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So people were to take one thing away from my work and one thing only get away from cruel

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people, get away from cruel people.

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We underestimate the extent to which abiding cruelty just degrades our lives and selves

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and it's unnecessary.

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I really do believe in my heart of hearts that if one thing were taken from my work, let

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it be that.

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Welcome to the Re-Patterning Podcast where we believe your mind body system is your domain

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and that choosing the beliefs, habits and patterns that best support you is your birth

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right.

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I'm your host, Arden Leigh, creator of the Re-Patterning Project, an eight week course in

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learning to free yourself from the patterns of your past and program your mind for your

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dreams of the future.

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Join me for these extraordinary conversations as we unpack the keys to creating our reality.

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Welcome back everyone to the Re-Patterning Podcast.

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I am your host, Arden Lee and I am so excited to welcome today's guest, Mitch Horowitz.

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Mitch Horowitz is one of today's foremost contemporary thought leaders on the occult,

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the esoteric and new thought changing your mind through changing your beliefs, which

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of course, as we know is a whole Re-Patterning mood.

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He is a pen award winning historian, writer and lecturer who explores the intersections

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of metaphysics, ethics and self transformation.

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He is the author as of now since his new book is just coming out.

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He is the author of 20 books, 20.

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And so I'm so excited to welcome him today to discuss his new book, Esoterika, with us

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today on the show.

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He is also featured in critics choice nominated and Sundance premiering films and he's also

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shown on numerous TV shows as an occult expert and historian.

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And I'm so excited today to discuss with Mitch his new book, Esoterika, formulas against

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the false self, which I've been lucky to read an advanced copy of right here on my iPad

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so we can chat about it today.

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And I also recently read Mitch's book, Daydream Believer, we actually studied this in my advanced

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container, the magnificent order of advanced Re-Patterning last month.

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So it's also fresh in my mind.

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So I'm really excited to get to now ask Mitch all the questions that I have about his work,

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which is quite prolific.

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Mitch, how are you doing today?

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I'm great and it's wonderful to be here.

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Thank you, NT, you and your group for reading Daydream Believer.

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That's a favorite book of mine as well.

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We really enjoyed it.

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It was really fun.

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And we got to try out some of the suggestions and exercises that you put in the book and

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we had some really cool results as well.

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So maybe at some point in the conversation we'll share about that today.

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But I know that we're mostly here to discuss your new book,Esoterika.

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So first of all, I also wanted to say before we dive into that that I'm aware that you

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posted on your Instagram not too long ago that you recently had a hospital stay.

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So I wanted to say first of all, thank you for being here in both the greater and more

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immediate senses of that meaning.

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And how are you doing?

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Well, I'm doing really well.

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I'm very much on the man feeling vastly, vastly better.

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It was a scary episode.

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It wasn't cardiac related, but I had my hemoglobin levels that shot way down.

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We didn't know why.

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We still don't know why, but my recovery has been stellar and all is going well.

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I'm so curious if you used any of your new thought exercises in order to think your way

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into a healthy timeline after that happened.

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Well, I've always had a focus on dynamic physical presence.

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And it's funny, Arden, in a certain way.

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I think that we all have to be careful not to retrofit meaning to events because there's

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a natural human tendency to want to reinterpret accidents according to some map or intentional

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framework.

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If that caution said, I find it's not uncommon that when the individual names a goal, and

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I had named a goal as being possessed of real dynamism physically, that was a goal that

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I was very, very focused on for various reasons.

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These things can reach us through whatever are the most readily available channels.

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And those channels can be very unexpected.

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Mother Nature will cooperate with us in her own way, not necessarily in the way that matches

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my mind's eye picture of what should be happening.

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So dig this as I write about in Esoterika because I believe that spiritual communicators owe

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it to their audience to be very transparent.

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I was consuming booze and weed almost every night.

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It's just a simple matter of enjoyment and stress, but it was excessive.

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It was simply excessive.

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And I knew it as transparent with my doc about it.

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And organically everything's fine with me, but that can't be a good thing.

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Drinking tumblers of bourbon and toking up every single night can present issues.

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And so quite frankly, this health episode, I know it sounds so common to say this, but

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I can't avoid the truth.

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It jared me to a place of changing those habits.

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So the passages that readers will encounter in Esoterika, which I'm proud of because they're

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transparent and they're real, where I talk about excessive substance use, that has changed.

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And so a wish, which in my case was physical dynamism, a wish will reach you in unexpected

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and sometimes jarring and disruptive ways.

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Don't condition it because if you condition it, I think it will delay arrival, which is

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not always a bad thing in and of itself.

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There may be a place for conditioning a wish.

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Apropos of ethics and things of that nature, which have due cause.

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But I didn't condition it.

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And yes, it reached me.

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So that's my, that's my health story.

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That was actually one of the things that I really loved about reading Esoterika was your

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unpacking so brilliantly, the ways that, and I feel like this is the quintessential question

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that every magician faces, which is like a lifelong question, which is, do you leave it open?

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Do you say like, whatever is in my highest good, do you leave it as big as possible?

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Or do you get super specific?

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As exactly as you said, the more specific you get, the smaller the available channels or

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like the lesser the probability of something being able to come in.

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At the same time, if you leave it super big, sometimes, you know, I always joke in when I

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start teaching people magic in some of my classes, I always joke about the story that I heard

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about a woman who wished for a man to show her the world.

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And what happened was one of her clients started sending her all his vacation photos.

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Right.

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So it's like, how specific do you get?

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So what is your process around that when you make a wish or when you cast a spell or do some

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sort of a ritual or set an intention?

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Where do you find that sweet spot?

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That's a wonderful, wonderful question.

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I take very seriously as do you and your audience members the efficacy of cyclical intention.

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I do believe it is lawful.

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In my estimation, it's not a super law.

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I don't think we function under one mental super law.

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There are all kinds of counter-vailing currents in our world.

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We live under a complexity of laws and forces and a law in order to be such must be consistent.

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But of course, water, H2O, will take different forms depending upon temperature.

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Gravity will take different forms depending upon mass.

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So none of this is particularly easy or responsive to expectation.

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In consistency is part of the process as well because of surrounding conditions.

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That said, I really honor your question because it seems to mean that the magician, the seeker,

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if he or she works with cyclical intent, which really we're all doing all the time in one

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measure or another, including those of us who engage in petitioner prayer, for example.

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The question is where and when is conditioning called for.

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Now one of the things I write about in Esoterika is that conditioning is a reasonable thing

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to do.

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It can slow arrival because it restricts the channels of natural occurrence.

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And things will reach us as I was alluding through familiar channels and those channels or I might

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add a caveat to that, familiar channels that might sometimes seem mundane so much so

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that were apt to disregard arrival, but also unusual channels, channels that might challenge

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us.

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For example, somebody who's into alopathic medicine might find a solution through some alternative

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modality and vice versa and vice versa.

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You know one really can be very challenged.

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There are areas where I will condition a wish.

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For example, I do a lot of television and screen work.

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There are things I will not do in that world.

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I will not, for example, engage in anything that humiliates another person or that derives

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entertainment from witnessing another person humiliated.

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And frankly, that's a big part of unscripted television and there's a big chunk of my

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medium in which I will not participate for that very reason.

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That's sacrosanct that cannot be be altered.

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But there are other areas of life and I ask people to listen to this very carefully.

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If you feel there's something for which you're so truly hungry that it almost feels like

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the drawing of breath itself, there may be instances where abstaining from conditioning will

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hasten arrival.

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Arrival may come in a way that's jarring.

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I wasn't expecting to be hospitalized.

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When I asked for physical dynamism, I wasn't particularly specific and I didn't expect

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that a health crisis would help move me off of problematic habits, but there it was.

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So if you want something and you want it the way that a parched person wants a drink of

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water, don't condition it.

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But one must be prepared.

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I want to tell very briefly a sardonic story, apropos of what you were saying about your

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colleague who suddenly discovered someone who started sending her his vacation photos.

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This is really a true story and I swear to God it's going to sound made up because it's

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just so bizarre but it's a simple fact.

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I correspond with prisoners and I correspond with a man who's in prison out west in Brooklyn

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in New York City.

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And he is a therapist.

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He has an advanced degree in social work and he does therapy in a peer to peer program

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within his prison.

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And he told me in a letter that at some juncture of his life, he was so excited about his therapeutic

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training that he made the wish.

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I just want to do therapy all day long.

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I don't care about the money.

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I just want to roof over my head, a place to sleep in three meals and he was like, well, now

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I've got it.

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And one has to pull out for that human admission and he saw the sardonic humor in it.

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Is there a direct connection?

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I leave it up to the listener.

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But these are questions that we face determining whether the condition things are not, even

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if the stakes aren't as high as what my colleague was depicting.

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Yeah.

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Oh my goodness.

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What a heartbreaking but terrific example of that.

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I loved in the very beginning and the introduction of Esoterika.

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You wrote this sentence where you're talking about because of course the subtitle of Esoterika

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is formulas against the false self.

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And so you introduced the false self.

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And it's so spoke to me and the work that I do in Re-Patterning and the sentence was that we

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traverse life with a menu of say 20 or so responses and claim selfhood.

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Like we get into these automated patterns of responding to things around us and we slip

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into automaticity.

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You know, we slip into into just going on autopilot and doing the things that we were conditioned

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to do.

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And share with us how Esoterika helps us to create greater agency, you know, maybe going

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from 20 responses to hopefully maybe about a hundred or so or thinking more about what

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responses we're giving.

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Well chiefly, I want people to feel at liberty to express themselves in how their life is

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conducted.

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And as much as I greatly value the therapeutic culture and I value the manner in which

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the therapeutic culture has given us concepts and language that weren't available to previous

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generations, I think there are areas where one must be very astringent in life.

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For example, I believe that both adults and children or adolescents are sometimes just

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a gregiously misplaced.

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They're living in the wrong place.

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They're in the wrong company.

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They're in the wrong setting and it will drain the life out of a person to get inert to this

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idea that I have to build up some sort of verbal jujitsu where I have to find a place of non-response

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within myself.

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We're not built that way.

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We're emotional beings asking the individual to abide a place of non-response is literally

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like asking a horse not to jump at a loud noise.

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It's in the nature of the being.

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And when the individual feels diminished or insulted or smeared with backhanded compliments

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or subtle put downs, which a lot of people feel in their social circles, they feel they have

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to put up with it.

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They feel they have to find a solution from within.

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They feel they have to find some method or means of dealing with it.

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And I think that's diametrically mistaken and immense lives of suffering that can be better,

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happier, more agentic lives.

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So that's one manner in which I referred to the false self in the subtitle.

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I think that our spiritual traditions, including our alternative spiritual traditions, our

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therapeutic traditions, positives they are in some regards, and just general peer pressure

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cement us into lives that we don't want and shouldn't put up with.

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And this is true for young adolescents as well.

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And I just don't want people to feel that they have to obey the rules of the road, which

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can be corrupt.

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You know, I noticed a bit of a tonal shift between daydream believer and Esoterika.

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And daydream believer, I really found to be an overall really optimistic book, an optimism

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that is perhaps at times fraught, you know, you admit to struggling, I want to say struggling

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with, but dealing with anxiety throughout your life.

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And an optimism that is very transparently strived for in many ways, but nonetheless that

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driving, you know, wish, try, be, you know, create.

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And I noticed in Esoterika, there was a tendency toward unpacking some of the more negative

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aspects of life, like a trail, like you talk about peer pressure and things like that.

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And it's interesting because it actually, it comes to me at a time where I am dealing

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with probably one of the biggest betrayal traumas that I've faced in my life.

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So there was a part of me that was like, like, oh, Mitch, like, I want to see you reach

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for the stars again.

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And there was another part of me that was like, oh, I feel this.

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So hard right now and I can't wait to have this conversation when we take the episode.

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So I'm curious, like, what for you?

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Do you think, you know, inspired you to speak about those more kind of, you know, grievous

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or difficult aspects of the world we live in?

235
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I appreciate that question.

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It is in a stringent book.

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It's written with a great wish for the reader's happiness, but there is a very marked

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astringency in it. And I am worried, you know, here on the eve of the book that that

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astringency may be too coarse at times or at least for certain readers, but it has a purpose

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behind it and has a very great wish behind it.

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And that is to acknowledge these areas of life where we often encounter friction and

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suffering.

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And I think that we as a culture as full-throated as we are in so many ways as granting of license

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as we are in so many ways, but do a poor job addressing problems of betrayal, humiliation,

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cruelty.

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These are parts of life from which I will not turn away in so far as it would be corrupt.

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You know, it really would be corrupt.

248
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I mean, life is a yin yang.

249
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Life is as above so below.

250
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Life is a DNA strand.

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You know, this interwoven with happiness, joyousness and tragedy and suffering.

252
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The world right now in 2026 and this is going to hold true permanently is in a kind of downward

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spiral.

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I think we as a human community are increasingly mechanical or increasingly given to a kind

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of airsets, existence, the ancient sex that are referred to under the label of nosticism.

256
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I think ponte us rightly for defining something very real about our era.

257
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And I appreciate your sharing that you just suffered of betrayal.

258
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I write about betrayal in the book.

259
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,720
I had someone who I considered a very close friend who betrayed me in a business arrangement.

260
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It's shocking to me to this day.

261
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It will remain so.

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We haven't the way to digest these things because we as individuals yearn for safety, relationship,

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all the natural things that make a person feel that he or she has a rain-resistant roof overhead.

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And when we discover that that's not necessarily true, it's deeply shocking.

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We also function, I'm speaking to those of us here in the United States or North America.

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Most of us, most of the time, function with a relative degree of physical safety, security.

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You turn on a light switch, the electricity comes on, you go to your refrigerator, there's

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something to eat, you turn on the faucet, there's clean water.

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Vast numbers of people in the world cannot count on that.

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And we've grown so cushy in our outlook on life sometimes, even as we suffer, that I feel

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that a more astringent point of view proves necessary.

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And I encounter people all the time within new age culture, in which I've been in sconce

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for decades, including widely known teachers, including people who are household or near

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household names.

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And I can assure you from direct experience, they are as weak or weaker than I am.

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They fly into rage over nothing, they get wildly angry of some reward to which they believe

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themselves do is withheld.

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And yet all of this vanishes when the camera goes on.

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And I resent that because it leaves audience members with the misimpression that so and so

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has it together.

281
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And if only I could be like him, and it's a fallacy.

282
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And if that fallacy is exposed, which I attempt to do in the book without naming names, because

283
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,240
I'm not into sensationalism.

284
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But if that fallacy is--

285
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You want participate in humiliation of another person.

286
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,240
I really try not to.

287
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:18,680
If that fallacy is exposed, then it's good because it helps us realize that we're all

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00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,600
basing the same circumstance and so and so because he or she has ten bestselling books

289
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:34,840
or appears on your favorite show is not liberated from the circumstances that you or I face Tuesday

290
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,120
at 3 p.m. in the afternoon or whatever it is.

291
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:39,600
And why can't we start there?

292
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,800
Why can't we start there?

293
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:48,440
If we could start there, it would make us feel more possessed of real exchange, real search

294
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,000
and realism.

295
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:56,880
So this book is an attempt at restoration of realism, but also as I said, with a great

296
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:03,600
wish for the reader's happiness because the things that I'm attempting to prescribe

297
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:12,000
or suggest if the individual wants to try them will, I believe, result in greater happiness.

298
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,480
Yeah, I really appreciate it also what you said about, like, don't tolerate disrespect.

299
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,800
I think you may have said it this way in the book, but once is enough, one instance of disrespect.

300
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:31,040
That, I guess, that too is a question that I have is that oftentimes we walk away from people

301
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,960
because of that kind of disrespect, even when we give them the opportunity to fix it, even

302
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,080
when we feel like we have really been above board and just being like, "Okay, well, then

303
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,160
that's your choice, goodbye or whatever."

304
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,880
And that those folks rather than have a corrective conversation and say, "Hey, you know

305
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:47,880
what?

306
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,880
I'd like to repair our friendship.

307
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800
Maybe I don't even understand maybe why you walked away because maybe the behavior I'm

308
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,880
doing is so unconscious that, you know, but I'm open to hearing or can we talk about this

309
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:57,880
or whatever?"

310
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,640
And instead, they're so angry that you walked away from them that they literally try to

311
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:03,640
destroy you.

312
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:10,040
So I guess what I wanted to ask you today is also about the dangers of revoking access

313
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,960
to yourself from dangerous or disrespectful people.

314
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,280
You know, what would you recommend in terms of safeguarding?

315
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:23,040
Well, I would say that most of us maintain too many relationships.

316
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:29,560
We do the digital culture probably come in touch with more people in a day that our prime

317
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,800
evil ancestors may have in a lifetime.

318
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:43,360
And I think we as a culture, due to the artifice of digital media, maintain really an

319
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,680
excessive degree of relationships.

320
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:56,000
As a parallel to that, I would say, disrespect always repeats when it occurs, unless it's

321
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,560
a mistake or a misunderstanding and clearly so.

322
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,920
And usually that will out itself, that will sort itself out, you know.

323
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:12,440
When, when disrespect occurs, especially when you feel it kind of on this subtle level,

324
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,440
it repeats.

325
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:23,040
And my perception is that a lot of people suffer that silently, feeling the embarrassment

326
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,600
that, oh, I don't want to say anything, I don't want to seem reactive, I don't want to

327
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:32,120
seem negative or, well, my shrink says, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

328
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:38,520
I think that we as a human community stagger under an excess of hostility.

329
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,680
I would say hostility is the chief problem of human nature.

330
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,920
And look, everyone to a person around the globe to render this macro for just a moment in

331
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,400
service of bringing it back to the intimate, you would not meet a single person anywhere

332
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,080
on earth in any time setting or circumstance who wouldn't agree that war is horrible.

333
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,920
We all want an end to war.

334
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,560
It's irrational, it's crazy, it results in nothing positive.

335
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:13,160
And yet that attitude, which we all profess to hold in a full-hearted way, produces exactly

336
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,120
nothing, exactly nothing.

337
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:25,000
We stagger, we stagger as a human community under tremendous amounts of hostility and stress.

338
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:31,400
Most of it, in terms of our private lives, our intimate lives, there are global conditions,

339
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:37,640
planetary conditions that have a greater macro stream, but in terms of our individual

340
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:48,200
lives, we don't sufficiently avail ourselves of possibilities and necessities for getting

341
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,200
away from that.

342
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:56,040
And you'll find that there are enormous degrees of pure conformity that we get locked

343
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,480
into, apropos of those problems.

344
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:09,360
And so I'm trying to give people a sense that this kind of descending relationship and taking

345
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:14,400
is widely recognized in esoteric philosophy.

346
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,520
And it's not something in which we need to feel locked in.

347
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:27,800
I say to people, for example, who are looking for relationships, I understand the pains and

348
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:35,000
the pain of loneliness, and it is something I wish on no one, but I warrant that it is finer

349
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:44,160
and better to be nobly alone than it is to settle for a compromised company.

350
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:50,880
Return to that, there is an ability in the individual, and it starts with self-observation,

351
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,280
and it starts with a certain degree of self-standards.

352
00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:02,360
And if only we realized how radical and yet also exquisitely available, some of these steps

353
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:03,840
are.

354
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:10,520
You actually provide in the book a three-part approach to separating from cruel people.

355
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,920
Would you like to share some of that?

356
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,840
I'd love to hear you talk about that.

357
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,840
Sure.

358
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:22,320
My suggestion is to get away from cruelty immediately and burn your bridges behind you.

359
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:29,400
There are cases where that's impossible because of domestic situations, economic situations,

360
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840
employment situations, and I really do recognize that.

361
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:39,120
First and foremost, it's important to just acknowledge the problem to oneself, absolutely

362
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:46,240
acknowledge the problem, and do not confront the other individual with the acknowledgement

363
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,320
because you will get wounded all over again.

364
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,120
You talked about 20 stock ways of behaving.

365
00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:01,320
Every bully has five stock ways of behaving, and it starts with, I was only joking, you're

366
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,320
being too sensitive.

367
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,560
I don't know what you're talking about.

368
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,640
You will get wounded all over again.

369
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,480
The purpose is to acknowledge it within, not to seek out confrontation that will only result

370
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,040
in further sorrow.

371
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:20,760
The second thing is to vow with deadly seriousness that you recognize the dynamic that's going

372
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,520
on, and even if you're locked in place, and some of people are locked in place, that's just

373
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,040
a fact of life.

374
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:36,240
You will at the first possible physical opportunity get away from that situation, person, circumstance,

375
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,240
what have you.

376
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:43,960
Then, third and finally, when that opportunity comes, act on it without fear of consequence.

377
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,240
There will be consequence.

378
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,080
I could never say to somebody there's not going to be consequence, but frequently try to

379
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,400
dig this.

380
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:57,360
Anxiety by its very nature is anticipatory, and it's not what's occurring, it's what I'm afraid

381
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,360
is going to occur, and anxiety by its very nature is amplifying.

382
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:10,080
The consequences, they will exist, but they're usually a great deal milder than one expects.

383
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,360
For example, let's say of a hostile in-law, just to choose a random example, and you want

384
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,120
that person, persona, non-grata in your house.

385
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,920
Well, my spouse will be angry, there'll be this problem, there'll be that problem.

386
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,160
Try it, try it.

387
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,840
The consequences will probably be a good deal milder than you believe.

388
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:39,960
I would also add a proposal of our relationships, which is usually the areas in life where

389
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,840
we experience the greatest suffering.

390
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:51,440
There are, let's say, person as kids, and they want positive adults in the life of that kid.

391
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440
There are lots of positive adults in the world.

392
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,160
If you have a family situation or a domestic situation where there's suffering or sorrow

393
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,120
or unhappiness, you can find positive influences.

394
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,940
They're there, but they may not become available unless one is willing to step off the

395
00:30:09,940 --> 00:30:13,060
off of a currently occupied rung.

396
00:30:13,060 --> 00:30:17,800
I think there's a metaphysical, quick pro quo in that.

397
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,240
Something has to be given up, something has to be sacrificed.

398
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,460
Our primeval ancestors made sacrifices all the time.

399
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:31,460
That term runs throughout spiritual literature, especially here in the West, and a kind of

400
00:30:31,460 --> 00:30:35,420
sacrifice is leaving behind a situation.

401
00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:45,060
That sacrifice will, I believe, make you a creditor versus a debtor and nature will place

402
00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:46,540
itself at your back.

403
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,140
Yeah, I have had that experience as well.

404
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:53,460
Something that I talk about in the Re-Patterning project all the time is just this idea that

405
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:56,020
there are eight billion people on the planet.

406
00:30:56,020 --> 00:31:00,360
Whatever you think you need that you're getting from someone, can you at least expand your

407
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,300
mind to imagine that there might be a different person out there from whom you could get

408
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:11,060
that same need met without the disrespect that is coming from your present situation?

409
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:14,840
The one thing I will say that I differ on, not necessarily disagree because I think we

410
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,300
agree on the values of it is about going back and letting that person know what their behavior

411
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:21,300
is.

412
00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:27,420
What I agree with you on is I don't do it from a place of seeking their approval or actually

413
00:31:27,420 --> 00:31:29,180
expecting them to change.

414
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:36,660
I do it from a place of I know from myself now and my own integrity that I have warned you

415
00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:41,380
that I have been explicit to that I have said exactly what I see is going on.

416
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:44,320
And then if you continue to deny it, I would say, oh, you're too sensitive or you're this

417
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,780
or whatever, then it's like, okay.

418
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:53,780
And for me, also, I think that gives me a certain, like, permission also to walk away and

419
00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:56,460
to know that I at least tried.

420
00:31:56,460 --> 00:31:57,700
I'm like, okay.

421
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,100
I gave it that last shot.

422
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:00,100
You didn't take it.

423
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:01,100
So, oh, well.

424
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:02,100
I understand.

425
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:03,100
I understand.

426
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:05,540
I understand where you're coming from.

427
00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:11,180
So one thing I really loved also toward the end of the book, you talk about capacity before

428
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:12,460
achievement.

429
00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:16,940
You talk about when you're making that wish or doing that ritual, setting that intention,

430
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:21,180
whatever that looks like for the individual practitioner, you talk about the difference

431
00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:28,980
between asking for the thing, the final result versus asking to become the person who can

432
00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:29,980
hold that.

433
00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:31,860
And of course, I also think that we can do both.

434
00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:37,420
But this has been for me one of the primary ideas that I've tried to push with Re-Patterning

435
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:42,820
is that the Re-Patterning project is all about become the person who can have the thing that

436
00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:43,820
you want.

437
00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:46,980
And that is going to make all the difference.

438
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:51,860
And quote, a person in the book by the name of, I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly,

439
00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:52,860
San Ray Duffout.

440
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:53,860
Yes.

441
00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:55,860
I think that's right.

442
00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:56,860
Yeah.

443
00:32:56,860 --> 00:32:57,860
Excellent.

444
00:32:57,860 --> 00:32:58,860
Go me.

445
00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:00,060
It's this beautiful quote.

446
00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:05,380
If you want to manifest love into your life, the correct and fastest way to do that is to

447
00:33:05,380 --> 00:33:11,300
work on making yourself into the ideal partner for the partner that you want.

448
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,340
And of course, for me, this is also very relevant to the twin flame path, which the twin

449
00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:19,660
flame path, when done correctly without all the distortions and the cultic nonsense that

450
00:33:19,660 --> 00:33:26,460
is out there is about undoing all of the barriers and all the conditioning in yourself that

451
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:29,260
is blocking the receiving of true love.

452
00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:34,980
And so the mythology goes that if you do that in yourself, that other person who is spiritually

453
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:40,620
yoked to you, if they truly are, and it's not just your, you know, limerence casting a

454
00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:46,580
delusion of attachment or whatever, then that person will also rise with you because you

455
00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:48,380
are accorded in that manner.

456
00:33:48,380 --> 00:33:53,540
And then, you know, you get to that inner union, which produces your external union, etc.

457
00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:59,300
And I've had this debate with so many occultists in particular who really, you know, the difference

458
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:03,660
between say like, all right, I'm going to, like, I'm going to do this on myself.

459
00:34:03,660 --> 00:34:04,660
I'm going to change myself.

460
00:34:04,660 --> 00:34:08,340
And then I'm going to ask for the things that are in my high as good, that are a part

461
00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:10,420
of my true will, that are a part of my Dharma.

462
00:34:10,420 --> 00:34:14,180
Knowing because I have a good amount of self worth that those things that are meant for me

463
00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:17,500
are actually going to be amazing and not any kind of compromise.

464
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,620
And then you have these occultists over here who were like, I just want the thing that

465
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:21,620
I want.

466
00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:25,420
And they think that asking for the thing that they are actually in alignment with is going

467
00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:29,340
to get them a substandard result, which is I'm like, I'm telling, you're telling on yourself.

468
00:34:29,340 --> 00:34:31,820
You're telling what you think of yourself, you know?

469
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:36,180
And I've asked this to like a few guests on the podcast because it's something that still

470
00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:40,260
I feel like is an argument that is so difficult to make to people who are entrenched

471
00:34:40,260 --> 00:34:42,980
in those beliefs where they're just like, no, I just want what I want.

472
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:47,460
How do you tell those people like, how do you convince them to do it in this other, again,

473
00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:49,580
capacity before achievement?

474
00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:51,300
It's an interesting question.

475
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:55,260
And I mean this not as a dodge, but with total sincerity.

476
00:34:55,260 --> 00:35:01,340
I respect both sides of the equation because I understand, for example, that an individual

477
00:35:01,340 --> 00:35:04,860
might feel that here she wants something so completely.

478
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:09,820
And it feels so completely right that they won't condition it even to the point of

479
00:35:09,820 --> 00:35:12,300
being ready for it.

480
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:17,340
And maybe that's what happened to me with my hospital stay.

481
00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:24,260
And I'm not saying that in a somber or melancholy way, it's just the nature of life and its

482
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:25,740
currents.

483
00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:33,820
And I think that if the individual is prepared to shoulder the risk of receiving without

484
00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:38,580
necessarily being prepared, I won't box that person in.

485
00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:40,500
It's a danger.

486
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,060
And I go back and forth myself.

487
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:46,260
Sonres, comment, touched me very deeply.

488
00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:53,740
I had heard that comment from him at a time where I was getting together with Dr. Tony

489
00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:59,940
Nader, who's a lovely man, a neuroscientist and MD, who's the head of the worldwide transcendental

490
00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:04,100
meditation movement, which is a movement that's very important to me.

491
00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:10,980
It was interesting, Dr. Nader makes the point that consciousness is all there is, that everything

492
00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:18,260
that is contains some degree of consciousness is just a question of strata or scale.

493
00:36:18,260 --> 00:36:23,460
So if you were to ask him, is or can AI ever be conscious to which most people are

494
00:36:23,460 --> 00:36:28,700
possibly saying, no, of course not because it is in solsar sense of selfhood.

495
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:33,860
He said, well, of course, you know, it is conscious and it will become more conscious in the

496
00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:39,140
same vein that, you know, the table that's in front of me is conscious to the extent that

497
00:36:39,140 --> 00:36:44,340
it might feel the impact of gravity or weight, which he would describe as a certain scale

498
00:36:44,340 --> 00:36:48,140
of consciousness, even though it's particularly compared to the human being.

499
00:36:48,140 --> 00:36:55,220
So the idea is, do I possess the awareness, the capacity, the patterning as you put it

500
00:36:55,220 --> 00:36:58,580
to sustain the thing wanted?

501
00:36:58,580 --> 00:37:05,540
And the answer to that may sometimes be no and the individual can work on that, what

502
00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:11,780
might be root issue and that might be a longer road and that might also be a road that goes

503
00:37:11,780 --> 00:37:17,060
someplace that the me that wants doesn't necessarily like.

504
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:22,020
Then again, the me that wants also has its claim, its legit claim.

505
00:37:22,020 --> 00:37:27,060
And one of the things I try to be careful of in spiritual culture, and you'll see this

506
00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:34,660
as a carryover from from daydream believer, I think sometimes, I think sometimes the individual

507
00:37:34,660 --> 00:37:40,420
sense of what would make him or her happy gets gets taken.

508
00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:46,940
It will get either conditioned or a swaddessant spiritual teacher will frame the question

509
00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:51,460
of, well, which eye inside you is asking for this or what have you.

510
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:56,460
And my content is that the mature sensitive individual, including an adolescent for that

511
00:37:56,460 --> 00:38:01,420
matter, knows what would make him or her happy.

512
00:38:01,420 --> 00:38:07,860
I don't, I don't want to see that question that wish, you know, get taken from the individual.

513
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:13,340
So I think we're given the prospect of playing both sides of the street.

514
00:38:13,340 --> 00:38:19,260
I've seen people who can't gain fame, for example, and they egregiously fuck it up and they

515
00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:25,660
suffer and their relationship suffer because, well, I don't even need to finish a sentence

516
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:31,380
because they just weren't prepared to pay the price in terms of selfhood that maybe would

517
00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:37,460
have made that circumstance happier for them in some ultimate sense or happier to live

518
00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:38,460
with.

519
00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:40,420
And would they do it over?

520
00:38:40,420 --> 00:38:45,940
Would they give up the thing that they attained to avert the pain that that was caused?

521
00:38:45,940 --> 00:38:47,980
Only the individual knows.

522
00:38:47,980 --> 00:38:54,100
And sometimes the individual has to attain something to see its true worth.

523
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:58,500
I certainly don't accept anybody's, how can I put it?

524
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:03,820
Like platitudinous approaches to achievement or attainment.

525
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:04,820
You know why?

526
00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:08,580
We'll occasionally encounter best-selling writers say, oh, it doesn't really mean anything,

527
00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:09,580
really.

528
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:13,060
So this thing you've spent your whole life pursuing doesn't really mean anything.

529
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:15,180
So can we strip it away from you?

530
00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:18,860
Do you want to give back all the money and everything because it doesn't mean anything?

531
00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:20,260
I'm not so sure.

532
00:39:20,260 --> 00:39:25,820
At the same time, that doesn't relieve suffering that perhaps comes with it or this melancholy

533
00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:30,860
or on-weigh that it's not that it doesn't mean anything, certainly it does, but maybe it

534
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:32,660
doesn't mean everything.

535
00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:37,620
So I could see both sides of it.

536
00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:47,420
And I know there are areas in my life where I have to experience adjustments, very serious,

537
00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:54,500
organic adjustments in order to come into something that I might want going back to the portion

538
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:55,900
of the book that you quoted.

539
00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:58,660
So I can see both sides of it.

540
00:39:58,660 --> 00:40:01,500
You know as Gurgief said, every stick has two ends.

541
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:08,260
And so wishing, for example, which I take very seriously, very seriously, a wish is extremely

542
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:12,900
powerful when it intently felt very powerful.

543
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:20,620
I could see that having two ends being prepared and being unprepared for the thing itself.

544
00:40:20,620 --> 00:40:22,860
So be careful.

545
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:28,980
I love that you bring up that idea of calling in fame before you're ready to handle it because

546
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:34,020
that's actually something that I've been thinking about for the last couple years because

547
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:36,780
I have intended to call that in on some level.

548
00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:42,420
I have been told by my spirits, by my divinations, that there is a degree of that that is going

549
00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:48,460
to be available to me in the future, probably if they're correct, a degree that will be surprising

550
00:40:48,460 --> 00:40:49,780
even to me.

551
00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:54,780
And so thinking about that and getting my mind into that like mental practice mode, which

552
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:56,540
I believe is something else that you bring up.

553
00:40:56,540 --> 00:40:59,300
And I can't remember whether it was an esoteric or a daydream believer.

554
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:00,820
Yes, it was daydream believer.

555
00:41:00,820 --> 00:41:06,460
The idea of wishing from a place of passion and from a place of passion that maybe comes

556
00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:10,420
from black because you're sad because you don't have the thing versus needing to put

557
00:41:10,420 --> 00:41:14,900
yourself into the illusion of already having it.

558
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:19,140
And I found in my own personal practice that it's almost a gradient, like I can start from

559
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:23,780
this place, but then maybe I better be at this other, like I can start from this place

560
00:41:23,780 --> 00:41:29,380
of making the wish from the place of black, but I kind of better be in the mental practice

561
00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:32,260
mode of having it by the time it arrives, you know?

562
00:41:32,260 --> 00:41:34,060
Yeah, I did.

563
00:41:34,060 --> 00:41:42,740
I think that part of what I'm driving at in that point is that the individual is going

564
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:51,460
to experience periods of depression or grief or excessive anxiety.

565
00:41:51,460 --> 00:42:00,420
And sometimes when in need of the greatest help, the greatest barriers can also appear.

566
00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:07,420
If we abide by a kind of standard new thought practice of think from the end, live from

567
00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:08,940
the end, which I honor.

568
00:42:08,940 --> 00:42:14,900
I mean, I have Neville Goddard over here, my spiritual hero tattooed on my own.

569
00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:16,940
I love him.

570
00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:19,020
And I believe in Neville's ideas.

571
00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:22,100
He's been one of the greatest influences in my life.

572
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:31,180
But if I could have an exchange with him, my exchange would focus on exactly that, which

573
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:36,900
is that when the individual is in the most acute need, living from the end, enacting the

574
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:40,580
feeling state is, it's next to impossible.

575
00:42:40,580 --> 00:42:43,140
It's next to impossible.

576
00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:51,020
And so I got to wondering whether at the back of all of our, whatever one wants to call

577
00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:57,740
it, manifesting, repatterning, selecting, spell work, whatever one wants to call it, at the

578
00:42:57,740 --> 00:43:00,700
back of all that is the wish.

579
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:06,900
So I began to ask myself, and I think that occupies the first chapter in a Sotarika.

580
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:12,020
And I actually, yeah, it occupies the first chapter following the introduction.

581
00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:17,500
I raised the question of whether the wish is enough, the wish is sufficient.

582
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:25,180
And I'm really interested in that because all of our metaphysical work, whatever it's nature,

583
00:43:25,180 --> 00:43:28,780
whether it be prayer, whether it be spell work, whether it be the power of intent, whatever

584
00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:36,460
it's nature, all of our metaphysical work is psychical enactment is the wish to psychically

585
00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:45,220
push out one's mental picture, one's emotive thought into the world.

586
00:43:45,220 --> 00:43:53,300
And in such cases, especially when a person is suffering is the wish enough, is the well-patterned,

587
00:43:53,300 --> 00:44:02,820
well-formed, passionately felt, very specifically formulated wish is that sufficient.

588
00:44:02,820 --> 00:44:04,860
And I'm, I'm really interested in that.

589
00:44:04,860 --> 00:44:11,940
I feel like logically it almost must be in the sense that if I refer to magic as causative

590
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:15,140
ritual, if magic is real, if magic works.

591
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:22,900
And I believe it does, albeit amid a wild degree of countervailing factors and a complexity

592
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:28,660
of laws and forces, then it could be that the wish is sufficient if our psychies have some

593
00:44:28,660 --> 00:44:32,940
capacity of selection, which I believe they do.

594
00:44:32,940 --> 00:44:38,460
And I'm really interested at this juncture in my search of very, very simple things like

595
00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:41,020
that, very, very simple things.

596
00:44:41,020 --> 00:44:46,820
So people always want to talk to us about the entities they've met and the non-human intelligences

597
00:44:46,820 --> 00:44:53,500
and I met Jehovah or I met this God or I met that God and this happened on this trip.

598
00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:56,140
And we want to talk about these experiences.

599
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:58,580
But am I undergoing that right now?

600
00:44:58,580 --> 00:44:59,900
Am I feeling that right now?

601
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:03,780
And if I'm not feeling that right now, then it's the equivalent of just showing people

602
00:45:03,780 --> 00:45:04,780
my vacation photos.

603
00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:05,780
Yes.

604
00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:14,140
You know, and how much do I really want to look at more pictures of Angkor Wat or of the

605
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:22,140
Parthenon or whatever, showing people my vacation photos is not experiencing that as right

606
00:45:22,140 --> 00:45:23,140
now.

607
00:45:23,140 --> 00:45:28,680
And so rather than collect experiences or necessarily go through the complexities of

608
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,060
liturgy, which is wonderful if it works for the individual.

609
00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:38,860
I'm the first in line to shake hands with that person is the wish sufficient.

610
00:45:38,860 --> 00:45:45,060
So I'm really trying to work with very stripped down ideas at this point in my search.

611
00:45:45,060 --> 00:45:46,060
Yeah.

612
00:45:46,060 --> 00:45:47,060
I would agree with you.

613
00:45:47,060 --> 00:45:51,500
I would say there are times in my practice where I have, it has been from a place of impassion

614
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:57,300
meant rather than mental fulfillment and it's still, it's, it's still gotten me there

615
00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:58,300
eventually.

616
00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:03,020
One of my favorite parts of Esoterika, I'll be at a brief section, but it was definitely

617
00:46:03,020 --> 00:46:09,220
one of my favorites was the part about musicians making a pact at the crossroads with the devil

618
00:46:09,220 --> 00:46:10,940
or skills and music.

619
00:46:10,940 --> 00:46:16,900
And I wanted to share with you that I actually, I did that in 2021, although it was, it was

620
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:21,420
not with the devil as in St. Norlucifer or the poser as we might think or even, you know,

621
00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:24,860
Alegua as in some of the other traditions.

622
00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:26,220
It was hermys.

623
00:46:26,220 --> 00:46:32,860
It was and hermys specifically showed up because I had put out a video on YouTube in spring

624
00:46:32,860 --> 00:46:38,180
of 2021 and I basically just said, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I'm going to

625
00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:43,020
commit to using magic to make it music and I don't know, you know, I don't know what that's

626
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:47,100
going to look like, but I'm just stating my intention and all of a sudden, all of these

627
00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:51,100
crazy synchronicities deal with the devil, what I start showing up in my life.

628
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:53,420
And I'm like, okay, well, who is this?

629
00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:55,940
Who's, you know, and I managed to figure it out.

630
00:46:55,940 --> 00:47:00,860
Actually, I did a series of videos about this process of figuring out all the way up

631
00:47:00,860 --> 00:47:04,140
into crafting the pact and, you know, going to the crossroads.

632
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:07,780
So I documented, you know, what was showing up for me and figured out, you know, oh, this

633
00:47:07,780 --> 00:47:12,980
is hermys who is showing up, which felt a lot better to me than doing like a St. Norlucifer.

634
00:47:12,980 --> 00:47:14,460
I know that you are a St. Nist.

635
00:47:14,460 --> 00:47:19,500
I passed no judgment, but I know for me, hermys was a much more comfortable figure.

636
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:21,860
And you asked the question in the book, does it work?

637
00:47:21,860 --> 00:47:26,420
And I certainly don't yet have the physical fruits to prove it yet.

638
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:29,100
And it has, you know, been an amount of time.

639
00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:34,580
But I also, I was not asking for skills and music, what I was asking for was the best possible

640
00:47:34,580 --> 00:47:40,500
record deal for this album that I made that was a hyper sigil of the twin plane path.

641
00:47:40,500 --> 00:47:44,540
And of course, the steps that had to happen were like, okay, well, if we need you to do that,

642
00:47:44,540 --> 00:47:47,820
we actually need you to make an entire new album because that needs to be a stepping.

643
00:47:47,820 --> 00:47:49,700
So you're not going to get a great deal.

644
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:51,140
You haven't put out anything in years.

645
00:47:51,140 --> 00:47:53,340
So like, you're not someone, no one's going to just hand you that.

646
00:47:53,340 --> 00:47:55,420
So there are a number of things that need to happen.

647
00:47:55,420 --> 00:48:00,060
And the things that started showing up, which I have not yet been public about because, like

648
00:48:00,060 --> 00:48:03,900
you, I also believe, like let's keep our mat, you know, to a degree anyway.

649
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:08,980
Let's keep our manifestations, you know, sacred and secret until those trees bear fruit.

650
00:48:08,980 --> 00:48:12,340
But the things that showed up, which I would be happy to tell you in private, if you're ever

651
00:48:12,340 --> 00:48:13,340
curious.

652
00:48:13,340 --> 00:48:20,060
And the stepping stones along the way have just been the wildest and craziest journey.

653
00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:24,900
So I wanted to share that with you before we wrap up the conversation because my experience

654
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:27,060
is yes, it does work.

655
00:48:27,060 --> 00:48:31,340
And your other question about when you said, not question, but your supposition where you

656
00:48:31,340 --> 00:48:37,940
said, it could be that deity does not afford you favors, but grants you the strength to

657
00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:38,940
attain favors.

658
00:48:38,940 --> 00:48:43,900
And I would say yes, both of those are true because I know for me, one of the first thing

659
00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:47,460
Hermes did was like, okay, you need to do a lot more magic than you're doing because I

660
00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:49,500
can't just do everything over here.

661
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:52,660
I will tell you what magic to cast, but you need to do that.

662
00:48:52,660 --> 00:48:56,700
You need to set those intentions, do those rituals so that all these things can come to

663
00:48:56,700 --> 00:48:57,700
be.

664
00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:01,260
And I went from doing maybe, you know, a spell every couple months when I really needed

665
00:49:01,260 --> 00:49:05,940
something big to doing literally like 10 to 20 per week.

666
00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:08,620
And I become so feral.

667
00:49:08,620 --> 00:49:11,260
It's that, oh, did I sell my soul to the devil?

668
00:49:11,260 --> 00:49:15,540
No, but in some ways, I really did sign up to be transformed.

669
00:49:15,540 --> 00:49:20,060
So that was, that was a remarkable experience that I'll, I'm happy to share more with you

670
00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:21,300
if you're ever curious.

671
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:22,900
I appreciate it.

672
00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:27,100
I think that level of intensity and dedication is so important.

673
00:49:27,100 --> 00:49:31,740
And I think throwing oneself into the deep end of the pool is very important.

674
00:49:31,740 --> 00:49:38,060
Life avails nothing towards those of us who engage in halfway measures.

675
00:49:38,060 --> 00:49:43,580
A book of Revelation says, if you are Luke Warmer, I will spit thee out of my mouth.

676
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:46,100
And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

677
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:53,580
I think that life responds to no half way measures, life responds to absolute passion.

678
00:49:53,580 --> 00:49:58,580
And I suppose for people, there's a question of risk.

679
00:49:58,580 --> 00:50:00,540
There's the what if risk.

680
00:50:00,540 --> 00:50:05,420
I think we have a very limited time within this form of life that we know.

681
00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:08,540
I don't know what the invisible world is.

682
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:17,940
We experience the invisible world through mediation, metaphor, points of reference, consensus,

683
00:50:17,940 --> 00:50:22,900
traditions, which are very often a lot more modern than we believe they are.

684
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:26,260
Show me a traditionalist and I'll show you an unconscious modernist.

685
00:50:26,260 --> 00:50:33,300
You know, our range and traditions are very often remade, re-adapted, rendered into novelty,

686
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:38,740
including some of the most hallowed ones that we think extend back to deepest antiquity.

687
00:50:38,740 --> 00:50:48,020
Very little that we possess has any really primeval consistency or antiquity or lineage.

688
00:50:48,020 --> 00:50:54,940
So we're in a position of peaking through a keyhole on our knees.

689
00:50:54,940 --> 00:51:03,580
And I personally opted a long time ago to favor risk.

690
00:51:03,580 --> 00:51:05,380
That's my approach.

691
00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:11,260
If that's not somebody's approach, they probably won't like my books very much.

692
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:20,500
But I also favor that risk with a very deep wish and a need to honor the sanctity and sovereignty

693
00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:21,580
of another person.

694
00:51:21,580 --> 00:51:30,420
My ethic on the path is, is I would never do anything knowingly to disrupt the same reach

695
00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:36,220
or potential in another person that I want in myself.

696
00:51:36,220 --> 00:51:42,940
And in a certain sense, the whole subpoint of Esoterika is moving through life in a way

697
00:51:42,940 --> 00:51:50,140
that's non-violative, not accepting, violent behavior unto yourself, trying your very,

698
00:51:50,140 --> 00:51:56,220
very best to the extent that we can be aware, not to engage in violent behavior towards others,

699
00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:59,980
which is damn near impossible in our world because we're all in debt.

700
00:51:59,980 --> 00:52:04,860
I mean, look, the very devices that we're speaking to one another on have lithium batteries,

701
00:52:04,860 --> 00:52:07,300
which are not particularly good for the earth.

702
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:11,140
And eventually these devices are going to wind up in landfill in the backyard of some

703
00:52:11,140 --> 00:52:14,020
poor kid in the Philippines or something.

704
00:52:14,020 --> 00:52:17,700
And this is reality that we turn from constantly.

705
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:25,380
So I'm not really into declarations of purity in the sense that we are all engaged in

706
00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:32,260
cycles of taking that we are completely unaware of and most of the time, frankly, very

707
00:52:32,260 --> 00:52:38,300
uninterested in, but the degree to which we can practice awareness let it be non-violent.

708
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:39,300
Yeah.

709
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:40,300
Wow.

710
00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:45,540
That revelations quote, "If you are lukewarm, I will spitty from my mouth."

711
00:52:45,540 --> 00:52:46,540
Was that it?

712
00:52:46,540 --> 00:52:47,540
Yeah.

713
00:52:47,540 --> 00:52:54,780
If I had a dating profile, you can use it.

714
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:59,940
If I had, if I used dating profiles instead of, you know, lover drawing magic, I would.

715
00:52:59,940 --> 00:53:00,940
Yeah.

716
00:53:00,940 --> 00:53:07,220
Well, I want to bring on Tomi to ask her question as we wrap up the end of the episode.

717
00:53:07,220 --> 00:53:09,540
Tomi, I know you have a great question for Mitch today.

718
00:53:09,540 --> 00:53:10,540
Good Tomi.

719
00:53:10,540 --> 00:53:11,540
Yeah.

720
00:53:11,540 --> 00:53:12,540
Hello.

721
00:53:12,540 --> 00:53:13,540
Thank you, Arden.

722
00:53:13,540 --> 00:53:14,540
Thank you, Mitch.

723
00:53:14,540 --> 00:53:17,100
So today's question actually comes from "Front of the Show Drew Smith."

724
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:22,140
And he asks about your interview with David Lynch from years ago where you had said that

725
00:53:22,140 --> 00:53:28,500
his cowboy scene from the whole drive contained within it an entire philosophy of life so much

726
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:33,500
so that if we were on an alien planet and this is all we had, we would be okay.

727
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,260
We could figure it out just from that alone.

728
00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:42,420
So in a similar vein, if you could ensure that just one book, one article, or one talk

729
00:53:42,420 --> 00:53:47,780
you've given would survive to the next generations of seekers, after ours, which one would you

730
00:53:47,780 --> 00:53:49,100
choose?

731
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:54,220
I would choose the principal, Tomi and Drew, whose name I recognize and I appreciate

732
00:53:54,220 --> 00:53:55,700
the question.

733
00:53:55,700 --> 00:54:00,300
I would choose the principal if people were to take one thing away from my work and one

734
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:07,420
thing only get away from cruel people, get away from cruel people.

735
00:54:07,420 --> 00:54:17,420
We underestimate the extent to which abiding cruelty just degrades our lives and selves

736
00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:20,660
and it's unnecessary.

737
00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:26,660
I really do believe in my heart of hearts that if one thing were taken from my work, let

738
00:54:26,660 --> 00:54:28,660
it be that.

739
00:54:28,660 --> 00:54:35,980
I will keep talks from time to time on practical magic or magic for non-believers, which

740
00:54:35,980 --> 00:54:41,300
I might do if I'm at a tech conference or something like that.

741
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:46,220
The thing that I come to again and again is that all the spell work in the world, all the

742
00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:52,740
petitioner prayer in the world, all the self-developmental efforts in the world, valuable

743
00:54:52,740 --> 00:54:55,380
as those things are.

744
00:54:55,380 --> 00:55:04,220
I believe from experience will not sum up in value the greatness that the individual will

745
00:55:04,220 --> 00:55:13,060
experience when removing him or herself from this smog of cruelty.

746
00:55:13,060 --> 00:55:14,300
And I trust the individual.

747
00:55:14,300 --> 00:55:21,660
I really, really trust the individual, including adolescents, to render that decision for themselves.

748
00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:22,780
I think we know.

749
00:55:22,780 --> 00:55:27,380
I think the mature seeking sensitive person knows just like when you put something in

750
00:55:27,380 --> 00:55:32,060
your mouth and it's rancid and you say to yourself, this is not good and yet somehow pure

751
00:55:32,060 --> 00:55:38,900
pressure in very, very forms impels us to swallow that and then swallow it again.

752
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:40,420
Come on, be a good sport.

753
00:55:40,420 --> 00:55:41,420
You're being too sensitive.

754
00:55:41,420 --> 00:55:42,420
I was only joking.

755
00:55:42,420 --> 00:55:47,180
You know, get away from cruel people and you will blossom.

756
00:55:47,180 --> 00:55:48,620
That would be the one thing.

757
00:55:48,620 --> 00:55:52,980
Does that advice extend to identifying the cruelty within ourselves?

758
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:58,780
What insight could you share for people trying to not just separate cruel people from themselves,

759
00:55:58,780 --> 00:56:03,580
but also identify where they are cruel and apply that question?

760
00:56:03,580 --> 00:56:04,620
I wonder that question.

761
00:56:04,620 --> 00:56:08,780
That's a very, very, very legit question and framing.

762
00:56:08,780 --> 00:56:13,420
But I limit myself for this reason only, for this reason only, not because I want to

763
00:56:13,420 --> 00:56:18,060
revert or sidestep the very, very sound and good point you just made.

764
00:56:18,060 --> 00:56:20,900
And I have been cruel to people, not meaning to be.

765
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:23,780
I have hurt people, not meaning to.

766
00:56:23,780 --> 00:56:24,980
But I'm going to limit myself.

767
00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:31,140
I'm going to limit myself only because I don't think we as individuals can grow and begin

768
00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:38,660
that valuable process that you just described until we remove ourselves from proximity of

769
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:42,300
cruelty, even if that means being alone, for example.

770
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:46,660
And as I said earlier, I think, aloneness, it's a bad rap.

771
00:56:46,660 --> 00:56:52,780
And I think all things become possible, including the very, very keen and sound thing you were

772
00:56:52,780 --> 00:57:00,740
just driving at when the individual gets to a place where he or she feels at home in their

773
00:57:00,740 --> 00:57:02,060
skin.

774
00:57:02,060 --> 00:57:10,460
And that can't happen if we're in environments of cruelty, broadly defined.

775
00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:11,460
Thank you.

776
00:57:11,460 --> 00:57:15,140
I appreciate the answer and I know Drew will be looking forward to this.

777
00:57:15,140 --> 00:57:16,140
Thank you.

778
00:57:16,140 --> 00:57:18,860
I especially appreciate it a lot too.

779
00:57:18,860 --> 00:57:20,900
Thank you so much for being on the show today, Mitch.

780
00:57:20,900 --> 00:57:23,740
I am so delighted and honored to have you here.

781
00:57:23,740 --> 00:57:25,300
It's been such a pleasure chatting with you.

782
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:31,020
I also want to tell folks that if you enjoyed this episode, and if you also enjoyed last season's

783
00:57:31,020 --> 00:57:38,740
episode with Douglas Rushkopf, you can also listen to Mitch's most recent episode on Doug's

784
00:57:38,740 --> 00:57:40,700
show, Team Human, which was great.

785
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:45,420
And I was so honored because you guys spent a bunch of time talking about me and I was so happy

786
00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:46,420
about that.

787
00:57:46,420 --> 00:57:48,660
So everyone, you can watch that one too.

788
00:57:48,660 --> 00:57:49,860
It was terrific.

789
00:57:49,860 --> 00:57:54,540
And also, Mitch, you have a substack that people can find and can subscribe to your writing

790
00:57:54,540 --> 00:57:55,540
there.

791
00:57:55,540 --> 00:57:56,820
You are incredibly prolific.

792
00:57:56,820 --> 00:57:59,700
I also follow you on Instagram.

793
00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:03,460
And as we've talked about, you have literally 20 bucks.

794
00:58:03,460 --> 00:58:09,860
So I encourage everyone out there to check out DaydreamBeliever, check out the new book,

795
00:58:09,860 --> 00:58:12,900
Esoterika, Formula's Against the Fall Self.

796
00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:15,940
Where else, Mitch, can folks find you or what else would you like to leave them with?

797
00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:20,420
Well, I'm on Instagram at Mitch Harrow, it's 23.

798
00:58:20,420 --> 00:58:26,700
For those of you who live in or around New York City, we'll be doing a launch event for Esoterika

799
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:35,420
on June 21st, which is some resulstus at a performance space called TVI here in New York.

800
00:58:35,420 --> 00:58:39,700
You can find the links and so on on my social media.

801
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:42,140
John Newsom, the artist who did the cover, will be there.

802
00:58:42,140 --> 00:58:45,900
He'll be displaying his original and quite enormous pencil drawing.

803
00:58:45,900 --> 00:58:52,020
Of the cover image, which we'll talk about among other things.

804
00:58:52,020 --> 00:58:55,740
Substack, my newsletter is Mystery Achievement.

805
00:58:55,740 --> 00:59:00,420
Lots of practical stuff there, lots of historical stuff.

806
00:59:00,420 --> 00:59:03,780
And I'm always happy to hear from people.

807
00:59:03,780 --> 00:59:11,260
You can find me also on Twitter at Mitch Harrow, it's the book Esoterika is out in audio as

808
00:59:11,260 --> 00:59:12,260
well.

809
00:59:12,260 --> 00:59:15,460
And I do the narration if that's somebody's preference.

810
00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:18,540
Thank you again so much for being here with us today, Mitch.

811
00:59:18,540 --> 00:59:19,540
Thank you guys.

812
00:59:19,540 --> 00:59:23,620
Check out Mitch's work, check out if you enjoy these discussions, if you want to dive even deeper

813
00:59:23,620 --> 00:59:28,580
into the Re-Patterning ideas we're talking about, you can check out therepatterningproject.com.

814
00:59:28,580 --> 00:59:33,460
We run courses twice a year and you can also check out the self-study course, which is available

815
00:59:33,460 --> 00:59:35,300
for download at any time.

816
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:39,740
And also if you enjoy the podcast and you want to support us on Patreon, it is only $5

817
00:59:39,740 --> 00:59:43,420
a month and it gives you access to our private discord channel.

818
00:59:43,420 --> 00:59:47,580
You can go to patreon.com/therepatterningpodcasts.

819
00:59:47,580 --> 00:59:51,900
So be sure to check all of those out and thank you guys for joining us.

820
00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:53,540
And we'll see you next time.

821
00:59:53,540 --> 00:59:58,540
And in the meantime, go forth, repattern, and as Mitch says, try.

822
00:59:58,540 --> 01:00:03,060
We'll see you next time.

823
01:00:03,060 --> 01:00:05,540
Thank you for listening to the repatting podcast.

824
01:00:05,540 --> 01:00:09,620
If you're curious about the repatting project, the eight week course in mental mastery and

825
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:13,380
creative freedom that inspires these conversations, you can check out more details.

826
01:00:13,380 --> 01:00:20,140
We run a cohort twice a year or you can download the self-study version of the course and get

827
01:00:20,140 --> 01:00:21,740
started today.

828
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:26,460
We also offer a four week course on narrative magic and archetype titled "Mitzen Magic,

829
01:00:26,460 --> 01:00:29,460
Changing Your Life Through Story" also twice a year.

830
01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:33,980
If you'd like to join our community, the repatting parlour on discord, you can sign up for

831
01:00:33,980 --> 01:00:38,540
$5 a month at patreon.com/therepattingpodcast.

832
01:00:38,540 --> 01:00:42,020
Thanks to everyone who makes the repatting podcast possible.

833
01:00:42,020 --> 01:00:46,100
But firstly, our award-winning producer, Tomi Trembath, of the key master collective

834
01:00:46,100 --> 01:00:47,740
network of podcasts.

835
01:00:47,740 --> 01:00:53,100
She also produces transcending comics, vision in the void, and giant-sized violence.

836
01:00:53,100 --> 01:00:58,540
Thanks also to animation studio Mortis and Madriacs, who created the video for our introduction,

837
01:00:58,540 --> 01:01:02,580
as well as to Andrew Meens, who composed and produced our theme music.

838
01:01:02,580 --> 01:01:06,540
And also thanks to Al Alvarez, who took the photos of yours truly that you see on the cover

839
01:01:06,540 --> 01:01:09,420
of each episode if you're watching the video version.

840
01:01:09,420 --> 01:01:13,780
And finally, thanks to you, our listeners, who give meaning to this work.

841
01:01:13,780 --> 01:01:17,780
Our greatest wish is that whatever you've heard today inspires you to live freely and

842
01:01:17,780 --> 01:01:20,980
begin creating your reality from the inside out.

843
01:01:20,980 --> 01:01:22,780
Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you again soon.

844
01:01:22,780 --> 01:01:30,220
[MUSIC]