1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,520
Hello again, friend.

2
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:16,320
Welcome back to part 2 of my Chilling Mother's Day Collaboration Special.

3
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,920
Before we embark on our journey again, I want to take a moment to reflect on the origins

4
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,240
of this holiday.

5
00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:29,960
To truly understand the history of Mother's Day, we must go back thousands of years to

6
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,360
the ancient world.

7
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:38,000
The earliest known celebrations of mothers and motherhood can be traced back to the annual

8
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,440
spring festival in ancient Greece, honoring Rhea, the mother of gods.

9
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:52,240
But it wasn't just the Greeks, the Romans also had a festival called matronalia, where

10
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:58,320
husbands and children would shower their wives and mothers with gifts and flowers.

11
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:04,720
This tradition carried on for centuries in various forms, eventually influencing a Christian

12
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,600
holiday known as Mothering Sunday.

13
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:15,200
Mothering Sunday was celebrated in Europe, particularly in the United Kingdom, on the

14
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,840
fourth Sunday of Lent.

15
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,300
This was a time when people would return to their mother church, the church where they

16
00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:26,560
were baptized and grew up attending.

17
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,380
Families would reunite, and children would often bring gifts, such as flowers or small

18
00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:34,720
tokens for their mothers.

19
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,880
But what about modern mothers' day?

20
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:46,280
For that we must turn to the early 20th century, in the efforts of a woman named Anna Jarvis.

21
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:53,280
Anna Jarvis was the daughter of Anne Reeves Jarvis, a social activist and community organizer

22
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,840
who worked hard to improve the lives of women and families.

23
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:05,360
After her mother's death in 1905, Anna sought to create a day that would honor the sacrifice

24
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,960
as mothers made for their children.

25
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:15,800
In 1908, Anna held the first mother's day celebration at a Methodist church in Graften

26
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:16,800
West Virginia.

27
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:24,400
By 1912, she had successfully established the Mother's Day International Association and

28
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:30,760
began campaigning to have Mother's Day recognized as an official holiday.

29
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:39,400
Her hard work paid off, and on May 9, 1914, President Woodrow Wilson signed a proclamation

30
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:46,840
designating the second Sunday in May as a National holiday to honor mothers.

31
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,080
Mother's Day had officially become a part of American culture.

32
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,520
Anna Jarvis envisioned Mother's Day as a time for families to come together and spend

33
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:05,240
quality time with their mothers, writing heartfelt letters and expressing their love and gratitude.

34
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:13,080
However, she became disillusioned with the commercialization of the holiday as a grew in popularity.

35
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:19,360
Despite her disappointment, Mother's Day continued to spread across the globe, with countries

36
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,680
adopting their own unique traditions and customs.

37
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:29,960
So as we celebrate Mother's Day this year, let's remember its roots and honor the sacrifices

38
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:37,040
of Mother's Everywhere and take the time to truly appreciate the love and dedication

39
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,280
they show us every day.

40
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,360
Now let's get into the adventure.

41
00:03:42,360 --> 00:04:08,080
We wake up the next morning in the once grand mansion, now overgrown with ivy and shrouded

42
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,520
in darkness.

43
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:17,240
Her broken windows and cracked walls whisper tales of long forgotten family secrets.

44
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:34,400
It's here that we meet Esther who tells a shocking story from her podcast once upon a crime.

45
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,560
Diane Downs was a 27-year-old mother of three in the spring of 1983 when she arrived at a

46
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,400
Springfield Oregon Hospital emergency room.

47
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,760
She screamed for help, saying a man had attempted to carjack her on a rural country road, and

48
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:53,320
when she refused to give him her car, he shot her three children sleeping in the backseat.

49
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,240
The horror of such a random act of violence against innocent children shocked the community

50
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,200
and the police, but once suspicion for raise that their mother was the shooter, the question

51
00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,200
became why.

52
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,120
What would cause a mother to murder her children?

53
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:23,240
The answer was as cold-blooded as it was shocking.

54
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,560
Diane Downs was in love with love.

55
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,120
Perhaps this was because, as she claimed, she was raised with a strict and controlling father

56
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,280
who showed her little affection and a passive mother who put her husband's needs before her

57
00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:35,560
childrens.

58
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:42,040
Diane, born in 1955, was the first to five children born to Wesley and Willedine Fredrickson.

59
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,520
Diana's siblings were raised in a conservative Baptist home.

60
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,960
Her father worked for the U.S. Postal Service, and the family moved often as he was transferred

61
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,720
to other positions.

62
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,240
By the time she was in high school, they were living in Phoenix, Arizona.

63
00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,040
Diane said she felt ignored by her mother and criticized by her father.

64
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,520
As a result, she grew up with a desperate need for love and affection.

65
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,080
Diane didn't make friends easily and described herself as an ugly duckling as a child.

66
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,200
She recalled being teased or ignored by her classmates.

67
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,840
Even worse, was the ridicule in bullying she experienced in grade school.

68
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,520
Diane blossomed into a pretty teen with a cute figure that she soon realized made her

69
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,400
popular with the boys.

70
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,240
For the first time, Diane felt seen.

71
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,720
Even better, she felt a sense of power over the teenage boys who sought her attention.

72
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,080
She gained a reputation at Moon Valley High as a flirt, but it was Steve Downs who won

73
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:34,080
her heart.

74
00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,160
He was wild and rebellious, and Diane was instantly attracted to him.

75
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,360
By 16, they were an item and began a sexual relationship.

76
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,240
When her parents found out, they forbade their daughter to see Steve Downs, but it was only

77
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,800
after graduation that the couple parted.

78
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,360
Steve joined the Navy, and Diane was accepted at a Bible College in California, so they went

79
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,320
their separate ways.

80
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,000
Diane began relationships with several boys she met in college, trying to fill the void

81
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,360
left by Steve's departure.

82
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,160
After two semesters, she was kicked out of school for promiscuity and returned to Phoenix.

83
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,120
Steve returned to town, and in 1973, when they were both 18, they married against their parents

84
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:12,520
wishes.

85
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,120
Diane wanted to start a family right away.

86
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,040
She romanticized what it would be like to have children.

87
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,760
She often expressed a desire to have babies because she'd finally have someone who would

88
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,920
love her unconditionally.

89
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,240
Diane didn't say she wanted someone to love unconditionally.

90
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,040
Instead, she believed a child would fulfill all her emotional needs.

91
00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,480
Soon after they're wedding, however, Steve Downs told Diane that he had changed his mind.

92
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,520
He didn't want kids right away.

93
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,360
Maybe in a few years he offered.

94
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,840
She was furious.

95
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,240
She accused him of never loving her.

96
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,480
Her feelings of rejection grew when she discovered Steve was cheating on her.

97
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,800
Diane became obsessed with the idea of having a baby to fulfill her need for love and affection.

98
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,200
She stopped using birth control and soon found herself pregnant.

99
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,200
She was thrilled.

100
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,000
Her daughter, Christy, was born on October 7, 1974.

101
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,520
Diane said she experienced real love for the first time in her life when her daughter was

102
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,020
born.

103
00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:12,340
But the reality of having a baby soon set in and Diane became exhausted and disillusioned

104
00:08:12,340 --> 00:08:14,040
about being a mother.

105
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,440
She and Stephen frequently argued about the stress of raising a child with limited resources.

106
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,720
Still, Diane continued to chase the high she got from being pregnant and giving birth.

107
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,840
While pregnant, the pretty blonde who still looked like a teenager received a lot of attention.

108
00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,340
Strangers congratulated her.

109
00:08:30,340 --> 00:08:33,000
Her family asked about her health and gave advice.

110
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,800
She lapped it all up and craved more.

111
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:41,240
Diane became pregnant again, and her daughter Cheryl Lynn was born in 1976.

112
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,600
Cheryl was colloquy and cried constantly.

113
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,640
Diane grew impatient and frustrated that she wasn't feeling the unconditional love she

114
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,080
so desperately craved.

115
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,000
Her relationship with her husband became strained to the breaking point and she decided to leave

116
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000
him.

117
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,240
So the timing was terrible when she discovered she was pregnant for the third time.

118
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,880
Unwilling to stay in the relationship, Diane felt her only option was to terminate the pregnancy.

119
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,800
Afterwards she left her marriage taking two-year-old Christy and nine-month-old Cheryl with her.

120
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,920
Finding it hard to parent and provide for her children alone, she and Stephen Reckoncile

121
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,640
and break up several times over the next two years.

122
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,480
And expliquably, Diane decided she wanted another child.

123
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,440
Steve had since had a vasectomy and she asked him to have it reversed but he refused.

124
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,960
Now working outside of the home, Diane began sleeping with several of her co-workers.

125
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,400
She purposely set out to get pregnant by one of her lovers.

126
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,640
Steve found out and got into a physical altercation with the man, but it was too late.

127
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,520
Diane was pregnant.

128
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,840
Stephen Daniel Downs was born on December 29, 1979.

129
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,000
Although he wasn't his biological father, Steve raised the boy they called Danny as his

130
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,000
own.

131
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,720
Diane was an inconsistent mother to her children.

132
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,480
While stressed and unhappy, she was impatient, angry and sometimes neglectful.

133
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,520
When happy, she doated on her children and took them on special outings.

134
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:07,440
She played with them as if she were a child herself and called them her best friends.

135
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,240
The kids became confused and sometimes fearful of Diane.

136
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,520
Each mother would they experience today, the nice one who loved them or the angry one who

137
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,960
yelled and punished them.

138
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,720
Diane began working as a male carrier at the Chandler Post Office and started sleeping with

139
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,960
the series of her co-workers.

140
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,240
Witnesses say that with Steve often gone or while he and Diane were on the outs, Diane

141
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,920
would be out with one boyfriend or another and put her social life in front of her children.

142
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,640
She kicked her husband out again and moved her current boyfriend in with her.

143
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,120
He was also a single parent and he brought his two daughters, a few years older than Diane's

144
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,280
children with him.

145
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,320
This arrangement didn't last long.

146
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,760
Steve was constantly dropping by which was awkward for everyone and Diane's boyfriend didn't

147
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,840
like how she treated her children.

148
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,640
Her kids seemed like a pain in the ass to her, he said.

149
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,520
She felt that kids were inferior.

150
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,040
They weren't even allowed in the living room.

151
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,240
She called her kids vulgar and demeaning names he added.

152
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,680
When Diane began lashing out at his daughters as well, he left.

153
00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,800
Diane sometimes left the children alone altogether.

154
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,520
During these times, Steve would step in and care for the children until Diane returned.

155
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:20,440
She was always a person who needed an enormous amount of attention, a bottomless pit of need.

156
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,960
This need resulted in her applying to become a surrogate mother.

157
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,080
She was paid to conceive and carry a child for a couple who was experiencing fertility issues.

158
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,080
She gave birth to a baby girl in 1982.

159
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,320
Diane received $10,000 and was even interviewed for a Washington Post story about surrogate

160
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:38,640
parenting.

161
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,480
The attention and accolades she received meant more to Diane than the money, but she put

162
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,040
it to good use, purchasing a mobile home in Chandler and New furniture.

163
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,640
She talked incessantly to her co-workers about her experience as a surrogate mother.

164
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:52,920
These people needed me.

165
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,000
It made me somebody, Diane said.

166
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,040
When she returned to work at the Post Office after the baby's birth, she set her sights on

167
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,280
one man in particular.

168
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,600
Robert Nickerbacher or Nick, as Diane called him, was a married man with whom she began

169
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,600
an affair in the summer of 1982.

170
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,360
He tried to keep things discreet, but Diane immediately fell for him, and everyone knew she

171
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,520
was not only sleeping with Nick, but obsessed with him.

172
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,840
He told her he didn't want kids around while they were together, saying it was wrong.

173
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:26,040
She accommodated this request, pawning the children off to their father, neighbors or other

174
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,560
relatives, while she was engaged in her secret rendezvous with Nick.

175
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,600
She began urging Nick to leave his wife and marry her, but he made it clear he had no

176
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,480
intention of doing so.

177
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:41,380
She ignored this, believing he'd come around when he realized that it was her he loved.

178
00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:45,640
She used sex to keep him coming back, and even while he protested that he would never commit

179
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,680
to her, he continued the affair.

180
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:53,360
Diane's mobile home burned down just six months after she purchased it, and Arson was suspected.

181
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,680
However, she received an insurance settlement for a few thousand dollars and used a portion

182
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,640
of it to lease an apartment.

183
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,960
She listed both herself and Nick on the lease.

184
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,840
Nick had finally had enough.

185
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,720
His wife had caught wind of the affair and gave him an ultimatum.

186
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,920
It was either her or Diane.

187
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,200
Nick told Diane he couldn't see her anymore and broke things off.

188
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,640
He said he still loved his wife and was working to repair his marriage.

189
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,280
He also reminded her that he'd made it clear he didn't want children.

190
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,040
He'd had to have a sect meet early in his marriage to prevent this from happening.

191
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,960
That's how sure he was about this decision.

192
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,160
Diane was the mother of three, and Nick said this alone put him off ever marrying her

193
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,640
or offering her a commitment.

194
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,880
Diane went ballistic, calling and harassing Nick and his wife nonstop after he stopped seeing

195
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:38,880
her.

196
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,040
She even pounded on Nick's door, insisting he talked to her.

197
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,440
The couple finally left the state for a long vacation to escape her.

198
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,320
Still thinking she could win him back, Diane packed up her kids and moved to be near her parents

199
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,240
who were now living in Oregon.

200
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,220
It was Diane's plan that once she was settled, she'd contact Nick to whom she was sure

201
00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:59,480
would come to his senses once her threat to leave became real.

202
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,360
He could then join her in Oregon to escape his wife.

203
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,480
Diane believed that she could get him alone.

204
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,600
He could be talked into marrying her.

205
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,000
In April of 1983, she arrived in Springfield, Oregon with her three children.

206
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,160
Just a few weeks later, Diane Downs would arrive at the emergency department of a Springfield

207
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,680
hospital and announce that her children had been shot and were dying in the backseat of

208
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:27,720
her car.

209
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,560
Diane Downs called Robert Nickerbocker the man she was obsessed with once she arrived in

210
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,200
Springfield, Oregon.

211
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,200
She thought he'd miss her and want her back, but Nick told Diane it was over.

212
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,040
He wasn't ever moving to Oregon to be with her, period.

213
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,120
Not one to give up easily, Diane made one last effort to convince him.

214
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,800
A week later, she returned to Arizona and surprised him at work.

215
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,600
She made an excuse about needing to return a gold chain he'd given her.

216
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,920
She launched into a speech about her love for him and all the plans she'd made for them

217
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,320
to be together.

218
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,120
I told her I wasn't going to Oregon Nick told investigators later.

219
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,000
I told her I just didn't want to be a daddy.

220
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,200
Then he drove off in his mill truck.

221
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,760
That was the last time he saw her.

222
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,560
A few days later, on the evening of May 1983, a small red sports car screeched to a halt

223
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,320
at an emergency room entrance of the Mackenzie will limit hospital in Springfield.

224
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,440
Nurses came running and saw a young blonde woman standing outside her car.

225
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,760
Someone just shot my kids, she told them.

226
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,160
When they peered into the car, they saw two small bodies slumped in the back seat.

227
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,400
As they rushed them to the trauma center, the woman called out, "Get Cheryl, she's on

228
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,800
the floor, she hasn't moved at all."

229
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,640
A nurse peered in and saw another small body, but this one was on the floor in the front seat

230
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,800
on the passenger side.

231
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,880
The last child found was the most critically wounded.

232
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,560
Two bullet holes were found in seven-year-old Christie's back.

233
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,720
Emergency room doctors worked frantically to clear her air passages and found blood clots

234
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,480
blocking her throat.

235
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,120
Her blood was already clotting, suggesting that her wounds had occurred some time ago.

236
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,280
She was connected to a heart monitor, but a heartbeat could not be detected.

237
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,240
The child was pronounced dead on arrival.

238
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,600
The other two children were alive, but just barely.

239
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,720
Eight-year-old Christie had suffered two bullet wounds to the left side of her chest,

240
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,000
when it exited her back and when was still in her body.

241
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,960
She registered no blood pressure, was quickly losing blood and was on the verge of death.

242
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,760
Her heart stopped as doctors worked to clear a blood clot from her lungs.

243
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,000
They quickly shocked her heart and inserted a line to infuse more blood.

244
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,840
Miraculously, her heart started to beat again and she was rushed into surgery.

245
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,680
The little blonde boy, Danny, was just a baby, just three years old.

246
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,040
He was the only one of the children who was conscious when they arrived.

247
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,360
He continued to cry softly as the doctors worked over him.

248
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,720
If found a bullet hole, a fraction of an inch from his spinal column.

249
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,240
The bullet had been fired at close range.

250
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,800
Their mother also had a wound.

251
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,160
The nurse noticed a brightly colored beach towel wrapped around her arm from her elbow

252
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,520
to her wrist.

253
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,760
A bullet wound on the outside of her arm was almost halfway between the elbow and wrist.

254
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,400
It was not life-threatening.

255
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:19,640
It was cleaned, disinfected, and wrapped in a bandage.

256
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,880
Diane Downs, age 27, was questioned by police about the shooting.

257
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,400
She said she'd been driving home from a friend's house with her three children, Christie H.A.T.

258
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,040
Cheryl H.7, and Danny H.3, around 9.30 pm.

259
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,040
She said she was driving on Old Mohawk Road because the children liked to take the scenic

260
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,040
route.

261
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,520
Old Mohawk Road was located in a rural area and saw little traffic, especially in the

262
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,920
evenings.

263
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,320
Diane said she came upon somebody standing in the middle of the road.

264
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,780
He looked like he needed help, she said, so she stopped the car and got out, taking the

265
00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:53,680
keys with her.

266
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,640
As he approached, he told Diane he wanted her car and she'd refused.

267
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,360
The man she described as a bushy-haired stranger leaned into her car and began shooting at

268
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,600
her kids.

269
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840
She tried to pull him away, but he shot her in the arm.

270
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,480
She pretended to throw her car keys into the brush on the side of the road, and when

271
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,960
he ran to retrieve them, Diane said she jumped in the car and drove off as fast as she

272
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,240
could go to get help.

273
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,760
Detectives who interviewed the young mother first struck by her odd behavior.

274
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,680
Her kids were in surgery, fighting for their lives after being shot by a psychotic stranger

275
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,200
multiple times.

276
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,280
Yet Diane downstremained calm, not crying, not screaming, or hysterical.

277
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:38,000
She recounted events almost matter of factly, even smiling and giggling at times.

278
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,600
Her stories seemed implausible as well.

279
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,360
They were sightseeing at 9.30 pm in the dark.

280
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:48,680
And why on earth would a woman with three small children not only pull over and stop for a

281
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,680
male stranger, but also leave her car to approach him?

282
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,080
It made no sense to them that an armed car-jacker would shoot the children first, who were no

283
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:03,680
threat to him, but didn't attempt to shoot Diane until she physically confronted him.

284
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,440
Detectives watched as Diane was informed that her daughter Cheryl was dead.

285
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,240
They saw almost no reaction from her at all upon hearing this news.

286
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,920
She was then informed about the condition of her two other children.

287
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,240
Doctors told her they were cautiously optimistic about Danny and explained the damage he'd suffered.

288
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,680
You mean it missed his heart, Diane asked, sounding surprised?

289
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,040
Christie was still in recovery after surgery when Diane turned to the doctor and said, "I

290
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,080
know that Christie has suffered brain damage and I don't want you to sustain her life."

291
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,600
The doctor was outraged by her statement.

292
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:42,360
That was very unusual, he said, and inappropriate.

293
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:47,560
Christie would recover, but would have long-term issues with her ability to speak.

294
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,240
She could not speak for several weeks due to her injuries, and doctors suspected the

295
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,840
trauma she'd suffered from the violent crime exacerbated this condition.

296
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,160
Three-year-old Danny survived his injuries, but was left paralyzed from the chest down,

297
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,080
and confined to a wheelchair the rest of his life.

298
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,760
This quickly determined that the forensic evidence did not match what Diane told them about

299
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,080
the shooting.

300
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:14,520
No other sightings of a bushy-haired stranger were found, even after an extensive search.

301
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,640
Nor were any footprints, tire tracks, or other evidence that suggested the presence of a

302
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,360
second adult at the crime scene.

303
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,560
More importantly, no blood spatter was found on the driver's side of the door, nor any

304
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,920
gunpowder residue, which should have been detected if the stranger had shot the kids as

305
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,400
Diane had described.

306
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,520
The evidence all pointed to Diane down as the person who shot the children.

307
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,400
They discovered that she'd lied when questioned about owning a gun, specifically a 22-caliber

308
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,000
handgun, the type of weapon used in the shooting.

309
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,560
Both her ex-husband Steve and her lover Nick told police that Diane did own a handgun.

310
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,080
Nick told investigators he saw the 22 in the trunk of her car in the night before she left

311
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,080
for Oregon.

312
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,400
Investigators had found 22-caliber shell casings lying in blood in the backseat of her

313
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,400
car.

314
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,200
The gun was never found, however, investigators were able to match tool marks on the casings

315
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,360
found at the crime scene, with cartridges found in the Arizona home where Diane had lived.

316
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,840
The matching tool marks proved to investigators that the bullets found in Arizona had been

317
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,320
in the same weapon used to shoot the children.

318
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:26,480
After an extensive investigation, Diane Downs was finally put on trial on May 10, 1984.

319
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,120
She had been out on bail until February of 1984 when she was formally charged with one

320
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:35,920
counter-merder, two counts of attempted murder, and two counts of assault in the first degree

321
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,880
and booked into jail.

322
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,560
While free, Diane met another man, had a fling, and became pregnant.

323
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:47,200
She was far along in her pregnancy when she would finally appear before a jury.

324
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,760
Prosecutors were worried that jurors would have difficulty convicting a pregnant woman

325
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,320
on the verge of giving birth.

326
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,320
But the prosecutor's star witness sealed Diane's fate, almost exactly one year after she

327
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,320
was shot.

328
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,560
Christie Downs, now nine years old, took the stand to testify against her mother.

329
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,880
Christie looked very small and frail for her age and still had trouble speaking.

330
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,120
She cried upon seeing her mother for the first time in seven months.

331
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,320
Between tears, Christie told the packed but silent courtroom her recollections from the

332
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,560
night of May 1983 when her mother had stopped the car on a dark country road.

333
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,280
She described how Diane exited the vehicle, walked to the back and opened the trunk.

334
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,240
There was no one else around.

335
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,440
She watched as her mother returned, pointed a gun at Cheryl who was in the passenger seat

336
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,040
and shot her.

337
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,880
She then described as her mother had reached over the back seat and continued firing,

338
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,880
hitting Danny.

339
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:47,280
Next, the prosecutor, Dan Huege, asked Christie to describe what happened to her.

340
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,520
She gently asked her, "Who shot you?"

341
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,120
Sobbing, Christie answered, "My mom."

342
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:58,140
Diane took the stand in her own defense and resided virtually the same implausible series

343
00:22:58,140 --> 00:23:01,080
of events she described when first questioned.

344
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,000
She said that after the shooting she had panicked and prayed for her children to live as she

345
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,280
drove as fast as possible to the hospital.

346
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,440
If she'd been in such a panic, Huege asked, "How was the wound on her arm so carefully

347
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,520
wrapped and neatly folded in a towel?"

348
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,240
Diane had no answer.

349
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,760
He also confronted her about the timeline.

350
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,640
It just didn't fly, he said.

351
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,360
It had taken her 18 minutes to go 8/10 of a mile.

352
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:30,600
With a mother who was frantically trying to save her children drive so slowly, again, she insisted

353
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,120
she gone as fast as she could and didn't believe that this could be true.

354
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:39,840
Witnesses, however, confirmed it, testifying that they saw the small red car being driven

355
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,520
at such a slow rate that they remembered it clearly.

356
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,040
Others read from Diane's diary, in which she'd written about Robert Nickerbacher, her affair

357
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,920
with him, and her desperate need to win him at all cost.

358
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,840
She penned letters never mailed to Nick, in which she promised that if he moved to Oregon

359
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:02,120
and married her, her kids would quote "not be a problem, they will not be in the way,"

360
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,640
end quote.

361
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,240
Investigators also presented a psychological assessment that had been done when Diane

362
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,280
applied to be a surrogate.

363
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,480
The psychologist reported that Diane could shut her emotions down at will, like flicking

364
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,240
off a light switch.

365
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,200
He also diagnosed her with histrionic personality disorder, a personality disorder characterized

366
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,680
by excessive attention seeking, including inappropriately seductive behavior, and an excessive

367
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,680
need for approval.

368
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,400
People diagnosed as histrionic, are described as lively, dramatic, and flirtatious, with

369
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:39,120
exaggerated behavior and emotions, and who crave constant stimulation.

370
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:44,440
One interesting observation, the term surrogate actually means substitute.

371
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,320
Diane was an expert on substituting.

372
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,320
She substituted the love she received from her children, for the love she felt was missing

373
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,880
in her marriage.

374
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,240
She substituted the easy attention she received from men, for the attention she thought she'd

375
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,240
missed out on as a child.

376
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,320
Finally, she attempted to substitute the lives of her children, for the affection of one

377
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,040
man.

378
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,200
The jury returned its verdict on June 17, 1984.

379
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,840
They found Diane down guilty of one count of murder, two counts of attempted murder in the

380
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:20,960
first degree, and two counts of first degree assault, guilty on all charges.

381
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,600
Ten days later, she gave birth to a baby girl who was placed for adoption after the biological

382
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,720
father signed documents, releasing his claim on the child.

383
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Diane was sentenced to life plus fifty years, with a twenty-five mandatory minimum sentence.

384
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,280
The court rejected all of her appeals.

385
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,520
It was determined by the parole board that her first eligibility to apply for release

386
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,640
would not be until 2009.

387
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,120
In 1987, Diane downscaled a prison fence and escaped.

388
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:55,000
She was on the run for ten days with the help of another prisoner's husband whom she seduced

389
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,680
and who'd agreed to provide her a hideout.

390
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,640
She was caught in five years for added to her sentence.

391
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,400
The prosecutor, Fred Huggie, requested that Diane be sent to a more secure facility further

392
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:07,400
away.

393
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,880
He had good reason to fear another escape by Diane.

394
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Fred Huggie became fiercely protective of Diane surviving children, Danny and Christy.

395
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,960
But the consent of their father, Steve Downs, he and his wife adopted the children and were

396
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,240
raising them just miles from the Oregon prison where Diane was incarcerated.

397
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,840
His request was granted, and Diane was first sent across the country to New Jersey's

398
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,200
Clinton Correctional Facility.

399
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,360
She was later transferred to California and now serves her time in a California State

400
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,360
Women's Prison.

401
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:44,160
Diane Downs has gone before a parole board in 2010 and 2020 and was denied both times.

402
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:52,880
She continues to claim she is innocent.

403
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:59,160
We exit the decaying mansion and make our way through a labyrinth of twisted hedges.

404
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,480
We're deceit and treachery lurk around every corner.

405
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,960
At the heart of the maze, we meet Caitlyn and Cassie who share a hair-raising story from

406
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:23,080
their podcast, PNW Haunts and Homicides.

407
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,080
Usually neither one of us can handle the other one's topic.

408
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,080
It's true.

409
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,880
Like today, that's why I won't be talking that much.

410
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,200
We're going to hear a lot from Caitlyn.

411
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Just know the look on my face won't be pleasant.

412
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,440
That's fine.

413
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:45,680
Many of us, if we choose to or are able to celebrate Mother's Day, we do that by sending

414
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,840
our Mama card or maybe some flowers.

415
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,920
You know, if we're not close enough to actually visit.

416
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,520
Since my mom lives in the area, we love to do brunch.

417
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,840
It's a nice, relaxing way to do something everyone can enjoy for the occasion.

418
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,080
Ooh, I think of mamosas.

419
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,080
Mamosas.

420
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,760
Mimosa, craves.

421
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:14,160
But because this isn't a podcast about brunch, in May of 2015, not everyone would be able

422
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,120
to celebrate the way they might wish.

423
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:23,920
Particularly in the somewhat rural, organ areas of Colton and Estecata.

424
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:30,920
Joshua Lee Webb was 36 years old at the time, living in a pole barn on his parents' property

425
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:37,280
where the Webb family home was, doing odd jobs in the small community of Colton.

426
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:44,240
His parents, Tina Marie and David Webb, were aware of only some of his struggles.

427
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:50,240
He had problems with his vision and though he was considered kind of a weirdo around town.

428
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,920
I'm a weirdo.

429
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Not this kind of weirdo.

430
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,720
He was generally thought to be nonviolent.

431
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:01,920
However, concerning his mental health issues that they were perhaps unaware of, at least

432
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,000
in part, they would not remain hidden forever.

433
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,800
Later, a number of bizarre accounts about his state of mind and behavior would come to

434
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,800
light.

435
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,840
Like that he thought his girlfriend was trying to inject him with something in an effort

436
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,680
to kill him.

437
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,720
And there was the true leap of our claim that Fox TV was trying to own him.

438
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,720
What?

439
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,840
Not exactly sure what that means.

440
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,680
He also believed that something in the family home wasn't quite right.

441
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,680
Him?

442
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:41,040
He was said to believe that there was a recording device present, something like a black box

443
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,280
in the garage just capturing all the day-to-day goings-on.

444
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,520
That's like really extreme.

445
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Eventually, his physical appearance began to deteriorate, not the least of which he had

446
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,920
some very unusual looking eyes, very unsettling.

447
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:07,360
He was known to rub his head in a frustrated manner and complain that it felt like a squid

448
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,360
was sucking on his head.

449
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,360
Okay.

450
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,360
I get that.

451
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,520
Which of course sounds deeply unpleasant.

452
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:21,000
His mother expressed concern to other family members about his mental health.

453
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:28,920
And Joshua himself seemed to be aware that what he was experiencing was not normal and

454
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,800
at times he even expressed concern that he might harm himself for others.

455
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,800
He had that much self-awareness.

456
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:43,120
I feel like he was just feeling like he's very much out of control in his own body and mind.

457
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:50,640
He voluntarily turned over firearms and destroyed knives that he had previously possessed.

458
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,560
He went so far as asking his girlfriend to move back to the east coast in order to keep

459
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,360
her away from him.

460
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:05,240
On May 13th, according to his father, they had a conversation before Joshua went to bed

461
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,800
and his father could tell that he was taking the break up really hard.

462
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,160
He didn't know any particular red flags or warning signs though.

463
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,400
Breakups are hard, so he really didn't give that conversation another thought.

464
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Yeah, that sounds pretty legit.

465
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:29,240
Joshua took it a step further when he also falsely reported himself as a murderer to two

466
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,760
different police agencies in an effort to be taken into custody.

467
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,920
If that isn't the biggest cry for help.

468
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,960
One mother's day fears that perhaps they couldn't admit even to themselves would burst forth

469
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:52,300
into reality when Joshua's sister arrived at the web family home along with her children

470
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,000
to celebrate with the family.

471
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,640
She was immediately alerted to the fact that something was very wrong.

472
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,640
When she sadly found Joshua's dog stabbed to death in the kitchen.

473
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,360
No, what?

474
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,360
I know.

475
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,400
I'm really praying that her kids didn't see that.

476
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:13,400
I hope not.

477
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:14,640
That's so sad.

478
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:20,720
But it's not until she steps further inside the family home that the full depth of the

479
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,480
horror she stumbled upon is realized.

480
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:31,480
On Mother's Day of all days, she would find her mother's decapitated body lying on the

481
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,480
floor.

482
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,160
Oh, I just got freezing cold.

483
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:43,040
When she dials 911, at this point, there's already another call coming into dispatch from

484
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,040
a local grocery store.

485
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:51,520
The caller described a dishevelled man entering the store wielding a bloody knife and we are

486
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,160
not talking about a butter knife.

487
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,680
It was an eight inch knife.

488
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,520
So more like something you'd use to carve a turkey.

489
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,520
But it gets worse.

490
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:09,120
Witnesses would state that in his other hand appeared to be a severed human head.

491
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,080
No, we're not in sleepy hollow.

492
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,880
This is not a headless horseman situation.

493
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,200
The man helped himself to a soda from the cooler, drinking it right then and there in front

494
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,040
of the stunned employees at the store.

495
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:28,880
He threatened one of the store clerks, gave chase, and then gruesomely began stabbing

496
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,600
the man, Michael Wagner.

497
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,840
The other employees immediately moved to subdue the attacker.

498
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,640
They used duct tape to restrain the attacker before calling the police.

499
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,040
I don't think most of you are likely having any trouble connecting the dots, but this was

500
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:53,200
Joshua who became completely catatonic at that point.

501
00:33:53,200 --> 00:34:01,440
He was taken to the hospital where he would remain in that state until a full 24 hours had passed.

502
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:08,400
When he snapped back to reality, he said, "I had a nice snap before providing a freely

503
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,560
given confession to the horrific crimes of the previous day."

504
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,600
This case did not go to a jury trial.

505
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,000
It was pretty open and closed.

506
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,920
He pleaded guilty by reason of insanity.

507
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,840
His defense attorneys obviously wanted to see him sentence to a mental institution rather

508
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,880
than simply being incarcerated.

509
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:39,240
Two psychiatrists, one from each of the opposing legal teams, testified in his trial.

510
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:46,400
They agreed that this was the correct course of action as both confirmed a diagnosis of

511
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,120
schizophrenia and psychosis.

512
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,760
Joshua's father, David Webb, who hadn't been present at the time of his wife's murder

513
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,880
said, "My wife was wonderful.

514
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,800
I've been married to her for almost 41 years.

515
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,840
Joshua was our son.

516
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,440
I never saw a problem.

517
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,520
Evidently, there was one.

518
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,480
I start crying every time I think about it."

519
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,640
"Oh, that poor man."

520
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:28,000
As we emerge from the dark labyrinth, we find ourselves in a decrepit greenhouse, where

521
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:35,720
they're wilted plants and shattered glass, hint at a once thriving sanctuary of life.

522
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:42,720
It's here that we meet Robin, who recounts a chilling tale from their podcast of trail

523
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:51,880
and cold.

524
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,960
So there are a lot of diabolical mothers out there who are murdered or attempted to murder

525
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,100
their own children, but I doubt you'll find too many crazy examples of this than Audrey

526
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:02,760
Marie Hill.

527
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,920
I first learned about this story in 1991 when unsolved mysteries put together a special

528
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:13,640
episode titled "Diabolical Mines," which attempted to perform an in-depth exploration into the

529
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,840
mind of a psychopath.

530
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,480
And even though the song of Audrey Marie Hilly was technically not an unsolved mystery per

531
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,880
say, I can see why they decided to put together a lengthy segment about her stories since,

532
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,360
well, it's Batchet and St.

533
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,480
Audrey Marie Hilly, who went by her middle name, lived in Aniston, Alabama with her husband,

534
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,280
Frank and their children, Mike and Carol, and even though Frank had a good job and they

535
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,920
seemed like an ideal family, there was something much darker beneath the surface.

536
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,680
Marie frequently cheated on her husband and spent money excessively, so she eventually

537
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:54,240
decided to utilize a popular practice for psychopaths who experience financial problems,

538
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,560
take out an insurance policy and love one, and kill them.

539
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:04,960
In May of 1975, Frank passed away at the age of 45 after a lengthy illness and the official

540
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,080
cause of death was ruled to be infectious hepatitis.

541
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,400
At the time, no one had any inkling that foul play occurred, but it turned out the Marie

542
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:21,160
Hitt taken out a $31,000 insurance policy on her husband right before his illness started.

543
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,400
And Marie blew through that money fairly quickly and reached the point where she was heavily

544
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,120
in debt and receiving calls from creditors.

545
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,920
While in 1979, history would seemingly repeat itself when Carol, who was 18 years old at this

546
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:41,480
point, became seriously ill and displayed a number of the same symptoms her father had.

547
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,160
While Carol attempted to recover, her mother secretly gave her injections which were supposed

548
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:51,600
to alleviate her nausea, but it only seemed to make things worse and Marie told Carol not

549
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,440
to tell anyone about these shots.

550
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,700
While all this was going on, Mike decided to confront Marie about her financial issues,

551
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:04,200
and this took place right before he ate a breakfast his mother had cooked for him.

552
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:10,480
While lo and behold, Mike soon found himself becoming very ill though he did recover.

553
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,680
The big turning point occurred when Marie was arrested for passing bad checks and it turned

554
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:21,480
out she was attempting to use them to pay the premiums on a $25,000 insurance policy

555
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,200
she had secretly taken out on Carol years earlier.

556
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,160
So let this be a lesson for stupid criminals.

557
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,600
If you're planning to murder someone for insurance money, make sure you at least have enough

558
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,760
money on hand to pay for the policy.

559
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,040
By this point, Carol was recuperating in the hospital and Marie's arrest generated enough

560
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,560
suspicion that physicians decided to perform new tests on Carol and discovered that she had

561
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:53,280
a high level of arsenic in her system, which resulted in a Marie's secret ejections.

562
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,640
Following this revelation, the authorities decided to exude Frank's body had sure enough

563
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,680
a new autopsy would uncover lethal traces of arsenic in his system.

564
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,440
And now seemed obvious that Marie had poisoned her own husband and daughter in an attempt

565
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,960
to collect on their insurance policies and it likely poisoned Mike when she fed him

566
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,560
breakfast.

567
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,240
What's ironic is that Marie was described as being very kind and loving towards Frank and

568
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:24,080
Carol while she was caring for them during their illnesses, even though she was the direct

569
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,480
cause of sad illnesses.

570
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,960
Anyway Marie was first arrested for the attempted murder of Carol before she was released on

571
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,880
bail and in January of 1980 she was finally indicted for Frank's murder.

572
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,040
If things had ended there, this already would have been a crazy story, but the next development

573
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,280
would send things into Kuku for Cocoa Pops territory.

574
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,640
While she was out on bail, Marie fled to Florida and started a new life under the name Robbie

575
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,040
Hannon.

576
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,440
She soon became involved in a relationship with a man named John Holman and got married

577
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:04,120
to him, but in the summer of 1982 Marie told John that she had to go back to her home

578
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,120
state of Texas in order to seek treatment for an illness.

579
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,400
While months later John was taken by complete surprise when Robbie Hannon's twin sister

580
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:19,440
Terry suddenly showed up at his door to inform him that Robbie had succumbed to her illness.

581
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,280
Nope, you heard that right.

582
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,320
Marie had actually gone to the trouble of changing her hair and losing some weight and was

583
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,160
now posing as her alter ego's non-existent twin sister.

584
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,360
There are only three letters one can use to adequately describe this situation and they

585
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,760
are W, T, and F.

586
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,200
Anyway the facade eventually came tumbling down and once the authorities learned that Robbie

587
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,320
and attempted murder and received sentences of life imprisonment plus twenty years.

588
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,000
In February of 1987 Marie was granted a three-day furlough from prison in order to visit

589
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,040
John who remarkably had still decided to stay married to her.

590
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,720
But she used this opportunity to attempt an escape and spent the next few days hiding out

591
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:12,120
in the woods.

592
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,200
Unfortunately for her, the terrible weather and freezing temperatures caused her to succumb

593
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,560
to hypothermia at the age of 53.

594
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,640
So I guess it's only appropriate for the saga Marie Hilly ended in a very unconventional

595
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:26,640
fashion.

596
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,200
So happy Mother's Day everyone and if any of you out there have mothers who have been

597
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:45,040
giving you secret injections and asking you not to tell anyone, run!

598
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,120
We leave the Haunted Greenhouse and enter a long forgotten cemetery where the graves of

599
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:59,360
mothers and children lie side by side, their stories etched into the crumbling headstones.

600
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:12,480
Admits the tombstones, we encounter Allison and Maggie from their podcast, Coffee and Cases.

601
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:18,840
The Christmas tree lights were gleaming and they were illuminating the wrapped gifts sitting

602
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,160
in the corner of the room.

603
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:30,880
In 23 year old Stanley Anita Moore's home at 2249 Lafayette Street in Denver, Colorado.

604
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,680
During the early morning hours of Monday, December 13th, 1971.

605
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,480
I'm also going to picture a root off the Red Nose Render playing in the background.

606
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:47,480
Yeah all the Christmas movies coming on television, it's a wonderful life maybe playing.

607
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:53,080
Now that is probably your thinking an odd name for a girl.

608
00:42:53,080 --> 00:43:02,320
Yes she was personable and outgoing but Stanley Anita was known as Stanita by her friends

609
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,640
and family so they just kind of merged the two names.

610
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:11,640
Yes she had gotten the unique name because of her dad Stan Lee Moore.

611
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:18,920
So he and Stanita's mother had already had three children all girls and now in his wife's

612
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:24,240
fourth pregnancy he was desperate for a little boy.

613
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:33,520
So when their fourth child was another girl, he decided to pass along his name to her anyway

614
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,480
calling her Stanley after himself Anita.

615
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,800
I kind of like it though.

616
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,120
And her parents did go on to have boys so he was a little premature in passing along the

617
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,960
name but yeah it's very unique.

618
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,240
And Stanita was fierce in a way that all of the best people are.

619
00:43:54,240 --> 00:44:01,000
Her younger brother Steven recalled that Stanita was always his protector and that if Stanita

620
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,040
was near no bully ever bothered him.

621
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,040
I love that.

622
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,400
Yeah she would stand up to wrong no matter what form it came in.

623
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:16,200
As an adult Stanita was a hard worker and her role is a nurse aid at Presbyterian Hospital

624
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:24,240
but her greatest joy came in being a mother because again she's a protector.

625
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:27,840
Yeah I was going to say she's going to be a mom of air.

626
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:33,520
She was an independent single mom to a little girl named Shandale.

627
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:42,240
The night of Sunday December 12th 1971 into the early morning hours of Monday December 13th.

628
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:49,640
Stanita and her then 18 month old daughter were at home with Shandale already fast asleep

629
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,080
obviously in her crib in another room.

630
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,820
Which I guess I shouldn't say obviously because she's 18 months old so she could be waking

631
00:44:56,820 --> 00:45:01,520
up in the middle of the night but she was asleep this night in the other room.

632
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:08,360
And while we don't have many details concerning what happened that night here is what we do

633
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:17,080
know and I will warn you it is very little and I'll explain to you why in just a moment.

634
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,660
Someone entered Stanita's home that evening though we don't know if that entrance into

635
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:29,760
the home were forcible or if Stanita had let the person in.

636
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:37,560
But while my research yielded no details as to the murder weapon we do know that Stanita

637
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,960
was strangled to death.

638
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:48,600
I don't know if the choice to strangle with one's own hands versus using an instrument

639
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:56,000
indicates anything about the perpetrator psyche but it would at least to me seem to indicate

640
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:03,440
more premeditation if it were done with an instrument like a shoelace in the most

641
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,440
right.

642
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,440
Right.

643
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:14,960
But again with what little reports there are none of them specify but either way the

644
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:22,760
one silver lining is that Stanita's daughter Shandale was not harmed and had slept through

645
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,840
the incident safely in her crib.

646
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,040
That is a silver lining for sure.

647
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:35,520
We do know that Stanita's family received a call in those early morning hours of December

648
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:40,780
13th telling them that something horrific had happened and that they needed to rush to

649
00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:43,600
Stanita's home right away.

650
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,400
But again we don't know who called them to tell them that they needed to come over who

651
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,440
called the police.

652
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:56,480
One of those details have been shared but they couldn't believe what had happened.

653
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:02,360
In the aftermath, Shandale was adopted by one of Stanita's sisters and despite all of the

654
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,360
horrors that had already happened in her young life the family made it their mission to

655
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:15,400
counteract those horrors with a continual outpouring of love over the years to Shandale.

656
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:21,720
Now as I just mentioned, there is a lot of information that is missing.

657
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:24,360
Key questions still unanswered.

658
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,840
Important details, nonexistent.

659
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:35,160
This is partly due to the fact that the police files for the case no longer exist in their

660
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,160
entirety.

661
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,640
Oh how did that happen?

662
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:47,400
So the family just recently discovered that so much of the documentation has been missing

663
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,480
and they recently discovered that it has been missing for at least a decade.

664
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:53,480
Wow.

665
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:54,480
I don't understand.

666
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,720
We've talked about that on our show before.

667
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,560
Being discarded or things disappearing.

668
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,960
I want to see how that happens.

669
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:14,320
So here's how they explained it.

670
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:34,680
The case is that we are not going to be able to see the case.

671
00:48:34,680 --> 00:49:04,360
Of how the stringulation was enacted.

672
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:12,160
However, spokesperson Shepman wrote an email to that same reporter Vaughn noting that,

673
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:18,520
"Well, they may just as likely have been destroyed by water damage.

674
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:26,240
They could still be available but just accidentally misfiled somewhere else in the archives."

675
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:31,160
Or even that a detective had checked out the files to work on the case years ago and just

676
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:32,640
never returned them.

677
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,400
Okay, but I think at least that one you would have record of the detective's check in the

678
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:38,400
files.

679
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:39,400
I would hope.

680
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:47,120
As we know, a lot of cold cases have breaks because the stories remain in the public consciousness.

681
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:54,200
Unfortunately, that didn't happen in Stanitas case which received only a couple of articles

682
00:49:54,200 --> 00:50:02,080
at the time, including one that ran on April 9, 1972 called, "Who killed Mother of Sleeping

683
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Baby."

684
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,040
And then nothing.

685
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:13,880
Even now, there is little information to help keep the story alive, only a handful of articles.

686
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:20,000
And with that, I've pretty much given you all of the information that has been shared.

687
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,000
Wow.

688
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:27,600
That is why you, as the listener, are even more important.

689
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,540
Just because we don't have a lot of information to share doesn't mean that these stories don't

690
00:50:32,540 --> 00:50:35,200
need to be shared.

691
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,840
Despite the bleak outlook, there can still be hope, even though it has now been more than

692
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,080
50 years since the crime occurred.

693
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:49,960
In Kevin Vaughn's article in 9 News, Shandale said of her mother, quote, "I don't get to know

694
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,280
her, but I wish I could have."

695
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,400
End quote.

696
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,280
That kind of loss is heartbreaking.

697
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:05,120
However, while Shandale doesn't have memories of her mother's kindness and love, she can

698
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:11,000
feel the outpouring of it from others who are willing to share her mother's story and

699
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,520
to push for answers.

700
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:23,760
And answers are still possible.

701
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:29,880
As we wander deeper into the graveyard, we come across Nina, who tells a tale from her

702
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:41,320
podcast already gone.

703
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,560
There are a lot of terrible ways to die.

704
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:49,040
Cancer, drowning, and Alzheimer's-related illness.

705
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,160
But for me, the worst way to go is being burned alive.

706
00:51:53,160 --> 00:52:00,240
David Cole and Timothy Fowler were close friends from Deerfield, a small town in Lennoway,

707
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:02,440
County, Michigan.

708
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:09,320
Deerfield is a very small town, and it's located about 60 miles southwest of the city of Detroit.

709
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:15,120
In the spring of 1982, David and Tim were nearing the conclusion of their sophomore year of high

710
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,360
school.

711
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,760
The two spent a lot of time together, and they loved working on cars.

712
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,480
Their dream was to open an auto shop after high school, a place where they could earn money

713
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,720
doing what they loved.

714
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:34,120
Their families described the boys as "good kids" who stayed out of trouble.

715
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:39,360
Saturday, May 8, 1982, the day before Mother's Day.

716
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,040
David's mom and stepdad are off to West Virginia, they're visiting relatives.

717
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,720
David invited Tim over to spend the night at his parents' farmhouse just a few miles outside

718
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:50,320
of Deerfield.

719
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:55,360
But both David and Tim's parents were reluctant to allow a friend to stay over because of

720
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,760
the lack of parental supervision.

721
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,240
However, the boys were persistent, and their parents gave in.

722
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:05,560
Tim went to David's farmhouse for the night.

723
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:13,880
But on Mother's Day, May 9 at approximately 12.45 am, firefighters are called to the farmhouse.

724
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,680
When they arrive, the wooden structure is engulfed in flames.

725
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:23,200
When the fire is extinguished and the smoke clears, a horrifying discovery is made.

726
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:30,760
The bodies of David and Tim are found on the first floor, locked inside of a windowless bathroom.

727
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:35,320
The boys were still dressed in street clothes, leading investigators to believe that they were

728
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,720
awake when the fire started.

729
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:42,600
Evidence at the scene made it look like a person or persons came to the home and forced

730
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:48,240
the boys into the bathroom, locking the door from the outside, trapping them in a small,

731
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:50,680
windowless room.

732
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:57,160
This person or persons then poured gasoline on the floor of the home and lit a match.

733
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,120
The gasoline appeared to have come from a can that was usually kept out in the barn.

734
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,720
During their investigation, officers found the nearly destroyed can in the remnants of the

735
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:11,320
fire, along with the bodies of Tim and David.

736
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:17,040
A 1983 story in the citizen patriot newspaper reported that gasoline was poured in front of

737
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,480
the door and ignited.

738
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:24,080
But more recent stories claim that the fire started in the kitchen, which was adjacent

739
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,520
to the bathroom.

740
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:31,720
The farmhouse where the boys lived and died was older, made mostly of wood, and the first

741
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:35,160
floor bathroom was part of an addition to the home.

742
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:42,600
This was the lack of windows and the strange door setup where it locked from the outside.

743
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,400
When the bodies of the boys were recovered, investigators learned that one of the boys

744
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,200
had lowered himself into the bathtub, filling it with water in an attempt to survive the

745
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:52,480
blaze.

746
00:54:52,480 --> 00:55:00,640
The fiberglass tub melted around him, leaving investigators with a chilling teblow.

747
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:06,320
When I initially covered this horrific double murder on the podcast in April of 2019,

748
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,880
it's episode 114 of your interested in an in-depth look at the case.

749
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,040
I spoke with Kim Spencer, the younger sister of Timothy Fowler.

750
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,560
She believes that locals committed the murders, perhaps kids from a neighboring high school

751
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,720
were involved.

752
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:27,160
But back in 1982, at the time of the blaze, police interviewed teenagers from the nearby town

753
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:33,840
of Petersburg, but the interviews did not move the case forward.

754
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:38,080
Detective Kevin Greca of Lenaway County Sheriff's Department is the investigator in charge

755
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:43,000
of this case, and he told the press that he developed various scenarios leading to the

756
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,360
fiery death of the boys.

757
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,960
But these scenarios generally come back to a disagreement over a girl, or a dispute over

758
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,120
drugs.

759
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:58,080
Kim's sister said that he was not a drug user, but it's possible that he and David were

760
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,960
targeted to send a message to someone else.

761
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,200
Listeners, it's my understanding that some of the people police looked at in this case have

762
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:11,600
since passed away, and that another potential suspect is in prison on charges unrelated

763
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,160
to the Mother's Day murders.

764
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,120
Police believe that even today there are people in the area with knowledge of who started

765
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,080
the fire that led to the deaths of two children.

766
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:28,400
With the right information, Detective Greca is confident that this case is solvable.

767
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:33,140
If you have information about the Mother's Day murders, contact Detective Greca at the

768
00:56:33,140 --> 00:56:35,360
Lenaway County Sheriff's Office.

769
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:40,920
He can be reached at 517-264-5364.

770
00:56:40,920 --> 00:57:04,800
[Music]

771
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:10,840
As we continue to explore the long forgotten cemetery, we notice a secluded corner,

772
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,800
surrounded and creeping ivy, and overgrown plants.

773
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:24,320
Here we encounter Alicia and Sierra, who share a chilling tale from their podcast, twisted

774
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:25,400
and uncorked.

775
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:34,040
Hello everybody, I'm Alicia, and I am Sierra, and we have a story for you.

776
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:39,880
In honor of this Mother's Day episode, we will be telling you about Ma Barker.

777
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:48,720
She was the matriarch of the Barker, Carpey, gang that operated during the 1900s in Chicago.

778
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:55,560
After her husband of 35 years leaves the family, Kate, Ma, Barker, was left to her own devices

779
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,960
and encouraged her son's criminal lifestyle.

780
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:04,720
She became the alleged mastermind behind all of the activity that the gang got up to.

781
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,520
Like all good stories though, we have to go back to the beginning.

782
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:17,800
Kate Barker was actually born Arizona Donnie Clark on October 8, 1873 in Ashgrove, Missouri.

783
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,800
Her parents John and Emily in Clark affectionately called her Ari.

784
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,240
Love the name, Arizona and Ari and Emily.

785
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:27,240
Just put it in there.

786
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,240
Same, so pretty.

787
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:29,240
Same.

788
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:34,920
In 1892 she married George Barker, and they went on to have four sons together.

789
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:45,160
Herman in 1893, Lloyd in 1897, Arthur in 1899, and Fred in 1901.

790
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,040
George would take any job that he could to sport his large family.

791
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:54,040
Even if all of them weren't the best paying in order to put food on the table.

792
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,840
His jobs would range from a service engineer to a clerk.

793
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:05,040
Kate stayed at home and cared for the boys and the home, and in 1910 one of George's jobs

794
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,800
brought the family to Oklahoma.

795
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,160
Hopefully it was better paying.

796
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,840
Most people would focus on settling their roots, continuing to live the All-American dream,

797
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,440
you know, but this was right around the time that the Barker children started committing

798
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,360
crimes in order to make money for the family.

799
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:28,800
They were repeatedly involved in various gang activity and the seriousness of their crimes

800
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,160
would only escalate as they got older.

801
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:36,040
In 1927 Herman died during a robbery shootout.

802
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:41,320
He shot out officer point blank in the mouth and then turned the gun to himself, knowing

803
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,840
full well that guns would soon be on him.

804
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:46,880
That or he just didn't want to go to jail.

805
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,200
The motive behind this action is unclear.

806
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,200
Goodness.

807
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:56,480
After the death of Herman Mr. Barker was crushed and he couldn't stand that his family was

808
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,320
living this way with his wife Kate knowing all about it.

809
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:07,000
He left the family to avoid connection with the criminal lifestyle of his wife and children.

810
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:14,840
From 1928 to 1931 the Barker boys were in prison and was no one to do her bidding for her.

811
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,040
Ma Barker lived a life of poverty often turning to sex work for income.

812
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:27,480
In 1931 when Fred Barker was released from prison he founded the Barker Carpey gang with former

813
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,520
prison inmate and friend Alvin Carpey.

814
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:38,560
On December 9, 1931 Fred and Alvin killed Sheriff Roy Kelly in Missouri during a robbery which

815
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,920
forced Ma and the rest of the gang to flee Oklahoma.

816
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:49,480
A manhunt ensued for Fred and Alvin with Ma listed as an accomplice.

817
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:55,560
When Arthur was released from prison in 1932 he quickly joined the gang.

818
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,560
So no prison reform at all here from anyone it seems.

819
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,000
Just from crime to crime to jail to crime.

820
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,760
The group would be on the run committing crimes throughout St. Paul, Minnesota and Chicago

821
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:13,560
Illinois over the next few years looking over their shoulder constantly for police out

822
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,240
for them.

823
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:21,360
The blutes began portraying Ma Barker as a ruthless killer that would plot their crimes out and

824
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,600
protect the gang at all costs.

825
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:31,600
From this point up until 1935 the gang was highly sought after by the FBI as well for obvious

826
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,760
reasons.

827
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:40,160
On January 16, 1935 FBI swarmed Ma's house.

828
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:45,480
A tip off to police indicated that family was living in Oklahoma, Florida.

829
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:51,520
This resulted in a four hour shootout between the Barkers and police because they refused

830
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,320
to surrender.

831
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:54,320
Jesus.

832
01:01:54,320 --> 01:02:00,240
Alvin Carpey and two of the Barker boys had left the house three days prior for a job, leaving

833
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:06,720
Ma and the youngest of the boys, Fred, alone in the house at the time of the shootout.

834
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,400
Once the smoke cleared, both Ma and Fred were dead.

835
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:17,280
Arthur Barker and Alvin Carpey continued the gang despite all of the losses they had experienced

836
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:24,760
thus far, and in November of 1935 the boys robbed a male train in Ohio.

837
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:32,040
In January 1936 postal inspectors found Alvin Carpey hiding out New Orleans and he surrendered

838
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,000
without a single shot being fired.

839
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:40,520
Clearly he thought better of his next moves after what happened to Ma and Fred.

840
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:50,320
After this the Barker Carpey gang was finally dismantled.

841
01:02:50,320 --> 01:03:03,280
Finally, in the shadows of an ancient crypt, we meet Josh.

842
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:09,880
Josh is my brother, and together we are going to share a terrifying tale of a mother's

843
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:23,960
dark deeds from a podcast we do together, Mystery Inc.

844
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:29,960
Well Shane, we have a story about a mother who gave birth to a legend yet treated her like

845
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,160
a machine.

846
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:36,600
We have seen her daughter to work herself into an early grave.

847
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:41,800
We have all seen Dorothy skipping along the yellow brick road to find her way back home

848
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,240
in the Wizard of Oz.

849
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:50,680
Join by friends she wants nothing more than to go back home to her loving family.

850
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:58,640
If you know about the fabulously tragic life of Frances Gum or her stage name Judy Garland,

851
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:04,000
I bet she would have opted to stay over the rainbow.

852
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:09,600
Legends never die, but they often grow from unnurished soil.

853
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:17,240
Judy Garland was is and will always be mother, but let's learn about the horrible woman who

854
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,720
gave birth to her.

855
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:25,220
An ex-Vaudville actress turned bitter wife and mother who basically sold her daughter to

856
01:04:25,220 --> 01:04:26,860
a studio.

857
01:04:26,860 --> 01:04:30,180
Her name was Ethel Marion Milne.

858
01:04:30,180 --> 01:04:36,460
Without her we would never have met our beloved Dorothy, but maybe Frances would have lived

859
01:04:36,460 --> 01:04:42,540
a longer happier life without the trauma from her mother remaining with her until her

860
01:04:42,540 --> 01:04:45,140
early demise.

861
01:04:45,140 --> 01:04:51,580
Frances was born the youngest of three daughters, two Frances Gum and Ethel Milne.

862
01:04:51,580 --> 01:04:56,340
When the couple found out they were pregnant for the third time, they panicked due to the

863
01:04:56,340 --> 01:05:01,500
financial cost and sought to abort the fetus.

864
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:07,420
After being unable to find someone to do the procedure, the couple, desperate, took matters

865
01:05:07,420 --> 01:05:12,300
into their own hands and did everything they could to cause a miscarriage.

866
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:19,540
They already had two girls and their relationship was rocky and they often separated.

867
01:05:19,540 --> 01:05:26,140
Their efforts went in vain though as Frances Gum was born on June 10th, 1922 in Grand

868
01:05:26,140 --> 01:05:28,360
Rapids, Minnesota.

869
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,260
She quickly became the family favorite.

870
01:05:31,260 --> 01:05:36,100
As even at a young age she had a star presence about her.

871
01:05:36,100 --> 01:05:40,500
Ethel had all of her daughters performing as soon as they could walk.

872
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:45,860
Judy first began appearing on stage at the age of only two.

873
01:05:45,860 --> 01:05:51,540
This was before child labor laws, but they still wouldn't have applied to the poor girls.

874
01:05:51,540 --> 01:05:59,220
Many businesses, entertainment and paper delivery are, let's say, more than lacks about the exploitation

875
01:05:59,220 --> 01:06:03,140
of child labor still to this day.

876
01:06:03,140 --> 01:06:09,740
In 1926 the family moved to Lancaster, California for two reasons.

877
01:06:09,740 --> 01:06:14,620
One was they were hopeful that they could launch the motion picture career of the sisters

878
01:06:14,620 --> 01:06:19,580
who eventually began using the stage name, the Garland Sisters.

879
01:06:19,580 --> 01:06:24,660
As their surname Gum just wasn't glamorous enough.

880
01:06:24,660 --> 01:06:31,580
The second reason was to escape the increasing rumors that Judy's father was gay.

881
01:06:31,580 --> 01:06:35,540
Well that explains her panache.

882
01:06:35,540 --> 01:06:40,300
By the time Judy was 10 her mother began to increase her workload.

883
01:06:40,300 --> 01:06:45,540
It was clear to Ethel that all of her hopes lay with her youngest daughter.

884
01:06:45,540 --> 01:06:52,020
Ethel began putting all three girls on anphetamines to make them wake up and work.

885
01:06:52,020 --> 01:06:56,900
Then she would give them sleeping pills to make them shut off for just a few lucky hours

886
01:06:56,900 --> 01:06:58,900
of rest.

887
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:04,700
Judy said that her mother used to threaten to hurt her if she didn't perform, even when

888
01:07:04,700 --> 01:07:07,060
she was sick.

889
01:07:07,060 --> 01:07:10,220
Ethel would force her to go out on stage.

890
01:07:10,220 --> 01:07:16,380
But she also stated that she only felt loved when she was singing.

891
01:07:16,380 --> 01:07:23,780
In 1935 Judy's father Frances fell ill due to meningitis and died in the hospital, leaving

892
01:07:23,780 --> 01:07:28,100
the girls alone with the will of their horrible mother.

893
01:07:28,100 --> 01:07:33,420
That made Ethel increase her efforts to push her girls to start them even more.

894
01:07:33,420 --> 01:07:38,660
When she began forcing Judy to audition, studio executives worked extremely critical of her

895
01:07:38,660 --> 01:07:44,900
physical appearance and Ethel started forcing their wishes upon her daughter.

896
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:49,980
They made her stick to a strict diet and weight loss pills to prevent her from gaining

897
01:07:49,980 --> 01:07:51,860
any weight.

898
01:07:51,860 --> 01:07:58,540
You know in the Wizard of Oz she has little insert in her nose to give it a better shape.

899
01:07:58,540 --> 01:08:05,460
Eventually she would be put on a diet of black coffee, chicken broth and cigarettes, all

900
01:08:05,460 --> 01:08:07,660
with her mother's approval.

901
01:08:07,660 --> 01:08:13,620
By the time Judy graced our screens as the girl and the Ruby slippers, she had already appeared

902
01:08:13,620 --> 01:08:15,580
in several films.

903
01:08:15,580 --> 01:08:18,500
But Oz is what launched her into fame.

904
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:23,780
For her mother living vicariously through her daughter, it would have been wonderful.

905
01:08:23,780 --> 01:08:28,660
Ethel didn't care about her daughter at all, only keeping her new feeling of finally having

906
01:08:28,660 --> 01:08:30,660
fame.

907
01:08:30,660 --> 01:08:36,100
For Judy was in constant search for plain human kindness.

908
01:08:36,100 --> 01:08:41,900
By 1941 she had married her first husband and quickly became pregnant.

909
01:08:41,900 --> 01:08:47,820
Judy was ecstatic about it and grateful for the opportunity to have someone to love and

910
01:08:47,820 --> 01:08:51,260
to love her unconditionally.

911
01:08:51,260 --> 01:08:57,700
Sadly though, studio executives didn't think being pregnant suited their carefully crafted

912
01:08:57,700 --> 01:09:04,860
image of the beautiful virgin that was in Judy and told her mother to convince her to abort

913
01:09:04,860 --> 01:09:06,820
it.

914
01:09:06,820 --> 01:09:15,140
Judy refused, but her mother still held so much power over her that she went to her home,

915
01:09:15,140 --> 01:09:20,820
made her get in the car and drove her to have the procedure.

916
01:09:20,820 --> 01:09:25,740
She was now in her 20s and a married woman, but the constant neglect from her own mother

917
01:09:25,740 --> 01:09:33,340
held so much power over her that she gave up the one thing she wanted most in the world.

918
01:09:33,340 --> 01:09:35,540
Love

919
01:09:35,540 --> 01:09:40,480
Throughout her life, Judy was married five times and had three children whom she loved

920
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:41,980
and adored.

921
01:09:41,980 --> 01:09:48,780
Liza Menelli still speaks so lovingly of her wonderful and loving mother.

922
01:09:48,780 --> 01:09:53,940
Judy starred in Glow and dimmed several times throughout her short life.

923
01:09:53,940 --> 01:10:00,580
Before she died, she had begun a stage revival and received standing evations each night.

924
01:10:00,580 --> 01:10:04,740
It appeared that she was back and better than ever.

925
01:10:04,740 --> 01:10:09,860
All of that attention must have brought up some of her old demons because she began to

926
01:10:09,860 --> 01:10:12,060
substance abuse again.

927
01:10:12,060 --> 01:10:16,900
The old habit her mother had given her as a child was something she just couldn't

928
01:10:16,900 --> 01:10:18,460
beat.

929
01:10:18,460 --> 01:10:25,500
And on June 22, 1969, Judy Garland was found dead of an overdose in the bathroom of her

930
01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:28,420
rented home in London.

931
01:10:28,420 --> 01:10:32,220
So come to the addiction that her mother had given her.

932
01:10:32,220 --> 01:10:36,780
Her body had been worn out from the brutal conditions that Judy had grown accustomed to

933
01:10:36,780 --> 01:10:39,060
from the age of two.

934
01:10:39,060 --> 01:10:45,380
Ethel Marion Melney died 16 years before her daughter in 1953.

935
01:10:45,380 --> 01:10:49,380
She was living alone and working in the office of a factory.

936
01:10:49,380 --> 01:10:53,700
Her body was found in the parking garage by a fellow employee.

937
01:10:53,700 --> 01:10:57,420
She had suffered from a heart attack on her way into the office.

938
01:10:57,420 --> 01:11:02,140
It was found on her knees leaning against a car.

939
01:11:02,140 --> 01:11:08,940
Ethel had let a studio basically have all ownership of her daughter from appearance to when she

940
01:11:08,940 --> 01:11:11,500
could have a child.

941
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:19,380
On her the addiction that ultimately ended her life forced her to abort a wanted fetus,

942
01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:25,900
abused her into performing mentally and emotionally scarring her forever.

943
01:11:25,900 --> 01:11:29,780
And that's just all the stuff we know about.

944
01:11:29,780 --> 01:11:34,980
The story of Judy Garland is most definitely a sad one.

945
01:11:34,980 --> 01:11:40,940
I had known that the studio had owned her pretty much, but it never occurred to me to think

946
01:11:40,940 --> 01:11:46,780
about how her own mother treated her until now.

947
01:11:46,780 --> 01:11:55,020
As I watched the Wizard of Oz as a kid, Dorothy seemed like an adult to me and so happy.

948
01:11:55,020 --> 01:12:01,060
It goes to show you the phenomenal acting ability Judy possessed, making the whole world

949
01:12:01,060 --> 01:12:09,060
fall in love with her all while being abused and unloved by her own mother.

950
01:12:09,060 --> 01:12:18,380
There's no business like show business.

951
01:12:18,380 --> 01:12:24,740
Our journey through the hidden recesses of motherhood comes to an end, leaving us with haunting

952
01:12:24,740 --> 01:12:28,540
memories and chilling tales.

953
01:12:28,540 --> 01:12:36,180
As we part ways, remember to cherish the love and sacrifices of the mothers in your life.

954
01:12:36,180 --> 01:12:42,340
But never forget the beneath the surface, darkness can lurk.

955
01:12:42,340 --> 01:12:48,900
Thank you for joining us on this spine tingling adventure and a special thanks to all of our

956
01:12:48,900 --> 01:12:54,300
talented podcaster friends for sharing their eerie stories.

957
01:12:54,300 --> 01:13:02,100
Remember all the podcasts you heard are listed in the show notes in order of appearance.

958
01:13:02,100 --> 01:13:04,460
Go take a listen.

959
01:13:04,460 --> 01:13:10,180
Stay vigilant to your listener and we'll meet again in the shadows of our next Macobb

960
01:13:10,180 --> 01:13:10,660
journey.

961
01:13:10,660 --> 01:13:20,660
[MUSIC]

962
01:13:20,660 --> 01:13:44,820
[ Silence ]