[MUSIC]
Hello everybody, welcome to the Radical Candor podcast.
I'm Kim Scott, co-founder of Radical Candor,
an author of Radical Candor in Just War.
I'm Amy Samler, your host for the Radical Candor podcast.
And today is a very special day.
It is Jason Roseoff's birthday, so-
Best day, baby.
[LAUGHTER]
And Viva La France, not only are we celebrating Jason,
Kim and I are going to do something very special today.
Kim, you are going to be taking on the hosting role,
and we're going to be having a conversation
about being out in the workplace.
So the reason why we're doing this is,
Amy wrote a great post the very last day of Pride Month.
And we realized that we often celebrate all kinds of people
in different months, and we had failed to acknowledge Pride Month,
which felt like a bad oversight.
I felt very bad about it, because this is something
I care a lot about.
And so I'm going to sort of kick it off to Amy
to talk about why she wrote the post,
and then we'll keep talking.
That sounds great.
And I will just say, I have not actually
had completely finalized the blog post,
so one way to hold myself accountable is for Kim
to just say about the post.
So now I actually have to actually--
No, you have to finish it.
Now I have to finish it.
It is finished.
It's actually a wonderful post.
Oh, well, thank you.
I'm sure we'll touch on some of the themes.
It felt really important for me to speak up
about being out at work, and I tend to be a more private person.
But I felt given recent headlines.
And I got an email recently from HR dive,
and I'll just quote a couple of the statistics from HR dive.
It's a nearly half of the employees surveyed
in a recent glass doorpole feared being out at work
would harm their careers, and either they
would lose their job, be skipped over for a promotion,
or not be chosen for a project.
There was some other data from the Society
for Human Resource Management Schirm.
40% of LGBTQ+ workers haven't shared their identity at work.
One in five said they thought doing so
would affect their chances of being promoted.
And I realized that I have the ability to maybe help with that.
And so I really want to focus on how
to anyone listening, if me sharing my story,
can help you or help someone you're working with,
then that's what matters most to me.
So that's really my intention for this session, Kim.
I think it's also really important.
That is really eye-opening for me, those statistics,
that I just sort of-- and I think this is often true
when we're coming from a position of privilege.
We assume, at least I assume, that everybody
would feel comfortable in today's world,
especially, maybe not everywhere in the country,
but especially here in California, being out at work.
And that's clearly not the case.
So I think it's really-- I'm glad we're talking about this.
And I want to hear your story, because we were at the same place
at the same time in the mid 1990s.
We were.
It's amazing how we could be late 20s then,
and still late 20s now, and time just seems to have stopped.
So yeah, if we can do-- I don't know if we can put in some sound
of time travel as those pieces of the calendar fall off,
and we're going back to the mid--
Back in time.
To be clear, this is the 1990s.
Like, let's not--
Yeah, let's not--
It's really bad to write.
But nonetheless, it was a different century
when Kim and I were at Harvard Business School together.
And I want to frame this conversation from a couple of places.
One is that-- and there's a piece from Harvard Business Review
that we'll put in the show notes.
But there was a quote that really resonated with me,
which is that the LGBTQ+ community is endlessly
diverse and intersectional in nature,
but many members share a unifying experience
of being othered, particularly in workplace settings.
And I share that, because I really am going
to share from my own perspective.
I know Kim, you're a big believer.
In storytelling, we'll put in some research in the show notes.
But this conversation, I am speaking for myself
from my own experience, mindful that each person is very much
going to have their own experience.
And not only might my experience be different
from a generational perspective from the mid 1990s,
but also acknowledging the privilege
that I did have in many ways of being
at Harvard Business School, the educational opportunity,
this sort of socioeconomic opportunity.
And many other opportunities that many folks in this community
have not had.
So I feel like that's important to name.
And Kim, just from all the work you've done with just work,
is there anything more you want to add to that?
You know, I think that there's people really long for one word.
They want to know what is the quote unquote right thing to say.
And in fact, Amy and Brandy, we were all in a training together.
And the person who led the training was saying what the right,
quote unquote, right words to use, referring
to people who are not straight.
And I remember having this kind of wincing feeling
because I would have preferred that this person, rather
than saying what the right words are,
ask you how you prefer to be identified, each of you.
Because for example, a totally different topic,
but I really hate to be called a girl.
I am an adult and I am not a child and therefore,
but not all women feel that way.
And so I don't speak for all women.
And so I think it's really important to remember
as we're having these conversations and sort of to your point, Amy,
like you don't speak for everyone.
And you'll notice I'm saying not straight.
So we'll get into the vocabulary.
And I'm ashamed to say like, I think you prefer to be called gay,
but I'm not even sure that I know the right word for you.
So I'm going to do this live.
Like what should I say?
I really struggle with pronouns for myself specifically.
And I had an example where in doing a training,
it was important to the organizers that facilitators
put their pronouns in parentheses.
And the intention was a great one, which
is that they wanted to model inclusion and safety.
And I shared with the organizers that I didn't feel comfortable with that.
And I'll tell you why I didn't feel comfortable.
I'll tell you what I did do.
I was doing a training where I was actually a participant.
It was a workshop design session.
And there was a moment where folks were
asked to put their pronouns into the chat.
And I don't feel comfortable with that,
because-- and I know it's ironic because I'm
having this conversation in a public podcast.
But that is for me my story to tell and the way that I want to tell it,
and to put it sort of on a slide in parentheses.
For me, kind of puts me in a box.
And I don't want to be in a box.
Yeah.
And for me, the words actually are feel very limiting to me
and don't really describe my identity.
I would say if I were younger, I would probably identify as non-binary.
But I didn't even learn what non-binary was until about,
I think, seven years ago from my nephew.
You know, like--
It's like, oh, there's a word.
And this is like probably how I've lived my life.
But that word doesn't so much relate to me
because I spent most of my life not having a word.
So what I did in the pronouns was I didn't
want to feel wedged in with words.
And so I put in emojis.
And I think the emojis I chose were like a heart and a rainbow and stars.
And that feels like--
That feels much more like me than they she--
And so again, it's very individual.
But for me, it's a conversation that I
want to have in my own terms rather than sort of a forced conversation
at the start of, for example, a workshop on a slide.
Yeah, yeah, I think that is so important to talk about
because I, for very different reasons,
I also don't love putting my pronouns.
And I do identify as she, her, I guess.
But I just don't want that to be the first thing about.
I would like to live in a world where that's not the first thing
that people notice, where they notice me as an individual.
And who knows how I might identify if I grew up now instead of--
but anyway, Anne Liberra, who is-- who we know--
who is a professor of comedy--
she taught a class last year called "Fuck the Binary."
So for a while, I was tempted to put that.
And then I was like, oh, that may be.
So maybe down with the binary is what I'm going to put in my--
I love it.
And that's completely how I live my life.
And I think, again, for folks who do have privilege
to the extent that we can make people comfortable.
And so I think the pronoun thing is complex.
And I'll just share from my own perspective how that lands.
And I think it actually speaks to this broader question
of how much do we focus on making other people comfortable
and being comfortable ourselves?
And for me, my own journey of this was over-indexing
on everyone else's comfort and not my own comfort.
And so maybe we'll go back in time to the 1990s.
And I realized that I was attracted to women.
And this was quite a surprise.
And so one of the things that happened was I started going out
to date.
And what was available to me at the time
were bars and nightclubs, which wasn't something I had done.
But I was going alone.
And so I was kind of living this double life as a--
I felt like this sort of closeted.
I'd go out and then I'd come back to the school in the morning.
And there would be these stories of regaling around all
of the hijinks that had been going on amongst the mainstream
population.
And I was sitting there like, oh my gosh,
if they only knew what I was doing--
So there was this sense of difference in a fine way,
but also a sense of being out of--
certainly out of the mainstream.
And I did joke.
I don't know if this will resonate.
There was just a piece recently in The Wall Street Journal
about how the H-Bomb may not be as effective as it once was.
Do you know the story about the H-Bomb, Kim?
Yes.
You never wanted to find it.
So the H-Bomb is what happens when
you say that you went to Harvard.
And you create a blast radius around you of--
I mean, my interpretation anyway--
I don't know if this is yours--
is that as soon as you say that, people assume
you're an asshole and a whole variety of other things about you.
And so you try hard not to say it.
That's hilarious.
Well, my interpretation of it from a dating perspective
was that straight men would, quote, drop the H-Bomb
and women would fall at their feet.
That was sort of the dating perception.
My experience as a straight woman is, I would say that.
And men would run.
Yes.
Well, by the way, women would also.
So that was very upsetting for me because I was taught
that if you just say the H-Bomb women will just run towards you.
But that also--
But didn't work out happening in my community either.
So we haven't--
Neither one of us--
No, it was--
It created a blast radius, as opposed to an attraction.
Exactly.
So maybe we had more in common than we think.
So the first thing that I thought is,
why was there no one for you to date at HBS?
And then I started going through, like I must.
And I actually can't think of who you should have
dated from HBS.
So maybe--
Well, one of the things we learned at business school, which
I was not good at, was macroeconomics.
I actually had to take the course, because I'd
been an English major.
And so there's a thing called supply and demand.
There was a rather limited supply.
I knew of one lesbian, and she had a girlfriend.
That was my one--
That was it.
That was that was it.
And--
Like that's surprising.
There were so few lesbian--
I mean, and I think that goes to also,
even some of what you were saying about,
oh, it's surprising that it would be hard to come out.
Yeah.
First of all, how do you know the sort of norm is that everyone
is straight and cisgender and phrases that we didn't have them?
Then.
So first of all, and then there was some sort of club
that was very nascent, and it was as usual, there were more gay men.
So there were--
Well, there were just gay men--
There were more men.
Yeah, so 70% men, 30% women.
That's right.
So people--
People who identified as--
Yeah.
That's right.
I can't think of any non-binary classmates.
But as you said, maybe there were, but we didn't even have the word.
Right.
I mean, I guess there was me, but I certainly was then.
In my second year, when I went out--
and I went out alone a bunch of times
because that was sort of the only option,
and there was no internet dating or anything at the time.
And lo and behold, this guy that I had met a few times
in the first year was at this gay bar.
And so I was just like, oh my gosh, it's so amazing.
And we became best friends.
And that friendship was so meaningful for me
because--
personal, he's so wonderful person--
but also, until that point, I had not
met anyone really where I felt like, oh,
I can see myself living the life that I
thought I was going to have going to business school.
There was no examples of what was possible.
So here's this person, and he's brilliant,
and he's successful, and he's kind.
And it's like, oh, OK, something may be possible more
than sort of my limited view.
And so from my perspective, just that's
why I think visibility is so important.
And it might be very hard now in an era where companies
have all of these ERGs and pride activities and all of that.
There really was none of that when we were going to business
school.
There really was not.
Yeah.
And it's surprising and sort of all-ful,
because this was not that long ago, 1990.
It was like, in 1996, we graduated,
in the second half of the 1990s.
Yeah.
The other thing that's coming up for me here, Amy,
is that I think we had a different parallel experience
in another way, because at business school,
I was dating a man who was much older.
He was 38 years older.
And this was something that both he and I
wanted to keep secret.
I was terrified that if it came out,
people would sort of make all the usual assumptions about me.
And so I was sneaking off to New York
to be with this guy kind of every weekend or every other weekend.
And the men in my section--
and I should say in my section, there
were two men who were gay, so accepting those two guys.
But there was a rumor about me that since I wasn't
dating any of them, I must be a lesbian.
And I proudly accepted that.
I thought, this is great.
This is-- keep saying that.
Well, I never heard the rumor.
I would have--
Yeah, my number.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we didn't know each other, so--
I know.
I would have trusted you enough to tell you the truth.
But almost nobody-- I think I told only one other person
at business school in the early days--
that what I was doing.
And by the way, this is a total aside.
But one of the many weird ways in which Harvard gives you
unfair privileges when it finally did come out,
I was terrified.
Like, oh, everybody's going to say she's
the blonde, gold digger.
And instead, they said, wow, that guy must be really good and bad.
She went to Harvard.
He was like, what?
Anyway, the world is unjust and unpredictable in weird ways.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
And as you share that story, I, again,
first of all, I wish we had known each other.
But I find it very poignant that we were both
going through an experience holding these secrets.
Yeah.
I am a very-- for me, authenticity, living, and integrity
is so important.
And I think the pain of not being able to be fully aligned
in your life is a big one.
So I want to really acknowledge that for both of us.
I also was closeted about my spiritual practice.
And if there's one thing that I am so grateful for with this coming
out process was that it really encouraged me,
inspired me, almost propelled me into spiritual practices
in the '90s that I never would have been really aware of.
But because I was starting to question, who am I?
And if I'm sort of going off the path of the mainstream success
path, it really--
it really brought me into a spiritual path,
which is really the most important thing for me.
And by the way, interestingly, until really the last couple
of years, I think, with the pandemic,
that was something I actually felt needing
to be closeted about as well.
Like, it's like, OK, now come out as--
and we can talk about the word gay versus lesbian,
in other words.
But me being into crystals and walking on fire and breath
work and chicong and all these things
I've done for decades was also something
I was pretty closeted about until recently.
So here we are.
Here we are.
Well, I'm glad you are now talking openly,
because I think it's--
I mean, it is really-- it's a terrible thing
to have to hide who you do love.
I think it's even harder if you have to hide who you want to love,
because how in the world are you supposed to find the person
if you are not able to talk openly about it?
And to be open about it.
Yeah.
And as I was thinking about us chatting about this,
I was reflecting on that burden and being at a company in maybe
20, 20 plus years ago where I was actually penalized for being gay.
And then I went to another company where
I had a very traditional boss.
This was the one who marveled at my typing skills.
And I literally for two years did not once
mention anything remotely about my personal life.
It was as if I-- we talk a lot about, like,
don't be a robot at work.
And I really was.
And the toll that that took on my psyche and just the sort of heaviness
was something that really--
it took a toll.
And I am aware, especially when people
have feedback conversations just how often we
have this baggage from other jobs that
were bringing with us to our current job or other experiences
that people don't necessarily know that were bringing with us.
Yeah.
And if you can't-- if you have to hide who you are,
it really is impossible to do your very best work.
It's like this sort of thing in the back of your mind
that is occupying space that should otherwise
be occupied by what you're trying to get done.
Absolutely.
So when did you finally feel free to come out at work
when were you far?
Maybe you never felt free.
When were you able to?
Yeah.
Well, it's a great question.
I think in some of the articles that will share,
it's not really like a one and done.
It was very much an evolutionary process.
And you mentioned how there was maybe one person
that you felt comfortable sharing your own secret, quote, unquote,
with similar for me in business school.
There were a couple people I shared it with.
I would start to share it here and there
and selectively with friends.
In the workplace, I might be out to one person,
but not to other people.
And so it was sort of an ongoing practice.
Even about 10 or 15 years ago when I worked at a company
where my manager, it was a gay man.
There was a lot of LGBTQ folks in the organization.
I still felt not fully comfortable being out.
And honestly, it has not been until radical candor
where I feel like I can fully be myself.
And the best way to notice that is by following my hair.
OK.
So let's talk about your--
hair.
Let's talk about your hair.
And let's also talk about-- before we get to the--
you have a very good hair story.
But before we talk about your hair,
I thought you were just going to say, good, is the story good?
Or is the hair good?
The hair is lovely.
And all it's forms, the hair is fantastic.
OK.
But the question that I have for you is,
before we tell that story, is what could earlier peers and managers
have done to make it easier for you?
It's such a great question.
And it's hard to, I think, go back in time
to the context in which we were living, right?
I have some ideas about what people can do now,
and the support that I've received now.
Actually, can I phone a friend?
Yes.
OK.
Randy, is there something--
I know you wanted to share a little bit about your own experience.
Is there something from your perspective
that you would have appreciated someone say to you?
For me, it's hard to put myself back in 2000.
No, I feel similarly.
I think that I'm 10 years younger than Amy and Kim,
and I still feel like it was that different.
And my experience of now is working at Radical Candor.
And before that, I worked at a women's website.
So I felt like I could be myself.
But in the experiences before that,
I think it has a lot to do with how society and culture
was at the time toward my identity.
So I am bisexual, which is really challenging in the workplace
because people don't understand.
Bisexuals are often marginalized more
from the LGBTQ community than they are from the street community.
People ask very inappropriate questions,
even in work and settings.
And you constantly have to explain your relationships
about, especially if you start dating someone
of a different gender than the previous relationship had been.
So I felt like it opened me up to significantly more sexual harassment.
And I didn't feel like I could report that.
And I still, too, a very large degree.
I don't think we've made that much progress for bisexuals.
I know people who are in relationships with same-sex partners,
whose partners don't even know that they identify as bisexual.
It's that stigmatized in the LGBTQ community.
That is really hard.
Explain that to me when my child was sort of
wrestling with their sexuality.
And I warned Mars about that.
I said, you're young.
And you may change your mind, and that's OK.
And that's got to be OK.
And they pointed out to me a couple of times
at school that people were doing that.
We're saying you can't change your mind.
And of course you can.
Of course you can.
So I think you're right.
I mean, even in Mars is a much younger generation.
It was still a teenager, much younger generation.
Yes.
I have a friend of mine.
She identifies as queer, but she had been identified
as a lesbian publicly.
And then when she married a man, Twitter came for her.
The community came for her.
She lost all of her friends in the LGBTQ community.
And it made me afraid in a lot of instances
to publicly identify.
Yeah.
Understandable.
And it's really not anyone's business,
because it makes me feel ostracized in one hand
and unsafe on the other hand.
Yeah.
Because you get inappropriate requests
from people, especially on dating sites.
That is really hard.
And to what extent can your co-workers and your manager
help you deal with that difficulty
when you come into the workplace?
Create at least-- I mean, there's nothing
I don't think that your co-workers and your manager
can do about online dating sites.
But what can be a respite?
What can be the place where you go, where you're more free
to be yourself and where you're not experiencing those things?
But how can things be better at least at work?
For me, it's felt like there's been a different way
that I have been talked to by certain people,
because they have-- I don't want to say fetishized,
but that's almost what I think it is.
It's like--
So it's inappropriate, but people don't see it that they think
they have a right to ask you these questions.
Yeah.
So just don't do that.
That would have been helpful to me.
Two jobs ago, where that was happening.
And I didn't really know how to answer those questions.
To tell people who are senior to me to fuck off.
Yeah, or that it's none of their business.
Yeah.
I think that-- I think you're raising a really important point.
Part of caring personally is respecting other people's boundaries.
And having the sensitivity to understand
when you're beginning to trot on territory
that this person just doesn't want to go.
And I think that sometimes people feel
like they have a right to know things that they--
that are just none of their business.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think the conversation you're having with Brandy
is really important.
And for me, it goes back to building one-on-one relationships
at work and understanding what is a boundary for someone.
But as Brandy says, it's a function of both time
and context.
So I wanted to talk about the words and the names.
Originally, I did identify as gay.
And again, this was in the mid '90s.
And I think this was very much a function of my own inner misogyny
and inner homophobia.
And there was a sense that gay felt like a more powerful term
than lesbian.
And lesbian had this connotation, at least at the time,
at least in the context, that I was in of a gym coach saying
hustle up ladies.
And--
And by the way, I would have probably
been happier being a gym coach saying hustle up ladies.
And not to mention in a lot better shape than I am now.
But that was sort of my--
like your own inner ones own, inner homophobia,
the sea that we're swimming in.
And so it's still hard for me to say the word lesbian,
like all these years later.
Let alone the word queer, which feels sort of edgy.
And like, you know, sort of more of a rebel than I am,
although I do feel like a rebel.
There's a lot of baggage around these words.
Let alone when you start labeling yourself that way
and then thinking about how other people are seeing you.
So I think for folks to have a little bit of grace around that
for other people knowing that even just a word or a label,
like what you said about girl, all of these other connotations
and all of the sea that we've been swimming in that we've
absorbed.
Yeah.
And I think going back to the point that you started with--
like, you're not speaking for everybody.
You're telling--
Totally.
--you're being unbelievably honest and making
yourself vulnerable about why you choose the words you choose.
And I think the only responses to respect the words you choose,
like you get to choose how you refer to yourself
and how you prefer that others refer to you.
Yeah.
And I think it's important--
I want to share something from my own experience
that may or may not be either universal or even people
can relate to, which is that I, even whether it's
non-binary or lesbian or these other things
around gender and sexuality.
These are not the primary way through which I move in the world.
And I've done a lot of work on myself
so that those are not--
to your point about, is this the first thing people are meeting me
with?
So I don't need those as adjectives on a first introduction
because that's not the primary thing.
Now, it was a primary thing for me a few decades ago.
And I was working through it.
But I say that because I think in this era that we're in
where there's so much friction around words and labels
and naming, it's so important to name and have visibility
for groups that are underrepresented.
And so even if I don't necessarily need to lead with that
because of my own work and process,
I really want to amplify how important it is
that there's the visibility for each of those groups
and beyond that feels important.
Yeah, and different people are going to feel differently.
I mean, I will go back to my reluctance to put she heard.
There's probably some internalized sexism there.
I've struggled so much in my career with being a woman.
And maybe that's the reason why I don't want to lead that.
I don't know.
So I think you're exactly right.
Like people don't necessarily want to lead with these things
even though they're a quarter who they are
and they're not denying it.
But they don't want to say it straight.
First thing.
So to speak.
It's not the most-- you are Amy.
You are Amy.
That is what is important about you.
Yes.
You are Brandy.
Yes.
I was looking up earlier.
I was thinking about representation in books, TV film,
for bisexuals.
And I got to-- Amy, can you imagine who I'm thinking of?
Kalinda.
Archie Punjabi from The Good Wave.
Kalinda Sharma.
Because she was-- the story was not about her coming out.
She was already out in the workplace and it was fine.
And I had never seen that plot point on television
before where it wasn't about we're making fun of this bisexual
person, we're making some kind of commentary about bisexuality.
It was like, this is just who this person is.
And we're not going to talk about it.
It's just her life.
Yeah.
And that felt very freeing to me to have it be made a non-issue.
But it was part of her storyline because she had relationships.
But it wasn't anyone's focus at her job.
She felt comfortable with who she was.
And still one of my favorite characters to this day.
Something new to watch.
And I think you're right.
It's really important new for me, I should say,
because I haven't said that.
Now I have some good ideas for some stuff to watch with Mars.
I mean, Mars and I were watching Grey's Anatomy during COVID.
And we watched all 19 seasons of Grey's Anatomy.
So we watched a lot of--
and Mars was got very angry at one point.
All the couples who aren't straight,
they won't show the sex scenes.
I wouldn't have noticed if they hadn't pointed it out.
And so I think there's a lot in the ether that is coming at us.
And I think just to go back to quote, coming out,
it seems like, well, why does this need to happen?
But when the sort of the "C" you're swimming in
is showing all of these things, and you
don't have these other examples, like what Brandy just mentioned,
I will say, after business school, I went to film school,
which I've always described as an income minimizing choice.
But at the time, the model of a great story
was boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl.
And so I was like, well, gosh, if that's the hero's journey,
then I guess I'll just have to be the boy meeting the girl.
There weren't really a lot of choices there.
And then you also had to write a screenplay that 13-year-old boys
would like.
It was very complicated.
Luckily at the time, I felt a little bit like a 13-year-old boy.
But nonetheless, when it comes to these stories,
for me, the big moment was when Ellen DeGeneres came out
on her television show.
That was a huge news.
It was a huge moment in the culture.
And I'm sure a large number of our listeners
might have no idea what I'm talking about.
But it was baffling and befuddling
and a huge moment to have a lesbian kiss.
And she came out on the talk show,
but she had a sitcom.
Yeah, yeah.
Just for listeners before she had a--
Oh, yes, before she had a--
She was a comedian.
She had an eponymous sitcom.
And actually, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't looked.
But I do believe the cover of The Time
or The Newsweaker would ever said, I'm gay, which just again,
going back to the time, we'll have to check that.
But just to go back to sort of visibility,
this was a huge deal.
And then often, when you look at old shows from that era,
just how the gay or lesbian are, again,
limited bisexual, let alone LGBTQ, full spectrum,
how this character often was like the friend,
or they didn't get to have the real romantic life,
or they were the serial killer.
It wasn't like a lot of good options.
So shall we talk about hair now, Kim?
Where do you want to go?
Yeah, let's talk.
So you have a great story, Amy, and I want to ask you a question,
because the first time I heard this story
was when I'd asked you to take a look at just work,
and to make sure that I wasn't sort of missing.
And so what I asked you was that, how did you feel about it?
I have never asked you this.
But how did you feel about that request for me?
Was that an unfair request of me to have made?
You need to review just work, just work, especially
from the lens of being gay or lesbian or bisexual,
I ask both Amy and Brandy to take a look at it.
I really appreciated it.
I mean, I love your desire to get feedback.
I love your desire to get inclusive.
And I felt very validated by that ask.
Now, maybe someone else might have thought,
oh, it's extra work, or that's not--
I feel very differently.
I feel like you have such a great thinker
that you asking for my perspective on that meant a lot.
I will say, I can't remember the specifics.
I do think there was an example where I
had shared something private in a comment with you,
but then it was in a more public document,
and I was aware in an asynchronous document,
me sharing something that I would want to share for you
and then all of a sudden, there's all these people's names,
and I'm like, what's going on here?
So I think that's the only caveat.
And again, that's my own privacy of there's things
that I would feel comfortable saying to you,
I don't know who else is hearing that in the document, et cetera.
Brandy, what did you-- how did you feel about that?
I felt fine about it, happy to do it.
And I think that I had talked to you
about having different readers for--
or like an inclusion reading to make sure that--
Yeah.
--communities that you're not a part of are correctly represented.
It feels like so long.
It does feel so long ago.
I know.
It feels like a really long time.
Four years ago.
And so much has changed.
And actually, Brandy, you mentioning that,
I think I was very aware that, again,
I'm only speaking from my own perspective.
I am not an expert in this space, per se.
There are so many-- and especially the intersectionality
around these issues, like I can really only
look at it from my own lens, and it's as limited as it is.
And you put it out something to me that I never would have
thought about, because I was sort of--
I forgot what the story was, but I was talking about the fact
that I always wear men's jeans.
And you point it out to me.
And it's a privilege that people don't make it--
that you can do that without causing people
to give you too much flack about it, which I had never--
Did I?
Yeah, you did.
I was like, oh, gosh, I never would have thought about my wearing
501 shrink-to-fit jeans.
But you're right.
I mean, because I look sort of traditionally feminine,
so nobody's going to say anything, really.
Although, of course, people did.
And my boss wants to win out and bought me a super tight pair.
Not men's jeans, but that's the whole other story.
So and in-personally--
Well, it is.
It's a related story, though, because it's basically
like in many ways, on the surface,
you might present in a way that seems traditionally feminine,
pretty, et cetera, in the definition
of what sort of society would be deemed as straight,
if that's even correct, versus cisgendered.
And if I'm making use of the wrong terms, I'm apologizing.
People will tell us.
Yeah.
We will solicit feedback.
But Amy, you told me in the course of that a really good story,
which I think our listeners would love to hear.
Yeah, I mean, a painful session to say a good story.
It is a painful story well told by you.
Well, as we know, so many of these stories
come from, as the saying goes, tragedy plus time equals--
It's common, and we're in reality.
So I have a lot of stories about my hair.
And I think there's a one human show, one person show about it.
But this specific story, this was about seven years ago.
Should I locate the specific time in which this happened?
This was the day after the US presidential elections
in November of 2016.
And I was traveling.
I was in a more conservative part of the country.
And I had-- this was soon before I was teaching radical
candid at the time.
I was teaching mindfulness and emotional intelligence,
primarily to groups of CEOs and leaders.
And on that specific day, again, the day after the election,
I had two CEO groups.
It was at a country club.
And I had been up the whole night before, and I showed up.
And I was in one of the groups, and they
were very pleased with how things had turned out.
And I had a session that I thought went really well.
Then I had another session.
It was a full day.
I had dinner with the two CEOs who had led this sessions.
And the guy from the first session said, well,
it would have been a lot better.
My members thought you didn't look professional.
And I said, that is all right.
It's like, nobody should ever say that.
Yeah.
And so I said, as soon as what's going to follow
is going to be some bullshit.
OK.
So I said to the other guy, I was like, oh, did you
remember?
I didn't look professional.
And he said no.
And so just to let you know, I was wearing a pinstriped suit.
I was in a business suit.
And I said to the guy who had said it,
I said, I think that might say more about your members
than about me.
I said it very kindly.
And then he said, well, when we hired you on the website,
you had this long straight hair.
And then you showed up here with this short hair.
I mean, he didn't say gay hair, but you know, that's what
you've been saying.
That's what I meant.
Yeah.
So I mean, to be fair, I did have long straight hair.
And it was not an intentional bait and switch,
but they did get me with my short hair.
They did not hurt you for your hair.
Well, apparently.
My boy, second stop.
So then he went on to say, we had this Jewish guy come once,
and he had really curly hair.
And at the very end, it was so unprofessional.
And which time I realized it probably
wouldn't have been the safest thing to say
that the reason I got my hair straight
and was because I had very curly Jewish hair.
But not a beard.
You know.
[LAUGHTER]
Sort of where she did say that.
I know.
You know, you think of all the great--
All the things later.
So one of the reasons came that you and I
talked about this story was because of what happened afterwards,
where I felt so shut down and so unsafe that all I could do
was sort of preserve myself to get to the end of this conversation.
The irony is, of course, that the session was about self-awareness,
and mindfulness.
And--
But it was very challenging.
I will say, there are so many takeaways I had from that.
But one of the things that I took away from that was
I spent much of my time going into rooms where I was the only one.
And Kim, I know you can relate to this.
And I'm sure other folks from other underrepresented groups
can relate to this.
The only woman, the only lesbian, the only Jewish person,
all of these identities that we might hold.
And it gets to be pretty exhausting.
And so it's been such a relief.
Again, working at Radical Candor is the first time where I feel like I
can be who I am and I'm not, quote, the only.
I'm not in those rooms.
And some of that is a function of changing structures.
But if I was going to be in a room of CEOs,
I was usually the only woman in the only LGBTQ person, et cetera.
And it gets pretty exhausting.
The reason I share that is because I was working with a shamanic teacher
years ago and I said, I feel like I should be doing more.
Get my book out, get my ideas out.
And he said, you showing up as you in those spaces is more than enough.
And so I just want to give encouragement
to people listening who might feel tired and sort of the only, et cetera,
that you being you is more than enough.
That is wisdom right there.
Yes.
Something that you said just made me think of you being
in that place in time in 2016.
And I remember you telling me about it.
And I was afraid for your safety.
And I just want to acknowledge my privilege
as I am very feminine presenting.
And I can blend in part of the vibe invisibility keeps me safe
in a way that it doesn't keep other people safe.
Just still in 2023, it can be dangerous to walk down the street.
Yeah, especially and also trans folks.
And I think that's a huge 100%.
Thank you for mentioning that, Brandy.
That is why we're doing this today is to try
to take some small steps towards making the world safer.
For people to be themselves as they walk down the street.
Yes.
One of the things I want to do for folks who are listening
is you might be a straight leader who has people on your team
who are not straight.
And I think it's also OK to remember,
it's OK to make mistakes as long as you encourage people
to tell you when you make a mistake.
So for example, neither Jason nor I and both Jason and I
are straight thought about doing something for Pride Month.
And that was an oversight.
We should have done it.
But you all told us and we wanted to correct it.
But it wasn't--
I don't--
I mean, so I just want to ask for a moment.
I shouldn't say you all didn't care at all.
You probably did care.
Like, how did that feel?
Like, because I think that people-- I think one of the things
I want to say is that we're all going to make mistakes.
And we're all going to do things that we wish we had done
differently.
And I think the key thing here is to make it OK
to be told when you make a mistake and to make it OK
to make mistakes.
That is how we can all show up as our two ourselves at work,
I think, not by being perfect.
I think that's critical.
And I think some of this is generational.
I am so empowered and inspired by younger generations
who are much more advocating, pushing--
I think the way in which you all responded was huge.
But I actually didn't even have an expectation.
And I think that some of this is just
again speaking solely from myself.
Maybe other folks can resonate with this.
It's much easier for me to advocate for other communities.
Yes.
Then it is for me to advocate for myself.
And same.
Yeah.
And thank you, Brandy.
And I am very aware of that.
And I think it's a cultural thing.
And I don't know how much of it is a gender thing.
But I would just say that in the--
having the group knowing that this is in service of a group,
how we can almost support each other to speak up
and advocate for yourself and Kim,
I use so inspire me to the way you share your stories,
the way you acknowledge your mistakes.
And I do think it's so important for folks who
might be on the receiving end of a mistake,
but a mistake that someone's willing to correct.
Can we, even though--
if that person from that workshop that I told you about,
if they came to me in a college--
I would love to hear that.
If somebody makes a gesture like that,
that's the most important thing.
Can we grow from it?
Can we learn from it?
Can we do better?
And we're not going to do better if the penalty
is too high for making a mistake.
We're just not going to try.
Yeah.
And it'll be too hard to tell someone
because like it's a vicious cycle.
So let's talk about what folks can do to support their LGBTQ
plus peers.
I think Jason, Amy, you have a good story
about something that Jason did after a workshop.
Yeah.
I've got several of these stories,
but one that came to mind I was leading a workshop
where it was a group where it was some folks from US
as well as outside US and obviously cultural differences.
And when I talked about care personally,
this person said it was a guy.
And he said, well, caring personally is really about another guy.
That would be so gay in the middle of the workshop.
And I wasn't sure--
I can't even remember how I responded.
I know I didn't.
I'm sure do it so well.
And I went to Jason and like, how would you have done it?
And it's very hard as managers who come
from underrepresented communities can understand what I'm saying,
which is on the one hand, you have the power
as a workshop facilitator.
Like you've got the leadership role,
so you're kind of holding that power.
And yet on the other hand, you might
have an identity where you're actually
being potentially harmed or other people
from that group are being harmed.
And I, you know, not only was, I was, you know,
probably less worried about myself and more
about like, how do I make sure this whole group knows
that that's not appropriate?
And so Jason, not only did he offer me the specific wisdom,
that the point that I actually want
to share with the group was that he made it abundantly clear
that if I ever felt unsafe, that my safety totally,
like, there was a verb I wanted to use that I don't want
to use in this cup, like over.
It's more important than what's more important than any client.
And to feel like, you know, we will often say
before we do the podcast, before we go into workshop,
like, got your back.
And for me, the CEO of the company saying that my safety
will always be more important than a client
that he's willing to sacrifice, you know,
a client situation for that.
Like, that gives me huge, huge comfort.
Yeah, that is really, really important.
Randy, what words of wisdom do you have for folks?
How can they be better upstanders?
I think one thing that you said, which is really important,
is it like, it's not your business.
Like, sometimes there's clumsy, curi-ass, I mean.
I think just don't ask inappropriate sexual
and relationship questions of your coworkers.
Yes.
And like, in a dem-way that is like demanding
that you have the right to know because they are
this kind of exhibit almost.
Yeah, it's how it feels.
Yeah, I think that is really, I think that's really important.
I think also one of the things that I realized
at the end of Pride Month was that the Supreme Court ruling
that came down was really a blow to a lot of people.
And the day, I'm what you can't.
I mean, they could have waited.
And I was on the phone with an ERG group,
a leader of an ERG group who said, you know,
this has been a really hard Pride Month
and then just burst into tears.
And I realized that was also--
and that had happened right before I got your post, Amy.
And so I realized I had failed to understand
what was going on in the world.
There is something else, Kim, based on what you shared
and sort of your reaction of like, oh my gosh,
that's so surprising about folks not feeling comfortable
coming out.
When I shared the story, the hair story, a version of it
in a workshop that I did.
And after I shared it, I did it in the context of a comment
that came up around sort of DEI and belonging.
And so I shared my own experience.
And somebody came to me and he said, oh, that story.
And it was very thoughtful the way he said,
we said, I'm so surprised that happened to you.
Like he was kind of shocked that it happened.
Yeah.
And so I think for folks who want to be allies, upstanders,
et cetera, but I think that understanding of, oh,
I might have thought that it wouldn't have been hard.
That's interesting.
How can I get more curious about barriers that might not
be visible because I don't experience them?
All right.
Well, I know we're getting at time.
I want to thank you, Amy, and Brandy, for sharing.
And I want to say I'm sorry for not recognizing
Pride Month during Pride Month.
But I'm glad we're having this conversation now.
And I'd love to sum up with a radical candor checklist
and sort of help folks know about what they can do
to support their colleagues.
Amy, you want to do the first one?
Sure.
And building on every day can be an opportunity
to support our colleagues, not just a month or a day or however
much is deemed.
So tip number one is give the folks who work for people
who do want to share their stories, a chance to share
their stories, to amplify their voices the way Jason said,
he's happy to support sharing my blog post,
far and wide, sharing this podcast, far and wide,
give people a chance and amplify unheard voices.
OK, tip number two, part of caring personally
is respecting people's boundaries.
Don't ask people questions that they may be uncomfortable
answering.
And don't assume that because you would
be comfortable answering a question that another person
is comfortable answering that question.
Tip number three, building on tip number two,
while we want to be inclusive and acknowledge
and promote visibility, please don't put people in boxes,
whether it's about identity, attributes,
or imposing different vocabulary on them.
Let each person decide for themselves how they want
to define and introduce themselves.
To see the show notes of this episode,
head to radicalcanor.com/podcast, praise in public and private,
criticize in private.
And I want to say, speaking of private criticism, we got some.
And I want to share it with folks.
So if you like what you hear, please
write and review us on Apple Podcast.
And if you have criticism for us, email it to podcast@radicalcanor.com.
And here is some criticism that we got.
So Lynn Cartwright-Pennett sent us a note, letting us know
that I used a word that I shouldn't have in a recent episode.
It's since been deleted.
But the problem is with the-- I used the word lame.
When what I really meant was sort of--
you're not trying hard enough.
And that word has ableist origins.
This is something that I thought I knew.
And I thought I had expunged the misuse of that word
for my vocabulary.
But clearly, I had not.
So thank you Lynn for writing in.
And I'm sharing this here because it's a reminder
that we need to be persistent with ourselves.
These sort of biased patterns of thought and speech
are deeply ingrained.
And it can be hard to get them out, out of our vocabulary
and out of our heads.
I think that example, Kim, is a perfect example
that for the conversation that we just had, which
is that we're going to do our best.
We're going to mess up.
Somebody's going to let us know we messed up.
We're going to fix it.
They're going to be grateful.
We had a lovely exchange around this.
We're all trying to get better together.
And that's really the spirit of this podcast.
Absolutely.
I think we should end on that note.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye for now.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
The Radical Canter podcast is based on the book Radical Canter,
"The A Kickass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity" by Ken Scott.
Episodes are written and produced by Brandy Neal
with script editing by me, Amy Sandler.
The show features Radical Canter co-founders Kim Scott and Jason
Roseoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler.
Nick Perissamy is our audio engineer.
The Radical Canter podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Canter the Company, and visit us at RadicalCanter.com.
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