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Welcome back to Communication Breakdown, a new podcast from the Observatory on Corporate

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Reputation.

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Thanks for joining us.

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I'm Steve Dowling in Silicon Valley.

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And I'm Craig Carroll in New York City.

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Each week, Steve and I take a look at strategies companies are using to shape headlines and

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sometimes save their skins.

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It's a post game show for PR Pros.

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This week, comms in the time of economic anxiety, some do's and do's for navigating tariffs

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and layoffs.

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First up, Ford Motor Company CEO Jim Farley has put a face and a voice on the business community's

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concerns over Donald Trump's economic plans, starting with those tariffs on aluminum and

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steel.

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Unless you plan to drive a toboggan, those are pretty essential components of any automotive

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product.

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Ford gets about 10% of its steel from Canada.

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Speaking this week at the Wolf Research Conference on Auto Technology, Farley said Trump's

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proposed tariffs would be in his words, quote, "devastating."

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So far, what we're seeing is a lot of costs and a lot of chaos.

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If you look at the tariffs, let's be real honest, long term, a 25% tariff across the Mexico

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and Canadian border will blow a hole in the US industry that we have never seen.

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It would be on to say that Trump's promise to roll back the Biden-era inflation reduction

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act would put many production jobs at risk.

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The IRA established tax incentives for electric vehicle battery production, creating some

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200,000 American jobs so far.

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Farley said Trump's promise changes would hit workers at border-simile plants in Ohio,

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Michigan, Kentucky, and Tennessee, all states Trump carried in last year's election with

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help from blue-collar workers.

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And those comments come on the heels of Ford's earning call February 5th when Farley

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told analysts the company could weather a few weeks of tariffs but sounded the alarm about

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the domestic impact of a drawn-out trade war.

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There's no question that tariffs at 25% level from Canada, Mexico if they're protracted

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would have a huge impact on our industry, with billions of dollars of industry profits wiped

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out and adverse effect on the US jobs as well as the entire value system in our industry.

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There's would also mean higher prices for customers.

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Issuing such dire warnings, Farley's breaking with his peers in Detroit and most of the rest

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of corporate America who have largely avoided painting such a bleak picture.

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The story here is not that Ford sees the tariffs devastating their business, it's that they've

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decided to say it out loud and in public.

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Compare Farley's approach to that of Mary Barra, CEO of General Motors, who was on stage

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after his remarks about costs in chaos.

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Farley has been emphasizing preparedness, saying GM has contingency plans to avoid short-term

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impacts of tariffs and she's been saying she's very "goal aligned with Trump."

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No talk of job losses are blowing a hole in the auto industry.

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All these words are being chosen very carefully in Dearborn and Detroit, Craig.

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Who's got the right approach?

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Steve, it's not even a question.

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Mary Barra is playing this summer smarter.

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Ford's moved to me just wasn't acknowledging the impact of tariffs.

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It was deciding to make a public fight and what you do that, you're committed, you can't

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walk it back without looking weak and you can't escalate it without increasing risk.

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Meanwhile GM's approach, very clearly contingency planning, quiet confidence, no panic and that's

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what stability looks like.

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Yeah, I still think we need to give Farley credit for saying what other CEOs don't seem to

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want to say, at least in public.

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I can see a couple of factors playing into this strategy.

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Trump doesn't like to hear opposition to his ideas, but at the same time we know he gauges

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his own success in part by the economy and specifically the stock market.

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If Farley's making public comments and that helps fuel the conventional wisdom that tariffs

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will hurt American workers and companies bottom lines, which economists all agree on, there's

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I've seen, that could help his cause.

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Of course, the line of thinking banks on other business leaders joining the chorus and

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so far that hasn't happened.

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Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying, you know, Farley's definitely taking a stand where

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others are staying silent and there's something to be said for that, but I wonder if Ford is

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gambling on a collective outcry that just isn't materializing and if other CEOs don't

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follow his lead then what?

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You know, he's out there alone taking all the heat while everyone else is watching from

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the sideline.

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So I see it as a big bet.

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I think that one of the things we need to keep in mind is that Farley was not CEO during

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most of Trump's first term and it's not clear that they have a personal relationship or

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if Farley has any direct access at all.

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Maybe he does, but he's been pretty circumspect when asked about his dealings with the White House.

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So taking this public route might be his only option or might be seen as his best option.

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I'm sure he'd prefer to be invited to dinner and make the case person to person, but that

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doesn't seem to be happening.

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To your point, also, I think it is a gamble.

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And one of the problems here, if they're betting on other business leaders joining the

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chorus is that not enough people may be getting this message.

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The other business leaders are quiet and Farley did make similar comments on CNBC after

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Ford's earning call, but otherwise he's talking off camera and that's making the coverage

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less impactful.

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You know, I mean, Farley might be banking on Trump's market sensitivity, but Trump has also

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shown he's willing to let short-term market pain play out.

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If he believes it's going to strengthen his broader agenda, so the question is whether

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Ford's messaging resonates enough to shift the broader narrative or if it's just going

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to put a target on its back.

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Well, yeah, and I think that short-term is the operative phrase there because you see both

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Ford and General Motors saying that they can absorb the impact of short-term tariffs.

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I think what they're basically saying is if this is just a negotiating tactic, like we

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can deal with it, but it's the longer term that Farley is warning about and I haven't seen

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Mary Barra say anything to contradict him.

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That is where the problems are going to come in for Ford, for the entire auto industry,

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for American workers.

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I think also we need to keep things in perspective here.

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Like, he's not exactly going hammer and tongs against Trump.

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One of the trade publications I saw said Farley went gloves off with Trump.

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It didn't feel that strong to me.

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But it's certainly farther than any other business leader has gone in criticizing a Trump policy.

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And I think that's what has made people pay attention in any other universe.

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I think we would just call this making a counter-argument.

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So, I suspect that Ford is now trying to gauge how this message goes over with the White

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House and also with the broader audience.

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And maybe they need to try getting a little more visibility, but I suspect more likely they're

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going to look to trade organizations like the US Chamber of Commerce, the National Association

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of Manufacturers to carry the water at least for a time, or maybe until another opportunity

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comes up what we see, how the implementation of this tariff threat actually goes forward.

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And Ford's a member of both of those groups and they have been speaking out.

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Yeah, I would say if Ford was planning to align with the Trade Association, you think they

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would have done that before Farley spoke out.

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Now it's just a lot harder to fall back on them.

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Ford had to know where the groups like the Chamber of Commerce and in a-m stood on this.

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Those conversations happened well in advance.

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So if they went out on their own, Ford went out on their own.

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That just tells me one of two things.

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They wanted to take the lead and own the message, or they didn't think that the trade groups

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were pushing hard enough.

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But for me, here's the thing.

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If Farley was hoping for other CEOs to follow, that hasn't happened.

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And if he's expecting the trade groups to pick up the baton, after made his point,

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well, now it just kind of looks like Ford went rogue and it's tough to walk this back and say,

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actually we're with the industry on this.

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So I don't know, stepping out this far ahead of everyone.

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I think the industry is with them.

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I don't see anybody saying, you know, Ford is unnecessarily sounding the alarm here.

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I think it's really just about speaking up and taking this route where we're publicly,

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essentially saying, let's have a public examination of what the impact of this policy would be.

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And I think that that's healthy and too Ford's credit.

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He's not sugar-coding the risks to his company, to the auto industry and the US economy.

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And that's important because there's not a lot of speaking truth to power these days and

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we need people to set a better example.

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We should point out also that he has framed his comments in a constructive way, I think.

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He talks about the overall industry as much as he does Ford specifically.

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And he talks about American competitiveness.

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And one of his arguments is, I think, something that you would think would resonate with the

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White House, which is penalizing Canada and Mexico would be a gift, as he puts it, to South

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Korea, Japan and the EU, whose automakers would not be subject to those tariffs.

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And Farley says it would be one of the biggest windfalls for those companies ever.

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So does Trump turn on the TV and see Farley or hear him read about his comments, turn to

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his trade representative and say, "Can't so the tariffs?"

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No, no chance.

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But if he can start to chip away, help turn the conventional wisdom on tariffs, then maybe

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this will have been worth it for Ford.

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So I'd say, look, he's basically telling Trump, "Hey, you could make strengthening the American

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industry as signature accomplishment."

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But that's great.

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Those are his words.

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Yeah, it was great.

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Does Trump even want that carrot?

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I mean, Trump doesn't make decisions based on industry logic.

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He makes them based on personal political considerations.

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And right now, tariffs for this narrative.

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So--

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Yes, but think about when he first announced the Canada, Mexico tariffs.

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It was.

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Yes.

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And, you know, that was a Saturday night.

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And by Monday, he was talking about a delay.

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So reactions do matter.

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I think that we're used to Trump doubling down and that certainly does happen.

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But there are, I think, real world reactions, especially real world market reactions that

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get his attention.

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Well, I got to say, that's one thing Mary Barra's response that I like, right, is that she's

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not locked into anything.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Right?

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So whatever direction that Trump goes, and she's still in the game.

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And otherwise, when Trump goes left, they're going to go right.

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When he goes right, they're going to be on the defense.

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So it just makes them look a little bit more reactive.

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Now, I feel like Ford has given themselves enough wiggle room on this.

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They've said enough in praise of the goals of the White House.

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And as I said, American competitiveness, making the auto industry stronger.

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So I think that they've covered themselves in that.

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I think that the issue here that is getting everybody's attention is that, wow, somebody

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actually said something out loud.

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And with conviction and authority, it wasn't strident.

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It wasn't, it was very measured as you heard in those clips.

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But it is just, you know, speaking some facts that may be inconvenient to the White House.

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And I think those are important to have out there.

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Sure.

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But there's a few other facts that they could have thrown in here.

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We should have been speaking Trump's language here, talking about jobs, swing states, political

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wins.

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I mean, that's what moves the needle for him.

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Instead, they're offering an economic argument when this is a political game.

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Well, but so, but that was one of the things that was remarkable to many about what Farley

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said was he did talk about the impact to jobs, specifically at those EV battery plants.

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Yeah.

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I think he is being pretty smart in what he is raising.

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I think another thing as communicators is another voice that we should really take note of in

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this, in this exchange.

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And that's the soon to be former Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau.

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And he has been saying very broadly the same thing as Jim Farley.

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And for context, for those who don't know it, this has been a huge story in Canada, as you

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can imagine.

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Like, I have gone myself and tuned into the CBC just sort of at random and every time I tune

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in, it seems they are talking about this tariff dispute.

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But on the Saturday night that Trump imposed that first round of tariffs, Trudeau came out,

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I think it was nine o'clock at night in Ottawa.

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And he made this really eloquent appeal.

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I want to speak directly to Americans, our closest friends and neighbors.

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This is a choice that yes, will harm Canadians, but beyond that, it will have real consequences

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for you, the American people.

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Tariffs against Canada will put your jobs at risk, potentially shutting down American auto

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assembly plants and other manufacturing facilities.

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They will raise costs for you, including food at the grocery stores and gas at the pump.

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Beach goes on for 12 minutes.

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And remember, when he speaks to Canadians, he says half of it in French, but it was beautifully

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crafted, earnestly delivered bit of oratory that covered shared history of our countries,

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100 years of mutual aid, including 9/11.

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It's a real shame, but none of the cable networks that I saw carried those remarks live.

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And in this news cycle that we live in with Trump by Monday, and there's a lot of things

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that sort of run over it.

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But if you haven't heard it, go find it on the CBC.

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You will appreciate it.

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It's a masterclass in persuasive speech, I think, and he used it as a rallying cry for Canadian

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unity, which has been getting some traction there.

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Okay, great.

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So it was a beautifully crafted speech, no doubt about that.

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Yeah, it'll give us logical persuasive, framed it away that should have resonated, but here's

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the problem.

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Sure.

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Logic isn't what moves Trump.

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And if anything, the more articulate, polished and globally minded that the leader sounds,

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the more Trump is going to turn them out.

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So I don't know, Trudeau to me just checks all the boxes of someone that Trump enjoys humiliating.

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I think that's the point in another commonality with Farley is that they know that the logic

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is not going to win Trump over, but they're banking that popular opinion might.

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If they can't appeal to Trump with logic, then maybe they can appeal to American citizens,

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investors, others to get behind that.

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Yeah, I think they face the same issue.

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They're both making rational, well-argued appeals.

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But in a game where power and perception matters more than a reason.

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And Trudeau try to appeal directly to Americans framing this as something that would hurt them,

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and Farley is making a case about global competitiveness, but neither one is talking in a way that

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Trump values, which is personal loyalty, political strength and winning.

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And I'm not trying to appeal to Trump in that sense, but that's why to me, Farley's GM's

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quiet behind the scene strategy makes more sense.

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It just doesn't invite a public confrontation that Trump builds the need to escalate.

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So here's my question, dude, do you have any lessons here?

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Like, what are the takeaways?

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I mean, what are the things that you'd say that or did right?

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Or is this something that we're going to be re-evaluating here in a few weeks?

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We're just going to wait and see.

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Yeah, I think that's what we've been talking about is weighing the options and understanding

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that the time it seems like for Ford, the time has come to get some of this out in the

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open.

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And maybe that is because their back channel is not as strong as GM's.

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Maybe I'm just speculating on that, but I don't think it's a bad thing to be saying out loud

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and in public, some things that to you are in convertible facts.

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And I find them very reasonable.

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And they are all in the interest, as Farley has put it, of not just his company, but the

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entire industry and American workers.

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I think it's a reality check from somebody who is very close to the actual real world impacts

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of this policy.

258
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Sure.

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I think it was a good idea.

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Is brave.

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Yeah, well, I would say, look, they both took two different responses.

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They are not mutually exclusive.

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They're not opposites.

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But we could very clearly see that the GM's response of engagement, we can at least acknowledge

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that it's worth a long game.

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And with the Ford response, we're just hoping that they stay in the game.

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So I guess a couple of things for me coming out of it, because I know we've got another

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story that we're going to cover here.

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One is that I think they've got to be careful about what happens if they're out there, right?

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It's not just sticking their next out front.

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Something's going to happen.

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And they're either going to gain support, something's going to change, or they're going

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to have to pivot or backtrack.

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And that's not exactly a great response.

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They certainly need to find a way of staying in the game and finding a way to avoid retaliation.

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But we haven't even talked about what all this means from a comms perspective inside the

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company, right?

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Yeah.

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I think that's something.

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I don't know if you have any closing thoughts on that.

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No, I think this is a really interesting test.

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And I think I suspect that folks inside the company understand the stakes here as folks

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inside many, many, many other companies do.

284
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And so I hope they're looking at Farley and saying, here's a guy who took a risk on our behalf

285
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as company, as workers, and that he gets rewarded with that.

286
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He'll just watch the space and we'll stay on it.

287
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,000
So let's shift gears.

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This next topic, I think, falls into the adding insult to injury category meta, home of Facebook,

289
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,400
Instagram, and apparently newfound self-described masculine energy.

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They laid off another 5% of their workforce this week, reportedly around 3600 people.

291
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Layoffs are an unfortunate fact of life and they happen for any number of business reasons.

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But this time in a memo to staff, Metacetio Mark Zuckerberg wanted to make it clear the move

293
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was to clear out what he called low performers and move them out fast.

294
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Yeah.

295
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,000
So the memo leaked to Bloomberg and a few other news outlets that drew criticism from

296
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HR and communications leaders, not to mention many of the employees are actually laid off.

297
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,880
What is move here comes on the heels of similarly described cuts at Microsoft, which handed

298
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out pink slips to 1% of its workforce last month.

299
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So there's nothing new about performance-based cuts.

300
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They've been around for generations, if not longer.

301
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,720
But two things I think are problematic in this chapter at Meta.

302
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First, Zuckerberg accelerated the process.

303
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Usually, manage people out over the course of a year, he says, but this is going to be

304
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,240
an intense year, so we're just firing them right away.

305
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,040
And by the way, we just move the goalposts too.

306
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,640
So it doesn't sound very fair to employees, frankly, and maybe some folks, you know, were

307
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,680
already on a performance plan, but already we're hearing anecdotally about employees who

308
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,200
got good reviews in the last cycle or just came back from family leave.

309
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These are out, you know, on LinkedIn.

310
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Second, you're making these employees wear a modern day scarlet letter.

311
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Now everybody knows why you got laid off.

312
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,080
Yeah.

313
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,200
I've seen a bunch of posts on LinkedIn saying, I got this rating.

314
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,480
Last year in a better rating before that, but my manager was non-technical and here are all

315
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,080
the ways I contribute.

316
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,840
They're basically making these people feel like they need to sing for their supper in front

317
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,440
of potential employees for jobs they haven't even applied for yet.

318
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,440
Digging out from under this label that Meta has slapped on them.

319
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,720
And there's a thousand open positions at Meta, apparently, and I'm sure they won't have

320
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,920
problems filling them.

321
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,240
But I got to believe that it gives some applicants pause when they see how that place lets people

322
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,640
go, at least in this instance, and Zuckerberg said in that memo, he said, "I want to make

323
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,000
sure we have the best people on our teams."

324
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:40,040
Well, some of those people might decide they don't want to work for a company that treats

325
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,840
at least some of its people this way.

326
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,560
You know, I'm starting to see some parallels between this story with Meta and the story

327
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,920
we just looked at with GM and Ford.

328
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,560
And I'm going to make the parallel with Ford.

329
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,000
This is when you're speaking out this strongly and you're making a claim, you can't really

330
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,520
back off of it here.

331
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,720
I mean, look, downsizing has gone on forever.

332
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,920
But what's different about it this time is this focus about performance based downsizing

333
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,480
in a public forum.

334
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,920
That's not something that we've really seen before.

335
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,200
And I like the way you described it about them wearing the letter A, right?

336
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,440
So it's not just about optimizing the workforce, but I think there's something else that's

337
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,440
going on here as well.

338
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,280
I mean, my read on it is this is an attempt for companies to try to control the narrative

339
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,720
in response to all the chaos.

340
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:34,960
Yeah, but they're doing it at the expense of a lot of individuals who really, not, not,

341
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,240
doesn't fall to them.

342
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,240
Yeah.

343
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,920
I mean, look, companies can't control inflation, they can't control interest rates.

344
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,040
Certainly there's a lot of AI disruption going on, a lot of geopolitical instability.

345
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:51,040
We're putting everything under this large umbrella of chaos right now instead of chaos.

346
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:57,120
But I'm kind of viewing this as an attempt of companies to also signal to other stakeholder

347
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,120
groups.

348
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,080
You know, here, I think I'm going to focus on the investors that they're in control, they're

349
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,880
attempting to do something.

350
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,920
Now they're really not in control here, but saying that they're downsizing due to market

351
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,200
conditions, which used to be something that was okay to do right now that just seems

352
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,920
like a problem.

353
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:23,360
So I think to me, it just sounds like a signal of being proactive when they're not.

354
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,600
Now I think that that's right and it's really unfortunate that they have taken this step

355
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,760
and you're right, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube on this.

356
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,520
It's the statement is out there and I think future employers, when they look and they say,

357
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,400
oh, you left meta in February of 2025, we know why.

358
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,400
Yeah.

359
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,720
And that's, I think, really unfair to those employees.

360
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,480
And it just, it didn't have to be this way.

361
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,960
They could have treated people with more dignity and more compassion.

362
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,880
And you know, Zuckerberg wrote in that memo, letting people go is never easy.

363
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,840
But as I read it, he's not talking about compassion for people who just lost their jobs.

364
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,240
He's sort of like trying to absolve himself maybe of the responsibility.

365
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800
And I think they just went about it in the wrong way.

366
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,800
Yeah.

367
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:08,800
Look, there's so much here.

368
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,640
You know, number one, broad brush, broad brush labeling of low performance is dangerous.

369
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,480
You know, it's one thing to make quite workforce adjustments.

370
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,840
It's another to publicly brand the entire group of former employees is not good enough.

371
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,240
That's just, not just callous, but I think it also opens up meta to legal risk.

372
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,440
You know, for sure, are already circling.

373
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,680
You can bet that we're going to see wrongful termination suits, potential defamation claims.

374
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,680
Probably some very public litigation.

375
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,960
What's those cases hit? I think medical lose even more control of the narrative.

376
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,960
And I think to that point, you're going to see other people come out of the woodwork

377
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:50,040
about working conditions at meta and how they treat the people this creates and opening

378
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,600
for folks, you know, who in other circumstances might have felt.

379
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,760
Not just legal avenues, but I think the press will be more receptive to hearing about that.

380
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:00,760
Oh, absolutely.

381
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,960
You know, if you've got employees and analysts or journalists who start poking around, you

382
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,440
know, looking for holes in the performance-based claim, you know, the illusion is going to

383
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,080
start to crack.

384
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,320
And then instead of looking strategic, it's going to look like they're mismanaging the

385
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:14,320
business.

386
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,240
So I would say now, CCOs are going to have to be very careful as they walk this fine line

387
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,720
between messaging, strategic optimization, and avoiding a backlash.

388
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,400
The thing I worry about is that they're not as worried about the backlash.

389
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,760
I worry that this is influenced or maybe springs from the same source as that Zuckerberg

390
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,880
is masculine energy nonsense.

391
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,080
And this anti-woke changes that have been taking hold since the election.

392
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,880
And Zuckerberg has been out on the vanguard of it.

393
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,840
Remember when he rolled back content moderation efforts, he said, feels like we're in a new

394
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:48,840
era.

395
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,200
And that somehow meant that people want this, you know, sort of more political coarser,

396
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,400
kind of discourse on, I don't know that there's any evidence to that.

397
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,200
But there's an arrogance to this.

398
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,520
There's an aggressive tone.

399
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,640
And it sort of projects that they're not worried about hurting people's feelings.

400
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,000
And so kind of this, in the vein of this tough guy talk, it's kind of crude language that's

401
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,320
somehow becoming more acceptable.

402
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,960
There was, you remember, there was that infamous quote in the financial times in early January

403
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,640
where some banker said he felt liberated.

404
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,560
He called it the new dawn, which kind of sounds like a new era, because he wasn't worried

405
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,440
about using cruel or vulgar language in the workplace anymore.

406
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,800
And that's an extreme example.

407
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:36,800
But I worry that there's something there that it's somehow acceptable to be, if not cruel

408
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,400
then crude or again, like aggressive in this language and not so terribly worried about

409
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,000
the people that it packs.

410
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,920
It certainly matches what's coming out of the administration, right?

411
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:54,320
I mean, this is an unfortunate consequence of a return to Trump 2.0 is the degree of

412
00:24:54,320 --> 00:25:00,400
instability that is almost normalized or legitimized or made acceptable.

413
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,160
And I think that's something we got to fight back, push back against.

414
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,160
Yeah.

415
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,120
A number of folks that I've seen on LinkedIn both employees affected.

416
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,640
We talked about HR and communications experts.

417
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,560
A number of people have called the meta-statement cruel.

418
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:22,160
And I think the apparent tolerance for that type of cruelty is maybe the most worrisome

419
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,160
part of this.

420
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,160
All right.

421
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,560
I've got to ask you, what are some ways that companies can handle this differently?

422
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,680
So this performance-based chest beating does not become a phenomenon.

423
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,640
That's a now a thing, a permanent part of the conversation.

424
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,720
Well, I think that's just it.

425
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:40,720
Just don't do this again.

426
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,720
Just don't do it this way.

427
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,160
You didn't have to do it that way.

428
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,880
I think just go back to the way you used to handle these sorts of reductions and you're

429
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,040
used whatever euphemism that you want to for laying people off.

430
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,200
But there is a playbook for this.

431
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,720
Just go to the HR team.

432
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,720
They have it.

433
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,920
It's very well-worn.

434
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,120
And it works.

435
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,920
And nothing is ever cookie cutter.

436
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,200
But they know how to do this.

437
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:13,160
I think, but for these people who were all tired by the same brush, I think that they're

438
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,160
going to get sued.

439
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,680
There's nothing that is going to change that.

440
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:22,280
So I think that there is some room here for Metta to try to make it right with these people

441
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,680
and maybe issue a statement.

442
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,960
Yeah, I think it's a little late for the companies that have already made this move, but there's

443
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960
an opportunity certainly for other companies.

444
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:32,960
I don't know.

445
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,240
Look, I'd still love to hear them apologize to some degree for their tonality.

446
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,400
The decisions have been made.

447
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,960
The people are let go.

448
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,560
I think maybe toning down some of the chest baiting here certainly in order.

449
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,400
I think there's another comment through that running through the things that we've been

450
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,400
talking about today.

451
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,240
And that's about civility and leadership.

452
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,640
So it's not just about what companies do, but it's how they communicate the decisions.

453
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,720
So whether it's for going public with a fight that they may not win or met a framing layoffs

454
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,320
in a way that builds cold and dismissive, one of the things that we're seeing is the

455
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,120
shift and tone.

456
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:14,200
And I don't know, this idea of bloodness and strength and that empathy is weakness or

457
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,080
that you have to be aggressive to look like you're in control, but in reality, that's just

458
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,080
not leadership.

459
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,080
That's just more noise.

460
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,400
That's absolutely right.

461
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,880
You have to make hard decisions, but you still have to communicate them with clarity,

462
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,760
honesty and respect.

463
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:34,040
And for me, the way GM handled the tear situation with measured confidence, they're protecting

464
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,040
their flexibility.

465
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,160
They're not escalating a fight that they didn't need.

466
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,120
And I don't know to me for it on the other hand was I could appreciate their leadership

467
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:48,240
in another direction that maybe they do get the support from other people in industry.

468
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:54,800
But I think the issue here is that the perception is that it's loud and if they're not getting

469
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,640
the support and they're isolated, now they've got to have the lip of the choice that they've

470
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,640
made.

471
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,800
Clearly, Metac could have handled early off, so a whole lot more sensitively without making

472
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,160
it personal, but they chose to frame it as a performance issue.

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,880
And now they're dealing with employees in the media calling it BS.

474
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,320
So I think here's where we land.

475
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,560
The world that's increasingly rewarding those that are the loudest, the toughest or the

476
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,920
most aggressive voices.

477
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,440
The real thing is that leadership is going to come down to people who know how to balance

478
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,480
strength and civility.

479
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,680
But companies that are able to manage chaos without creating enemies and know how to make tough

480
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,760
calls without turning them into spectacle, I think.

481
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:35,760
I don't know.

482
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,760
Those are the ones to me.

483
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,960
They're going to be the ones that have lasting inputs.

484
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:39,960
Yeah.

485
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,080
I agree with you on almost all of that.

486
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,040
I do think that Ford deserves credit and they're going to be able to look themselves

487
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,040
in the mirror.

488
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,200
They're going to be able to sleep well at night because they knew that they spoke up when

489
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:58,000
they needed to and everything that they said was true and not hyperbolic and hopefully

490
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,040
people heard their message.

491
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,600
Well, look, sleeping well at night, that is a great metric.

492
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,680
That's a note out.

493
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,680
That's our show for this week.

494
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,760
We want to thank @ShawnPNeal and the PeopleForward Network for making our podcast possible.

495
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,480
If you'd like to tell us what you think, if you have a topic you'd like to suggest for

496
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,280
a show, we'd love to hear from you.

497
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,400
Our email address is podcast@ocrnetwork.com.

498
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,960
Communication breakdown is a production of the Observatory on Corporate Reputation.

499
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:26,960
I'm Steve Dowling.

500
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:27,960
And I'm Craig Carroll.

501
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,480
We'll be back next week.

502
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,120
Thanks for listening.

503
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:40,120
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