne seemed to crave both of his parents attention and affection without it being 576 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,520 returned from either parental figure. 577 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,520 No. 578 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,360 There's a lot of complicated feelings to unpack regarding this family and their backstory, 579 00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:03,760 but unfortunately, this isn't a session with an appropriately licensed therapist as previously 580 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:04,760 discussed. 581 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,560 I want to be real clear about that. 582 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,880 We can ruminate on the facts and the various counts, but we can't really do as much as the 583 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:21,280 empath in me wants to do in order to fix the countless broken or damaged lives that are 584 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,360 intertwined here. 585 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,240 I guess that might really be the saddest part. 586 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,240 Yeah. 587 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,080 Because where do you trace all of this back to? 588 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:39,000 And there's just a lot of what I think most people would consider evil, just ugliness. 589 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Yeah. 590 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,680 Just keeps getting trickled down through the family line. 591 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,920 That's trickled down economics. 592 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,160 Reagan invented that. 593 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,160 Oh, really? 594 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,880 You had no idea. 595 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,840 It's frequently been reported that although Jean denied the allegations in interviews that 596 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:04,100 Karen likely needed to disassociate from her youngest son as a result of her PTSD and 597 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:10,640 trauma following the sexual assault by her husband that resulted in her pregnancy with 598 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,640 Wayne. 599 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,240 It's just like a daily reminder that's so sad. 600 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,360 We know that Karen had at least one prior pregnancy that she carried to term. 601 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:30,440 She had given birth to Wayne's brother Rodney, aka his father, Jean's clear favorite. 602 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,800 So another element of just like, yeah, be better. 603 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,520 This was according to some recollections provided later at least. 604 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:45,120 So a lot of people felt like, oh, yeah, no, it was totally like obvious that Jean had a 605 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,280 favorite child, which is not great. 606 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,360 I don't understand why. 607 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,160 You made the other one happen too. 608 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,160 Yeah. 609 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:06,000 I mean, as kids grow up, they have their own individual personalities and, you know, I get 610 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:13,320 that there might be characteristics that like you relate to one child more in certain respects 611 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,120 than another, but you don't get to have a favorite child. 612 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,120 That's, yeah. 613 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,880 I don't know. 614 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,880 I mean, hot take, I guess. 615 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,880 Yeah. 616 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,120 Is that I don't, I don't think I'm going out on a limb with that idea of that. 617 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,880 I don't think so. 618 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,840 The couple fought almost constantly throughout their marriage. 619 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,960 It's probably not hard for most of us to imagine that at this point. 620 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:48,480 And it would get much worse before it eventually, well, it never got better. 621 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,360 Not in a happily ever after sort of way. 622 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,960 That's for sure. 623 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560 Any type of way. 624 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:04,840 In the late 1960s, Jean was assigned to Okinawa, Japan, and the whole family relocated. 625 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,840 Wow. 626 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,840 Yes. 627 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:15,200 And Karen was miserable there and it led to an eventual suicide attempt. 628 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:21,480 As a result, she returned to Urega, which is in very, very northern California. 629 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:28,440 I still sometimes think of it as Oregon, though, because people actually misattributed it 630 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:35,960 in Oregon, but that's where she started having and heavy air quotes here. 631 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,760 Affair with her husband's 15-year-old brother, Billy. 632 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:41,760 Uh-huh. 633 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,760 I would... 634 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:44,760 Uh-huh. 635 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,760 I was not expecting you to say that. 636 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:47,760 Uh-huh. 637 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,760 Wow. 638 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,760 Okay. 639 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:50,760 Yeah. 640 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Which, listen, if you're a grown-ass married woman sleeping with a 15-year-old boy, that's, 641 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,160 that's not an affair. 642 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,120 We have a different term for that. 643 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,120 That is also rape. 644 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,120 Yeah, that is statutory rape. 645 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,120 Is rape. 646 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,480 It's all rape. 647 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:13,040 And if you're mad at or hate your husband enough to do that with his kid brother to add insult 648 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,840 to injury, it's time to see a divorce lawyer. 649 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,840 Yeah. 650 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,520 Because it's bad enough to cheat and it would be bad enough to be unfaithful to your husband 651 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,680 with a child, but then for it to be his kid brother. 652 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,680 Yikes. 653 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,680 Of course. 654 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:38,320 When Jean returned to Eureka and found out he was livid and forced the family to move 655 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:44,560 after buying a house in Santa Rosa some 200-plus miles away. 656 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,040 Not really sure how that affected his relationship with his brother going forward. 657 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,120 I have to imagine not great. 658 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,120 Probably not great. 659 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,120 Yeah. 660 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,120 How old was she? 661 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,640 She was obviously over 18. 662 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:56,640 Yeah. 663 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,000 But I know she was young when they got married. 664 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,840 She was 16 when they got married. 665 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:03,840 I'm guessing. 666 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,080 I mean, she was probably early 20s. 667 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:13,800 I heard an interesting thing about people who are sexually attracted to younger people. 668 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,760 I can't remember where I heard it. 669 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:21,360 I don't know if we talked about it on the podcast with someone who was knowledgeable or if 670 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,040 I was watching a documentary or something. 671 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:30,000 But it was about how when you're sexually traumatized as a child, like she was a child 672 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,280 when she got married and raped, right? 673 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,280 Yeah. 674 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,760 It's like your brain kind of stays sexually in that age. 675 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:37,760 Yeah. 676 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:46,800 There's a lot of really interesting sort of psychological principles around sexual trauma 677 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,360 and the effect that abuse has on your brain. 678 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,360 Yeah. 679 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,360 Not okay. 680 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,360 Yeah. 681 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,560 That's such a tough thing because I mean, it's really hard. 682 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,680 It's really like, it's a black and white thing and is it's wrong? 683 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,160 But it's like, there is like this gray area. 684 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,160 Right. 685 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,640 Well, and then of course, there's Mary Kay Litternow. 686 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,560 There's sort of this idea that like, that's not abuse. 687 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,200 You know, she's a woman who's slapped with her. 688 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,560 I mean, not even close. 689 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,080 We're not even talking about like, oh, it's a really mature 17 year old. 690 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440 We're talking about like a 12 or a 13 year old. 691 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,440 Oh, God. 692 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,760 An actual child who is not altogether that far off from the age of your own children. 693 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,200 So, no. 694 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,200 No. 695 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,440 No. 696 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:48,080 But we have this tendency to be like, we want to like slap this, you know, boy on the ass, 697 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600 like it's a locker room. 698 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,600 Yeah. 699 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,680 He just won the big game like, oh, good for you. 700 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,680 Score. 701 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680 Hot teacher man. 702 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:56,680 It's gross. 703 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,680 Yeah, it's not. 704 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,480 No care for it. 705 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,880 By 1969, Jean was discharged and returned to living in the family home. 706 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,320 But of course, this did nothing to ease the household tension because actually it brought 707 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520 all of the sources of the tension into the one household. 708 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,520 Yeah. 709 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,320 That's how that works. 710 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,400 The couple would divorce in the early 1970s. 711 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:29,160 His parents' separation when Wayne was 10 years old resulted in a greater disconnect between 712 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,640 him and both of his parents as they begin dating again. 713 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,640 Oh, okay. 714 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,640 Yeah. 715 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:42,240 So, he's just like a little kid that's already feeling as if, you know, they don't love him 716 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,280 as much and then that happens and just the disconnect. 717 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:55,960 You know, just that he's not getting what he needs to develop a healthy emotional bond. 718 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:56,960 Yeah. 719 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480 And then they're just going to go pay attention to their new partners and, right. 720 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,600 As Wayne got older, he became increasingly aggressive and his behavior was problematic 721 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,080 at school. 722 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,560 Unfortunately, some of this behavior went beyond the classroom. 723 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:20,880 Karen kicked both boys out of their home, starting with Wayne and then eventually the older brother 724 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:21,880 Rodney. 725 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,400 Oh, that makes sense. 726 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,400 Yeah. 727 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,400 Kick out the younger one first. 728 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,880 Well, she liked him a lot less. 729 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,880 Yeah. 730 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:36,240 So, you know, their father recalled receiving a phone call from Wayne, stating he was out 731 00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:41,240 on the porch and wondered if his father would take him in. 732 00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:42,840 He did. 733 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:49,040 When Rodney was unceremoniously locked out of the home one night, he simply started staying 734 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,080 with the families of neighborhood friends, alternately. 735 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,400 So he was couch surfing. 736 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,720 Rodney or Rod, well, okay. 737 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,080 So it started with Wayne and then it happened to Rodney as well. 738 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,080 Oh, okay. 739 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,080 Yeah. 740 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,640 When their father learned of this, he would insist that Rodney come to live with him as 741 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,400 well, much to Wayne's chagrin. 742 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,400 Yeah. 743 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,400 He wasn't super psyched. 744 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,560 I can't imagine why. 745 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,560 Great. 746 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,800 I love how your favorite child is going to come in love with us, me, the other child that's 747 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,240 just, okay, cool. 748 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:32,280 Wayne didn't like helping his father with construction projects as his brother Rodney did. 749 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:39,920 And you can see where just again, the divide is becoming greater and greater between him 750 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,240 and just about everybody in his potential support system. 751 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:51,760 The issues prevailed when as a teen, Wayne robbed a store while wielding a gun, so escalating 752 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,400 pretty quickly. 753 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,360 I think most of us would like to believe that we'd be self-aware enough to see the writing 754 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,600 on the wall, that this was likely an early cry for help. 755 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:09,840 However, his dad worked out a remarkably lenient punishment for him in this instance. 756 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:16,160 Which is always great, please, let mediocre white men off the hook easily. 757 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,520 When has that ever worked out poorly? 758 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,320 Probably just didn't care. 759 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,120 He said whatever. 760 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,120 Yeah. 761 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,040 He had to wash police cars after school for a few weeks. 762 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:36,040 But eventually, this led to him stealing a cruiser for a joy ride. 763 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,040 Boys will be boys. 764 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,040 Am I right? 765 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,280 Oh, God. 766 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,320 Wayne enrolled in the Marine Corps at 17 with the encouragement of his parents. 767 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:53,680 He arrived at boot camp in January of 1979, and thus began his somewhat tumultuous career 768 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,000 in the military. 769 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,960 Though it didn't exactly instill the discipline that his parents might have expected. 770 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,320 In October of 1980, he met Kelly. 771 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,520 He was a blonde-haired slender college student known to be a very kind young woman. 772 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,040 How that ever ended up happening, I will never know. 773 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,920 He was kind of the worst out the gate. 774 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,080 I mean women like the bad boys. 775 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,080 They really do. 776 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,080 We're drawn to... 777 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,080 Yeah. 778 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:33,040 Listen, he would claim that he forgot her number after not calling her for days. 779 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,280 And so I presume we're supposed to believe that what? 780 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,760 He didn't own a pen? 781 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,280 Couldn't write it down. 782 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:43,280 Okay. 783 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,800 Oh boy. 784 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:51,040 Then on the flip side, he would also have fit several miles off base to come and visit her 785 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,040 at other times. 786 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,920 Classic fuckboy playbook stuff here, guys. 787 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:58,920 Seriously. 788 00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,920 Yes. 789 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,000 Regass lighting and love bombing at the same time. 790 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,600 Oh, key terms. 791 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,760 Nearly as addictive as crack. 792 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,760 Crack a cane? 793 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,160 That is a rumor. 794 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,960 I have not scientifically tested that. 795 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:17,960 Nope. 796 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,960 Nope. 797 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,240 Don't plan to. 798 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:25,560 It's exactly the type of energy most of us have been trying to avoid ever since we went 799 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:33,000 through our own personal, douche-filled, rough patches in our respective dating histories. 800 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,880 If I'm wrong, all you have to do is write in and tell me that you have no idea what I'm 801 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,680 talking about. 802 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:45,360 My prediction is we receive zero emails on that topic. 803 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:51,640 If you dated the same person your whole damn life and then married them, you have still 804 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,440 heard from your single friends at one point or another. 805 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,360 What a minefield dating can be, so don't email us if you're that person either. 806 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,960 Their relationship would take a turn in November 1980 when they saw a car accident on the side 807 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,040 of the road as they drove home from a dinner date. 808 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:18,600 At the scene of the accident, though EMS workers quickly took over and police were on the scene 809 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,280 Wayne was hit by a drunk driver. 810 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,280 What? 811 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,280 Oh my god. 812 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,240 There was already an accident. 813 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:26,240 Uh-huh. 814 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:33,160 And then the drunk driver hit people that were there as innocent bystanders trying to help 815 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,520 the people that had already been in an accident. 816 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,240 What is going on in this town? 817 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:42,720 Yeah, couldn't tell you. 818 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:50,880 The impact shattered his front teeth, broke his jaw, and allegedly caused a serious head injury. 819 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:51,880 Oh no. 820 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,480 He was even in a coma for nine days. 821 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,440 And you said he already had a head injury as a child? 822 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,640 I mean, he says he did. 823 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,320 It sounds like we have no reason not to believe that, but either way it's bad. 824 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,120 It's not great. 825 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,120 This is also not great. 826 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:17,400 Kelly didn't realize he'd been hit by the drunk driver because she'd been gone for about 827 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,720 20 minutes looking for a pay phone to call 911. 828 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,920 Oh, for the first accident. 829 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,640 Oh my gosh. 830 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:34,360 When other witnesses at the scene asked her if she had seen the third vehicle, she responded 831 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:42,000 she'd been in it, to which they countered, "No, the red car." 832 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,960 We're going in another bystander, we're both hit by the drunk driver and have been thrown 833 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,840 down in embankment, some 40 feet. 834 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:51,840 Oh my God. 835 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,840 Yep. 836 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:53,840 Fuck. 837 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,280 She does not realize this, even though people were like, "No, no, no, the other car." 838 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,640 She's still like, there's just a disconnect there. 839 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,640 Well, there would be. 840 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:03,640 Yep. 841 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,640 That's very confusing. 842 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,280 There would be. 843 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,640 So she drove around looking for him, confused about where he had gone, but also she's 844 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,360 like, "Well, it's kind of a fuck, boy." 845 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,240 Guess he just disappears on our dates now. 846 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,440 I mean, boy who cried wolf, that's what happens. 847 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,840 Between all the chaos at the scene, neither she or anyone else there realized that the man 848 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,880 that had been hit by the drunk driver and her date had been won in the same. 849 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,880 Wow. 850 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:34,880 Yikes. 851 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,880 Wayne has frequently maintained that he believes he suffered serious injury to his 852 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:48,920 brain, which I don't doubt, but I just don't know that it's responsible, Wayne. 853 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,200 It's unclear what if any brain damage resulted. 854 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:59,760 However, according to both Kelly and his relatives, his personality drastically changed after 855 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,520 the incident. 856 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:08,720 When he woke from the coma, Wayne asked for her and Kelly came running. 857 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:14,080 When Kelly arrived at the hospital, she was a little confused because there was a sign 858 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,160 that said only visitors allowed were family members. 859 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,680 So why the hell did they call her if she wasn't going to be able to visit him? 860 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:29,560 The nurse was relieved to see her and waved her on through, stating that he'd been repeating 861 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,920 Kelly's phone number nonstop until they promised to call her. 862 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,840 Oh my gosh, so he did have her number memorized. 863 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,840 He did after... 864 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:46,680 Listen, his face was black and blue at roughly twice its normal size. 865 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:53,840 And aside from his lip being nearly torn off, he was also concussed. 866 00:42:53,840 --> 00:43:00,480 Weird how after a serious injury like what he had that he did, in fact, remember her phone 867 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,480 number. 868 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,520 Maybe it just shook it loose a little bit. 869 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,000 It shook some things loose, alright? 870 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:13,320 Kelly thought it was pretty sus, that all of a sudden he could remember her phone number 871 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:19,240 without any problem following such a traumatic ordeal, but apparently she didn't feel like 872 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,240 pressing the issue. 873 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,920 Girl, it's Red Flag City up in that hospital bed. 874 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,920 Run. 875 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,520 It's not like he's well enough to follow, so make the most of the opportunity for crying 876 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:34,520 out loud. 877 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:35,520 Seriously, run. 878 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,040 What's he going to do? 879 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,840 Yang Gowd is IV. 880 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,360 Come on, not victim blaming. 881 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:48,920 Just sometimes I wish that I could time travel and, you know, narrate certain people's inner 882 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,560 monologue so that I could motivate them to do the thing that I wish that they had done. 883 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,640 That's not weird, is it? 884 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:57,640 No, okay. 885 00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,640 Perfect. 886 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,640 Kelly met Karen, so that's Wayne's mother, after the accident. 887 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:12,800 Kelly also ended up caring for him for about a week or so after he was released from hospital. 888 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:19,920 Though Karen reached out to them, Wayne's father and brother apparently did not understand 889 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,600 the serious nature of his injuries until years later. 890 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,560 And it's pretty wild. 891 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:35,280 Wayne reported that he had died from the collision and had only been revived after the fact. 892 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,280 Oh, okay. 893 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,600 Now we're talking like near death experience, like, come on. 894 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,040 Did he see Elvis? 895 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,200 Not to my knowledge. 896 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:52,080 Kelly also was said to notice a shift in Wayne, but here's the thing, it didn't scare her off 897 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:57,680 because he was actually seemingly more friendly and kinder than ever. 898 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:58,680 Hmm. 899 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,240 He was cured. 900 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:01,840 He was cured of the fuck boy. 901 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,400 Just a little knock on the head is the fuck boy, Kure. 902 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,040 So I bet you can see where this is going. 903 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,920 Two people trauma bonded by a devastating or life altering event. 904 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,880 Well, in May 1981, they alloped. 905 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,560 Oh, did they? 906 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:20,560 Yeah. 907 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:21,800 Sure did. 908 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,200 Once they were married, things apparently changed quickly. 909 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,200 Some familiar? 910 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,920 A little bit, a little bit. 911 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,000 Like father like son, allegedly. 912 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:40,080 The typical violent and abusive pattern emerged as he became angry and demanding. 913 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:50,080 He hit her one day when she had the audacity to query about his family after the wedding. 914 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,760 Oh, okay. 915 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:58,600 So unreasonable to think that she could just like ask questions about her in-laws. 916 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,880 Honestly, the nerve. 917 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,320 Well he tried to hit her actually and he missed, but whatever he did, it broke all of the 918 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,120 knuckles in his right hand. 919 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,120 Holy shit. 920 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,120 That isn't karma. 921 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,360 I don't even know what is. 922 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,360 I know. 923 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,800 And I'm not the least bit sorry when I say I wish he had shattered a bone in his hand that 924 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:25,160 would have swam throughout his body and lodged into his spine to paralyze him permanently, 925 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:30,800 preferably following a rectal perforation. 926 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,720 Agreed. 927 00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:39,640 But of course, as I think you all know, it gets worse and not at all in that way. 928 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:46,360 The rectal perforation, which is own boneway, which would have arguably been way better, 929 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,160 but whatever. 930 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:55,160 As newlyweds, I'm sure they were happily and frequently enjoying, shall we say, marital 931 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,160 relations? 932 00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,920 Yes, that's what we'll say because I'm secretly 80 years old. 933 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,400 They were bone in. 934 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,440 All the signs have been there, people. 935 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,400 I'm an old. 936 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,920 Well as the female body is apt to do at times, Kelly became pregnant. 937 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,280 He forced her to have an abortion when she became pregnant, all the while demanding more 938 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,280 sex. 939 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,280 Why? 940 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,280 They're married. 941 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:30,000 And here's the thing, this is not an abortion that she wanted. 942 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,480 So just barf city all around with this dude. 943 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,480 Oh my God. 944 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,240 I mean, I didn't mean by that comment that if you're married, you can't have an abortion. 945 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:42,320 I just meant like, I don't see his reasoning like they're mid-winter child. 946 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,320 I just... 947 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:44,320 Yeah. 948 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:52,280 I love it when women have no bodily autonomy, like back then and then also possibly arguably 949 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,920 in the near future slash present because we might be living in the prequel of the headmaids 950 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,160 tale. 951 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:08,640 And I know that you don't want to believe me, but it definitely gets even grosser in 1982. 952 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,040 That's when he took a trip to Big Bear with his marine buddies. 953 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:19,280 They went roller skating and met a couple of teenage girls because obviously what a normal 954 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,120 thing to do with your bros. 955 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:28,000 These gross idiots invited two 15 year old girls back to their cabin. 956 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:34,120 The two young girls were assaulted because men are trash and not in the cute way that like 957 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,160 raccoons are lovingly referred to as trash pandas. 958 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,160 Ew. 959 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:45,400 At certain points in history, not too distant a time at this point in the timeline, people 960 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,840 hitchhiked without incident. 961 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,920 So why would these young girls think that anything bad would happen to them? 962 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,920 You know what I mean? 963 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,280 They should think that. 964 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,800 They should have the right to think that nothing bad will happen to them. 965 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,800 Yeah. 966 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,800 Yep. 967 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:11,200 That's the part I never understand about all of the rampant victim blaming mentality. 968 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,200 And I'm sorry. 969 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,800 You've probably heard some version of this scenario before, but whether she's 14, 24 or 970 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:26,760 44, a female or a female presenting person should be able to walk down any goddamn street 971 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,320 well lit or not at any hour of the day or night, wearing whatever the fuck she feels like, 972 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,640 you do not have to be concerned about being sexually assaulted and/or murdered. 973 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:39,960 Wild. 974 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,920 I mean, just a hot take. 975 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,320 I mean, we learn this in fucking elementary school. 976 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,320 Like, stay in your bubble, don't... 977 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:48,320 Yeah. 978 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,320 I can touch your own self. 979 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,920 You have a body, touch that. 980 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,320 Do what you want with that one. 981 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,920 Don't take someone else's. 982 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:55,920 Yeah. 983 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:56,920 What's theirs? 984 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,880 Sadly, it's just not the world we live in. 985 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:08,800 It's not the reality of the situation at this time and place or any other in human history. 986 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:09,800 Yep. 987 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,120 That's optimistic. 988 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,120 Yeah. 989 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,320 I like where it's at. 990 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,560 One of Wayne's friends went to drive the girls home, but when they pulled the vehicle over 991 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,760 to assist another that was stranded on the side of the road, one of the girls screamed 992 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,800 for help indicating they had been assaulted. 993 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,280 And it was at this point in the story that I go, "Why the hell does something bad happen 994 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:41,720 every time this guy pulls over to help somebody on the side of the road?" 995 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:46,600 Some of the details aren't totally clear around this particular portion of the evening 996 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,600 and the incident that took place, but the end result was that Wayne was arrested for attempted 997 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,800 rape. 998 00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:01,880 Now that girl would later decline to press charges and was unavailable to make a statement 999 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,280 regarding the incident. 1000 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:11,600 But I think it's fair to say that it's more than likely pretty clear what happened here 1001 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:12,960 and it wasn't good. 1002 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:13,960 And I hate it. 1003 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,160 Okay, bye. 1004 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,840 The couple would move shortly thereafter to Santa Ana because he's already been taught 1005 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,920 from an early age that, you know, when you have problems, you just move. 1006 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,680 They can't follow you. 1007 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,480 Following the move to Santa Ana, there was a small window of time in the remainder of the 1008 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,440 early 1980s where they moved repeatedly. 1009 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,160 He was still enlisted in the military at this time, but they were seeking some stability 1010 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,400 in terms of income. 1011 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,640 He would screw up at a job and then they would take off. 1012 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:56,600 He would find something new for work each time to keep them afloat until eventually Kelly 1013 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:04,280 was the one to find gainful employment, which certainly threatened his masculinity. 1014 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:05,880 Of course it did. 1015 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,440 His need for control only increased from the early warning signs like telling Kelly what 1016 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,080 to wear each day and it only continued to escalate. 1017 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:24,480 One night in 1983 when she went out with coworkers for dinner and he hadn't heard from her, his 1018 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:30,920 paranoia that Kelly was cheating was fueled to a fever pitch. 1019 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:37,920 Presumably drunk by the time she showed up at home, Wayne had geared up in the full camo 1020 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:38,920 get up. 1021 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,480 What? 1022 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:46,400 And was lying in wait with his bow and arrow in the yard so that he could catch her red 1023 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:54,360 handed and attack whatever man she was out with and obviously having an affair with because 1024 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,200 nothing says camo like tequila. 1025 00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,200 Am I right? 1026 00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:59,680 Oh my god. 1027 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:08,000 He was just outside with a bow and arrow hiding and waiting for a person. 1028 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,040 Or maybe that's a whiskey thing. 1029 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,600 Me drink too much whiskey is just what you do. 1030 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,640 Well, Kelly wasn't sticking around to figure it out. 1031 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:24,920 We'll get into their divorce along with the rest of the downward spiral next as in next 1032 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:25,920 week. 1033 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,320 What a freaking weirdo and not in a good way. 1034 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,520 No, not in a good way. 1035 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:37,120 I just picture him with like paint on his face and I know is that not the eyes? 1036 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:38,760 You're exactly crazy eyes. 1037 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,800 That's exactly what I picture. 1038 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,280 Oh my god. 1039 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:53,880 This man in what world is that a normal reaction and also like you were going to attack this 1040 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:54,880 person? 1041 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,080 I'm just gonna shoot him with my bow. 1042 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:04,520 Like what is this was just a coworker that like gave her a ride or walked her up to her 1043 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:05,520 door. 1044 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,920 I just asked questions later. 1045 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,920 Wow. 1046 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,680 Mark the white man model. 1047 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,680 The white man model. 1048 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,680 I mean, yeah. 1049 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:18,680 Okay. 1050 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,680 Should we do some Taro? 1051 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:21,680 Yeah, let's do Taro. 1052 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,160 Let's see what comes up. 1053 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,160 Okay. 1054 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,720 For Mr. Wayney Wayne here. 1055 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,640 Hey, I want to know something funny. 1056 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,560 His initials are waff. 1057 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,560 Waff. 1058 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,720 What in the actual wolf? 1059 00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:44,720 Wow. 1060 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,760 As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows. 1061 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,640 So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week. 1062 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,040 Let's show them some love. 1063 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,000 You can find their info in our show notes. 1064 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,240 What do you get when you mix someone who loves true crime and horror movies with someone 1065 00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:05,280 who's afraid of their own shadow? 1066 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:06,280 Someone like you? 1067 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:07,280 Yeah. 1068 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,280 How do you ask? 1069 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,360 You get the perfect podcast. 1070 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,200 We're Carmen and Joanna of Live Laugh Murder Podcast. 1071 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,720 We're not your typical true crime show. 1072 00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:20,120 Here at Live Laugh Murder, we tell stories that might be true crime or they might be the 1073 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,080 plot of a horror film. 1074 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:23,760 Can you tell the difference? 1075 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,640 Don't worry though, because all is revealed by the end. 1076 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,440 We are true crime sometimes. 1077 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:30,440 So check us out. 1078 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,840 We release bi-weekly on Saturdays. 1079 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,080 And remember to live laugh, but never what Joanna. 1080 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:38,080 Order. 1081 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:39,080 Never murder. 1082 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:40,080 Thanks guys. 1083 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,080 Thanks. 1084 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,520 You guys were back. 1085 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,080 And don't worry, we did get more wine. 1086 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,080 Well, of course. 1087 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,080 All right. 1088 00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:59,720 We're back from our delicious snack break. 1089 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:03,680 You always have to take a break. 1090 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,680 Did you drop one? 1091 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,680 Oh, okay. 1092 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,040 Was it like that or was it right? 1093 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,640 No, I think it was in the reverse. 1094 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,560 Okay, interesting. 1095 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,160 It was the two of ones. 1096 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,520 Yeah, we'll stop that one aside. 1097 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:21,520 Okay. 1098 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:22,520 I think. 1099 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,920 Oh, we got eight of cups. 1100 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:28,920 Okay. 1101 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,880 It's like a shiny lizard gecko thing. 1102 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:33,880 Wow. 1103 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,640 Yeah, we'll have to look at the little book maybe to see. 1104 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,720 What kind of little lizard? 1105 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:41,720 Okay. 1106 00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:52,040 Eight of cups, our keywords are turning away, cutting losses, decline, dejection and seriousness. 1107 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,040 Walk away. 1108 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,040 Also run. 1109 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,040 Yeah. 1110 00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,040 Also run. 1111 00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,680 Because you said that in the episode, you're like run away. 1112 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,680 Take Kelly Kelly. 1113 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:03,680 Kelly. 1114 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:04,680 Yeah. 1115 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:05,680 Usain. 1116 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:11,760 This card often pictures a person with his or her back to us walking away. 1117 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,240 I just like thought of the parents too. 1118 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,040 Wow. 1119 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:23,320 Sometimes a waning moon overhead symbolizes decrease. 1120 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:30,200 When the eight of cups appears, a situation has become untenable and you have decided to turn 1121 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,400 your back on it. 1122 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,080 Now you must strike out in another direction. 1123 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,080 Wow. 1124 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,080 Okay. 1125 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,640 There was a lot of that in the story. 1126 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,640 Yes. 1127 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,640 Yeah. 1128 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:43,640 Okay. 1129 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:50,000 The upright interpretation says, you wish things had turned out differently, but you can't 1130 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:56,760 salvage a matter and you realize you must abandon it. 1131 00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:02,280 It's time to let go and get out of the situation that has failed despite your best 1132 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:03,280 efforts. 1133 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,200 Oh, your best efforts. 1134 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,200 Oh, my gosh. 1135 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,200 Yeah. 1136 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,360 Let's move ahead with determination. 1137 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,600 Find a new direction and learn from your experience. 1138 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:14,600 Oh, boy. 1139 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,600 Okay. 1140 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:16,600 Well, yeah. 1141 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:22,240 This is giving me chills because obviously I know what happens in part two, but in a reading 1142 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,600 about money and investment hasn't paid off or you've lost money through no fault of your 1143 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:32,600 own except perhaps not seeing things accurately. 1144 00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:37,000 Cut your losses and conserve your resources. 1145 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,120 If the reading is about your job, the aid of cups may recommend pouring your heart and 1146 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,840 soul into an endeavor. 1147 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,320 Don't let distractions throw you off course. 1148 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,520 Sometimes this card advises leaving a job that no longer interests you. 1149 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:59,840 In a reading about love, this card can mean ending a relationship that's lost its spark. 1150 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:01,960 Oh, boy. 1151 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:08,080 Conversely, it may show you getting serious about a partnership, giving it your all, all 1152 00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,640 of your camo gear. 1153 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:19,160 You're no longer interested in casual flings and there is an extra excerpt. 1154 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:25,120 When you most feel like holding on to something, it is usually the best time to let go. 1155 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,120 Holy wow. 1156 00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,880 That was good. 1157 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,680 I can't believe you picked this walk away sign too. 1158 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,000 It's like blowing my mind. 1159 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:34,000 Okay. 1160 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,680 Should I read this little one while you're looking for the other person? 1161 00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:39,680 Yeah. 1162 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,680 Okay. 1163 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,840 So it's the Northern alligator lizard, by the way. 1164 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:44,840 Oh. 1165 00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,440 And all of the keywords are about the same, but there's this little story here. 1166 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:54,840 Read the alligator lizard shed her past self like a ghost behind her. 1167 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,320 That skin had to serve her well. 1168 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:03,120 It gotten her through plenty of scrapes and taken quite a few in the process. 1169 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,160 It had camo flushed her. 1170 01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,320 Okay. 1171 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:15,440 It had camo flushed her against the forest floor protecting her from sharp eyed hawks. 1172 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:23,000 She had insulated her as she bashed on the sun, dappled stones, but now it felt tight. 1173 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,080 It felt restrictive. 1174 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,000 She itched to be rid of it. 1175 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,480 She had outgrown it and so she stepped out of it, cast it aside. 1176 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,640 It no longer served her. 1177 01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:41,880 She moved on more vulnerable to the thorns and needles around her, but no longer constrained 1178 01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,080 by who she used to be. 1179 01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:45,080 Okay. 1180 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:46,080 All right. 1181 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,680 That camo flushed thing made me poop my pants a little bit. 1182 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,400 A little bit, a little bit. 1183 01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:52,400 Okay. 1184 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,400 Right. 1185 01:00:53,400 --> 01:01:01,000 So two of ones are keywords are developing goals, involvement in a creative project, taking 1186 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,120 action and choices. 1187 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:10,200 This card shows you taking action to accomplish something you feel passionately about, a creative 1188 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,920 project, a business or an adventure. 1189 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:20,200 You may have to make a choice between two options or bring two factors together to achieve 1190 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,040 success. 1191 01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:29,560 When the two of ones is reversed, it can indicate a delay or difficulty. 1192 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:34,760 You may be in for a surprise that requires you to make changes. 1193 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,520 Perhaps someone you relied on or believed in disappoints you. 1194 01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,200 Oh, it's kind of like the same vibe a little bit. 1195 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:42,920 A little bit. 1196 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:48,040 If you asked about money, this card may mean financing for a project gets delayed or an 1197 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,480 investment doesn't produce a return you'd hoped for. 1198 01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,920 Use caution in financial partnerships or contracts. 1199 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:03,160 In a reading about work, the reversed two can mean you'll have to work harder than you'd 1200 01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,680 expected to bring your dream to fruition. 1201 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,520 Sometimes it indicates you've gotten off track and need to take action to control a 1202 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,520 situation. 1203 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:19,440 You may have to reign in a colleague or contractor or another person may not hold up his or 1204 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,600 her end. 1205 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:27,320 In a reading about love, this card advises being upfront and honest with your partner. 1206 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,760 There was so much of that in the story, like so much honesty with your partner. 1207 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:33,760 Yeah. 1208 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:34,760 Yeah. 1209 01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:35,760 Yeah. 1210 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,960 If the relationship is rocky, you may have to make adjustments, especially if you've 1211 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,280 been too dependent or detached in the past. 1212 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:47,280 Yeah. 1213 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:48,280 Oh, boy. 1214 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,280 Oh, boy. 1215 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:54,720 Well, that was the card that jumped out in the beginning when you were shuffling. 1216 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:55,720 Yeah. 1217 01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,120 It was just like, hey, I'd go with the other one. 1218 01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,120 Yeah. 1219 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:04,360 That one said, there will be some more of these elements in part two. 1220 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:05,360 Oh, it's two. 1221 01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:06,360 Yeah. 1222 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:07,360 Oh, boy. 1223 01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:11,280 Oh, boy. 1224 01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,200 That is a red-tailed hawk on the card, by the way. 1225 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,600 Oh, it's a bird of prey. 1226 01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,720 What's this one talking about? 1227 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,560 Like hawks? 1228 01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:21,560 I think it is. 1229 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,800 Something about, yeah, we should go back. 1230 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,200 Now I'm curious. 1231 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,800 Yeah, protecting her from sharp-eyed hawks. 1232 01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:28,920 That is so weird. 1233 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,520 Are you guys surprised? 1234 01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:32,520 Wow. 1235 01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:33,520 Okay. 1236 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:34,520 Well, we're pretty cool. 1237 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:35,520 Okay. 1238 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,120 I'm like little bit. 1239 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,120 Oh, my gosh. 1240 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,280 I was thinking this the other day. 1241 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,280 So you know how we always would say, like, oh, we're not professional readers or anything 1242 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:47,280 yet. 1243 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,280 We're just learning. 1244 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,680 I feel like we've leveled up to maybe inner media. 1245 01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:53,680 Intermediate? 1246 01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:54,680 Okay. 1247 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:55,680 Terror? 1248 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:56,680 I'll take that. 1249 01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,600 I think we have, because we've done so many readings now for people at the festivals 1250 01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:01,600 and stuff. 1251 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:02,600 Yeah, that's true. 1252 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:08,600 We always just kind of say, along with the interpretation, whatever comes to our minds, 1253 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,560 that is terror reading. 1254 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,560 It really is. 1255 01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:12,560 Yeah. 1256 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:13,560 We're doing it. 1257 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,480 We're almost professionals. 1258 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:23,080 If you loved listening to that terror reading and want to see it because obviously, duh, 1259 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,080 we're cute. 1260 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,080 Yeah. 1261 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:31,140 Become a member of our Patreon, where a video of every terror read is uploaded with the 1262 01:04:31,140 --> 01:04:38,700 ad-free version of the episode each week, which is going to start feeling more significant. 1263 01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:41,180 Very soon. 1264 01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:46,220 Those videos typically have a lot of extras in them as well that we cut out of the regular 1265 01:04:46,220 --> 01:04:47,220 episode. 1266 01:04:47,220 --> 01:04:50,780 So you get to feel like you're behind the scenes a little bit. 1267 01:04:50,780 --> 01:04:53,420 Lowell that. 1268 01:04:53,420 --> 01:04:58,620 Patreon for those of you that maybe are wondering what the hell is that? 1269 01:04:58,620 --> 01:04:59,620 Exactly. 1270 01:04:59,620 --> 01:05:00,620 Please. 1271 01:05:00,620 --> 01:05:06,580 It's a monthly subscription with a range of price points and benefits. 1272 01:05:06,580 --> 01:05:12,620 Every member gets a personalized welcome card, a shout out in an upcoming episode and 1273 01:05:12,620 --> 01:05:19,020 exclusive bonus episodes and a lot of other things, some of which we don't even know about 1274 01:05:19,020 --> 01:05:20,020 yet. 1275 01:05:20,020 --> 01:05:24,460 A lot of other things like a mini terror reading in your welcome card. 1276 01:05:24,460 --> 01:05:29,780 And if you want a special shout out, if you want us to say something different other than 1277 01:05:29,780 --> 01:05:35,220 your name or something, you'll have to message us directly on Patreon and let us know. 1278 01:05:35,220 --> 01:05:36,220 Do it. 1279 01:05:36,220 --> 01:05:42,460 If you can't support us monetarily, no worries because the easiest ways to support are absolutely 1280 01:05:42,460 --> 01:05:44,100 free. 1281 01:05:44,100 --> 01:05:48,140 Tell everyone and anyone you come into contact with about us. 1282 01:05:48,140 --> 01:05:52,500 Tell your dog walker about us because they need a podcast to listen to while they're 1283 01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:53,900 walking your dog. 1284 01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:55,420 Or your barista. 1285 01:05:55,420 --> 01:05:56,420 Yeah. 1286 01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:57,900 Or bartender. 1287 01:05:57,900 --> 01:06:03,980 Or you can leave us a five star review on any platform where you're listening to us. 1288 01:06:03,980 --> 01:06:09,980 If you're not listening to us on Apple, that's fine, but go there and leave us one there 1289 01:06:09,980 --> 01:06:13,420 too because that's the big one. 1290 01:06:13,420 --> 01:06:14,740 That's the big boy. 1291 01:06:14,740 --> 01:06:16,740 Just sprinkle those stars all around town. 1292 01:06:16,740 --> 01:06:17,740 You know what I mean? 1293 01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:19,740 Yes. 1294 01:06:19,740 --> 01:06:23,700 If you... 1295 01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:28,940 If you have any true crime paranormal or witchy stories to submit for a listener appreciation 1296 01:06:28,940 --> 01:06:38,700 episodes called the creepy people chronicles, please email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com 1297 01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:40,540 or you can also use... 1298 01:06:40,540 --> 01:06:46,380 We have a handy, dandy little Google contact form you can fill out and tell us your story. 1299 01:06:46,380 --> 01:06:49,540 And a link to that would be in the episode description. 1300 01:06:49,540 --> 01:06:55,060 You're always welcome to remain anonymous if you write in with a story and remember your 1301 01:06:55,060 --> 01:07:02,300 stories do not have to be coming from the Pacific Northwest specifically if you want to share. 1302 01:07:02,300 --> 01:07:09,700 If there is a story from somewhere in Europe or Asia or Africa, just naming the continents 1303 01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:10,700 now. 1304 01:07:10,700 --> 01:07:13,180 Or Russia? 1305 01:07:13,180 --> 01:07:17,740 I'm kidding because way back in the day I was confused about Russia and Asia, okay? 1306 01:07:17,740 --> 01:07:25,020 Follow us on all of the socials if you don't want to miss out on photos of our tarot cards 1307 01:07:25,020 --> 01:07:29,740 or beautiful alter setups which today there is a lot of fire next to me. 1308 01:07:29,740 --> 01:07:31,740 There is a lot of pyro techniques. 1309 01:07:31,740 --> 01:07:32,740 Yes. 1310 01:07:32,740 --> 01:07:34,060 Katelyn went a little crazy. 1311 01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:37,800 And she also put all the fire on her side now and it had to convince her to put one little 1312 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,500 candle on my side. 1313 01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:42,500 No, I just thought was how I arranged it. 1314 01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:45,220 It wasn't to keep the fire away from you. 1315 01:07:45,220 --> 01:07:47,220 It all looks like it. 1316 01:07:47,220 --> 01:07:51,340 I would think you would thank me, but whatever dude. 1317 01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:57,420 And a lot of backstage shenanigans like arguing over fire. 1318 01:07:57,420 --> 01:08:02,940 You can find our website or our link tree in the description of this episode to check out 1319 01:08:02,940 --> 01:08:05,540 all of the fun that we have to offer. 1320 01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:10,380 And if you get confused and you go to the link tree when you really wanted the website, 1321 01:08:10,380 --> 01:08:14,380 you can still go to the website directly from the link tree. 1322 01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:16,380 There are so many links on the link tree. 1323 01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:19,500 There is links to the links. 1324 01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:22,500 Have a creepy last day. 1325 01:08:22,500 --> 01:08:24,940 See you next Tuesday. 1326 01:08:24,940 --> 01:08:28,300 Part two, Tuesday. 1327 01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:29,800 Do do do. 1328 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:30,800 [J Especially to the audience. 1329 01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:31,800 That's it!] 1330 01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:32,800 [A Mossab翌bub crunch] 1331 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:34,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1332 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:39,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1333 01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:41,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1334 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1335 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1336 01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1337 01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1338 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1339 01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:57,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1340 01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:59,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1341 01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:01,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1342 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1343 01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1344 01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:07,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1345 01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1346 01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1347 01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:13,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1348 01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1349 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:17,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1350 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:19,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1351 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1352 01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:23,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1353 01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:25,800 [A nice andgovic song] 1354 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,920 You probably already know where Birdie ambassadors. 1355 01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:34,300 We wanted to take a quick moment to tell you a little bit more about this awesome product. 1356 01:09:34,300 --> 01:09:38,480 Birdie is the modern personal safety alarm made for women by women. 1357 01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:43,720 In a situation where you feel threatened or unsafe, you can simply activate Birdie's 1358 01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,760 loud siren and flashing light to create a diversion! 1359 01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:53,560 Birdie is perfect to carry anytime because the device is lightweight and comes in a variety 1360 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:54,560 of colors. 1361 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:55,900 So important. 1362 01:09:55,900 --> 01:10:02,700 Use our Ambassador link and coupon code, PNW, Haunts and Homicides, to receive 10% off 1363 01:10:02,700 --> 01:10:04,200 your purchase. 1364 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:09,140 Like our social media handles, the coupon code is all spelled out no special characters. 1365 01:10:09,140 --> 01:10:14,120 You can find the link and promo code in our show notes or PNW, Haunts and Homicides link 1366 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:15,120 tree. 1367 01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:16,460 Have a safe stay! 1368 01:10:16,460 --> 01:10:17,600 (soft music) 1369 01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,200 (bright music)