[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is where we start to unpack what I talked about in part one,
where he's often referred to as one of the serial killers
with the conscience.
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
You did say that.
I kind of lost track of that during all the horrific things
I was hearing.
Right.
Yeah.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hi, Cassie.
Hi, Caitlyn.
Hi, creepy people.
Hello.
I never get sick of that.
Hopefully you don't either, creepy people.
Yeah.
If you're new to our creepy corner of the world,
this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about True Crime,
the paranormal, and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest.
That's what PNW stands for, FYI.
If you're not, sticky.
We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode
for a little deeper insight into our topic.
So make sure to stick around if you're into that.
Yeah.
Or if you're not into that, stick around anyway.
Do away.
Mm-hmm.
This week, we're back to telling the backstory of Wayne
Adam Ford.
But we're going to get into the crimes
that would make headlines following
his eventual arrest as well.
I'm not really going to preamble this.
OK.
We're just going to dive right in.
So--
Yay.
Let's go.
Let's dive.
Go for a dive.
She's not reaching for her glass.
I felt like I was giving her a strong enough cue there.
[LAUGHS]
To take a big sip?
Yeah.
And keep it close.
Let's recall that he's in his drunkenly wearing camo
to stalk my wife in the front yard phase of life.
Right.
So things are obviously about to start running downhill.
I can't imagine why.
Yeah.
Where is this going?
Yeah.
I really hope that was obvious.
I don't feel like I want to have to explain that.
If that sounds like something you want to do,
maybe check your life.
Yeah.
It's time to re-evaluate.
Respectfully.
1983 and 1984 were particularly rough years.
Actually, you should probably just assume moving forward
just rough years if I'm being totally honest.
Got it.
OK.
Just one example.
When he complained about depression
to someone in his unit, he was hospitalized
in the Navy's psychiatric ward in San Diego.
His condition did not improve after his short-term stay,
which shouldn't be surprising because three days
is really enough time to solve anyone's serious problems,
even three months, in some cases, I'd argue.
Like--
Yeah.
If anything, his behavior only grew worse,
because that's usually how these things work.
Yeah, especially if you don't get the help you need.
Eventually, at some point, after Kelly asked him for a divorce,
she did begin dating the coworker he'd been jealous of, too.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
Ooh.
Uh-huh.
That stinks.
So I'm sure in his mind, all of his greatest insecurities
and worries are essentially coming to life.
Yeah.
I feel like he kind of put that on himself, though.
I was just going to say, I feel like you kind of manifested
that into existence.
She's like, you know, I never really
looked twice at this guy, but now all of a sudden,
next to you, out here in the yard in your camo,
and just camping out.
Crazy eyes.
Yeah.
He's looking pretty good, actually.
Yeah.
I could see that.
It's roughly around this time that Wayne began stalking Kelly.
Obviously that doesn't seem like it's going to end well.
But thankfully, all indications are that it didn't last for long
once their divorce was finalized.
Oh, OK.
Good.
Got to get that paperwork.
I mean, shitty that he stalked her at all,
because that shits terrifying.
Yeah.
Don't love that.
I mean, it would be great if that was
because Wayne actually got the help that he clearly needed
for his increasingly declining mental health.
But in actuality, it was due in large part,
if not entirely, to his transfer to Okinawa, Japan.
Oh, so he went like super far away.
So he was like, that stalking thing,
that's going to be a little much from here.
Yeah.
It's pretty hard to pull that off.
God.
OK.
Yeah.
So one way or another, that was done.
Thank goodness for her.
I know.
After just a few short weeks went by, not much had changed.
In fact, he had another episode of a sort of medical and psychiatric
combination.
And this is where my thought is, what's
happening in a person's mind can eventually
take a serious toll on the physical body, like my ex-did on my hairline?
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
It was like I was dealing with male pattern baldness a little bit.
Just losing my hair.
That's all stress.
Yeah, zero stress.
Do not recommend.
It wasn't until 1984, after several transfers and unsuccessful attempts
to treat his badly worsening physical and mental health,
that he was diagnosed with BPD.
Bipolar disorder.
Yes.
I knew it.
Yeah.
Not that that's a good thing.
I just was proud that I knew what it meant.
No, I mean, it's exciting to be correct.
Yeah.
I get it.
Then in January of 1985, he was honorably discharged
following his less than stellar service record
with the US military, which honestly,
I was kind of embarrassed when I got to the end of this
because I had to read and reread the source material
to confirm repeatedly.
But I did assume that his problematic behavior
was just going to escalate to the point
where he would end up being discharged dishonorably.
But I guess not.
He held it together just enough for just long enough
to eek out the honorable discharge.
Wow.
He eek, eek, right out of there.
From there, he took odd jobs to make ends meet
following his discharge, which is arguably one of the most
innocuous but gross words ever.
Discharge?
Yes.
Yeah, makes you think of nasty vaginal discharge
or penile discharge.
Oh, boy.
Sorry, everybody.
OK.
In 1986, at the age of 24, he moved to Garden Grove, California,
which is a really cute name for a place.
And I hate how these guys just ruin everything.
I was going to say it sounds very pleasant.
Yeah.
It's at this point in the timeline
that Wayne not only meets a new love interest,
and the two would actually eventually
move to San Clemente together.
But he is also arrested for brutally attacking a sex worker.
Oh my god.
OK.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's getting real here.
All right.
He's got a lot going on.
This relationship would be a tumultuous one,
but it didn't fizzle out fully until around 1991.
And that is like five years too long.
I would argue.
Did you see me trying to math in my head?
I did.
How long did she put up with him for?
I am looking at the notes, and I can see the two dates
and can confirm.
It's a little bit confusing to parse this all out as well,
just because many of the women he had relationships with,
shocker, aren't super keen to be associated with him in the aftermath?
Or at least that's what I gather, because a lot of them
did interviews at one point or another,
and they were anonymous.
And there's also some other things, but we're not there yet.
So just--
I'm not surprised.
I don't think we should be surprised that they're like,
yeah, let's talk about my serial killer ex-boyfriend.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
Yeah, no thank you.
Right?
Never.
Yeah, no thanks.
Hashtag, never Bundy.
Yeah.
Swipe left, on Bundy.
It's a couple of years later that Wayne meets Elizabeth
at a karaoke bar and the two hit it off.
What bothers me about this is she was 19.
Oh.
And I don't know how she was able to get into bars.
Was it a bar bar?
Was it like a food?
It's like--
Please, totally clear to me.
So maybe that's all that is.
And I'm making something out of nothing.
Or fake idea or--
Yeah, that was very popular in the '80s.
I have it on good authority.
Or maybe they just didn't even card, you know?
A lot of places, I think that was kind of the common practice,
because they're like, well, listen, 19-year-old money
spends just as well as the rest y'alls.
She looks old enough.
Yeah.
Old enough for what?
Singing karaoke.
Oh, it's going to say--
like, you remember that scene in Superbad?
Shhh, party.
This new relationship also quickly devolves
into an abusive pattern as had been the case with Kelly
before she eventually left him, as well as seemingly
every other woman before and since.
So that is the pattern is that it's a pattern of abuse.
So a pattern of patterning of abuse.
Pattern of he's the problem.
Yeah.
The escalation of the abuse did not stop
the couple from aloping to Las Vegas in 1994.
Now, did you know there's a difference
between aloping in Las Vegas and aloping to Las Vegas?
I have no idea what you're saying.
I looked it up.
You're saying the same words, right?
That's what I thought.
But there was a little voice in the back of my head that said,
they're not the same.
Yeah, grammar nerd.
What?
I looked it up.
So if you are in this city where you then
ilope because you're basically just staying in the same city
and you're aloping in the sense that you're not having a wedding,
OK.
That is aloping in Las Vegas.
If you alope to Las Vegas, you are somewhere in California
as these lovebirds were.
And then you're going to Vegas to alope.
I get it.
Yeah.
Fun fact.
Isn't really that fun.
But it is a fact.
Foring facts with Taylor.
Thank you.
At the time, she was 21 and he was 32.
The couple had a son in December of 1995.
But unfortunately, it did nothing to curb the abuse.
If anything, at a time when this young woman was perhaps
the most vulnerable that she had been in her adult life,
it arguably grew far worse.
He pushed her sexual boundaries, seemingly
wanting control of her.
And she may have actually inadvertently reinforced
his desires and expectations.
And this is not victim blaming at all.
She's not responsible for what he might have incidentally
misconstrued in his own completely disturbed mind.
But some of the things that she did at that point
in their relationship may have let him think that these behaviors
were acceptable.
Oh, no.
And I think she's just very young.
She's vulnerable as just a 21-year-old woman
who's dating a significantly older man.
But she's also now pregnant with their first child.
So before they eventually split in July of 1996,
and while she was midway through her pregnancy,
Wayne raped her following an argument.
And that was at some point in 1995,
though it doesn't appear that they called it quits for good
right away.
They were on again, off again, for much of 1995 and 1996.
And it doesn't appear their eventual divorce
was final until some time later, quite a few years later.
Actually, their divorce papers were sealed once he was in law
enforcement custody, which obviously just
not coming to later as well.
But more of that, I don't really
want to talk about my serial killer ex.
Oh, right.
OK.
Though she was extremely wary of protecting their son
in October 1997, Elizabeth took their young son
to a pumpkin patch in California
so that Wayne could invite his friends
along to meet their son.
Oh, pumpkin patch.
I know, spooky season.
There are so many reasons why this case--
I've actually had it on my radar for a little while.
But all of a sudden, the star is aligned.
And I think the pumpkin patch, that's just for two
at its timing, was spooky season.
But there's something else, and I think you'll see why.
Oh.
I have to think she might have been unaware
that following their initial break up
and leaving with their young son in tow
that Wayne had not only struggled to hold down a job,
but that he had also been arrested for animal cruelty.
What?
Ooh, dick.
Yes.
So I think you can tell what trigger warning is appropriate here.
And if you want to skip this part of the story,
it's fairly brief, so you should be missing only maybe
a minute or two.
And I've actually taken a lot of the details out
because I know that they would be particularly upsetting
to you right now.
I'm scowling.
I know.
Well, my dog is dead, Kate Len.
I know.
It's literally the first thing I thought about.
I read this on the plane to Austin.
And I was like, mother fuck, I am too deep into this.
I am not starting over.
So I have sanitized this particular section
of some of the details that would have made editing perhaps
a bit of a challenge.
OK.
Thank you.
Just remember that when you read this or you're hearing it,
and you're like, this is so fucking awful.
And I'm like, it's so much worse.
OK.
At the time, he was working as a tow truck driver.
The best I can decipher, it appears
that the animal in question was one of his employers guard dogs
and lived onside at the tow yard.
And according to some accounts, both of the dogs
were barking at all hours.
They're guard dogs.
At the time, Wayne was living next to the tow yard.
Wayne alleged that he had repeatedly
warned the owners that he would kill the dog
if it stepped foot on his property.
Wow.
He worked for these people?
Yep.
I did not know that in my initial reading of the account,
but I've had to-- yay.
Read about it several times now.
So cool.
Yeah, that's what I came to understand.
Great employee.
Yes.
Those may not have been his exact words,
but he did mean it, whatever he said at the time, unfortunately.
He was supposedly caring for his ex's dog
and feared that it would be hurt by the aggressive animal
if it intruded onto his property.
Which seems like a very convenient excuse.
She didn't trust you with her kid.
I'm not sure why she would have left her dog with you,
but whatever.
Interesting.
When this all played out as poorly as you might think,
in the end, and the dog from the tow yard
died by Wayne's hand or rather gun,
he was sentenced to just five days jail time for killing it.
Of the incident, his former boss stated,
he was upset because the dog was barking.
That man declined to give his name, by the way,
so not just women declining to be associated with him.
Makes sense.
Quoting further from the bus, he kept firing rounds
in the dog after it was dead.
It's unclear whether he actually served the time
for killing the dog.
Why?
He should be in jail forever.
I mean, spoilers.
For the dog, though.
Yeah.
Wayne's mental health had seriously declined
as has probably become abundantly clear.
I hope.
Yeah.
If you're shooting over killing a dog, something is wrong with you.
Just a thought.
His frustration over his failed marriage,
living in a trailer without his son
surrounded by the ever-present grinding noise
of his new professional endeavor,
working at a cement plant as a truck driver,
whatever it might have been, he was really actually
beginning to snap.
Then in October of 1997, Wayne decided
to pick up a hitchhiker.
Oh, OK.
Yeah.
And the hitchhiker was the murderer, right?
No.
Yeah.
So the pumpkin patch thing wasn't the only thing
happening in October.
This young woman was in her early 20s
and had dark brown hair.
He introduced himself as Adam, which was an alter ego.
Was it?
Yep.
Which is never a good sign.
No.
Very few people can pull off that kind of nonsense.
And let's just say he's a far cry from Yonsei
calling herself Sasha Fierce.
OK?
Like, no.
Maybe having introduced her to an alter ego
was his way of disassociating from his actions.
It doesn't seem too far-fetched, but even
if I was a licensed forensic psychologist,
I've certainly never spoken to the man.
So it's hard to say.
In any case, what could have started off
as a consensual encounter, though I tend to doubt it,
quickly became rough, resulting in Wayne choking her.
He stabbed her repeatedly with a hunting knife
before beheading and dismembering her.
Well, holy shit, that escalated real quickly.
So he was planning this, right?
Like, I don't know if he was planning the entire thing,
but he had a knife handy?
I mean, there's definitely--
there's an element of premeditation.
We'll say that.
Because only her torso was discovered in the Ryan slew,
just north of Ureca, California, she remained unidentified
even after additional remains were discovered
in January of 1998 on a different beach.
She had likely died less than a handful of days prior
to the initial discovery of her remains.
Then, almost exactly a year later, down to the day,
in October of 1998, another young woman's remains
were discovered, that of Patricia and Tames.
Wayne was still working as a truck driver at this time.
Patricia had been an upper middle class college student
until she dropped out.
Since then, she had been working as a sex worker
and struggling with substance abuse.
A friend stated that she had gotten really into crystal meth,
and it had since become her primary objective
to support that habit, which is generally the case.
That is what we call addiction.
After Wayne and Patricia came to an agreement regarding
the terms of the intended encounter,
she joined him in the sleeper cabin of his truck.
However, Wayne went off script when he began strangling her,
eventually killing Patricia.
Her body was found in an aqueduct in San Bernardino, California.
She was 29 years old at the time of her death,
which would be determined at some point in the course
of the investigation to have taken place in Hesperia, California,
sometime after she was picked up in Victorville.
The entire distance she traveled between getting picked up
her death and the callous disposal of her body was roughly,
it was just under 40 miles.
So that's not a long trip.
When authorities arrived at the scene,
it was immediately readily apparent
that the young woman had been murdered.
Oddly, one of her breasts had been removed
and could not be located.
Oh, why is that a thing?
It's a really good question.
Excuse the turn of phrase here,
but we're going to put a pin in that for now.
OK, because first we need to circle back to the months of May,
on through September of that same year, 1998.
On June 2nd of 1998, near button willow, California,
another adorable fucking name town,
another young woman's body was found.
Tina Renee Gibbs, a Tacoma Washington native,
was 26 at the time of her death.
She had been killed on May 16th of 1998, near Las Vegas,
where she had been working as a sex worker.
Later in court, both her mother and stepfather
would reflect on her earlier years.
Long before she'd begun a relationship
with someone her parents didn't approve of
and eventually fallen into the trap of addiction.
As a teenager, she loved family camping trips
and even went along with her mother
to visit nursing home patients.
Oh, that's really sweet.
Just fuck me up.
Learning of her murder was surely one version of the nightmare
that they'd already envisaged for years.
I can't imagine what all had been going through their mind
prior to that.
It's hard to watch someone go down that path.
Yeah.
And then eventually, they probably stopped hearing from her
for a period of time and that's got to be difficult
but in a completely different way.
Those several months had passed between the first
and second murders.
In 1998, things began to escalate quickly.
Didn't they already escalate though?
Yeah, we're really kind of just in a pattern
of continuing escalation.
You know me, I hate escalators.
Can we just get off the fucking escalator?
You actually hate escalators and escalation.
Yes.
Yeah, accurate.
On September 25th, 25 year old Lynette Deon White,
a Fontana, California was killed in Ontario, California,
not to be confused with the one in Canada, just to be clear.
Or Oregon.
Yep.
There's Ontario all over.
All over the place.
That was before it's believed her body was thrust
from a moving vehicle into a ditch in Lodi, California.
Wow, how?
Not really sure.
It's not a visual that I personally want to dwell on.
Yeah, I don't want to visualize it, but I'm just like the,
how, how, the logistics of it did one person do that, you know?
Yeah, it's puzzling on that end and how they know that.
I want to think less about that.
Yeah.
She had been dead for several days when her body was discovered
as evidenced by the advanced state of decomposition
that would later be noted in the autopsy findings, which is pretty horrifying
for a number of reasons.
Not the least of which is that this is a human being.
You just brutally murdered and to be so incredibly callous
with how you then cast out her remains.
So I'm glad we kind of focused in on that same point there.
Yeah.
I don't get it.
I can't wrap my brain around that.
Pretty sure that's a good thing, but I hate it.
But I'm also considering what most of us, if we're familiar
with the city of Lodai, likely associated with, which is wine.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Which wine?
Lots of wine, actually.
It's funny you mentioned that.
Yeah.
Lots of wine.
So while Lodai is busy growing roughly 40% of the wine grapes
produced in the entire state of California, investigators
are busy using fingerprint analysis to identify this latest victim.
Is it important for you to know that Lodai is the wine grape capital
of the world, at least according to the city
of Lodai's local government website?
Not really.
I think it's the harsh contrast between these two aspects
of Lodai that are just hitting me in relation to this case.
And you know how your girl loves a fun fact?
Yeah.
You know, just to try to lighten the mood.
And if it has to do with wine so much the better.
It was better than your boring fact earlier.
Yeah.
Can we not make that a thing?
My boring fact?
I give boring facts all the time.
But here's the thing.
Okay, because seriously Lodai, maybe watch your back
because I feel as though there are some very well known wine
capitals that may be giving you some side eye.
Like, I don't know, Bordeaux, located in France,
Adelaide, the southern capital city of Australia.
Ooh, light.
That's the best I can do.
And then, you know, the capital city of Lodai,
the capital city of Lodai,
you know, sleep with one eye open.
(laughs)
Hopefully you've enjoyed this segment of Wine Facts
because it's about to get really dark here,
because there's a little bit more that we need to discuss
in relation to Lynette.
Unlike some of the other victims
that had been discovered up to this point,
Lynette's family stated that she was not actively involved
in any form of substance abuse
or sex work at the time of her death.
It shouldn't matter because of course that does
not make a victim less dead.
Lynette's mother stated that although Ford himself
had told investigators that she had engaged in sex work,
her daughter was actually just beginning
a new role in sales at the time of her death.
Aww.
Lynette had last been seen by a family member
on September 20th.
She was headed to a nearby store
to get milk for her baby.
Lynette had four children,
but this was her youngest at just nine months old.
She left to go to the store,
and then come back with the babies.
Mm-hmm.
Though her mother's comments had focused on
sharing the real story about who Lynette was,
her father wanted everyone to know
that he did not have a kind
or even vaguely neutral word to share
about his daughter's killer.
And as you might suspect,
he hoped that Ford would be shown no mercy,
saying, "I want to see him dead.
He's already dead to me."
Yeah.
But I mean, who could blame him?
Not only do these poor people have to come to grips
with the horrific tragedy of what happened to their daughter,
but I'm sure they're the ones who will have to explain it
to all of their daughter's children.
How do you process your own grief
when you're faced with such a gut-wrenching loss
and then help your grandchildren
to hopefully do the same in a way
that doesn't just rip your entire heart
and family apart?
As horrendous as all of this is,
there are still a few more grim details to wrap this case up.
In early November, 1998,
Wayne walked into a sheriff's station
in Northern California with his brother Rodney.
After initially confessing his crimes
to his brother the day prior,
Rodney had spent the remainder of the day
trying to convince his brother to turn himself into the authorities.
Wow.
Rodney.
It wasn't just his brother Rodney and his Bible
that he brought with him, though.
Uh-oh.
After tearfully confessing to the murders of four women,
he revealed a plastic bag containing a severed breast
that would later be identified
as belonging to his final confirmed victim,
Patricia and Thomas.
That's not what I thought you were going to say.
I forgot about that part.
Yeah.
I did say put a pin in it,
which if you have read as much about this case as I have,
I'm sorry because that's something I left out,
but it's really...
I don't want to know.
Yep. No, you don't.
No?
No? No, you don't.
Oh my gosh, Rodney and his brother had to hear all of this.
Yep.
And I don't know how much detail he went into with his brother
before he went to the authorities,
but just hearing like that your brother committed a crime
and I'm sure he knew it was murder.
Oh, he knew. Yeah.
Yeah. He definitely knew it was murder.
That's why he convinced him to turn himself in.
That's just crazy.
Yeah.
Wayne told authorities he turned himself in
so he wouldn't kill his ex-wife and leave his son in orphan.
Wow.
That kind of reminds me of not the mother's day.
He had a very severe mental health problems
and he tried to turn himself in a few times
because he didn't want to hurt somebody.
Yes. And that he was ashamed of what he was doing.
His anger was mostly directed against his wife.
But apparently he was only becoming angrier with her each day
for keeping their son from him.
His lengthy confession appeared by the assessment of law enforcement
to indicate that his remorse was earnest
and his willingness to share details of the crimes
as well as locations of various pieces of significant
forensic evidence seemed almost remarkable to them.
So it wasn't just like a fake confession type thing.
It was like he, I mean, he had a bag of evidence with him.
Right. And there was more that he turned over to them via
the statement that he made in his confession.
This is where we start to sort of unpack what I talked about in part one
where he's often referred to as like one of the serial killers
like with the conscience.
That's right. You did say that.
I kind of lost track of that during all of the horrific things I was hearing.
Right. Yeah. Who could blame you?
Honestly. I think it sounds like some of the local law enforcement
that spoke with him.
It's sort of, I don't know how to say it other than it almost was like
it was gaslighting them.
Kind of fucked them up a little bit because they're like,
how does somebody do this?
But also like he legitimately seems to understand
and actually be emotionally affected by the fact that it was
so clearly wrong.
And I don't know where I land on that.
It's, I wasn't there. I didn't see him confess.
But it's crazy confusing.
But you have to imagine that he did feel that way because he went
and confessed or like they weren't putting any heat on him or anything.
So yeah, I mean it's, I think it's a tough one.
It's not as black and white as probably a lot of what we read
and what we hear about would maybe lead us to believe.
Yeah, it's very confusing.
I don't know.
Doesn't make it any less horrible and he's a disgusting dickball.
Yeah, absolutely.
He is from under cheese.
Who?
He apparently even implicated himself into other murders,
San Bernardino and San Joaquin counties just in case.
Just in case.
It was the beginning of, say like the whole sentence.
Sometimes it's hard to like piece it together.
I usually can, but that's why I try to go back like at least a few words.
I was like, I want to say the whole thing again.
That would take eight.
He apparently even implicated himself into other murders
in neighboring San Bernardino and San Joaquin counties.
Damn.
He was held on murder charges in Humboldt County on a million dollars bail.
Oh my god, a million dollars.
That's a lot.
I mean, going back to 1998.
Yeah.
I mean, now I feel like that we wouldn't even think of that as really being as big of a deal.
I know the change spare change you have in a jar in your closet, right?
That's what I used to buy my townhouse.
No, I mean, it is crazy.
Obviously this was like 25 years ago, but it's cute.
You think you can get a townhouse for a million dollars.
Yeah, like a small one.
I was singing more like a shack in someone's backyard.
Oh, I mean, it's not quite that bad.
I'm exaggerating.
In the end, though he claimed to have killed only four women,
it's of course possible that there are more unconfirmed victims of Wayne Adam Ford.
Do you really think though?
Do you really think that he didn't confess to all of them?
I think it's interesting that there are two in these neighboring counties
that he implicated himself, you know?
And yet they are not confirmed victims of his.
Oh, right.
I do think that because of something we're going to talk about here towards the very end,
I think law enforcement is not quite done necessarily examining certain aspects of the case.
So it's possible that there could be more updates.
Okay.
So there was four confirmed two that he claimed he could have done.
Yeah, there's two that he's implicated in.
And that's a very particular choice set of four.
Yes, implicated.
So I'm not sure if he just mentioned having maybe run across someone that matched a description of another missing individual.
It could be that symbol, to be honest, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what the nature of that element, that segment of the conversation that they had with him was.
It's so hard to say.
I know.
I just felt like he was confessing so much.
He would just like confess to anything and everything he'd ever done.
Yeah.
And part of me was like, well, maybe it's better if I mean, I want everyone that he's harmed to be able to, you know,
get some form of justice, but maybe it's better if he doesn't rattle off.
You know, at a certain point, there's a number of serial killers that have claimed numbers far higher than what we can, I mean, even begin to substantiate.
And then it makes people just, you know, theorize and we've got these conspiracy theories that ultimately are not very helpful.
No. In keeping, keeping the case alive in a way that helps them to be solved.
You know, there's nothing practical about that.
That makes sense.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, he didn't seem like he'd be very boastful to lie, but who knows?
And I want you to remember that you said that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Though two of his victims remained unidentified initially, when his case went to trial, the jury found him guilty on four counts of first degree murder in 2006 and sentenced him to death.
So two of the victims weren't identified.
Oh, my goodness.
Okay.
He currently resides at the San Quentin State Prison in California.
As for his ex-wife, Kelly, according to an article dating back to April, 2021, she moved on with a man named Bob that she began dating after her split with Wayne.
They eventually married and had a child together.
However, from what I can tell, it seems like the couple didn't last.
That's based on that same article.
Sadly, she also stated that she had been diagnosed with a very aggressive form of cancer and was given about 18 months to live.
She talked about how she still carried a lot of guilt, but that at the time of her 2001 interview, she spoke out in hopes of helping someone in a similar situation.
Unfortunately, Kelly lost the battle with cancer and passed away in 2020.
No.
Given the fact that the divorce records from Wayne's other ex-wife, his marriage to Elizabeth, those records were sealed and her family has reportedly declined to comment publicly regarding Wayne's crimes,
or really much of anything else following his arrest.
There's not really any additional information or updates that I was able to find about her or their son that she raised with out-wing.
Gosh, hopefully they're just like in so much therapy and are doing so good.
Yeah.
Of course, by now he's an adult.
Yeah.
So it's funny because we look at these things in exactly the same manner because my next sentence, hopefully without the continued influence of his violent father, he has been able to grow into a mature and stable man.
I didn't pull at that thread. They have clearly tried to make an effort to keep themselves clear of...
I mean, even before he was arrested, I mean, years before, she was like, "I'm out."
Yeah.
So...
I get it, man.
Yeah.
I think it's understandable.
I found another article that shared a story about when Wayne had an encounter with a man that worked in a Christian book and music shop.
Remember, he took his Bible with him.
Right, okay.
Wayne really opened up to him about his struggles throughout his life up to that point,
and even revealed reportedly that he was very concerned that he didn't have a conscience.
Oh.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to share two statements that Wayne has made.
The first as the time of his arrest was fast approaching.
I hurt some people.
I don't want to hurt anyone anymore.
Once you see what I have in my pocket, you'll know.
This latter statement was made following his arrest.
Most serial killers are proud of their work.
Not me.
Well, that is just so...it's so crazy and sad.
Because like his life is ruined, he ruined so many other people's lives for literally no reason.
One last thing.
Maybe you'll recall earlier in the episode.
I said that two of his victims could not initially be identified.
Yeah.
Well, obviously up until now,
at least if you were paying attention and even if you were and you missed it, I've shared the names of three out of the four,
so you might have been a little confused.
Sadly, the very first woman he killed was a hitchhiker, who remained unidentified until just months ago.
Wow, months ago.
In June of 2023, Wayne's initial victim was the final of his confirmed victims to be identified.
Carrie and Cummings was identified using DNA profiling in combination with genealogy matching.
Wow, we're coming for you.
Finally, the 25-year-old Eugene Oregon native was identified through the partnership of the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office Cold Case Unit,
the California Department of Justice DNA Lab, and AUTHRUM Inc.
Wow, that is so cool.
Technology, man.
When she came back to 1997, Carrie had struggled with untreated mental illness.
When she refused to return home to her family, she stayed with friends in the area for a time.
These are the details that prevented Carrie from ever even being listed as a missing person or entered into any similar databases.
That's going to make it really hard to identify somebody if they're not even reported missing.
That didn't stop her family from trying to find her.
Wow, they searched the name-is-website when the internet was new.
Holy shit.
Remember, she went missing before Y2K.
Wow.
And they even hired a private detective at one point.
Now they can finally put her to rest with a proper burial.
It's crazy she was the first and then the last to be identified.
Yeah.
I was like, "How does that happen?"
But remember, it's the details of the crime.
There are so many factors.
The details of her background are what kept her from being even taken down as a missing person.
And then the details of the crime itself are what prevented them from being able to identify her because they found a torso.
Yeah.
Which is so horrific to think about.
Would you like to think about something else?
Yes, please.
Perhaps, to row?
I would love to think about some tarot.
Let's do it.
Okay.
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Hi everyone.
My name is Stine Fox.
I am the host of the Granger Baggins Podcast.
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On the Granger Baggins Podcast, we cover such topics as the old gods, witchcrafts, giants, tantra, and even more far-out topics such as homunculus and astro-theology.
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And don't worry, we did get more wine.
Well, of course.
Okay.
What's this fucker's name again?
Wayne Adam Ford.
Twatt Hwaffle.
Yeah, because his initials are W-A-F.
[laughs]
Get it.
Guys, you get it.
Do you get it?
Hwaffle?
Twatt Hwaffle.
Hwaffle.
We have our little alters set up over here, but there's no space.
I left no space for us to put the cards out.
So I'm going to...
She's cheating.
I'm going to...no, I'm not cheating.
That's so rude.
I'm spreading them out so I can do a pull.
Okay.
Page of Pinticle.
Pinticle.
I'm separating the two halves of the deck so that if we want to pull another one,
we know where we left off.
Okay.
Kind of fall colors.
Kind of goes with our vibe.
Looks like she has orange shoes.
Maybe they're red, I can't tell.
Yeah, they're like orangey red.
Yeah, and it looks like there's leaves on the ground, but those might be flowers, I don't know.
Anyway.
Hard to say.
Okay.
Page of Pinticles.
Our keywords are study, developing resources, naivety, curiosity, potential, and service.
Pages often represent the early stages of a matter or a time of study and gaining skills.
Some tarot packs picture the page of Pinticles as a young person gazing at a Pinticle as if trying to understand it.
Oh, interesting.
If this card represents an actual person, it's probably someone young, intelligent, hardworking, and ambitious.
I feel like that kind of just relates to all the women.
Yeah, maybe.
They were young, they were.
Yeah, and the page oftentimes is, we've talked about it before in other readings where it's kind of a gender-bending card, especially with the modern witch deck.
Because it's spoopy seasons, I wanted to do the modern witch deck.
And then, you know, witchiness happening behind us.
So, our eight.
The page of Pinticles can point to the everyday details of your life and advise you to take care of them.
This may refer to your work, possessions, or health.
In some cases, this card may indicate naivety on a financial or in a practical area.
You're learning how to live in the real world.
The page can also show you performing a service for someone.
In a reading about money, this card may refer to contracts or other paperwork related to money, possessions, or property.
The page upright may describe the early stages of a project when you're discussing possibilities, seeking financial support, or laying the groundwork.
And then, you're advised to learn all you can about a money matter.
If the reading is about your job, you may be preparing yourself for a career or a career change.
Oh, we did have, it was Lynette, who had just changed jobs.
She was starting in a new role in sales.
Oh, that's interesting.
She was in a position in business, health care, or the trades could be profitable.
Interesting.
He worked for that cement plant.
He did a great job.
He did have a bunch of different jobs.
He did.
He's kind of always changing jobs.
The page advises you to work hard and learn all you can in order to reach your goal.
In a reading about love, you may be more concerned with security, stability, and the practical aspects of a relationship than with romance.
This card can also indicate meeting a partner through work.
He was always driving.
Oh, oh, I don't like that.
I was thinking about kind of the girlfriends and how you said one of them at least stayed like way too long and...
Yeah.
I'm sure that was for stability reasons.
That's true.
I mean, I guess fear too could make you stay, but definitely fear.
A lot of it, I'm sure, was financial stability type of reasons?
Yeah, I would think so.
It's interesting that it picked up on this card that it just doesn't feel like has a lot of other parallels at least that what I'm thinking about.
I think after you finished, I immediately tried to forget everything you said.
Really?
From the story.
I was like, I'm having trouble recalling details from the story.
Yeah.
I think the thing that jumps out at me is there's so many phases of his life where it was like...
It says he's doing these odd jobs to make ends meet or he would get a job that he would get fired or he would screw up or whatever.
It's interesting.
Maybe it just picked up on that.
And I'm wondering if maybe holding the two ends of the deck out was a good move.
Maybe there's another card next to it that...
I don't know.
Yeah.
Why don't you look if that's what you're feeling.
I'm going to, but I'm going to read you this extra excerpt first.
It says what one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing.
Okay.
Well, like that really is.
Yeah.
With like the whole conscience thing, like you still did it.
Yeah, you can feel bad about it, but you still did it.
Yeah, I think that's really true.
That for me rings very true in this case.
Can you read that again?
What one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing.
Yeah.
I mean, good intentions are just that.
It doesn't mean a whole lot more than that.
Who knows if he ever did have any good intentions though?
I mean, he never had a conscience.
I mean, I think to me, I sort of, I sort of started to spiral because I was having that same
thought as I'm researching and writing this, but I sort of went back to you hear this all the
time where people start reading about like a sociopath, right?
Or you hear about this, a similar argument when somebody is a narcissist.
If you're concerned about it, you aren't one because they don't, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So like to me, it almost was like, I don't know, I go back and forth.
Is that something, can you like develop a conscience over time?
I, you know, just from like seeing how other humans are.
I mean, at that point, are you actually developing a conscience or are you, are these just learned behaviors?
Yeah.
Is the idea that there's a reward system for, you know, not killing people?
Is that just more appealing than having people like dislike you or do you really mean?
Yeah, it's interesting.
Interesting thoughts.
I don't like that.
I'm going to look at a card that was underneath here at the bottom of the deck.
Oh boy.
It's the five of swords in reverse.
Oh, okay.
So does that not just like look, it looks like a man kind of turning back and looking sort of?
I don't know if it's angrily or in a four-learn way.
It's hard to tell.
I mean, and in this instance, especially knowing what we do about this deck, I think that's actually supposed to be more of an endrogenous character.
Yeah, it's just like a masculine energy, you know?
But just, I mean, that's the picture that I get.
Yeah.
There's two other characters like in the foreground and there's two swords on the ground and then three that they're holding.
So everything that I was saying about the picture holds true when you look at the traditional deck.
So I'll show you this after.
Keywords are change, adjustment, loss, destruction, conflict, indecision and sadness.
Right on for this one.
The number five signifies change and this card shows the time of adjustment after a conflict of some kind.
Sometimes the fight stems from ideological or spiritual differences.
I could say that yes.
I do have some ideological and spiritual differences with the surely all of us do.
The writer, Wade Smith, Aquarian and some other decks show a soldier on the battlefield at the end of a fight.
The card asks, what have you won or lost?
Was it he a soldier?
He was.
I always say soldier.
I mean, he was actually in the Navy, I believe.
Yeah.
I was like trying to remember what you had said.
Reverse the five suggests pretty much the same thing as it does upright.
Thank you.
One of those.
When the card appears reversed in a reading, however, you may feel a great sense of remorse, regret and unhappiness.
Yeah.
Okay.
Holy shit.
I just got like the chills all over my body.
Definitely.
Remorse.
But is it genuine remorse or is he like, are you just magic at caught?
But he didn't get caught.
To me, this seems like right.
Yeah.
I do have had some kind of remorse because he didn't get caught.
He didn't offer any of that.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Sometimes it shows you making repairs or reparations after a conflict, trying to set things right
and learning from your suffering.
Did he ever try to do anything like for the family, is there anything like that?
I didn't see any indication of that necessarily.
But he did certainly make illusions too that like the reason why he turned himself in was that he didn't want to leave his son in orphan.
Right.
And so he's trying to take something that he's done horrifically wrong and not make it worse at least.
Yeah.
Reflecting on that, I don't.
Yeah, it's.
Oh, boy.
The reversed five can indicate losses after a fight, perhaps a legal matter or squabbling over an inheritance.
I don't think it's the latter.
Yeah, probably not.
In the end, no one really wins and you may experience regret.
It is interesting though that they said squabbling and that's kind of like a sibling thing.
And he like went with his brother.
Yeah.
That's such a good insight.
That's.
Thank you.
Squabbling, I really think of as being a word like when two siblings are in the back seat, like don't make me pull this car over.
Quit just squabbling back there.
Seriously.
Oh, shit.
This is just unreal.
If the reading is about your job, struggles with bosses or co-workers may cause hard feelings or impede your progress.
Yeah.
I'll say.
A conflict may damage your chances for advancement.
Like if you are institutionalized, conflicts with your employer, like when you, the dogs situation.
Yeah, that too.
Yeah.
That too he had so many conflicts in his own workplace.
Any had conflicts with his ex-wife's workplace.
Remember, he thought she was cheating with one of her co-workers and then they ended up getting together.
Yeah.
It says, perhaps causing you to change jobs under unfavorable circumstances, which understatement in this situation.
Okay.
In a reading about love, this card can indicate mourning the loss of a relationship or regretting a decision made in the heat of an argument.
Like maybe you got, you had a few too many.
You really tied one on and then you thought, I am literally going to put on all my camo gear and lay out on the lawn and wait.
That is just the craziest thing.
Yeah.
Regretting a decision made in the heat of an argument.
Wow.
Well, you said they were arguing too when he did the bad thing.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Perhaps you feel betrayed, which is certainly something that he expressed.
In some cases, however, it can suggest trying to repair the damage and make constructive changes, perhaps with the help of therapy.
Yeah.
Mental health is important.
Wow.
Can't believe it.
It's something about therapy and we're just like talking about mental health.
Oh, my God.
Okay.
So here is, for me, the significance of kind of the imagery, but also numerically.
So there are two women.
They have their backs to this person who's holding the swords.
And remember, there were two victims that were initially unidentified.
Yeah.
They're both now identified.
We have three swords that this person was holding onto and up until very, very recently.
His first victim was not identified.
Oh, yeah.
Three of them.
It was almost like it was still.
Yeah.
Do you think there's a fifth?
I don't.
I don't think so.
I mean, you wouldn't.
None of us would know.
But yeah, I mean, it's so hard to say the other thing is I think there's, you know,
there's two that it's like they're still.
It's like people, they're figures that are standing, right?
And then there's two that are on the ground.
And it's like those two are the two that were unidentified.
I don't know.
It's just he has four victims, right?
And it's the five of swords.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'm just seeing a lot of significance there with kind of where the swords are positioned.
And yeah.
Well, I mean, he had more than just the victims that he murdered.
He had rape victims.
Right.
Who God knows what the fuck else he did.
Yeah.
Who?
Anybody else feel like they need a shower?
Or is that just me?
Who loved listening to that tarot reading and want to see it because obviously, duh,
we're cute.
Yeah.
Become a member of our Patreon where a video of every tarot read is uploaded with the ad-free
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Hmm.
Very soon.
Those videos typically have a lot of extras in them as well that we cut out of the regular
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So you get to feel like you're behind the scenes a little bit.
Lowell that.
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Have a creepy ass day.
See you next Tuesday.
Whenever we recover from this, I don't know.
We gotta go.
See this fucker again.
Hopefully you don't confess to any more crimes.
No, thank you.
Unless it's gonna help somebody, I guess.
I was like actually confess more.
Yeah, confess more, but also don't do the thing in the first place to have to confess to
it.
Yeah.
You know, does that make sense?
Yes, I agree.
I concur.
Okay, but really though.
Bye.
Do you want me to splash some cold wine on you?
Yeah.
Of course.
I'd like to just check it and throw my part.
Better than butt-chugging.
I was just thinking that face-chugging better than butt-chugging.
Outtake, outtake, anyone?