Yeah, hello everybody, and welcome back to EM 365 and podcast.
Today's guest is someone who has spent more than 15 years helping organization turn ambitious data strategies into measurable business outcomes.
He is the five time Microsoft MVP founder of Onik State, a creator of the top tap ops governance platform for technology council member,
Oxford site, AI, Aluminum, Alpha, international speaker, and one of the leading voices on Microsoft fabric governance and enterprise AI adoption rather focused on AI demos that never leave the lab.
His work focused on the what happened after the excitement being organizations moved from pilots to production through governance, Microsoft fabric, Microsoft P.O.
is the Monday modeling and measured Roy. He is the creator of the concept, no, as the pilot text highlighting why so many AI initiatives fail before they ever deliver real business value.
Leon, it's a pleasure to have you on the EM 365 podcast. Will I come to the show?
Oh, fantastic, Mercco. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. And that introduction has just reminded me how, how much help is the I am?
Yeah, I don't hold, I don't think we've got. No, not at all. Thank you for going through that. What a mouthful to try and get through. So thank you.
They are for I don't think it's not so much people much for listening to you for the first time. Who is Leon Gordon?
So I mean, just to give you some context and I guess about me, so I own and operate a Microsoft fabric consultancy called on X data, whereby we have a team of Microsoft MVPs that really support organizations to implement fabric, but also to give that governed environment for them to go and then adopt a value from
the technologies in the artificial intelligence realm on top of that specifically focused on Microsoft technologies, but we're also a data bricks and snowflake partner as well.
I guess the question was more who who is Leon Gordon. So if I give you a bit about my history, it might form a little bit about who I am today. So something that people tend to find quite interesting is that I didn't go to traditional route into
analytics or into artificial intelligence. I actually left school at the GCSE level in United Kingdom to go straight into a football scholarship, which led to me being a footballer until I was around about 18 or 19, which means I didn't go to traditional university route as much of my peers and colleagues.
So what that meant is that I ended up starting from what I would call fairly close to the bottom of the engineering or data analytics stack really doing data entry and then working my way up through Microsoft technologies, starting with T SQL, SAS, so that's analysis services SSIS, which is integration services SSRS reporting services before landing in power be I and then going on to machine learning and artificial implementation.
So very much on the job experience and being self taught throughout my whole career, and then I've gone on to utilize this to build communities of like minded people and to give those people the opportunities that I didn't have as well coming through the industry.
Was there one project that completely changed your change how you think about enterprise data?
Yeah, absolutely. So I had the joy of delivering a Microsoft customer success story. So Microsoft deemed this project that we delivered to be good enough to actually be demonstrated by them as a customer success story and also featured at both build and ignite that year as well.
It was not only a proud moment for me, but we also delivered this as one of the first and largest implementations of fabric in the UAE, so United Arab Emirates and also utilizing space X data as part of that implementation alongside an organization called Elkham and a friend and colleague Jimmy Grew
and they had a managing director who we were able to work alongside with that project. That was very much a real time intelligence project delivered with a very small team of developers and also delivered fully remotely as well.
So with those constraints and variables, it's very much a proud moment for me and Merco as I'm sure you can imagine with that type of development environment with that newer technology as well.
There were lots of experiences and obstacles to overcome as part of that delivery.
Yeah, that's, yeah, the space X all of the interesting. Yeah, you often say something like enterprise AI is where ambitious go to die. What did you mean by that?
So I think especially over the course of the last couple of years with the gen AI kind of I don't know if you can wrap gen AI up in whatever you want to call it the boom, the bubble, the hype.
However, you want to kind of wrap it up.
So lots of organizations have gen AI ambition, but lots of them are also just tick-bock exercises where approve of concept or proof of value never actually leaves the sandbox and just ends up cause costing a lot of money without actually delivering any any value.
while just noting that we've seen a plethora of what I would call traditional artificial intelligence
implementation so the more traditional machine learning implementations that have have gone onto
the liver, high value and a pretty much very war battle tested in today's day and age. What i'm
specifically referring to here is more the gen AI technologies. Now the reason that I've filled
this way about it is it's not just myself, I believe MIT did a study in 2025 that suggested
that only 1% of gen AI implementations actually go onto to hit production. Now there's many reasons
for this. The vast majority of it comes down to actually not leading with value first, understanding
what the return investment is and what the outcome you're trying to deliver is and secondly,
how you're doing that in a governed and fit for a gen TKI environment. So is your data up to
scratch and I'll leave that very, very vague and very broad but that's a good way to at least get
started on what I mean there. I think a lot of companies struggle with this but there's one
part there and they struggle because it's yeah it's cost-intensive but others investing millions.
Why did they struggle if they put so many money in it? Multiple reasons I think we've had some
famous stories. McDonald's is probably one of the largest, at least, social media perspective that
comes to mind whereby they trialed and generative AI on their drive-through, take out kind of checkpoints
and people were able to spoof these agents into being able to order thousands of nuggets for example
and similar scenarios have been utilized on large organizations again their company or their
public facing website chatbots where people have been able to utilize them for for free inference
shall we say and being able to use their chatbots as large language models for all intents and
purposes. Now at least those public facing stories come back to one point which is governance,
quality acceptance testing and ensuring that the tool is for purpose against all edge cases
but typically this comes back to that rush for implementation. The rush to try to deliver that
gen AI tick box for boards etc rather than actually stopping to think why do we need this? Do we have
the infrastructure and platform to be able to support this and what does this look like in three,
six, twelve months time as the technology continues to evolve as well? And how figured your pilot
tax concept in this? Oh absolutely. I mean we believe in doing or at least starting with proof of
values and these are fairly small to medium sized projects which set out to prove the
the kind of the thinking behind is in the title right they're set out to prove value okay so taking
a business use case identifying key strategic areas and business metrics that we can prove value
against, costing that out again looking at all edge cases etc and then proving this out in a small
to medium size before then being able to go ahead and forecast scale for the business
once you go ahead and productionize that. Now the reason that we put together this framework
and methodology is because so many organizations again referring to the MIT stat earlier
so many organizations, 99% of organizations in the last 24 months of so have not being able to
get out of that proof of concept or pilot environment and that's exactly the framework that we've
been able to use to overcome that. Did you see warning things that then AI initiative is failing?
Yeah absolutely so I guess with that it's lack of trust by the business as well is it plays a
big part in it? How can we ensure that what we're being told is accurate there won't be any hallucinations
at all and to be honest we've actually put together an anti hallucination framework to circumnappigate
this as well to actually give organizations that trust in the information that they're being told
by the large language model is being accurate and then making this very verifiable all the way down
to that minute row of data in your lake house or data warehouse environment as well so these are
some of the areas that we've been able to highlight that really stop organizations being able to
productionize that value and there's lots of other areas again and strategically we've been able
to reverse engineer this and be able to lead with a framework that actually enables organizations
to be able to take small steps in a quick period of time to showcase value against needed
business use cases and then be able to have a proven route to production governed and secure
GNI in their environment on their data hallucination free. It's technology usually a problem or
something else and really no combination and so generally some of it's down to culture and technology
lots of organizations to be blunt don't have this capability internally which is why they look to
a third party like ourselves to be able to come in not only just implement this technology but to
also to take their team on this journey so on its data we actually have something called the onix
Academy where by our clients teams are trained on these technologies up skill to be able to then be
a center of excellence internally and to go on and be champions of these technologies and be
able to go and train others internally as well and that's something that we're quite proud of.
Outside of that we've seen organizations rush towards data maturity for anybody that's been
involved in the data space, data quality, data governance etc have all been very tiring conversations
in hard-worn battles with boards and heads of over the past few years. Now it's one of the first
items on any agenda for these types of implementation so that just shows you where data culture is gone
or is led to at least within the last five years or so and you're also really famous for all your
Microsoft fabric topic. Why has Microsoft fabric become such an important platform?
What a platform to begin with, what a concept so could us to Saty and Adela and the whole team
involved in Microsoft fabric as a platform first and foremost and let's be brutally honest it's
not without scrutiny as any new bleeding edge technology and forward-thinking concept that we're
not going to get everything right day day zero but it's an ongoing journey. Now the great point about
Microsoft fabric for organizations, well there's a couple of great points actually so let me expand
on this a little bit. The first great point is it's a single unified solution of what was previously
disparate technology so you're now bringing your pipelines, your notebooks, your data science, your
visualization, your semantic modeling, etc. Now your agentech framework, real-time intelligence
and even now application development with fabric apps and rafin all together into a single
environment with one single line item for your IT team and your infrastructure team on your monthly
bill which is a huge a huge win. There's not only cuts down on complexity in being able to spin up
these environments and time to make all of these different components talk to each other and
but also simplifies billing. Now what that also brings to the forefront typically in a data and
artificial intelligence engineering environment you have people that have varied skill sets
so one way to look at this previously was the t-SQL developer, the Python developer and a data scientist
okay each of those potentially using different languages or different scripts so the t-SQL
developer is using t-SQL, the Python developer is using Python and a data scientist potentially
using r or Python as well then you have the citizen developer who typically is an O-code more low-code
developer. Now what fabric really did fantastically well is introduce the parquet file format and one
lake which is really enabled each of these different personas to be able to come to the same table as
I like to call it and all be able to share the data regardless of what play or cutlery of choice
that they would like to use and that is a fantastic unlock shall we say across various skill sets
within an enterprise organization. Yeah what I've found really interesting is that's the fabric
apps because a lot of people say okay excellent because now we have far more BI and now a lot of
people say power BI of that because we have fabric apps what is this fabric apps and villains
to really kill power BI and X. Who knows is probably the easiest way to look at it but let's look at
what it actually enables as opposed to potentially looking at what the what the future looks like so
the fabric apps and the rafian technologies as support it pretty much brings the application layer
into into fabric so typically when you had your app devs your web devs etc they'd be using as your
technologies. Now they're able to do this given there are a couple of limitations the fact that
it is to improve you we won't go into those but there's plenty of documentation available on what
they are but the goal here is to bring the application layer into fabric and importantly be able
to interact with the rest of the fabric environment so your semantic models for example be able to
be able to process thanks queries etc etc. Now launch members of the data analyst and visualization
community as you mentioned Merco have absolutely looked at this from a power BI perspective how can
we spin up web based apps now and represent data visualizations that enable us to do everything that
we couldn't do previously with the ceiling of power BI and J Park the fellow MVP probably comes
to mind as one of the leaders at the forefront of this AI driven fabric apps implementation
deployment. Now for me personally just to get on to will this remove power BI in the future I will
double down on the fact that who knows potentially potentially not. Now for me one area where I'm
absolutely certain where it won't be removed which is a power BI object or at least it was
natively is the semantic layer the semantic model the tabular engine underneath power BI
that just becomes a more important component and I mentioned this on another panel session very
recently that the semantic model was finally becoming the promo queen shall we say
prom evening and I can only see that getting more integrated as we move forward.
So it's a little bit a mix of of platforms like either power, power apps and tabular edit
runs or how it would. Yeah so I think it's a combination right so if you think down to if you were
a software engineer and you were building applications directly with your technology no JS
react typescript etc Python so on and so forth everything that you've been able to do
previously in those environments you're now able to do directly within fabric so you're absolutely
right this can become a replacement for the likes of power apps for example and it really opens the
lid on the capabilities of what you're able to now do within within fabric it's a huge
walking to a new generation of capabilities not just for data analysts and engineers but also for
software engineers now. Awesome yeah I have to I have to look a little bit more in there.
Did you think or did you see misconceptions organization have what when they look at fabric
or did you something see off? Yeah absolutely so fabric as I've mentioned and pretty much wax
lyrically about a little bit is a fantastic platform it's especially a fantastic platform for
Microsoft native enterprises as well. Now where that we have seen reservations is against let's say
more mature offerings in the market and more cemented offerings in the market the likes of
Databricks and snowflake that have had readily available platforms for a lot longer in regards to time.
Now we have to remember that fabric it's not just the bringing together of components these are
already mature components from an Azure infrastructure perspective they're now being made
available in a single package that can be utilized across the organization so with that comes
some teaving issues and Microsoft have acted really quickly and for those that that where they have been
but this is very much a journey of hardening of a platform that has seen fantastic enhancements
over the course of the last couple of years and as we've seen in recent partner reports etc
has become an industry leader in a very short space of time. Yeah I think a lot of companies have
spent a lot a lot of money for for building their traditional data platforms I don't know
in SQL or something when should companies think about fabric is the right solution for them?
I think whenever you're trialing out a new proof of concept there's probably a good way to look at it
so the the ease of fabric is how easy is to get started with you're able to go ahead
sign in spin up a capacity sizing so let's just say a capacity for those that don't know is the
compute made available for you and this is sized up accordingly in different tiers okay so with
that in mind you can go ahead to to the fabric you can sign in and you can spin up a capacity as low
as an F2 to begin with okay so for a moderately small charge you then have access to all of those
components that I've previously mentioned okay so this means even if you have some small excel
workloads and processes if you have a report that's a legacy report let's say something like crystal
reporting for example or or SAP some legacy SAP objects as well this is a great time to go through
that proof of value okay see where you can have efficiencies typically in the processing of the data
and also being able to make this available from a single point of truth to other areas of the
organization as well so that would be my recommendation if it's something that you're going on a
journey of increasing the size of data in your organization then start small see where fabric
is efficient and and drives value and see where it might not fit your current work processes and then
take an educated step forward based on the outputs of that now if you are already a fully fledged
organization and you're using another cloud provider let's just insert any cloud providers names
there then one of the fantastic areas of fabric is how well they play with other cloud providers now
whether this is the utilization of a technology called mirroring or utilizing shortcuts which enables
you to effectively create a virtual desktop shortcut to another cloud provider and utilize that
data within your fabric environment it's a great opportunity to be able to utilize fabric for
some of those workloads where you wouldn't have previously bought it possible and then bring it into
a native environment where everybody in your organization regardless of their technical ability
can go and start to utilize and drive value with data and artificial intelligence.
When we talk about fabric we most talk about yeah I say the technology
stuff but is it also bring an organizational change?
Yeah I believe so I think that at least in my conversations with lots of enterprise
organizations they're now interested in the ability to do cross-domain charging for example so
historically lots of organizations have had warehouses or lake houses where they haven't been
able to do the traditional finops and split out the charging of the compute etc for various
departments now these capabilities become available within fabric where you can start to have
different domains you can have your marketing domain you could have your finance domain your sales
etc and they can all get charge back which brings a different area or a different concept to
organizations in the fact that sometimes it actually increases what they're able to do because each
of those domains has their own budget set aside for data initiatives and artificial intelligence
initiatives and they can kind of virtually pull this together to bring their environment forward
and Merca we also released a tool called FabOps which does this at scale so it's a governance
and always on kind of command center or lighthouse overview of your whole fabric estate regardless
of how many capacities you have which further enhance the ability to be able to become really
data driven and not have to rely so much on your security and governance teams
yeah I like to talk about governance but one question before a lot of companies say okay
last year's we will become data driven and yeah start was fabric and now the company say we are
we will be AI driven companies what what role does fabric play in in an AI first world
oh you just hit it there on the head and you've taken the words out of my mouth really fabric
in my opinion is becoming an AI first platform Microsoft has done a fantastic job
making data agents available the integration of co-pilot MCP servers increasing the API
and the rest API access across fabric as well the command line tools are amazing as well I would say
Microsoft are doing a great job of preparing fabric to become a leading AI native platform if
it isn't one already just back to your former point as well you're absolutely right lots of
organizations discuss being data driven they discuss being AI driven I still see organizations
I still speak with organizations across the globe in today's day and age they don't have a data
strategy let alone an artificial intelligence strategy as well so there are steps to be taken to
be able to successfully implement these technologies and they're proven paths we just don't see a lot
of organizations either A being aware of those paths or B having the time to actually go and explore
those paths down to down to board pressures etc or they are aware of them but they just can't act
quickly enough as quickly as the technology is in improving this awesome I think
what one topic or my personal problems when I work with companies and we work with fabric is
that the companies often overlink the metadata topic why is it so important topic and
what role do is Microsoft PueView play here and sorry can you just repeat the first bit which topic
in particular yeah I see a lot of companies struggle with their metadata or they don't have metadata
why is this so often overlooked and how can Microsoft PueView help here yeah absolutely so great
question so organizations really don't understand and whether this is from a culture perspective
what metadata means across an organization and how to be able to utilize it okay it's a fairly
new concept especially as organization step into this data and AI world that I kind of call
the era of intelligence okay now with that in mind again you didn't have to become very strategic
in regards to how you not only catalog the metadata but you also ensure that it's regularly updated
you have a steward and it looks after that and then you make this available sometimes just a
just a small audience is within an organization but you ensure that those audiences that need access
to this data to this metadata have access to it now you're absolutely right Microsoft introduced
PueView and specifically for this reason and it's a fantastic tool and to be able to go and take all
of your metadata and master data management quality and governance and wrap it up again into a
single layer which really plays well with other tools in the Microsoft ecosystem like fabric now what
we do tend to find is that some organizations aren't quite ready for the scale are the tool like
like PueView and this is where something I mentioned before something like fab ops steps in as being
that all encompassing data quality and governance tool that helps organizations at that more
small to medium layer be able to still get the benefits of becoming metadata driven tracking data
lineage across your organization so understanding where that data metric or data point in your report
actually tracks back to in your source system and the calculations that are taking part
and also being able to track any changes to that underlying data as well and something that's
become even more prevalent in the last few years as well is how do you actually track who has
access to that data is the access to that data correct and when did that change?
I think another important topic is the the semantic models especially
yeah in data for data projects how the enterprises profit when they will start with a high when
they have good semantic models? Oh it's absolutely as I mentioned earlier it's becoming
probably in my opinion one of the highest priority objects within your data environment to
ensure that you have correct okay now to think about this this is where you hold all of your let's
just talk about traditional kimbal methodology this is where you hold your traditional star schema
so your fact tables your dimension tables and but also most importantly your metrics or your measures
and any context around this so this becomes the feeding ground for your for your
agentech agents to be able to understand your business logic and your data relationships semantic
model the context or descriptions that you provide alongside that data and also be able to
utilize those calculations as well now it's worthwhile noting the Microsoft have also recently
gone into GA with fabric ontologies and fabric IQ as well which also helps support this narrative
as well when sometimes don't always have to rely on your semantic layer as well so now within fabric
you have many roots to actually being able to achieve this intelligence layer for your agents to
work on top of? Yeah well what I also often see is when I work with companies especially in the
in the data field they they really like to have fast the first report in power BI so that's the
goal and if I talk about governance it's often we fix that later but you think that's works?
Never it never works and so at least in the approach that we take with organizations
it's about how you deliver that value quickly and we've had luck I mentioned generally our proof
of value approach is anything as small as four to twelve weeks to actually having governed
the genetic AI reporting directly on a client's data anti hallucination free and correct within
one percent of tolerance as well now how do you do that with the constraints that you've just
mentioned? Okay organizations want to see that end product quickly and like you've mentioned they
don't care too much about the governance aspects or at least not as a phase one deliverable okay
is typically typically how we do this is to bake in governance as part of the whole development
life cycle so how do we get to an end working goal in the quickest possible way? So the organization
can start testing and they can start providing feedback and they have something tangible in front of them
whilst in parallel we are still posing the governance questions and building that a governed
environment alongside that so it's definitely a tight walk or a tight rope should I say to walk
but typically the approach we've used with the on-expring work has enabled us to be able to
deliver both. Yeah what do good governance actually look like from your prospector?
It's a combination of things Mercone to be honest that's probably a whole nother
and podcast session in itself so I'll try to keep it relatively relatively small so we look at this
from a security perspective perspective from a permissions perspective really understanding
where the data comes from any security risks of that data is it PII data for example how much of
it is sensitive is the data shareable across an organization if it's not who should have access
to it who then oversees this process over time when do we have periodic checks to ensure that
this governance is in place what layers do we need to implement this governance in is it just in
the warehouse is it also through object level security, row level security, accesses to workspaces
etc so there's multiple layers to overcome from that perspective so I guess to kind of try to
summarize that you have the data culture layer is the organization geared up to be able to support
governance and do they understand their data who own so you have their ownership and responsibility
layer and then you have the technical implementation layer as well where you look across that whole
architecture and estate and define those governance points and then how you manage and maintain
these standards over time so how you track and how you monitor and ensure this observable
and readily available to the organization as well yeah I think about companies like
they provided governance frameworks and maturity models what did you think about those absolutely
I think that the closer we get to standardization in the in the future is is going to be absolutely
ideal because we typically have like you've just mentioned various different data governance
standards, I'm sure we say and some of these are geographically based as well some of these are
actually industry and domain based and some of these are actually just from organizations themselves
so it would be good in the future to have a standardized framework but I think you hit the
nail on the head when you said the fact that they are using a framework is typically the first point
of getting towards a win as opposed to not having any framework implementation at all
and yeah when we talk about governance especially in fabric you have built fab offs so can you
a little bit explain what problems it's off yeah absolutely so for those the people like myself
and like organizations that we work with that have worked in power BI and now fabric and the joy of
these tools is you're absolutely able to get up and running very quickly a pace and start to
deliver value but it also becomes a bit of a sprawl okay typically when I speak to IT admins or
fabric admins it's very difficult for them to understand what users are doing over in marketing how
they're building their semantic models and reports is that in line with standards set in finance
etc and then as you add multiple capacities to this multiple semantic models reports which then
scale into the hundreds and thousands it becomes this the behalf of that is very difficult to be able
to observe understand and maintain and most importantly to govern and this is absolutely what fab
ops does it's that always on kind of Sentinel in your environment that really is ensuring that
everything adheres the best practice standards it checks to see if there's any outages in your
environment it delivers automated executive quarterly reports monthly managerial reports and daily
snapshots every area that you would like tracked and alerting and performance based guidelines on
is also covered in there and also from a costing perspective as well how much did my lake house cost
me this month how much did marketing's lake house cost them this month so so forth and all in a single
pain of glass in a single platform so it's also fine also I think it's also a topic yeah it's really
interesting because a lot of people are asking about value but but but I think when I think I heard
often from from problems so a lot of companies they built their stacks on Microsoft they say they
cannot use fabric because we cannot different the different cost of different yeah of our clients
that running on the fabric so so can can fab ops also help here yeah absolutely so we actually give
you the option within fab ops to be able to to tag different workloads and different objects
and then attribute them to either a different client or a different department as well and be able
to track the costs against those and so for example at the end of a month you can have the compute
bill for your finance team you can have the compute bill for your marketing team or if you're doing
this by client a client b client c and you can also have those compute bills readily available as well
so you're absolutely correct and fab fab ops also shifts with that pin ops model to it which allows
you to attribute that spend yeah that does does really cool because like off-road companies have
have this this problem and they stayed and not on fabric um what what did you see which governance
matrix more yeah matters most yeah so I guess just to go back to the to the to the previous point one
moment just for listeners out there so um for those of you that are interested in fab ops it is
freely available directly within Microsoft fabric if you go to the workloads tab scroll down until
you see fab ops and you hit um uh install you can free try all fab ops for for seven days and automatically
get a score of your environment as well so I would recommend you all go ahead um and do that
and then morko i hate giving this answer um uh it's it's typically the consulting answer but which
framework to use um it depends and it depends on so many it's the easiest way for me to answer this
question is for you to work with us on x data and to utilize our data governance framework and
allow us to support you in building out one of the works for your organization um but there are so many
different frameworks that fit different um implementations industries and also and geographies as well
um I think another problem I often see it's company states starts with good data quality but yeah
time over time uh yeah it's still getting better uh how do you monitor data quality uh constantly
oh absolutely and again I work with organizations all of the time um that that don't have the
observability in in place especially across their data pipelines their ingestion processes etc
where you're just starting to track so um and you can have different
quality I can't go into details in regards to what quality looks like because it's very much
dependent on that organization it could be um um um the nulls being introduced is a quality
is a quality check it could be a range um from from an integer value um let's say you shouldn't have any
integers within this this uh data set that go above 1000 for example so first and foremost it's about
defining um what quality looks like for that data the tolerance that you're that you're happy to
observe and then how do you not only track that but how do you then display back to the organization
what good looks like and as you've mentioned how do we then handle any anomalies to those rules
so for example um typically in our implementations we will quarantine any data that doesn't fit within
within tolerance it means that we don't stop the load of the data um but we post those anomalies
into a quarantined environment to be checked manually by a human in the loop and then if they need
to be reprocessed then then they can be but again this is a this is a dedicated framework and a pattern
for how to achieve this in an organization the actual rules themselves um really come from working
alongside the organization and the data sets that they're working with. It's interesting um I think um
when when you look a little bit in the future what did you plan with with the fab ops because
there's coming something new features? Yeah absolutely so we're always consistently working with
organizations um that are at the forefront of utilizing fabric at a high level and the pain points
that they currently have with with the platform. Now obviously um we're in the era of intelligence
and an agentic approaches so we we do utilize this within fab ops one of the great ways we actually
do this is be able to um have an agent that's available to you in fab ops which is contextually driven
to your data to be able to ask questions about the Microsoft technologies and how they can support
you as an organization moving forward. So for our example we're good um example of this is direct
lake lots of organizations don't use direct lake they don't understand it um and they they're not
sure what the value of being able to implement this will have for them. Well directly within fab ops
you can ask that um against your data and be shown um how uh to implement it why you would implement it
and also the expected value back um that you can get from for that implementation. Now our roadmap
is quite long um we work we're working on integration um directly with purview as well uh which um
is exciting uh moving forward and we are getting a lot of requests for actually agents being able to
take right actions. Now there's lots of data governance um alongside that to look at um but it's
nothing it's another exciting uh route forward. So our goal with fab ops is for it to be the the default
tool of observability across your whole fabric estate to be able to at a glance be able to understand
how you're performing from a security a governance a performance and a cost perspective and also to be
able to ensure the best practice is being adhered to um across your organization so one way to look
at this is are my marketing team and i've been picking on marketing quite a lot today so i apologize
are my marketing team using that best practice for all of their calculations um are they are they
adhering to our reports standardizations and logo placements etc you can now do all of that
in an automated fashion um across your whole estate. Yeah it's okay to talk about marketing i
came from the marketing part and uh yeah it's the people they they uh do the most cartics
cause they're at the most special visitors or on so on but uh wait what what does
govant um govant production really mean from your perspective. Yeah so i guess in today's day and age
with data being more prevalent um and i guess with large language models and gen ai being where it is
organizations are a lot more open now to threats um than they ever have been before
computer literacy is it is all time high um inference and all time high the availability of data
and computer and all time high so all of this comes together to really put in place a melting pot
which allows organizations like us to support organizations to drive value um but also it means
the organizations become more open to external bad actors but also internal bad actors as well so
starting with that governed first approach um ensuring that you have protection not only externally
but internally with what is quickly becoming your most valuable asset which is your data um is a
key component to get right day one. And uh what one i also found interesting it's uh i think it's
more four or three years or so and uh Microsoft introduced uh the co-pilot AI in in fabric and
yeah it looks so good at uh at uh yeah the demo and and we try it and it's only say okay you have to
done this this this this so i think here it was nearly uh yeah a little bit like google insights
uh a fabric uh so i don't have to open another browser but i'm not really so angry with it
now what what will you say what a doos co-pilot or i play uh what role does it play now in
Microsoft fabric yeah absolutely so i think that co-pilot and just general AI are probably
two separate two separate things um personally so i think that what co-pilot does is it gives you
that introduction um to generate it AI technologies within your fabric environment to make
processes quicker and smoother in a chat interface now the way i think about it is like when we first
got intelligence and the and the use of red gate tools and and in the toolbell right it just made
my process of development a lot quicker uh by being able to tab or use shortcuts and it's very
similar to co-pilot it's a lot quicker by me being able to guide co-pilot and it's very much that
introductory piece right now then there's a journey to go on because utilizing let's call it um
more intelligent AI so a foundry implementation for example whereby you can start to get a bit more
agentic or utilizing vs code um with a large language model of your choice as a frontier model
would potentially open up to you alongside mcp servers and apis etc much more capabilities than
you currently have with co-pilot in the same way the extending intelligence or your red gate
toolkit um to its highest level would again open up more opportunities to you as well so i think
co-pilot is a great starting point um and it's already been able to unlock a lot of more efficient
processes for organizations to at least get started um but realistically where we start to see a
lot of value is with intelligent solutions using foundry um that then orchestrate multiple agents
alongside business processes did you think um fabric can become i don't know uh uh
beburetik or something for for a large language models sorry can it become a i missed up i'm sorry
okay can it be a main source for for large language models um so i guess i believe that foundry
will become or it already is um the main source for large language models the microsoft team do a
great job of being able to make new releases available on on day zero of all of the the frontier
models which is the no small task so great work by them what i believe foundry um will become will
be the data late the data in the context layer for all of those large language and even small
language models as well um to go and feast on uh if i go back to that table and and in a service
analogy um fabric really becomes the table and the plates for the feast to be um and the food in
in this extent for everybody to come and feast on whether that's humans or whether that's agents
yeah interesting i think this will be uh amazing amazing uh future when when all all work together
i think also uh i i i think a i foundry it's it's the best uh uh product from from michael soft
i i don't like the ko pa la studio and all the other things so i think that's the best i like
and yeah i think uh yeah it will become really really interesting um when when we look a little bit
about yeah i say business value leadership why why do executives often lose confidence in in
AI and data programs because of the time to value um we i've cited some uh some stats at the
beginning of of of the podcast and i can there's lots of stacks there's lots of stats available on the
likes of mckinsey etc um AI and data initiatives and they used to be called business intelligence
or bi initiatives um have always been very costly very timely to get to value and particularly
with with AI or gen AI and today's day and age they actually don't get to value 99% of the time so
executives are right to be fearful of lots of capital being wasted for no output and this exactly
why we build the onick's methodology and and framework alongside this um we absolutely ensure
that the data being presented back by the gen AI is accurate it's um hallucination free which is
audited and provable um we assess business um metrics and build the use case against the metrics
that we're actually going to increase or decrease depending on what type of metrics they are
and we prove this out in as little as 12 weeks which we're doing alongside industry leading
organizations um across the globe um today so with this type of approach it's very difficult to get to
that um 99% of of projects not achieving um production we're we're pretty much closer to the
opposite where the vast majority of our of our projects do achieve productionization um and do
go on to um to drive value within an organization as well so that's typically what we've seen
in my experience in how we've been able to circumnavigate it for organization.
So uh how shall company think about AI harness?
And so I think we are very much governed um by what's available on the market
we typically orchestrate at least um our gen AI implementations with Foundry when we actually
utilize gen AI ourselves typically we're dependent on the harnesses of the organization whether
that's codex, uh whether it's Claude code etc um each have their benefits but I think that
that's now becoming the dominant playground um the vast majority of frontier models and now
a similar capability and we're starting to see this um even with some of the um the the smaller
player should we say the likes of um deep-seek the the stilling models and still being able to
compete with the the frontier models again that could be a whole podcast episode in itself um in
the complexities and the nuances of that um but now it becomes more apparent um the capabilities
of the harness and for me and for up to currently leading that race.
Did you think in the future we we need the longer data engineers and data analysts or will
it uh completely uh replace by by AI and when they uh will survive what how will these will change?
Absolutely we will continue to need them so uh give you an example of this Merco
we are implementing for organizations what we call autonomous swarms of data engineers and software
engineers okay the technology is called um onnix kiln and anybody interested please feel free to
reach out to me okay now what this technology does is exactly what you've just mentioned um it enables
you to spin up a team of data engineers it was specializing in notebooks like houses etc
and having a principal developer that sits above them uh improves their work and it all flows through
through devops and all of your um common patterns in in development and then you have a human in the loop
um that finally goes ahead to approve the work and manages those agents and that's exactly the point
that i was getting to okay um what won't happen in my opinion is that these personas and roles will
be replaced by agents they will become um hyper enabled by them okay now for myself um previously being
a developer still being very technical and and having built up onnix data um i was getting quite bored
of development five six years ago um what this is enabled me to do with the new wave of gen AI is
really get excited again about how i develop okay um what we're seeing when i speak to development
teams is it now actually being able to achieve a huge amount more uh value and they're actually working
harder than they ever have been previously even being assisted um by um by these agents and the
reason for that is because they're able to deliver so much more there's always been a huge backlog
organizations are now seeing the art of the possible um art of the possible and so the workload is
increasing now because you have this enabled team of developers that are supporting you and to become
more efficient the workload increases um so we continue to need people in those roles with their
expertise to oversee that development yeah also yeah oh we're running a little bit off time so uh i
have a quick fire out so you i uh ask you a short question and you say what what can you
say in your mind to pass absolutely okay uh power BI or fabric apps currently power BI
coffee uh energy drink or tea uh through uh audits uh definitely coffee
oh it's interesting i think you're a little bit getting new that
um uh uh co-pilot or traditional BI
co-pilot uh how do bellings uh governments and uh innovation
with the correct approach and a framework and methodology that enables both to happen at the same time
uh data lake or raros data lake what's your favorite Microsoft product
good question let's go with fabric okay when uh uh satya nidalya comes on say hey leon garden
i give you all the money and resources you need uh with feature will you develop
a technology that creates world peace
is there one book everyone should read uh yes if it was only one book then
i would suggest um for those leading an organization profit first um how important are a community
oh um massively important i spent a lot of time building communities so um one of the highest
priorities and what's the one school every i tea professional short learn now
how to learn um how to continue to learn new technologies uh that's the key skill for me
what's the best british dish oh british dish oh um let's just go for tea and crampits let's be
traditional um yeah so um thank you for for staying here with me so so my closing question is
what's next for annex data continuing to support clients to deliver value on their journey with
data and AI technology specifically in the Microsoft realm is such an exciting time to be involved
in in the ecosystem there's so much value and to be driven and that's really where we see ourselves
growing yeah then leon thank you so much for joining me today it was uh yeah incredible insightful
conversation about yeah one of the biggest challenge uh facing organizations today not building the
AI demo but delivery AI systems that actually creates yeah business value yeah we explore
Microsoft fabric, QVU governance, semantic models, AI agents, co-pilot, the pilot talks and yeah
why production ready AI is uh about yeah much more about technology yeah so if you're planning a
Microsoft development holding enterprise AI solution also on so all the list not showed with it
uh leon gordon on on linked in his other channel and yeah especially uh showed also look at
at the onyx data website yeah so thank you for being here and uh expand it nearly one hour with me
my pleasure thanks you so much for having me Marco it's been an interesting pleasure
Thank you, bye, bye.
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