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Oh, I've been dying to charge this place.
Oh my god, me too.
I've heard such good things about it.
Welcome to the crime diner.
I'm Cindy.
I'll be cooking for you this evening.
Here are your menus.
Oh, what are you thinking about getting?
I don't know.
Murder with a side of cannibalism.
What about you?
Ooh, that sounds good.
I'm torn between historical mayhem and the social injustice, maybe?
Ooh.
I just want to let you know that each episode comes with dinner, dessert and a specialty
drink chosen by yours truly.
Wine diner story time has had a makeover and we invite you to slide into the booth with
us at the crime diner where each week we will discuss a crime over dinner, drinks and dessert.
See you there.
You guys were back!
And don't worry, we did get more wine.
Well, of course.
[MUSIC]
Hi, Cassie.
Hi, Caitlyn.
Hi, mysterious third person in on the Zoom call.
Hi, Cassie and Caitlyn.
We have a very special collaboration coming at your earholes.
We have missing in the PNW.
Hey, it's Carmita.
Yay!
What do you guys have for me today?
I'm kind of worried.
You guys are ganging up on me.
Yeah, I'll be there.
Yeah, you know, I didn't really think about it, but we sort of are.
Yeah.
Okay, we'll be here.
Yeah.
Before we get into it, I will go through just really quick kind of how we're going to work
it with the collaboration so that everybody knows where they need to go and how it's going
to work because we are going to be dropping pieces of our collaboration between the two
feeds.
And we always release on Tuesdays, unless it's like a special bonus or something like that.
And Carmita actually releases on Wednesday.
So you're going to have to wait probably a whole ass 24 hours before you can get the tarot
reading and kind of the second half of what we worked on.
So, haha, but it'll be worth it.
It'll be worth it.
Yeah.
So, and then we'll obviously link in our show notes so that you're going to know where
to go.
I think we've connected on all of the things now.
So I'll be able to link to you in the socials so they can come and find your Facebook page
and hang out with you there on the socials.
Oh goodness.
Cassie is going to have a really rough time today, but okay, I'm ready.
Let's go hit me.
Are you?
Are you ready?
I'm prepared.
Okay.
She said without a hope, I'm going to hold my ghost crystal.
I would.
If I were you, since I'm not you, I'm going to get started.
This is a case that probably just about everyone in the Pacific Northwest has heard of.
It's been given an absolute insane amount of news coverage, which is usually why this
would be a pass for us.
I just think that, you know, some of them, it's still really interesting to hear the story,
but I like to talk about some cases that maybe we haven't heard of so that I mean, on the
outside chance that we can be, you know, even mildly educational.
This was definitely been covered a lot of times.
Oh, yeah.
Over and over and over and over and over.
I didn't even live in the state when it happened and I heard about it.
Yeah.
It was international.
It might have even been international.
So.
Yeah.
We're not just being snobby hipsters though that want to claim to have known of the band
when insert pretentious phrase here.
We knew them when they were still playing at the Badebadeh, anyhow.
Just like that.
Yeah, just like that.
It's just that oftentimes in those instances, as indie podcasters, we're not sure if we
can add value to the true crime community by covering them number one.
And I'm not an investigative journalist.
I don't have 16, 18 hours every day, seven days a week to be keeping up to date on some
of these type of cases.
So yet, yeah, yeah, yeah.
However, the tugging of my heartstrings is a hell of a motivator because regardless
of being covered repeatedly, this case, and therefore the family still have no answers.
I don't want to do this one.
I mean, they could.
They just can't prove it.
Yeah.
I do think it's one of those on June 4th of 2010, seven year old Kyron disappeared from
Skyline Elementary School in Portland, Oregon.
That morning, he was reportedly dropped off with his science fair project by stepmother
Terri Horman.
Though he was reported absent from his very first class that morning, the family was not made
aware until after he did not arrive home after school.
So we have missed a huge portion of that critical window with a child disappearance.
Yeah.
So not great.
Now before anyone is immediately up in arms, we'll talk about some of the details surrounding
his attendance that might provide some explanation.
Whether it will assuage or simply raise more burning questions is another matter entirely
because I think it's the latter for me.
I feel like that always happens.
You do all this more information.
We just have more questions.
Yeah.
Hopefully you're welcome.
Now for a bit of context about this investigation, just Google largest criminal investigation in
Oregon's history.
Literally, because the combined effort of local and state law enforcement along with the
FBI makes this one a top hit in the search results.
Along with Dayton, we Roy Rogers, which Cassie will remember, he was the Molalla forest killer.
Right.
Who we've talked about in an previous episode and the Rajneeshees, which is a wild case.
And it's possible we could get to that at some point.
It's one of the cases in the true crime world that happened in our state that I'm like,
that doesn't sound real.
I can't know.
It's too weird.
It is.
It's too weird.
I don't think I've heard of it.
So Cassie.
I mean, don't explain it to me now.
I did it until I looked it up.
Literally, I googled that and I see what she was talking about.
And the very first one I'm pretty sure is a wiki of hiring.
Like, wow.
That is insane.
Okay.
Well, yeah.
Yeah, Carmita might be, she might have to come back for that one because apparently
y'all don't know nothing.
I would love to.
We're going to start our own podcast without you.
I'm kidding.
Well, I don't know how to edit, so that's why you have me.
Yeah.
Wait.
Now I'm sweating.
Really?
Why did I invite a guest?
What's happening?
No, keep going.
Keep going.
At the time of his disappearance, Kyron lived with father, Kaine Horman and stepmom Terri.
The Horman household consisted of Terri, Kaine, Kyron, a younger half-sister and an older
step-brother.
Now Desiree is Kyron's biological mother and is very much in his life.
So I only refer to her as his biological mother in this case to hopefully prevent any
confusion given their custodial arrangements.
So I think a lot of times when we say biological parent is sort of has this connotation that it's
maybe somebody who's not involved in the child's life and that's certainly not the case here.
So don't get the wrong idea.
So it's not any sort of a passive-aggressive dig or anything like that.
I just want to be perfectly clear because it does get confusing and I don't want to lead
anyone astray because I'll be honest, it could happen pretty easily in this case.
Oh yeah.
There's multiple people.
Yeah, multiple names.
Yeah, exactly.
So here's the deal.
Up until Kyron was around age two, his parents co-parented in Portland and shared custody.
Desiree began having health issues shortly after giving birth to Kyron.
One and Terri became Kyron's primary caregivers during this time.
When his mother was diagnosed with kidney failure in 2004, she had to move back home with
her parents in Southern Oregon to be sure that she could receive her treatment and have
support day to day.
So that's a tough situation to have to leave your child.
Yeah.
There's no way you're not just feeling the...
You shouldn't feel guilty, but you know you're going to as a mom.
Yeah.
The hard thing about that is they always say take care of yourself before...
If you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your kids, but as a mom, you
have that mindset of just wanting to take care of them.
Of course.
Yeah.
I do think that's the saddest part is your logical brain says, "Yeah, I have to take care of myself,
but you know, do as I say, not as I do, right?"
It's hard because you created that little thing, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know, but I assume you...
I mean, we have to really have that.
We've heard things.
Kaine took full custody at that point because that's what the situation required, not because
Desiree's custody is revoked or anything like that, just to be clear.
And don't worry, there will be plenty to be outraged about.
Just not it.
We're setting this scene and giving you the background, but let's go back actually a
little bit further.
2002 is when Terri met Kaine.
At the time, Kaine is still married to Desiree.
Uh oh.
Hmm.
Correct, because she was about eight months pregnant with Kyron.
Yikes.
Yeah.
Not optimal.
I have no words on it.
Yeah.
I really don't for that.
Seriously, yeah.
This is the only situation where I'm like, you know what?
Maybe that's the story of how I committed violent crime.
I mean, TMI, I got cheated on when I was pregnant with my oldest.
So, I just...
Just awful.
Seriously.
They are doing so much work growing a whole ass human.
For real?
What are you doing?
Yeah.
Just being garbage.
Generally speaking, I say live your best life.
Unless of course, living your best life includes cheating on your wife who is currently eight
months pregnant with your child.
And then in that case, I say, I don't care what kind of life you have because you are a
literal sack of, okay, well, I'll leave it at that.
Yeah, we got it.
Okay.
Sorry, not sorry.
Okay.
I feel like we could very easily be telling a very different story, you know, how it goes.
The one about how a pregnant wife snapped on her cheating husband.
The Lifetime movie that will be made about me.
Hopefully not.
Okay.
Yeah.
Totally kidding, but...
Chris, watch out.
Yeah.
Well, luckily for Kaine, Desiree's handling of the situation.
Makes it more of an example of what happens when cooler heads prevail.
She filed for divorce and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say she probably cited
his invidelity as the cause.
Well, life goes on, right?
Desiree would eventually be remarried to a man named Tony and the couple lived in Medford.
In 2007, Terri and Kaine got married in Kui and they have Kyron's younger half-sister in 2008.
This wasn't Terri's first marriage or child.
I'm going into some of her background because I personally feel that it's very telling as
to her character as we go.
I feel as though some of it is really best to have in mind as we walk through the details
of the disappearance, particularly for anyone who really isn't all that familiar with the
case.
You know, like that one bug out in your yard that's living under the rock.
See, I know of it.
I've heard of it, but I don't know a lot of the details.
Yeah.
Urmigored.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Terri was born in 1970 in grew up in California.
She was adopted by a family that later moved to Oregon.
Her son, James, so this is Kyron's older step-brother, was born in 1994.
In 1995, she was married for a second time.
And yes, I realized I didn't talk about the first dude, but suffice to say he was but a
blip on the radar in this story.
So sorry.
Uh, nameless dude.
Bye.
See, she gets it.
First husband, am I right?
Yeah.
She's had a lot.
Yeah.
I mean, oh boy.
Her second husband adopted her son, James.
By 1998, she begins college courses while she's working as a substitute teacher.
Long story short, she divorces her second husband in
2002, but guess who still is going to have to pay child support to her?
Who?
The second husband.
She adopted the son.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my God.
Y'all.
Okay.
Convinces the second husband to adopt her child with her first husband divorces him and
literally has the audacity to pursue child support from this man.
No, that's a law in Oregon.
It's like a really stupid court system, family court law.
No, I know.
Yeah, whoever you're married to, if you divorce, then have a child, even if that wasn't
the baby daddy or whatever, yeah, they have to pay.
I mean, if they adopted your child, yeah, that's crazy.
Can you unadopt somebody?
I mean, I don't think.
I don't.
In this situation, I just don't know how all of the legality of that works out.
But yikes.
Can we call Elyse real quick?
Can we phone in a right hand?
You don't like life?
I'd like to phone a friend, lawyer friend.
It's important probably for legal reasons.
We should have phoned Elyse after that.
That I state that Terri Horman has never officially been named as a suspect.
And I knew going into the case that that had been true for many years.
And I don't see any indication that that has changed in recent years either.
In fairness, though, I will also say that a judge did call her a "prime suspect"
when ruling on a 2012 civil case that was brought against her in relation to the disappearance.
So, do with that information what you will.
So somebody said it just wasn't official?
Yeah. It's officially documented as having been said.
It doesn't make her an official suspect in terms of what law enforcement is stating.
But do you think that the judge might have pretty good judgment?
Maybe?
I mean, he's a judge.
Literal job.
Yeah.
If you're from the Pacific Northwest, you'll probably be able to picture this clearly.
Kyron Horman, bright eyed and smiling in a CSI t-shirt with his science fair project
on the red eyed tree frog.
Oh, stop it!
That photo was taken the day that he went missing.
So kind of unusual.
Like before he went to school?
It was actually him on the campus.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So this is where you're not really like knowing the details of the case and all of that.
It's going to be really interesting now because you're going to be like, "Wait, what?"
Okay.
And I quote, "Wait, what?
The science fair started at 8 a.m., early reporting on Kyron's disappearance indicated
that there was a 9 a.m. sighting of him, but that was apparently later retracted.
Kyron's home room teacher, Christina Porter, marked him absent, but nothing really sets
off alarm bells as you might expect until much later in the day."
So again, not ideal.
Okay.
Meanwhile, we know that Terri went to two different Fredmeyer stores.
And if they don't have them where you live, these are pretty run of the mill grocery stores.
In other parts of the country, the same parent company owns Kroger grocery stores.
So they generally have all the same items.
So why you'd ever go to two different locations in one day is beyond me.
I guess unless you were having some sort of weird contest about being caught on as much
CCTV footage as possible in a given period of time.
I've never heard of one weird game, but that's like a super niche scavenger hunt, I guess.
Although, Kermit, that I had not heard kind of the theory that you read about, so I didn't
prepare you for this.
But I was going to ask you to just jump in and share that because I think that's really
interesting.
I'm curious what people are going to say about this theory because I just don't know that
I don't know.
So well, actually, I'm looking at it.
It's like, it'll make sense when you start talking to because you didn't have an air
affection.
So the theory that I've seen multiple times is that, yes, it's weird.
She went to two different friend's mirrored stores, but that's because she was trying to
get antibiotics for her daughter.
And one store, pharmacy didn't have it, so she went to the other store.
And that's, I mean, I can kind of see how the mom, how that would make sense, but then
it's just, yeah, you're right.
It was a lot of CCTV footage in these two stores that you don't really actually know where
she was.
Yeah.
The thing that really gets it for me is it's such a short window of time.
And let's put it this way.
We've talked about the pharmacy that I used to go to, okay?
Like, could probably gather up all the times.
We've talked about it and make that like a weird bonus episode.
But have you ever like gone to pick up a prescription and it's out of stock and then you're able
to go and pick it up at a neighboring location in under like 24 hours?
There's just no way.
I just don't buy it.
Like, if the prescription is out of stock at one location and you're able to pick it up
at a totally different location in less than 90 minutes, I don't know, man.
Well, I can try to play devil's eye.
I have to get to that because like, I don't know if it's a legal thing, but working in healthcare,
you can transfer prescriptions if it's the same store.
So like the Fred Meyer should have every single Fred Meyer and Oregon should have and be
able to see that prescription in the system.
So I mean, they would call usually now though, like if my daughter's mental is out of stock,
they call me and they're like, hey, they don't have it at this store like they have it over
here.
So I'm just thinking from the perspective of, you know, they can transfer it quickly.
That piece of it, like I think that's smart too.
And like knowing that about, you know, how healthcare and kind of the prescriptions and
pharmacies work, like that's helpful.
It was 2010 though.
Yeah, right?
Yeah, that's true.
And I also think the slow down and like why it would take longer is just because like they
have to have an actual pharmacist prepare it.
So that's where I'm like, I don't know.
I'm still on the fence though.
Like maybe that's questionable.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
And I just learned about it.
I was today, years old when I learned about it.
So well, I was going to say like what if she went there for lettuce?
And they didn't have any lettuce.
So she went to the other one.
She was really wanted lettuce.
Yeah, nobody wants lettuce that badly.
What do you know what?
We have to cook a dinner.
No, they're out of something.
But well, better not be lettuce because if I was making a salad and they're out of lettuce,
guess we haven't a salad.
It was just, you know, the tail or cabbage or spinach.
I'm just saying like we all probably should eat a lot of greens, but if they're out,
then so am I, am I?
Maybe it was her favorite type of cheeto.
They didn't have it.
Yeah.
Now it's starting to sound more feasible.
Okay.
That's a relatable example.
Okay.
My energy drinks.
Yeah.
My energy drinks are only after in stores.
Oh, man.
All that said between 1010 and 1139 AM, Terri's whereabouts are unconfirmed.
So that's like an hour and a half window.
She claimed to be driving rural roads, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, I hate
saying that word too.
I hate it.
She claimed to be driving rural roads trying to soothe her daughter who had an ear infection
during that time window.
And I thought the driving thing was for making them fall asleep, but what do I know?
Kermitha, thoughts?
I, I mean, yeah, it's very like wide known.
I guess you can call it old-wife so, but yeah, you drive around the car and like soothe
the baby.
I don't know.
I mean, I think if she would have said to soothe her daughter to go to sleep, like, I
can see how it can sick.
Like if my kids are sick or whatever, they fall asleep and driving around, they always fall
asleep in the car, especially my five-year-old.
Yeah.
So I think if she would have said like, you know, it wasn't for the infection, even though
it kind of was, it was for her to fall asleep.
So she's because she's going through this ear infection that, I mean, she's a baby,
so it hurts though.
Yeah.
I just had a hard time picturing exactly how driving around was,
soothing for the ear infection.
Yeah, awesome.
It's gonna be like, wouldn't that make, if you're on rural, rural, if you're on those rural
streets, wouldn't it be like up and down and like, it would make your ears pop maybe,
right?
Or is that not how the whole situation like, the areas where she was maybe.
Yeah.
And you don't have to be.
I mean, you don't have to be.
Yeah.
And when you need to be necessarily approaching an elevation, you just have to have a change
in elevation.
That's really like what does it with the ear popping?
That would make it, when you have the ear infection, though, that makes it her worse.
Yeah.
That's what I'm thinking, yeah.
So I feel like that, that wouldn't be beneficial, but…
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't have children, so.
I mean, but you do understand how things work.
Yeah.
So there's that.
11:39 is when she checked in at her gym, a 24 hour fitness, roughly 11 miles away from
the last grocery store that she was seen at.
So again, it's another spot where we know for sure, like she can be documented, verified,
as having been there at that specific time.
Yeah, but did anybody like confirm the last time she was in the gym?
You see that, like, is it even possible to get to that thing 11 miles away?
You know what?
That's kind of what I was thinking.
I'm like, I want to do this drive and figure out, like, okay, what time did she leave the
second Fred Meyers?
Yeah, exactly.
And you would think if it's CCTV footage, you would have that time.
Yeah.
I've not seen it released anywhere, but I feel like that's a really valid point.
Where's the baby while she's at the gym?
They are.
So she actually, yeah, the-
With the ear infection?
Right?
That is a really good point.
And a lot of people talk about that.
Okay.
Yeah, she just takes her to the daycare inside of the gym.
Okay.
Not even her own daycare.
Exactly.
And that ear infection is one of her excuses of why she leaves the gym.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
And she's not- she wants to like use mom excuses, right?
But she's not mom in it.
Like not moming the momness, you know?
Yeah.
Like you would think maybe your baby would want to go to like a family member or something
where they're more comfortable and they can sleep in-
Or just like some random stranger.
Just take your child home and take care of her.
I can feel more like we need to go to the gym, give it to like the grandma or something.
Yeah.
I'm with you.
I felt like that was really shady.
Yeah.
Possibly the most shady thing, like kind of in that whole sequence so far.
What time of year was this?
Did you say the date?
Yeah, June 4th.
June 4th, right?
Not even like this is a New Year's resolution.
It's January.
We got to get to the gym.
No, she was very into physical fitness.
Yeah.
So that was something that was like a real priority to her.
But look at that though.
Cassie is just like she's teeing up and then she's like, "Bale."
You're out of here.
You're like an umpire today.
I can't trust those people.
When they're all into physical fitness, I can't trust you.
Something's wrong with you.
You're staying honest about your gym routine, but what else you got that you're lying about?
Am I right?
So what you're saying though is it could have been lettuce at the store.
Mother of Pearl.
Yeah, it could have been.
Probably was.
This trifling gym going, let it sit in.
Waltman.
Oh boy.
Around 12.45 or 1 o'clock, somewhere in that window, she logged in to Facebook after arriving back at home,
which was apparently fairly typical for her day to day activity.
So nothing weird about that.
We just kind of have specific times because it's online.
At 121, she posts the now infamous photo of Kyron from the science fair.
No.
Again, apparently this was not unusual, but it is a bit haunting in hindsight.
Yeah.
Because she was known to post a lot of photos of really any of the kids, but...
That's just the one they chose to use because it was supposedly the last photo.
Right.
And it's fucking adorable.
So cute.
It really is.
I think that's a big part of why people really felt so strongly about this case.
Because it's just like you just look at it and he just looks like such a baby.
Just...
That's pretty much a prairie.
I know.
I think that's what does it for me.
And then he looks a lot, a lot like my brother at that age in that photo.
That freaks me the actual fuck out.
So... that's where I come in on that issue.
Just reminds me of my brother, so...
At 3:30, Kaine, who had been working from home that day, and Terri walked to Kyron's bus stop.
The bus driver told them that Kyron had not boarded the bus and suggested they call the school.
The school secretary Susan Hall informed them that he had been marked absent for the day.
No one called the parents about Kyron's absence because...
Terri had stated he had a medical or dental appointment.
She claimed to have mixed up the dates.
A lot was made about the school being partly responsible for Kyron not being reported missing sooner.
And here's my take. I know my high school sent out automated messages.
Also Cassie's high school.
I was just being really possessive of our high school there for a second.
It's fine. I don't want it. You can have it.
I feel like not even just high school, like all like elementary school and everything they would call.
But I feel like the thing about the automated messages is that...
I don't think that parents could really count on those being perfectly timely in every case.
I think just generally went out...
It's like automated, like a Robo email.
Yes.
And then...
There's something that they do because I've gotten those calls like...
When my kids, I knew my kids were dropped off late.
But if you're not marked in class at a certain time, that automatically goes to the office.
And even if you show up after that, so they could possibly still mark you absent when you're really there.
Yeah.
I mean, the other thing that is a consideration for me, because I know that's kind of a common thing now where...
We're going to call the parents. We're going to notify the parents in some form or fashion when their kid is absent.
I know that's a typical thing now, but ultimately with budget cuts, increased class sizes,
and all of the staffing shortages, I'm just not sure that most parents would be reasonable in holding too high of an expectation about receiving a call for any and every absence.
Like you said, I mean, there can be mistakes where they just show up late and then they're still being shown as absent all day.
Yeah.
I've had that happen. Like my bonus in middle school was like, I know he was late.
He didn't get dropped off to like 9:30 or 10 and then the...
I know they have an automated thing at like 11 that goes out and it's a call and it just...
It's weird too. It's like, your child, blah, blah, blah, has been marked absent for school.
Like it's very robotic.
There's this like, uh, okay.
Is this kind of...
I just think that's especially true given what seems like could be an obvious attempt on Terri's part to cause confusion about Kyron's attendance.
No way. Now though, like, I really don't want to go for bed. Like I don't want to, but...
Yeah.
So, in case actual change so many things with schools in Oregon, especially in Portland because they added security, they added this little like...
You got to have a badge to get in or you got to be let in by a button.
There's... they do a lot more calls and stuff like that.
So this case totally...
And again, I think it's... Oh damn, I asked 2023.
I was going to keep forgetting 2023.
But this is in 2010.
So, you're a lot different.
Yeah. Absolutely.
The school secretary placed a call to 911 to report Kyron's disappearance at 3.46pm.
So, this is kind of a weird little detail just because...
Obviously, you've got a phone if you're on the phone with your kid's school, right?
And Terri is reported to have said, you know, basically asked the secretary, "Can you call 911 to report him missing?"
Huh. What?
Yeah, I don't know. I didn't call 911 before this.
Was there a reason like she had to stay on the phone with the school or...
Did he not have another phone?
Like, really good questions. Not a lot of answers on that.
I could understand maybe you're not thinking clearly if you're panicking and you're just like,
"Somebody call 911, you know what I mean?"
Yeah. I mean, if this was the only detail that didn't quite add up, maybe.
Yeah.
So they weren't at the school.
Like, Terri and Kaine were at the school. They called the school.
Because I thought at some point they did go to the school.
They do show up, I believe, somewhere at the school, but I believe it's like as part of the search.
Gotcha.
Yeah. I don't know that I have as like a specific time stamp for that as we go on.
Yeah.
But I don't know, y'all. I'm just like very far past the point of giving...
Well, they were together too.
Like, if he called and they were together at the bus stop, he's there.
He could have, when she's freaking out, he could have called.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I just feel like is there somebody that is going to know your child better?
I just, I don't know.
Like, I would just, I want to take charge of that.
Even if I'm freaking out, which of course you're freaking out.
Yeah.
But the nurse is not going to know anything.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
And then you, there's, it's not on, on, on, on, or whatever to have multiple 911 calls come in for something.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's very common to have multiple 911 calls like when you're reporting someone missing,
but that happens with a ton of different crimes and like, you know, so I don't know.
That's a really good point. By 5.30 p.m., a flash alert about his disappearance was sent out to Portland area public school parents.
By then, sargent Lee Gawson was alerting the county on call coordinator for search and rescue.
And that's Sergeant Travis Goldberg, at this time at least, to initiate a search.
The sheriff also alerted the FBI around this time.
Like they went zero to FBI.
Wow.
Okay.
Is that, is that usual?
Or is that common?
I mean, kids not even been missing for, well, I guess the kids missing all day.
Yeah.
And the kids missing all day, we've only known that he's missing for like 90 minutes.
Yeah.
So they jump like they are going, they are not driving 120 on the Audubon.
They are on Elon's rocket.
I wonder to about.
Did they take because for me.
I mean, not even two hours there was an alert that went out to the news.
So is that because I mean, one honestly is that because he was white or is that because the school called 911, like if the parents would have called 911, maybe.
I mean, because everybody told them they have to wait 24 hours to report someone missing.
Mm-hmm.
So I mean, I guess that's where you can kind of play Devils advocate a little bit that like maybe this was taken so much more seriously because.
It was like a call placed on behalf of the school.
I mean, the whiteness being a factor, you're getting zero argument from like 90% of people I would assume.
That plays a part.
I feel like.
Obviously.
Yeah.
There's a lot of evidence that it does.
Because I mean, I've never heard of this happening in.
You know, I just.
Well, the one episode I was just listening to of yours.
It's a recent one.
Oh my gosh.
I can't remember the little boy's name.
It's the little boy with the hair.
Lucian.
Oh, yeah, Lucian.
Yeah.
And that one was really.
I.
I can see now now that we know he's been found in everything.
I can see how that could happen.
But that's a whole other thing that I'm going to get into on my podcast is like they have a missing person alert for indigenous.
And it's supposed to be similar to an amber alert, but it's like the qualifications for it are ridiculous.
And I think I talked about that in my what happened with going on a Yakima episode.
The qualifications for it is just it makes no sense.
And actually speaking of amber alerts, do you know if amber alert was put out for Kyrann?
I probably have that here in my notes.
If if I found a record of it, I'm not sure I can't remember off the top of my head.
I think maybe the flash alert on the news channels could have been like even possibly better than the amber alert.
If you think about it.
Search teams arrived at Skyline Elementary just after 8 p.m.
Kyron's photo was sent out to local news outlets and then 8:25 searches began.
So again, this is just one of those things where it's kind of early days of like Facebook being.
I think my space went away in like 2009.
Yeah, I mean, 2010, 2011, 2012.
I feel like they did a lot of popularity.
Yeah, it's the first time that we're seeing in maybe disappearances and other types of crime.
Just average people that are actually using Facebook.
And it's kind of integrated in their lives.
And we know what Terri's social media habits were.
I mean, there's not a lot of cases.
This is kind of the dividing line, right?
Like in this era prior to 2010, probably we'd have no idea what your habits were online.
A little bit different going forward.
Additional searchers with mountain wave emergency communications arrived at the school about an hour later to assist in the search efforts.
So it's like, okay, one search party isn't enough.
We got lots of people out here.
We're going to call in more.
Okay, by 10.40 p.m., the indoor search of school property was complete and the hormone home had also been searched.
So they've been search search search in all night long.
Then 10:44 911 receives a tip from a caller indicating that the train tunnel near the elementary school should be searched,
which is like immediately I have chills because what?
But it's not as bad as you think it is.
Okay, the caller indicated that kids were often known to play down there.
And they just thought like, hey, did anybody think about this?
Like, I just want to make sure they know any surrounding areas that they should be checking out.
So it was a good, I mean, I think that was kind of just like a good Samaritan thing.
But immediately I was like, oh, great.
So now they're going to go to this tunnel and find little Kyron.
No, not good.
Day one of Kyron being missing came to a close without any answers.
In the early hours of the following morning, Pacific Northwest search and rescue group was called in to help as well.
I think that it's probably nearly always a good call to get whatever additional assistance as well as fresh eyes as is available, especially after spending the whole night to know avail.
But like, how many more search and rescue groups do we even have like importantly?
I mean, come right.
It's just, it's a lot.
And it's one of those cases where it just makes you go like, great.
If we could just like a tenth of this on, you know, some of those ones where you insist that they're just run away, that'd be, that'd be cool.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, information regarding Kyron's disappearance is forwarded to the associated press and as far away as the UK.
Wow.
It's international in less than 24 hours.
That's crazy.
Which kind of makes me think, why do they do that?
Like, did they think he was going to get out of the country somehow?
Right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's just certain things about how this case was handled where it does make you wonder what pieces of information because you know there's always information that they're holding back.
Yep.
Kind of makes you wonder.
Help find my child.net was creating a page for Kyron.
So he's literally already got a whip page.
Wow.
In another country.
Wow.
Later that same day, local police established an official tip line before holding a press conference at noon.
So lots of goons on.
It was at this time that law enforcement attempted to reassure the public through this announcement by confirming Kyron was still a missing person's case rather than any type of criminal investigation.
So the wording on that's pretty important, but they're basically just trying to reassure the public.
Like, it's going to be okay. We're still assuming we're going to find him alive.
This is not a murder investigation yet.
Okay.
This is not a homicide that we're investigating by the evening of June 5th, just one day after going missing.
It was announced at a news conference that the National Guard and FBI had joined the search efforts for Kyron.
So that's when the public becomes aware of their involvement.
The grid search near Skyline Elementary School continued as well.
Before the day came to a close, the FBI page was created.
So multiple pages about Kyron by day two.
Wow.
Yeah. All I can say is wow.
I know.
This is happening really fast.
It really is.
It really is. This is one of the early cases that I recall when I was younger where social media really became an important piece of the puzzle.
And it's definitely one of those ones, like I said, I mean, for me, I look at the picture of him and I think it my little brother.
That's unique to me, but there's a lot about this case that I think for a lot of people, it forms like a cemented image and feeling and all that in your mind.
Yeah.
In fact, another important announcement would be shared by Terri on Facebook just before 9am on the very next day Sunday, June 6th.
She had ordered a thousand missing persons, flyers.
Which to me, the fact that you're already like ordering these flyers is it's great, but how do you know that they weren't going to find him overnight?
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I mean, let's just get on it just in case.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess you can kind of play that either way, right?
Yeah.
Which I hate about every detail of this fucking case.
Great suggestion.
This actually was a write-in suggestion, so.
For me, I've been suggesting it.
Oh, well, yeah, a listener suggested it.
Do you know who can you say who?
I'd have to go back to the Google sheet to find out.
You know who you were.
Is a creepy person number 567?
Meanwhile, the FBI was not fucking around because that's not what the F stands for.
I mean, depends on who you ask, but whatever.
Anyways, they brought in a Quantico profiler that morning as well.
Shit.
Yeah.
I know I was like, Spencer Reid, right?
What the hell is that?
What's the Quantico profiler?
So have you ever seen criminal minds?
Yes.
It's one of those guys.
Why the hell would that be needed?
They do that a lot in the cases that the FBI becomes involved in.
And then they're like, what do you think about the FBI?
All four parents, both biological and step parents,
appeared in a news conference on the sixth as well.
The Portland Public School District Superintendent, Carol Smith,
held a news conference at 330 on the sixth,
regarding steps the district was taking in terms of student safety
and school security in the wake of this incident.
So what Carmita said?
Sunday night, the sheriff escalated Kyron's case
to a missing endangered child.
So I'm not really sure what the difference is,
but they were like, yeah, it's more seriouser.
Okay.
Yeah, that's weird.
Yeah, I don't know.
Is it like the amount of time that's gone by or?
I don't know. I'm not really sure what they base that classification on.
So I mean, that might be something to do a little bit,
a bit of a side goug about.
Less than a week later, on June 11th,
the search expanded to Savvy Island,
where it would continue until June 13th.
Once that search had concluded,
the sheriff held a press conference announcing that they would be shifting
to a criminal investigation.
No.
They also indicated that there was interest in any video footage
taken around several roads near Skyline on the date of Kyron's disappearance.
They even went so far as to send divers into the water at Sauvie's Island
in the channel north of the bridge the following day.
Do you think they got like a tip or something they found something that?
I'm not sure. You wouldn't know, but.
I think they got a tip.
They tried to work, right?
Yeah, it wasn't tip and then there was a violation that
Terri's cell phone,
pinged like the cell phone tower ping.
Yeah. I mean, I do know that there were some things they could document based on
her cell phone records.
Because they really ultimately, of course, in this case, nothing was recovered
from this search, right?
I didn't go into the details on that because it doesn't really add to anything.
We didn't find anything probative out there on Sauvie Island.
They spent a lot of time out there.
Anything that they maybe would have found that was probative, assuming they did,
they're holding it back at the very least.
So I don't know, it's a tough one.
Divers were also sent out to search a pond near the Horman home.
Oh, which is...
That's like, yeah, I don't like that.
Yeah.
It wasn't until right around the last day of school, June 15th, that a photo of glasses,
similar to those that Kyron wore, was released.
There's been no small amount of speculation surrounding these glasses.
Speculation about...spectacles.
Speculation?
Yeah.
Yeah, spectacle speculation.
Some believe they just wanted to give the public more information.
But others felt it was perhaps a not-so-subtle way of indicating that Kyron's glasses had been found.
Oh!
The latter, since they also released a computer-generated photo of Kyron without the glasses.
I don't remember it.
Yeah, I remember it.
I think I remember seeing that one.
It's pretty spooky.
I mean, just the fact that you're showing the glasses, right?
While assuming that Kyron still has his glasses, you'll recognize him better than the glasses.
Why do I need to see a picture of the glasses?
Yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah, that's weird.
Pure speculation.
But they never said that they were found or anything.
No. They have not confirmed if that's the case.
They have not denied.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, the one thing that you could argue is that, you know, they really wanted to make sure you had every possible recent detail, those types of things.
I mean, except then there's the fact that they literally had a photo taken the actual day of his disappearance.
So I think it's a relatively safe assumption that, like, you know, they're not going to say it, but they found the glasses.
Oh.
Because they have the most recent photo and he was wearing the glasses.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I actually continued to dig if I could see any additional information about his glasses and whether they did actually confirm at some point, whether, you know, maybe they were recovered and they didn't initially share with the public.
But now we know that.
No dice.
So I don't know.
If anybody happens to have more information on that, let us know.
I mean, I couldn't find it.
I went deep.
Yeah.
We were just kidding earlier about all the stuff that was like, you know, less than glowing.
It's like just, you know, come chat with us here.
Sure, that'll totally happen.
Also on June the 15th, 30 billboards related to Kyron's disappearance went up throughout the Portland metro area and a vigil was held.
30 big ass billboards.
Mm-hmm.
That's expensive.
Yeah.
Like a couple grand, I think it's photo billboarded up.
I mean, back then.
Yeah.
I mean, back then, I think it was a couple grand.
I don't even know what it would be now, but.
Who paid for that?
I.
Jack Spares, but they are not going to say that.
Um, actually, I remember reading that there was, gosh, and I might not be remembering everything totally accurately.
I didn't include it as I recall because they like didn't share the name of the person.
It just felt weird.
Um, but I think some of them were donated by somebody who owned like a billboard company.
But I mean, whether or not that's true.
That's another one of those things where sometimes I'm like, this could add some spice, but I also don't know like how accurate that is.
So.
Okay.
So, I mean, the detail that I find really interesting is the vigil.
Just because it's been like two weeks, right?
But it's almost immediately after they say that like they're turning this to a criminal investigation.
Wow.
So I mean, yeah, it's clear everybody knows what that means, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, because a lot of people think vigils are for people who died rather than people get kidnapped.
Was that what people were like treating the vigil as is like, he passed or just like maybe like a hopeful thing?
I'm sure it was a mixture at this point because it's still very fresh.
I'm sure that some people are attending saying like we should, you know, still have, you know, hope that he's alive and he'll be found and.
And then some people were like, look, we all know how this is probably going to go.
Photos of a truck similar to the one that Terri had driven Kyron to school in were released alongside photos of Terri and Kyron on a flyer.
But law enforcement insisted that was approved by the family.
And that it had not been intended to imply any guilt only provide people with as much information about the case as possible in a very succinct manner.
And if that was their true aim, it sure did backfire.
I mean, at least in one respect.
Because people started to really feel differently about Terri.
Why would they need to release her what she looks like in her car?
That's a real good question, Cassie. Why would they? Why would they release pictures of a truck that's not hers?
I mean, it was the vehicle he was last seen in.
I think it points to a shift in mentality about Terri's potential guilt.
Why isn't the truck in Kaine's name?
Yeah, it's Kaine's truck.
But like, just picture it's like, this is the mom who like now all of a sudden, I mean stepmom, it's a stepmom.
Everybody is going to like already be suspecting because when a kid goes missing, you know, it's step parents.
Right. And then the truck and you're like, hmm, yeah, that doesn't it looks like basically like,
like a wanted poster. You know what I mean?
Like look for these all together that type of thing.
Exactly.
Huh.
And that's what they meant to do apparently.
Okay.
So maybe they know something we don't.
A couple of weeks later on Saturday, June 26th at 5:17 p.m., a 911 call initially classified as a threat call came in from the hormone home, which I would be interested to learn more about the classification of 911 calls.
That's real interesting.
On July 5, 1939, p.m., a second call classified as a custody issue call was also made.
This is the date that Kane took the couple's young daughter and moved out of the house.
What?
By June 28th, he had filed for divorce.
No.
Really?
I guess worse.
Oh, it does. Here's the thing is this is another one of those situations where you could say, of course they're going to have issues, you know, there is no greater stress that you could put on a marriage then, like losing a child or having a child go missing.
Yeah.
But eventually if you think your spouse is responsible.
Yeah, and he took the daughter and she let like she let him take her.
So I mean, 911 was called that second time and it was classified as a custody issue.
How much she let anybody do anything?
Well, I think that's also two because it's not they're married.
So it's not like he kidnapped the baby.
I mean, you can as a custodial parent technically still kidnap your child, but that's neither, you know, we won't even go there.
Terri would claim when questioned by reporters that Kaine and her daughter had not moved out of the house and that the claims regarding the divorce filing were also false.
Right.
So I'm assuming since you're adding it in your notes, that is probably true.
Yeah, there's like public.
I mean, kindness.
Kind of.
Yeah.
Kaine's divorce petition was granted and Terri was allowed supervised visitation of their daughter.
Wow.
So interesting little factoids there.
So you can see based on the timeline of events, how the tables swiftly began to turn against Terri.
These records were sealed.
Why?
Great question.
I bet you the contents of the records could tell you why they wanted to have them sealed.
Right.
That same date, June 28th, the Sheriff's Office releases a statement from the other three parents, but did not include Terri's name.
Terri's failure of two polygraphs related to Kyron's disappearance would also become public knowledge.
What?
So again, things are being set.
Even if it's, you know, not an official announcement focusing specifically on certain details, there's some you get it in there because people are picking up on what's missing.
You're reading between the lines specifically that something is up.
Yeah.
How do you fail to polygraph tests?
It's a really good question.
I thought that they were supposed to be really easy to fake and pass.
Right.
That's what I have heard.
Now, obviously, I think pretty much every true crime podcaster out there has probably told you how polygraphs are bullshit.
Not admissible or I mean, at the exactly at the very least, they're not actual evidence.
Yeah.
But still necessarily.
It wasn't until Sunday, July 4th that the rollercoaster really picked up speed again.
The Oregonian reporter, Maxine Burstein, revealed that a landscaper that had worked for the Hormann family shared with her that he had been solicited by Terry in a murder for higher plot.
What?
Yolp.
For who did he say who?
Oh boy.
Yeah.
The man and most importantly, landscaper, okay, this title is important.
In question is Rudolfo Sanchez.
He had worked at the family home.
So he did in fact, no Terri, I mean the whole family.
In a deposition, he testified that this had taken place in January of 2010.
Shit.
That was her new resolution.
They're right.
Right?
Yeah, it's not the gym.
Oh damn.
Investigators tried to get a recorded confession for this alleged crime, but they were unable to substantiate the story and no legal action was taken against Terri.
Okay.
So do you want to know who?
Yeah.
None other than Kaine, of course.
Right?
Yeah.
She's out here, Nancy Brophy.
God.
She's got some balls to just walk up to her landscaper and be like, hey, I want to kill somebody for me.
Yeah.
I couldn't have worked with that.
But I think that's speculation too.
Well, here's the thing.
What's crazy is that this was not the only murder for higher plot Terri has been connected to over the years.
Well, now I'm not surprised.
We just literally don't have time for that shit because it doesn't pertain to the case at all, but it was pretty wild to read about.
So I'm going to link to that directly in the show notes.
Had you heard about that, Carmita?
No.
Yeah.
Do you get into the affair?
Which one?
The landscaper?
Yeah.
Everyone in the neighborhood?
That's fair.
Yeah.
There's like her marriage to Kaine started as an affair.
I mean, it's a lot.
Yeah.
Everybody in this story be fucking pretty much.
Yeah.
By mid-July, Terri had agreed to vacate the home and moved back to Roseburg to live at her parents home.
Still police continued applying pressure to a small circle of Terri's friends, including her bestie, Dee Dee.
Dee Dee.
Yeah, she's shiny.
She's shiny.
You know, here's the thing.
I find, Dee Dee's tend to be.
I don't know any Dee Dee's.
I don't know.
I don't know, but I think she was, um, Gypsy Rose's mom's name as well, isn't it?
Was it?
I don't fucking know.
She's like, I don't watch that kind of shit.
I only talk about this shit with you.
I did watch the documentary in the movie or show they made about it.
But I don't remember the...
Okay.
I was going to say so literally you do.
You'll lie.
Yeah.
Sorry, Dee Dee's, if you're listening.
Sorry, not sorry.
The previous week they had even searched her home.
Dee Dee's home.
Terri's best friend.
Okay.
Huh.
Interesting.
Guys, do the...
Huh.
With me.
Huh.
They obviously had a reason too.
They don't just give warrants out for no reason.
Yeah.
Well, some interesting associations.
You see my association?
Hey, I will.
It's a pretty strong association.
Some interesting details came to light.
On the date of Kyron's disappearance at 11.30 a.m.,
she left her gardening duties for approximately 90 minutes.
Huh.
About 90 minutes is the amount of time that is unaccounted for in Terri's morning as well.
Yeah.
I remember you saying that.
Huh.
She hadn't been present when calls came into the home.
One was from another employee that was working at the home and the other was from the homeowner.
So she's literally at her job, her landscaping job.
Why are there so many landscapers being so shady?
Yeah.
I was just like, what is going on?
Dee Dee was also rumored to have helped Terri procure an untraceable cell phone.
Basically just a burner phone.
Just like a cheap ass phone.
Right.
I have a follow up questions for Dee Dee.
But let's circle back to the landscaper murder for higher plot.
Apparently Kaine didn't know that they had a landscaper.
I run burgundy.
Is he just gone all day and she's like, I did all the gardening and he's like, OK.
No, I thought he worked for home.
Uh-huh.
Oh.
I mean, he did that day.
I don't know if he did every day.
But here's just weirdness, weirdness, OK.
Terri's son was supposed to be responsible for the maintenance and all of like the yard work around the property.
Oh.
Seems like it could have been a big job for a teenager.
But at any rate, before he drifted too far from our minds, I wanted to be sure to tell you all to put a pin in this whole landscaping debacle that seems to have materialized.
Kaine doesn't know that they have a landscaper.
The landscaper is supposed to be Terri's son.
Well, I heard they said that because they had like acres of property.
Like, how is a teenage boy going to get it take care of acres of property?
Yeah.
I don't know that it was like multiple acres.
I think it may have been like a, you know, like half-acre lot.
I don't, I don't remember if I made a note specifically of like the size of the property.
I think regardless, that's kind of a lot to just ask of like, you know, one teenage kid.
But what do I know?
Huh.
Anyway, Terri's BFFDD was also questioned by a grand jury.
'Cause it turns out I wasn't the only one with follow-up questions for DB.
But oddly, she would plead the fifth fairly frequently in a way that honestly seems pretty suspicious.
She does so even when they're super basic questions, she should be able to respond to like whether she or Terri had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance.
She can't just say no.
Girl, like pleading the fifth in that situation actually confirms your guilt.
Oh my god.
To me.
Yeah.
Not a doctor, not a lawyer, but did she have a lawyer like telling her?
I just think that.
I don't know who is advising someone to plead the fifth in that case.
We know Terri gets a lawyer, but I don't know about this.
Terri does.
Yeah.
And then, Terri, are you okay?
It wouldn't be until nearly two years to the date after Kyron's disappearance that his mother Desiree would bring a lawsuit in civil court.
Claiming Terri was responsible for Kyron's disappearance and presumed demise.
She sought $10 million in damages, but eventually dropped the lawsuit stating she didn't want it to interfere with the police investigation in any way.
Okay.
Just interesting because they had to have reached out to her to say that there was anything worth a damn going on in the case for her to be willing to do that.
I would think.
But now it's been how many fucking years on there's still nothing happening.
I know.
A couple of years further down the line in 2014, Terri attempted to change her name to Claire Stella Sullivan.
Nice choice.
That's such a name.
Delay!
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, it's just weird to me because maybe Desiree is just like, I should drop the lawsuit like regardless of whether or not they have anything.
Because even if it's 10 years down the line, I don't want it to jeopardize the actual criminal case.
I don't know.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Clearly, Terri was thinking about other stuff.
Like, what kind of a beer should I rebrand myself as?
Oh my gosh.
Did she actually change her name?
I believe that request was denied.
It was denied by the judge.
Good.
That was months prior to Terri finding work in an assisted living facility in December of 2014, which seems like a great job opportunity for someone who may have been involved in the disappearance of a child.
Put her in charge of vulnerable people like the elderly.
Yeah.
I don't like that.
Cool.
She quit in 2015.
And then there was more drama with the people claiming to be adults in Kyron's life.
So to be clear, we're just dragging Terri on that account right now.
Anyway, in August 2015, Terri is charged with a theft of her male roommate's gun.
This may have been a boyfriend, but who really cares about the details of her love life, unless they somehow are materially relevant and help bring Kyron home?
Am I right?
Right.
Literally couldn't care.
Hopefully she doesn't do her murder plot for any of her.
She was going by Terry molten at this time.
Molten is like, I can't like lava.
I think of like molting like animals that molt.
Gross.
Anyhow, she had previously moved away from Portland by this time and this man has stated he was unaware of her proximity to the sketchy situation around Kyron's disappearance.
Oh, you mean she didn't tell him?
Right.
I know.
Weird, right?
I don't know.
Yeah, how did you not?
Yeah.
There's people in the UK creating websites, but you know, he just missed that memo.
I mean, I guess I don't know what she looks like.
Yeah.
You could mention it.
I mean, in like in the 2010 to the 2015, those, those years, there was not a lot of people that did not know what this woman looked like.
I will say that.
She's not pretty.
Also, I would say that too.
Carmita beat me to it.
You clever girl.
I was like, damn it.
And I'm mad she said it first.
Oh, my brain.
You can't have all the fun.
I know.
Desiree and her many supporters hung flyers in the new area where Terri lived so that people in the community would be aware of her past.
And also because she's a savage.
And I love it.
I love it.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Terry failed to appear in court initially in connection to the gun theft because that is what makes it better.
My committed crime and then don't even show up in court.
That's what, that's what you should do.
But eventually it was resolved in 2017.
Again, I rolled whatever Terri.
Kyron Horman was born September 9th of 2002 and has been missing since June 4th of 2010.
It's an incredibly sad story but what is wild is that there is a connection to a case of two other missing children.
Remember Rudolfo?
Landscaper.
Allegedly of the Horman household.
Okay.
Well, that's actually why we've teamed up with Missing in the PNW.
Oh.
With Carmita to tell you a bit more.
Okay.
Just remember you guys.
We're going to link in the show notes so that you can find Missing in the PNW, the lovely Carmita's episode.
The second half.
These are like a combined deal.
You got to go and check out both.
Yes.
And her half will have the tarot reading in it.
So you definitely want to check it out.
It was a really good one.
Holy shit.
Yeah.
Cause we're coming you from the future.
We already did it and we know.
Yeah.
Have a creepy day.
And remember have fun, but be safe.
Please.
For the love of God.
Peace it.
And why guys and trips.
Yeah.
So for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest.
Yes.
We would love to read them on the pod.
Yes.
We will read them out loud.
Not just in our heads.
Yes.
They don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest.
If you would like to share, email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com.
It's all spelled out.
No special characters.
Super duper easy peasy.
Follow us on Instagram and Facebook.
Same thing is the email @pnwhauntsandhomicides all spelled out. pnwhauntsandhomicides.com
No special characters.
Please also rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to.
And check out our stories on social media because our meme game is hot.
Agreed.
And if you agree, like Caitlyn, you can also find us on Patreon and support the show.
Bitchin.
[laughs]
[music]
What was that?
Is that are you guys social butterflies?
I can't even talk now.
She was like, "Are you guys social butt?"
[laughs]
But.
We just made some butt jokes in our last episode.