[Music]
Monster House Presents
It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before
A giant airing creature, a part-eight, on a mass
In Loch Ness, a 24-mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland
It's a creature known as the Loch Ness Monster
[Music]
Monster Talk
Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm Blake Smith
And I'm Karen Stolzner
Hey there, Monster Talkers. Karen is still out on vacation, but we'll be back after this two-parter
I was planning to talk with Richard Hadham, who is the screenwriter for the Mothman Prophecies
About his new podcast, but I wasn't sure when I was going to get that scheduled
And then I ran into some logistic issues due to Karen's travel and my move to our new advertising platform
And Richard super kindly agreed to hop in for a quick 30-minute chat
Which then sprawled out into this really fun and wide-raging discussion that went for a full hour
Now I really enjoy Richard's new show, which we will be talking about in this discussion
And a link to it's in the show notes. It's called Richard Hadham's Paranormal Bookshelf
It's produced through the astonishing Legends Network, and it's not at all what I expected, yet I still really enjoyed it
You will too. You can easily find it in any podcast platform by searching for it
But there's also a link in the show notes here along with a link to some fun weird stuff that Richard introduced me to in this discussion
So here is part one, and we'll be back with part two on Labor Day
Monster Talk
So I'm having you on today to talk about your new show, which I loved
Yay, thank you!
Season one was great
This is Richard Hadham's Paranormal Bookshelf
But if you just think it's a bunch of book reviews, that's not what it is
You've managed to incorporate, I think, an extraordinarily well-written amount of biographical content into the shows, which gives it an emotional weight
That a book review show would not have, so it's really great
Well, thank you, and it happened totally by accident
So what happened was, I, okay, so about if we're in August, so this is like a year ago spring
So this is just before the writer's strike in the summer of 2023
Okay
And the ASSAPUK
God in touch with me
And I know some of the people from the group, and I had spoken to the group before
But they got back in touch and basically said, "Hey, do you want to come and just talk to our group?"
It's the association for the scientific study of anomalous phenomenon
Yeah
And they're really fun, and they go back decades
And they're a group you'd probably like, because they're not like super advocates
And they're not like, you know, rabid in terms of anything other than having a good time
Having a laugh
Yeah, yeah
Because it's British
Yeah
And having a drink and then talking about this stuff, but they're very willing to sort of hear all slides of me too
You mean they're basically reasonable people?
That's so weird, how do they keep membership?
I don't know, that's how they're posing, so I don't know how they're pulling it all
I love it
Yeah
And they have people come and speak, and so of course I was speaking on Zoom, and they're like, you can talk about whatever you want
And so the first time I just talked about Mothman, and that's easy, because I just talk about my experience
But then they were like, well, why don't you come on and talk about a supernatural subject?
And I was like, oh, yeah, that's great
But then I was like, oh, wait a second, like this talk is going to go on for like an hour
And I don't know any supernatural subject well enough to speak extemporaneously on it for an hour
So even after a subject was landed upon, and the subject was the Spiricom
Oh, okay
I've heard of this, okay, but what is it, because I don't want to claim that I know exactly what it is
I just know I've heard the term before
A quick honesty answer, I told Richard after this interview, I had thought I had heard this term before
But after he began to describe it, I had not
I think I was thinking of something like Spir's new mode of power god machine from the spiritualism days
Or maybe that equipment that John Hutchison used on video to pretend that he could cancel gravity
But it was none of those things, it's something much more interesting to me
Stand by
So the Spiricom is this thing that was developed in the 70s, and the idea was it could it was EVP to the next level
It could it was a device that could facilitate a two way like shortwave radio conversation
Nice
Living person and a dead person
Okay, do you remember who developed it?
Yes, it was developed by a guy named George Meek and he was a he was a tech head
Yeah, and and he but he had no media mystic abilities and he was basically looking for someone who was sort of an electronics genius
But who was also a medium thinking that could sort of help bridge the gap because then that person could get in touch
Could step one would be you're a medium who's also a tech head so we found a guy named Bill O'Neill
And and the logic was okay use your media mystic abilities to find a ghost on the other side
Establish a connection and then start working with the ghost on developing the machine
Nice, that's wise, that's wise
Yeah, I mean, you know in a way it's this you know airtight logic right
And so Bill O'Neill did manage to communicate with someone who was also an electronics radio nerd on the other side
And established contact and then the idea was that the two of them together worked on this device until it's like can you hear me now?
Can you hear me now?
And then one day the voice came through and it was Dr. Mueller who was the ghost on the other side
Okay, this is a great story
Yes, yeah, now you will be very pleased to know that I went ahead I you know and I've known about the Spiracom
for decades so I wrote this 35 page
Presentation where I basically
Talked about the entire history of the Spiracom but also talked about my history when I first heard about the Spiracom when I was a teenager
You know back at my parents house, you know in 1980 or whatever it was 83
And then sort of worked my way backward and forward through my life and my discovery of a book that was written about the Spiracom and all the stuff
All the way up through today in which the Spiracom has more or less been debunked and debunked in a really interesting way
And so I sort of take the story all the way through my era of belief and then my late discovery that there is almost no evidence supporting that this thing ever worked
And specifically because they put all the specs out and they said everyone else build this machine and try to do it
That's very scientific that's exactly what you should do
Yeah, yeah, and no one was ever able to do it the problem was meek also didn't keep a real strict eye on bill O'Neal
And bill O'Neal while I do believe was a medium and was able to communicate with the dead at a certain point
I think he just
Fudged the Spiracom and began doing it on his own and it's so funny because he he released early early video tape
I mean picture video from the mid 70s early 80s of him in his in his barn where the Spiracom setup was
And he's talking to George and of course it sounds like this he's like you know oh Dr. Mueller are you there Dr. Mueller
And Mueller is like
That's very authentic sounding it really is it's like
I'm not gonna keep interrupting Richard but this is an actual clip from a Spiracom session
I have an amulet here you are, I'll see you sir
I see you got there's all this videotape of him having this two-way conversation
But two things one his back is always to the camera so it's shooting at him facing the setup
So you never see his mouth yeah, that is the best setup for ventriloquism it really is when you never face the other one
The dummy turns around and well hey you know Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy had a huge radio
I love that so much this is a standing family get around the tube
Look at this incredible he's drinking a glass of water how's this done
I know nothing really captures the magic of ventriloquism like radio
It really is the best medium for it right
So anyway so you never see you never see his face often his right hand is not visible so it's like oh that he was holding the you know
The voice modulator and but then but then I going through the internet and all the people commenting
For decades and tearing this stuff apart no no you're wrong no you're wrong and all this stuff finally someone provided a
An argument that stunned me and I started reviewing all the clips I'd ever seen or heard
And their argument was so simple it was simply here's the problem you never hear them talk at the same time
Oh that's a good one yeah yeah right and if if he had thought it through he could have pre-recorded you know but you know
Oh why bother yeah he are
And and there were there were
And you would think because the notion was that the communication was so I mean just barely able you know
And the other problem is you don't notice because that tone there's this sort of like buzzing tone that's coming out of the
Spiracom at all times and then is being manipulated by the ghost voice or at least that was always the theory
So you're always hearing this buzz even when only below Neil is talking and so he's talking but there's this
And then he turns into
And so you it doesn't occur to you that they're not talking over each other until someone mentions it and then you listen and you're like oh my god of course they be talking over you and I have talked over each other
And we can see each other yeah yeah of course of this zoom and we're both alive well I'm as far as I know allegedly right yeah yeah if you call this living
Yeah anyway all of which is to say I wrote this thing I delivered my talk to the ASSAP I answered questions we had a blast and then it was over
And this was May of 2023 and then I was sort of like oh it's kind of a bummer you know it's like I worked on this thing for a few weeks
And then I just did the talk and it's kind of over and and then serendipitously Susan had said oh you know I I went to this podcast you know conference
And the paranormal podcasts are almost the most popular you know way above talking about TV or film or anything like that
It sort of goes like the you know the giant people you know Joe Rogan yeah and then and then lifestyle wellness and gurus and meditation
We're just true crime fall in there is it still is that's the next okay okay like true true crime is is real real thanks
Yeah and then and then but paranormal is up there so she's like if you do a podcast if you know Scott forest you know ever finally you know get you to do it
It should not be TV talk it should be you know and then she goes she's like fishing for something she's like it should be you know Richard
Richard Adams paranormal bookshelf you know and you wow yeah talk about your books and I'm like oh my god yeah yeah yeah that's fantastic
I'm like I did that's what I did 10 days ago yeah and I'm like can I do it again and I'm like well of course I can because every one of those books I remember
when I read them what I was doing when I read them how I felt when I read them and and it's a way and I can sort of do autobiographical just sort of storytelling
And you're doing a great job I can't I gotta send to my listeners it you're a really good writer I mean I mean that as a writer you're really I mean obviously you work in this but I mean plenty of people work as writers in suck
I mean I found it extraordinarily engaging so yeah I think our listeners will too so I really do I highly recommend it you know so
That is amazing I really appreciate that it's really funny I've got friends who have known me for 40 years
And I'm and they're like oh I was listening to you talk about you know you're you know you're when you proposed a Susan or you know when you got to forest
or some story and they're like and I already know the story and I'm sitting in my car going oh my god what's gonna happen next
Exactly it's it's got a tremendous amount of emotional content I don't know how else to say it I mean it's got emotional weight
And if you just review the book or just talked about the concepts in the book that would not be there
I mean look let's see this is my paranormal selfs okay so I'm sure you got more but that's I'm very happy with it it's a nice collection
And that's just the I call them my cookie real books you know that's like if we get into ghost stories is all over there you know I mean I was like you know yeah so I'm waiting for one shelf is okay this is yeah
This is potentially real and then guaranteed nonsense I think this is like you know admittedly fiction you know okay okay
There's a bookstore out here in LA in Burbank called dark delicacies and that's a great title that a great name for a place yeah yeah
It's a it's a great name it's a great place also and and I love it
Do they have coffee or coffee adjacent oh they should right yeah yeah man that's my two things
Coffee and books that's yeah yeah me too except three things plus booze well I got booze but you never can get that at the bookstore
Or at least not around here you can yeah we're gonna that's the big venture Susan and I are like we've got to open the bookstore bar
Dude that would rock I mean who would not want that that's fantastic yeah no you should totally do that I sold
And and of course and we love coffee too so Susan's like well during the day it'll be coffee and then at a certain point
It'll sort of will ad will open the bar and you can sort of do whatever I love it I love it let's do it yeah I mean just I need because I need just one more money losing venture
Yes as we all do we all do yeah I think I can wipe us out so I my my local dispensary near here uh oh uh well I just mine is not my but I mean there is a there is a lot of very well
It's next to my croaker it's not my croaker either but whatever it's they what would you be more embarrassed walking into big city here here's the beautiful I don't know if you picked up on it or not
Through talking to me about a really love puns they they rename they they added coffee to the mix so they basically set up a coffee bar and a
And they caught the coffee pot of course I love it is so good though I mean I go in there to get the coffee and my kids like why are you going into this
Pinser like did you did I'm getting the coffee right yeah but you know they put shit in the coffee
But that's what they said I was like no it's really good coffee is really really good coffee
When I regain consciousness yeah no it's like I'd rate I'd use a coffee and then I just go to sleep like coffee does you know right yeah I'd always put you to sleep and it chills you out yeah totally normal
So no it's really nice the coffee pot they don't not a pain endorsement but a total endorsement so yeah
Well the goofy little bit on dark delicacies was Susan says it's the only bookstore I've ever been to that has a section vampire's
fiction and nonfiction fantastic did you can I weird confession okay I've been married just shy of 25 years right I think it was late last year
That I realized my wife is a vampire hater and I don't mean casually a vampire hater I mean like hard core hates vampires I didn't even know that was a thing and I was like you should have disclosed this when we got married she said you
should have asked before we got married it's like fair fair well okay when you say vampire hater meaning she fears vampires no she hates them as in I was I made some kind of joke about the
lost boys she's like I've never seen that movie I was like how could you not have seen the lost boys she's like I don't like vampires I'm like okay but like drag no no I don't I was like no really you don't like any vampire she likes zero vampires she just hates vampires
zero vampires she just hates vampires and I've been sort I've explored this like I've been poking at her trying to get more information out of her because it turns out she's like well they're stupid okay well that's not really a very clear explanation
like so what do you mean they're stupid she's like well I mean they have so many ways to kill them yet everybody thinks there's sexy and awesome this dumb why would you want to be a vampire when there's like 500 ways to die I mean yeah you live forever but you're
you can only be up at night and everybody wants to kill you and they have a million ways to do it and like wow that is you really thought this through
is all right I mean no she's a vampire big it she really hates vampires she's like she's she's hard core about it I really like is now become this super obvious I married a vampire racist and didn't know
well well it's like it's almost like she's upset because she thinks it's a poorly designed archetype of it's it her explanation was so fucking nerdy and I but she does not self identify as a nerd or anything like that you know so yeah she I mean does is it like but on the other I love mummies
no no no she's not much of a monster fan to be honest you know what else she's not a fan of she doesn't hit the right guy she doesn't care for podcast see there's really interesting I in the background I see someone walking out the door with a suitcase yeah what's going on
vampires are my right you get shocking another one of those vampires work in mysterious ways they really do no it's been she like zombies that's that's her favorite monsters zombies so yeah
so she's big on any kind of zombie movie my god trained to pass on I don't know if you seen that but holy shit what a ride
don't really not see if you have a seem to do do you so favor it's a Korean movie trained to pass on you will not regret it it is balls to the wall the entire time is such and you
would think zombies are tired and you know worn out trope but no people still can be creative in that in that that me Lou so yeah well you know Blake what I like to do is take a worn out trope and put it on a train there you go
should we explain that joke or just let it ride I think not a ride when did trained to pass on come out just just a few years ago like okay good let's see do you do song because my listeners if you 2016 2016 it is super
it is so good is so good my my 17 year old son has very refined film tastes he will only watch movies made after the year 2000 when films got good
we really started to take off right we had finally figured out the narrative form we we finally figured out you know gripping storytelling so he he he sticks to that it's not even like I don't watch black and white films it's like don't don't
do you have any with the 90s or the 80s bullshit that's hilarious he must love that multi-falken poster that's he has no idea what that is he's never focused on that ever he's just I when
every in my office he's looking down at his phone so it doesn't matter he doesn't even know what I look like that's so funny as yeah I know the feeling yeah I have I have three kids still living here and one of them is a total hide in her room hardly ever come out you know it's
pretty much pretty much and my wife said you know has Maddie done something today from the choreless and like dude the sun still up you know it's like she has an out of bed yet this maybe contributing to my wife's
but that's a possibility but let's talk about your podcast a little more you know your last three episodes were about a book by D Scott rogo yeah so have you read much else of rogo's work besides the Miracles book yeah I
know the first one I read which I cover in season two is phone calls from the dead nice okay nice and and he what I didn't realize about rogo was that he was kind of a wonder
can't I mean he was he got in as like a fan like in his teens he was like writing fan letters to parapsychologists and then right out of
the college he was publishing books so even though he tragically died I think at age 40 he was young he was young to me yeah so well yeah to me I look back at 40 and I'm like oh my God
yeah 40s when I had to start wearing the reading glasses and I'm like oh 40 sucks but yeah actually mid 50s ain't bad I'm doing I'm having a good time here yeah I kind of feel the same way I'm glad you said that I feel the same way but anyway yeah rogo
wrote a bunch of stuff I haven't read all of it but I read that and there might and I have a few others that I haven't really gotten into yet but but yeah I mean he's a big name for sure he is and his death is tragic and mysterious so it's like if I ever did any kind of a true crime podcast episode which I can't even imagine doing a whole show about based on that the mysterious death of
Scott rogo is definitely something I'd want to cover it is weird it's a very strange story yeah it is I mean sad I don't know and I mean horribly sad it it um they said pretty quickly that I'm talking about like the newspaper reports the next day because he lived out here he was just in the valley yeah he was murdered and um and very quickly the the cops and I think even his mom
mom sort of said this had nothing to do with his work no not at all no no no yeah yeah getting some weird you know paranormal place right right this was a a an active violence I'm not sure if they said it was random I don't know if there was a
opportunity killing like somebody yeah yeah but it it so here so here's the thing about him at that time you know he was gay and it was a time when I I feel like
when a gay person got murdered in the 80s it wasn't given the same serious treatment I think that a regular like a like this into me
whatever a not gay murder would be I don't know like there's nothing good about being murdered about what's a straight murder I mean maybe I'm wrong my assumption is he was not out like no no I'm not I'm not I'm not clear on that you know what
what I like about Scott rogo is he had first of all first of all I was doing research on the ghosts of the water town which was a big case for me that I really ran to ground and I was very happy with all
that work and I researched for decades it haunted me since I was a kid going back to bookshelves and one of the first books I read about ghosts had pictures of the ghosts of the water town
these these faces floating in the water off the side of a ship and I've right I've spent so much time researching that I actually uncovered the uncroped photo I it was amazing it was maybe one of the most important cases I worked on not not not
it's significance to the world but it's significant to me it was personally important to me and I got one of my most important leads because
D. Scott rogo actually cited his sources and had a really good index and a bibliography so I was able to use his material to take me further down the road to getting to the bottom of the case so that's correct
even though we probably would completely disagree on whether it was a real ghost or not I really appreciate his scholarship on that topic you know so I so him being murdered sort of haunted me because so so I
I grew up in a with a fundamentalist family very very religious very conservative and like you reveal in your story my mom was clinically depressed and I spent a lot of my time trying to fix her and she used me as an emotional
crutch and you know it was there was a lot going on there but the spooky books that they really were important to me and I had to hide you know my interest in the paranormal from my parents
because they saw everything is demonology everything was demons you know and so if I was interested in monsters and cryptos of
wild you know that sort of thing they thought that was evil slash demonic slash easily explain through the Bible like it spinning time on it was a waste of time because they already
understood the answers right right so it led me to live this sort of dual life a secret life where you know a lot of the things I was interested in I had to hide for my parents so I'm not gay despite I
think is a Greg proofs Greg proofs says this line he says he says I'm not gay but I make no case for it right right that's me in a nutshell what would it
though though is like I just living this secret life and not wanting your parents to find out what you're into gave me a huge affinity for gay culture like like I was always afraid my parents were going to reject me because I was interested in this stuff and I
hit it for years and years and it was like it was just I was living this secret life so my emotional connection to people who've also had to leave secret lives or live secret lives as always been there as always I was like when I was in the Navy I had so many
friends who were gay and lesbian but they couldn't say it and we are they ever talked about it but you know they could lose their jobs they could get kicked out of the
Navy could be disarmable discharge it was like there was serious consequences to being true to yourself and that's right sucks and so I always when I learned about
these car rogos like I felt this weird affinity from him you know for like living a secret life you know and like being interested
of stuff so yeah I just felt a strong connection even though we were on the opposite side of the belief spectrum monster tall you've been
listening to monster talk the science show about monsters I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolzner you just heard part one of my two part discussion with Richard
Hadam about his new show Richard Hadam's paranormal podcast if you enjoyed hearing his talk then you'll probably enjoy his show check it out in part
two we're going to go on a meandering look at more stuff about skeptics and believers and so much more so hopefully I'll see you in a week
monster talk theme music is by peach stealing monkeys if you're hearing this then you're definitely getting our new feed and we thank you for staying tuned
(dark music)
This has been a Monster House presentation.