Resilience can also mean that we accept that bad things happen.
Trauma happens, adversity happens, just even within ourselves, within relationships.
It is just part of life.
And so there's a healthy amount of disruption and repair that needs to happen.
And it's how we navigate that, that healthy amount that we need to get a little bit more
comfortable with.
It's that discomfort that we need to get a little bit more comfortable with in order
for us to make real progression.
Welcome to the Executive Connect Podcast, a show for the new generation of leaders.
Join Melissa R. Spaga as she speaks to a wide variety of guests that bring new insights into
leadership, prosperity, and personal growth.
While no one has all the answers, by building a community of open-minded and engaged leaders,
we hope to give you the tools you need to help you find your own path to success.
Welcome to the Executive Connect Podcast.
I'm excited to have KINGA, VITA, here today to speak with us on Living Life in the Grey
Zone.
She is the founder of Execute Your Intentions that focuses on empowering others and turning
bold intentions into impactful realities.
She's a new author of the book Beyond Foundaries, Thriving in Life's Grey Zones.
Welcome, KINGA.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
And I have to say that this is actually an anthology.
It was a group effort.
And I have a part of 27 authors.
So I am just one chapter amongst many great talented people.
So we're very excited about it.
I love it.
So let's jump right in and talk to me about what it means to live life in the Grey Zone.
And why is it important to navigate life in the Grey Zone?
Yeah.
So the Grey Zone, you know, when I was approached about participating in this anthology,
I was thinking, well, what exactly is the Grey Zone?
How are we defining that?
And I don't know if you've ever taken the Myers-Briggs test, but I took it, I think it was in
my 20s and I was defined as an ESTJ.
And as soon as I saw what the definition of an "J" was, is this black or white, we see
things and I was like, "That fits me."
And then really I started thinking, well, things are not always black and white, although I'm
a pretty decisive person.
And how does it fit when things are a struggle, when we're facing adversity or when we're
not sure what to do?
And so when I was approached with writing this book, how will we all interpret what that
Grey Zone really means?
And so Dr. Constance Leighlin had approached many of us and said, you know, we're all going
through some type of adversity within our lives and we want to write a survival guide for
others.
We want to take a time in our lives when we have struggled and survived and think about
our legacy that we want to leave and share with others around how did you get through that?
Now really become passionate that we want to give people an opportunity to not have to
struggle in the way that we have and to give them that survival guide.
So that's what it's all about for all of these authors that participated.
I love it.
Now what are you from the women that have contributed to the book?
What are some common challenges that people have in dealing with life and uncertainty in
the Grey Zone?
Oh gosh.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I know that personally, whenever I have not known
how to face a challenge, it's oftentimes you're not sure where to start.
And you also don't even know who do I go to?
Who do I trust?
And I think that we have oftentimes really well-intentioned people, but they don't necessarily
understand what your needs are.
And so unless we have it within us to really understand what our current status and how
do we check in with ourselves and have a good sense of where we want to go, like where
we're trying to go?
I think that so often we have a little bit of this ambiguity again.
And so that's the real challenge is this transformation and struggling with, well, no one else
can define that for us.
And so these well-intentioned people that are giving us advice, really in place, how are
they going to help you get there?
And so we get all this information, all this advice coming at us.
And gosh, they don't know.
Only we can really look within ourselves to figure that out.
I don't know.
That's happened to you.
I know, definitely.
I think, you know, if I'm going from Texas to California, I need to figure out which way
I'm not just going to get in the car and drive and figure out, you know, is it, do I
turn left here or right here?
For me, I like to know what's at the end and work my way back for us.
Now I'm my head through, you know, Arizona, through New Mexico, through Marfa, but it's the
gray zone along the way, but I need to know a direction where I'm landing, where I'm expecting
to be at the other end.
And similar, I'm similar personality to you where I'm kind of that black and white, you
know, things are black and white.
But I think living in the gray, from my perspective, it's a place of creativity.
You're able to create different things or new experiences.
So whether I go through Marfa, or I skip Marfa, I'm still creating with an end goal in
mind.
Yeah.
So when you think of like uncertainty, like the gray, I think a gray is like an uncertainty
area.
How do you correlate it back to personal growth and professional development?
Yeah.
So really when we're trying to figure out how do I want to, just like what you're talking
about, we want to figure out where through creativity, what's right for us.
So to me, it is that exploration.
It is that real exploration around, all right, I'm going to try something.
I'm going to seek through curiosity lens.
I want to understand does this feel good?
No, it doesn't.
All right.
Well then let me take a little turn, right?
And so it's that decisiveness and being okay with being decisive and then it's also okay
for me to hone in on what feels right for me, this general vision that I have.
You know, you're heading towards California.
No, you're going there.
But it's okay for me to accept that my path might look a little bit different and to reach
my vision and I might not land exactly, but today I have the least information about where
I'm going to end up, but I do have a vision and I just need to hone in on that plan as
I get there and I need to honor myself.
I need to really tap into who I am and the kind of people that I want to support me, the
kind of people and the only way that we can do that is to be curious to build the type
of support network that we want and to feel out what feels good and right and really kind
of pivot along the way.
So to me, that's what it's all about.
Yeah, I think, you know, to your point, there's no book to life that says you have to do
A and then B and then C sometimes people go from A to Z and they're like, what was I thinking?
I need to go back to, you know, to C. And so I think there is in that great area that
you're talking about.
It's kind of like a mindset as well, like being okay with things not being black and
not being white.
You're in between.
So like if you're pivoting from one career to another, there's going to be some great areas
where you're uncertain and you don't know and you're uneasy.
And so I think it's, you know, I think of kind of what you're saying is to lean into this
gray side of yourself.
And like you said, sometimes you're going to need to fire some of the people that are
along the way, right?
They're not adding value to your life.
They might be subtracting value and sometimes you need to hire some new people, right?
And they're going to help you along your professional journey.
Absolutely.
So have you experienced like just from your personal experience?
Have you had an experience where you leaning into this gray zone has become positive for
you or there's been a positive outcome?
Yes.
Absolutely.
And you know, what happens?
There's often times and it feels very cliche to say this.
I'm just going to go ahead and put that out there.
But when you least expected, I hate saying it because I feel so cliche.
But honestly, when you feel that, hey, I'm being pushed, that might be your biggest opportunity.
So I for so long had been day dreaming about leaving my corporate career because as
I was navigating my my corporate journey, I just saw so many roadblocks for me to be able
to make the impact that I wanted to make.
And I realized that there were things that I could make a difference in the way that we
worked together as communities.
And I felt that, you know, if I were able to leverage the communities that are out there,
the resources that are out there and bring leaders together from all kinds of different
backgrounds together, what kind of, how could we solve some real problems?
And so in early 20, 23, I started my own business and decided to make that jump from corporate
into building my own business.
And that is a major grave for me.
And I had no idea, quite frankly, what my business is really going to shape into.
And it's taken a while.
And a lot of people are like, what exactly do you do?
And at first I was like, maybe consulting, maybe because it was kind of just really for me.
And I was a VP of program management, you know, it's a kind of introduction.
And yeah, I didn't quite know because I hadn't had that experience yet.
I'd been in corporate for so long.
And so I was like, well, I need to figure out how, what I've learned over these years can
transfer into just life into how can I help with this greater purpose that I'm feeling?
And so I had to spend a good year really getting to know communities, community leaders, industries,
people that I wanted to.
So I had to lead through my curiosity.
I had to understand how can I leverage what I've learned over the past, you know, many years
through my adult coaching, how can I bring people together?
How can I identify the kind of the communities and partnerships that I want so that I can figure
out how I can best serve the type of people that I want to serve?
So I love what you said.
I've had to teach myself to be like, I'm a very A plus B person.
I start my day at this time.
These are my meetings.
They're lined up.
And I, to your point, I know that sometimes you have to retrain yourself how to do things.
Like I've been riding a bike my whole life and, you know, it's, it's comfortable.
It's natural.
I'm a W2 employee.
I know how to work through corporate America.
But when you shift, like you mentioned, from being a W2 employee to owning your own business,
so a whole different mindset shift and your, you know, your entire day is great, right?
Like where do you spend your time?
How do I move through my day?
And so how do you, how do you, any suggestions for people like you mentioned at the beginning
that are black and white, very type A that, you know, when they plan a trip, they plan
it six months in advance.
They know exactly what they're doing, they know what they're taking.
They're very organized.
How do we shift those people's minds to going from black and white, you know, normal normal
to, you know, experience a little bit of the gray zone?
Yeah, I think that it is a delicate balance of strategic planning, being okay with it, having
your eye on the prize, thinking about accepting all the people around us and that, that saying,
we have to take into account where everybody is, where they're at, where they're, their
risk tolerance, I think, really understanding the people that we want to have on our journey
with us, what they can, what they can kind of, you know, understanding their preferences,
their preferences, accepting them for what they need and, and people's non-negotiables,
having that conversation up front is so important, aligning around that.
And so, honing in on your plans and saying, okay, you know, let's paint that vision together,
let's create something together and make sure that we're really aligned around that in the
same way.
And as long as we're communicating effectively and keeping that alignment, I think that it's
so, it's so helpful for everybody to really go on that journey together.
And when we have journeys that we can experience together, then we really feel that force, that
momentum, and we're able to accomplish so much more than we ever thought that we were able
to and the momentum is just really powerful.
Yeah, I think back to when, you know, a very big, great part of my life was when I left engineering
and went into the casino gaming industry.
I didn't know anyone, I didn't know the industry.
It was all great for me.
And it was a lot of, like you mentioned, the beginning.
I had to connect with people, understand the industry, do my own research, get out to
see other clients.
And I really had to lean in, you know, just starting over and starting, starting fresh
in New and I took a substantial pay cut to leave engineering to go into gaming.
And, you know, that was great for me.
You know, I'd build a certain way.
And so I think, you know, one of the things I think that a word that comes to mind is resiliency
and giving yourself time and grace to get through, you know, a change in your life.
Whatever the great part of your life is leaving corporate America or having a baby or
getting married or all these things that are net new and big changes in our life.
And you hit on a good point, like connecting with people and communicating with people that
have been through what you've been through.
So people that have transitioned from a W2 job to a self-employed, being self-employed
through their business.
And so I think to your point, like connecting and creating that community, they're able
to give you strength when you're uncertain and kind of living in that gray zone.
I know there are people along my way in gaming where they're like, oh, you'll figure it
out.
And I'm like, okay, I'll figure it out.
And I don't, you know, it had to use that boost of confidence from other people when
I wasn't confident about knowing a net new space.
So what do you think for people that are going through a gray part of their life, you know,
as adversity and resilience tie into that, any thoughts on maybe how people can adapt to
that?
Yeah.
And so resilience in itself, I think, is just, is an important word for us to break down
for a second.
And I'd love your thoughts on this.
I think that, I think in general, this word is used so often where, personally, I felt
that we are living in a really high changing time.
And there's a lot of trauma that's happening.
And I don't want to, I don't want to ignore that, right?
And so we're going through tremendous change just as a society.
And there's so much trauma that is happening across generations and within the work industry.
And when we talk about that, I hear resilience getting used in a very loose way where people
might feel like they just have to kind of toughen up in certain ways.
And that, I think it would be dangerous because we're, we're expecting people to maybe just
have coping skills around things that potentially are dangerous if we ignore the root cause of
the problem.
And that scares me.
It scares me if we have decided that as a society that we become more resilient rather than informed
around the traumas that we might be causing.
And so I have a friend, Stephanie Limec, who is very big advocate and introducing a trauma
informed society.
And I think that that is one way that we can work towards understanding how to as a more
educated society, how we can help each other.
So I think that's one way to look at it is how can we all become better partners towards
helping each other.
And then I think the other way to kind of look at this is that that resilience can also
mean that we accept that bad things happen.
Trauma happens, you know, adversity happens just even within ourselves within relationships.
It's life, right?
It is just part of life.
And so there's a healthy amount of disruption and repair that needs to happen.
And it's how we navigate that.
So that's that healthy amount that we need to get a little bit more comfortable with.
It's that discomfort that we need to get a little bit more comfortable with in order
for us to make real progression within ourselves within our relationships within our organizations
or our communities.
And that might be it's it's where that I think that we need to do, but I think that we need
to take a harder look at that.
So I'd love to know your thoughts on that because I think we're both passionate people in
this area.
No, I think, you know, when I think of resilience, I don't mean resilience without empathy.
To go, I don't think any of us get out of out of life without some form of trauma or struggle
or issue or problem.
Like we're all dealing with, you know, when you're younger, you have different issues, different
trauma as different struggles than as you get older.
And I think the difference, which as I get older is I've gone through things which has boosted
my confidence with co and how to respond and react to things.
And I think, but still to your point, like, you know, not discounting people's emotion and
say, Oh, tough enough, you should not act like this or, you know, definitely why are they
acting that way?
And what can we, you know, understanding why people are responding a certain way to things
or maybe I'll use the word trigger, triggered for different comments or different things.
And understanding and appreciate where they are, their life.
And, you know, staying things in a way that's respectful.
Like, yes, it's like human decency and respect.
But, you know, basically we all were inside our home, not communicating with our immediate
family.
And so for the younger generations, I would say some of their communication skills are a
little bit behind, right?
They lost a year.
And so when I think of resiliency, I don't mean resiliency and adapting without empathy and
understanding.
I think it go very close to each other because, you know, I've been through different things
in my life.
And, you know, if someone said, oh, you just got a tough enough, and you know, I'm like,
okay, but then when you tell people to tough enough, they don't deal with stuff, right?
They toughen up, you know, communicate, they, so it, it triggers different behaviors,
too, right?
So, like, and that can carry through your life.
And so, and I'm so passionate about this because, and I'll, and I'll tell you why, because
I think with the emergence of the layoffs, there was, or the emergence of coaching.
And I'm calling it somewhat of a coaching crisis.
And, and myself included that I wanted to, you know, start with a new career.
I am so passionate about becoming an advisor to others.
And so we have this, these coaches that are very well in pension, but they don't necessarily
take the time to truly understand someone's current state and what they need before they
say, oh, I know how to help you.
This is what you need.
They identify a target market, bucket you as a target market, and then say, I know how
to fix your problem.
And so because of that, I'm, I'm concerned that there is a certain amount of, you know,
probably that people could go through and say, all right, well, you need coaching for this.
And because of that, they, they're pulling them into some kind of program that that person
doesn't actually need.
And it doesn't actually solve that person's problem.
And because that coach only understands how to solve one problem.
And so they're getting pulled into different directions because they don't know how to navigate
their ambiguity.
And so I think that that is, that's what I'm seeing happen a lot is that people are going
through this ambiguity of their life.
I'm not sure where I want to go.
A well intentioned coach who understands how to solve a problem, season need of paid, there
is somebody going through this ambiguity in life.
And so I'm going to pull you in this direction.
And so they're, they're kind of going, and then that person ends up somewhere and goes,
well, wait, that's not exactly where I wanted to end up.
And so, oh, well, I led you here and you said you wanted this.
Yeah, so for just a quite look where I wanted to end up.
And so we're having, we're getting a lot of pulls.
And so in the end, we're not really tapping into allowing that person who originally was
struggling with something ambiguity, they'll their own personalized plan.
So that's a good point.
So I, first of all, I love coaches.
I don't think I've done, I've, from a young age, I've had coaches starting with my parents,
athletic coaches, teacher coaches.
I am a big fan of coaches, mentor, mentors, there's many different words for them, gurus.
But I think now, my opinion, we've, we've migrated to a place where everybody wants everything
immediately.
I want my dry cleaning, I want my food, my Amazon package at my doorstep.
And so coaches really have to make progress quick for people.
Otherwise, people get lost in the process.
And I think, you know, no coach are going to sign up and in one session, you're going to
hammer out all your details, you're going to have this dream like it takes time and work.
And, and I think the, the one thing I see with people in the coaching space is they do run
through it quick.
They run through it quick because they have to because their clients want all their problems
to be solved just like, you know, we see on social media, this one pills going to make everybody
their ideal weight overnight.
And so I think we've become a society that wants everything today without the actual work.
And if you've had some challenges in your life, it may take time to go through and sort
through it.
And so I think we're going to need a coach that can, you know, pull back those layers.
Coaching is about pulling back layers, right?
And people are not going to show up to their first day with a coach and say, you're in my
whole life story.
Now tell me how to fix my life because that's not coaching.
That's telling people what to do with their life.
People need to lead themselves to their answers.
And, and I think that is the key part is listening to your clients and understanding, you know,
why is there objection only money?
Why is there objection only a title?
Why is there objection?
Whatever their objections are, understanding why, why do they want much?
Maybe it's a sense of security for them because their whole life they never have security.
Maybe they were homeless and, you know, we don't know what people's situations are.
And so I would agree that coaching is, coach, if a coach gets on a phone and says, hey,
we need to do step one and then step two and then step two and then three and then you tell
your boss, you know, this, that might not be the right thing for them like you said.
Right.
And I think for me and what I'm hoping that my clients would see that's different about
what I'm offering is that it's so important that upfront, we talk about your current state,
also the transformation that you are really hoping to achieve and also acknowledging that
you know the least amount of information that we have just a vision and let's continue
to keep that vision very clear and aligned and then build, and this is where my project
management background comes into help in use is that we build that vision so we keep our
eye on the prize, the eye on the target, but that we build an actionable plan that we
can continue to refine and iterate as we go and you learn more about yourself and you learn
more about, you know, the skills that you want to develop and you learn more about the communities
that you want to engage with.
And as you refine and go, you're honing in.
And so you're getting closer and closer to your vision, you're getting closer and closer
to the transformation that you genuinely want for yourself so you're literally creating
what you want.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, I was just thinking when you were mentioning that, I'm like, "What is
my longest coach I've had?"
And I was thinking back to my childhood, "I had a coach for three years.
I saw this man every week for three years to get better at a sport I was playing and
constant work, constant work, and in the minute that I fixed whatever I was working on,
then something else popped up and then I go switch strategies to work on that."
And so I think to your point is really, you know, the PM role I have to imagine is fantastic
in coaching because you're dealing with a lot of different pieces and a lot of different
goals.
And, you know, I think like we can all be coaches and mentors to other people for certain
aspects of our life, right?
If you raise kids, you can be a mentor, raising kids.
If you've, you know, gone through a divorce, you could be a mentor on divorce.
And if you've transitioned from being a W2 employee to being, you know, having your own
business so we can all be coaches, but I do like what you said that you listen and understand
your clients because that is key to really good relationships with people is non-transactional.
It is, it is an understanding of both ways, right?
You have to understand what the client expectations are.
They need to understand what you can deliver.
And realize that we're all a work in progress.
We're all working towards different things at any given time.
And understanding that it takes time is key, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
It is, like, I can't even imagine the number of times where, and this is what I loved
about being a project manager was, and I told my team since all the time and my boss and
everybody in the entire organization was, my job is to keep an eye on the prize, which is
the goals, the vision and the people.
That's it, right?
It's to be an unbiased, completely unbiased perspective so that I'm protecting everybody
and what we're trying to do.
And when I could take that lens, then I'm so focused on the interactions, the success of
everybody and everything.
And so I was very protective, and I took this kind of protective role where I wanted to
make sure that everybody's voice is heard, the right people are in the room, you know, that
kind of thing.
And so I have a trained eye for protecting what people are actually looking for, what they're
trying to achieve, what they're trying to get out of things.
I know how to ask those provocative questions to make sure that we're combing in on what
they really want.
So it's, I love it because it's really exciting.
You just shine through with it.
So I just kind of a couple things.
Maybe one last question.
Maybe your top three specific tools or practices that people can embrace when living their
life through the gray zone and finding whatever it is they're looking to find.
I think in the moment, constantly reprioritized.
So be very conscious of the fact that you're doing strategic planning.
So keeping your focus on what you overall really want to do, but also taking that actionable
like thing.
And so you want to be prioritizing and weighing the priorities between those two activities.
And but being very conscious.
And so I guess that third element is like conscious decision making.
Be very conscious that you are doing an iterative planning against strategy, tactical and being
conscious in your prioritization, value your community, make sure you have the right resources
and people supporting you along the way because we can't do it alone.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, my friend, for all your fabulous insights.
I'm so excited about your book.
I'm so excited for you and your new business.
Tell our listener as how they can connect with you and learn more about what you're doing.
Well, I made some great updates on my website.
So I'm so excited about that.
It's on executeyourintentions.com.
And I am very active on LinkedIn.
So please connect with me.
I would love to have some more friends.
Thank you so much for being here today.
And that's the Executive Connect Art Apps.
Thank you.
You've been listening to the Executive Connect podcast.
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